Difference between Catholic and Protestant.

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atpollard

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the word immersion is not but the word sprinkle is
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
βαπτίζω; [imperfect ἐβάπτιζον]; future βαπτίσω; 1 aorist ἐβάπτισα; passive [present βαπτίζομαι]; imperfect ἐβαπτιζόμην; perfect participle βεβαπτισμένος; 1 aorist ἐβαπτίσθην; 1 future βαπτισθήσομαι; 1 aorist middle ἐβαπτισάμην; (frequently [?] from βάπτω, like βαλλίζω from βάλλω); here and there in Plato, Polybius, Diodorus, Strabo, Josephus, Plutarch, others.

  1. properly, to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge (of vessels sunk, Polybius 1, 51, 6; 8, 8, 4; of animals, Diodorus 1, 36).
  2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water; in the middle and the 1 aorist passive to wash oneself, bathe; so Mark 7:4 [where WH text ῥαντίσωνται]; Luke 11:38 (2 Kings 5:14 ἐβαπτίσατο ἐν τῷ Ἰορδάνῃ, for טָבַל; Sir. 31:30 (Sir. 34:30); Judith 12:7)
  3. metaphorically, to overwhelm, as ἰδιώτας ταῖς ἐισφοραῖς, Diodorus 1, 73; ὀφλήμασι, Plutarch, Galba 21; τῇ συμφορᾷ βεβαπτισμένος, Heliodorus Aeth. 2, 3; and alone, to inflict great and abounding calamities on one: ἐβάπτισαν τὴν πόλιν, Josephus, b. j. 4, 3, 3; ἡ ἀνομία με βαπτίζει, Isaiah 21:4 Sept. hence, βαπτίζεσθαι βάπτισμα (cf. Winers Grammar, 225 (211); [Buttmann, 148 (129)]; cf. λούεσθαι τὸ λουτρόν, Aelian de nat. an. 3, 42), to be overwhelmed with calamities, of those who must bear them, Matthew 20:22f Rec.; Mark 10:38; Luke 12:50 (cf. the German etwas auszubaden haben, and the use of the word e. g. respecting those who cross a river with difficulty, ἕως τῶν μαστῶν οἱ πεζοὶ βαπτιζόμενοι διέβαινον, Polybius 3, 72, 4; [for examples see Sophocles' Lexicon under the word; also T. J. Conant, Baptizein, its meaning and use, N. Y. 1864 (printed also as an Appendix to their revised version of the Gospel of Matthew by the "American Bible Union"); and especially four works by J. W. Dale entitled Classic, Judaic, Johannic, Christic, Baptism, Phil. 1867ff; D. B. Ford, Studies on the Bapt. Quest. (including a review of Dr. Dale's works), Bost. 1879]).

Septuagint:
  • 2 Kings 5:14
  • Isaiah 21:4

New Testament:
  • Matthew 3:11; 3:11; 3:11; 3:11; 3:13; 3:16; 20:22; 28:19
  • Mark 1:4; 1:5; 1:8; 1:8; 1:9; 6:14; 6:24; 7:4; 10:38; 16:16
  • Luke 3:7; 3:12; 3:16; 3:16; 3:21; 7:29; 7:30; 11:38; 12:50
  • John 1:25; 1:26; 1:28; 1:31; 1:33; 1:33; 3:22; 3:26; 4:1; 4:2; 10:40
  • Acts 1:5; 1:5; 2:38; 2:38; 2:38; 2:41; 8:12; 8:13; 8:16; 8:36; 8:38; 9:18; 10:47; 10:48; 11:16; 11:16; 16:15; 16:33; 18:8; 19:3; 19:4; 19:5; 22:16
  • Romans 6:3
  • 1 Corinthians 1:13; 1:14; 1:15; 1:15; 1:16; 1:17; 10:2; 10:2; 10:2; 12:13; 15:29
  • Galatians 3:27
To argue that "immersion" is not in scripture while "dip", "immerge" and "submerge" is in scripture is to split semantic hairs about word tense.
More to the point, even the Didache commands "baptizo" in running water with "sprinkling" never even mentioned (it says "pour"). Catholics are usually more adamant that they do not sprinkle and view such claims as a derogatory strawman of their traditions.

As a Baptist, I just happen to know the definition of "baptizo" (baptize) since we make a big deal about it.
 

theefaith

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the saints can't hear you, but God can.

Please stop ascribing to creatures the characteristics of the Creator.

God alone is omniscient.

true enough

but don’t count out the good angels there in communion of saints and are messengers of God and his saints

Hebrews 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
 

theefaith

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As a Baptist, I just happen to know the definition of "baptizo" (baptize) since we make a big deal about it.[/QUOTE]

ok but he demanded immersion ONLY!
I accept immersion and pouring and sprinkling as the church has done according to Matt 28:19 for 2000 years

The biblical mandate of God’s work of creation!

Water and the spirit!

First creation:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

(water and the spirit)

Noah:

Gen 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove (representing the spirit) from him…

(Water and the spirit)

Red Sea:

Led thru the waters by the spirit.
Exodus 13:21
And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

(Water and the spirit)

Josuha

Joshua and the people of Israel crossing of the Jordan led by the spirit.

Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord it came to pass, that the Lord spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying, 2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.

(Water and the spirit)

Prophecy of the new creation: (new covenant)

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you…
acts 2:38-39 “this promise”

(Water and the Spirit)

Baptism of Jesus

Jn 1:31 I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

(Water and the spirit)

New creation by water and the spirit

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Water and the spirit)

Christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration is by: WATER AND THE SPIRIT!


No one is born again by:

“the spirit alone”!
Or
“Faith alone”!






Valid Christian baptism requires the flowing water over the forehead three times.

With the words:

I baptize you in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit! Matt 28:19

The grace of God washing away all sin! Acts 22:16




Immersion, pouring, sprinkling 3 times in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit are valid forms of baptism.

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (Baptism)

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.









Baptism:

Matt 28:19

The holy church obeys the command Of Jesus!

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing so remain in Christ!

Keep his commandment!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:5 But who so keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

His word: Matt 28:19

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.






A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)


A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!
 

theefaith

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I did not know baptists believe in baptism or baptismal regeneration but faith alone???
 

michaelvpardo

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Ummmm, the ONLY liar here is YOU.

Jesus absolutely addressed the pagan practice of babbling many words
Matt. 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like PAGANS, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Don’t you EVER tire of being exposed?

And don’t think I didn’t notice that you failed address ANY f the verses I presented about FAITHFUL, repetitious prayer that is pleasing to God . . .
He said that to Jews, believers in the God of scripture. People who prayed to the God of scripture. The people without whom there'd be no Canon of scripture, the people who formed the first Christian church in Jerusalem and met at the temple. The people whom God chose to reveal Himself through. The People who hated Rome with a passion. The nation destroyed by Rome with the faith co-opted by Rome.
Your faith is a pagan fantasy with a veneer of Christ.
 

Taken

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the communion of saints includes all saints

*YES; Bodily Living saints communicate with bodily Living saints.
*YES; Bodily Dead saints communicate with bodily dead saints.

Bodily Living saints that ATTEMPT to communicate with bodily dead saints. God DESTAINS!
It is called necromancy. And a person who commits necromancy is called a necromancer.......
AND committing necromancy IS an ABOMINATION UNTO God!


Deut 18:11
Deut 18:12
 

Illuminator

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He said that to Jews, believers in the God of scripture. People who prayed to the God of scripture. The people without whom there'd be no Canon of scripture, the people who formed the first Christian church in Jerusalem and met at the temple. The people whom God chose to reveal Himself through. The People who hated Rome with a passion. The nation destroyed by Rome with the faith co-opted by Rome.
Your faith is a pagan fantasy with a veneer of Christ.
What nation was destroyed? The first 39 popes were killed by pagan Romans, so "a faith co-opted by Rome" proves you are of the psychotic variety of anti-Catholicism. I see little difference between your false histories and the false histories of the SDA/JW's. To them, Christian Rome and pagan Rome are one and the same. The lies continue to this day.

Briefly, therefore, the fact of Christ's Resurrection is attested by more than 500 eyewitnesses, whose experience, simplicity, and uprightness of life rendered them incapable of inventing such a fable, who lived at a time when any attempt to deceive could have been easily discovered, who had nothing in this life to gain, but everything to lose by their testimony, whose moral courage exhibited in their apostolic life can be explained only by their intimate conviction of the objective truth of their message. Again the fact of Christ's Resurrection is attested by the eloquent silence of the Synagogue which had done everything to prevent deception, which could have easily discovered deception, if there had been any, which opposed only sleeping witnesses to the testimony of the Apostles, which did not punish the alleged carelessness of the official guard, and which could not answer the testimony of the Apostles except by threatening them "that they speak no more in this name to any man" (Acts 4:17). Finally the thousands and millions, both Jews and Gentiles, who believed the testimony of the Apostles in spite of all the disadvantages following from such a belief, in short the origin of the Church, requires for its explanation the reality of Christ's Resurrection, for the rise of the Church without the Resurrection would have been a greater miracle than the Resurrection itself.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Resurrection of Jesus Christ

Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism whereas you have long divorced yourself from our elder brothers. Your stupid insults have no bearing in reality and just like the made-in-America cults, you have to invent your own history, especially whoppers about Constantine.

Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics; by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics; and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.

The nineteenth century witnessed a flowering of this “pagan influence fallacy.” Publications such as The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the classic English text charging the Catholic Church with paganism) paved the way for generations of antagonism toward the Church. During this time, entire new sects were created (Seventh-day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses)—all considering traditional Catholicism and Protestantism as polluted by paganism. This era also saw atheistic “freethinkers” such as Robert Ingersoll writing books attacking Christianity and Judaism as pagan.

The pagan influence fallacy has not gone away in the twentieth century, but newer archaeology and more mature scholarship have diminished its influence. Yet there are still many committing it. In Protestant circles, numerous works have continued to popularize the claims of Alexander Hislop, most notably the comic books of Jack Chick and the book Babylon Mystery Religion by the young Ralph Woodrow (later Woodrow realized its flaws and wrote The Babylon Connection? repudiating it and refuting Hislop). Other Christian and quasi-Christian sects have continued to charge mainstream Christianity with paganism, and many atheists have continued to repeat—unquestioned—the charges of paganism leveled by their forebears.​
read more here

Oh, I forgot. The psychotic anti-Catholic can't read more than 3 lines.

What Is Paranoid Psychosis? Symptoms and Treatment Options, Explained
 
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atpollard

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ok but he demanded immersion ONLY!
That's because "he" was right. ;) [sorry ECFs]
... but I didn't want to be rude by getting into that argument on a topic called "Difference between Catholic and Protestant" since that isn't a difference. Presbyterians "pour" and are Protestants and some Russian Orthodox "immerse" babies and are Catholic.

I was just defending a specific word appearing in scripture. [an OCD thing] :oops:
 

theefaith

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He said that to Jews, believers in the God of scripture. People who prayed to the God of scripture. The people without whom there'd be no Canon of scripture, the people who formed the first Christian church in Jerusalem and met at the temple. The people whom God chose to reveal Himself through. The People who hated Rome with a passion. The nation destroyed by Rome with the faith co-opted by Rome.
Your faith is a pagan fantasy with a veneer of Christ.

the church founded by Christ conquered the pagan Roman Empire


Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Rev 21: 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matt 21:43 taken from Israel given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20


1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:8
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Christ is king and has all authority and dominion!

Christ appointed Peter, the apostles, and their successors to govern the church and administer the kingdom until He returns in glory!

Submission and obedience to them is submission and obedience to Christ!

Like Joseph under pharaoh the king and his brothers bowed in obedience to Him as God willed!

But Protestant fundamentalists will not, for satan the first Protestant was in rebellion against God saying: I will not serve! I will not obey!

So who is you’re leader?

All those who submit and obey are Christ’s!

Those who do not are satan’s!
 

theefaith

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*YES; Bodily Living saints communicate with bodily Living saints.
*YES; Bodily Dead saints communicate with bodily dead saints.

Bodily Living saints that ATTEMPT to communicate with bodily dead saints. God DESTAINS!
It is called necromancy. And a person who commits necromancy is called a necromancer.......
AND committing necromancy IS an ABOMINATION UNTO God!


Deut 18:11
Deut 18:12

I would agree but there are no “dead saints”
Jn 11:25
 

atpollard

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I did not know baptists believe in baptism or baptismal regeneration but faith alone???
Baptists believe in ordinances rather than sacraments. God saves "just because" (Ephesians 2:1-9) and we obey because He changed us and "said so" (Ephesians 2:10).

Baptist Faith and Message
VII. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Savior, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord’s Supper.


The Lord’s Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.


Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.
 

Taken

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she is still the mother of the president

and blessed Mary ever virgin is mother of God

Mary was blessed by God, as are others.
Mary was NOT, sinless.
Mary was NOT, ever virgin.
Mary was NOT, is NOT the mother of God.
God is the Creator.
Mary is the Created.

Men “making” Mary, what she was not, is not...IS:

Rom 1:
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Bowing down before statues of Mary...
Praying to Mary...
Calling on Mary’s name...
Singing song unto Mary...
ARE ALL PRAISE and WORSHIP and SERVICE unto Mary, the Created.


With the authority of Christ the successors of the apostles demand it as per acts 2:42

Successors of the Apostles ARE to be scrutinized SAME as any Teacher/Preacher....
That WHAT they Teach and Preach, IS According to the Word of God.
Verified BY the Scriptures themselves.

You are following Apostolic Teachers/Preachers THAT DO NOT Teach and Preach According to the LIMITS of the Word of God.

NO WHERE, does the Scriptures TEACH...to erect statutes of Mary, bow down to statues of Mary, Proclaim her ever virgin, Proclaim she naturally born sinless, Proclaim her the mother of God, Proclaim her a queen of Heaven, Proclaim to Pray to her, Proclaim she an intercessory to Jesus, to God, on and on.......utterly VOID in Scripture...

Utterly a Gospel OF false Teachers and Preachers...

You should heed the WARNINGS of false Teachers and Preacher AND the consequences FOR following after false Teachers and Preachers.
 

Taken

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I would agree but there are no “dead saints”
Jn 11:25

You should learn what the WHOLE of an individual MAN (the WHOLE called by the one mans NAME identity)....is;
Body, soul, spirit.

ALL BODY’S life is it’s BLOOD.
ALL BODY’S SHALL DIE......God Requires it!

So Yes, while a saint’s ... DEPARTED soul & spirit IS ALIVE WITH God...
Their dead body is rotting in it’s earthen grave returning to dust, Waiting for resurrection, judgement, and their NEW BODY.

Gen 9:
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
 

BreadOfLife

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You mean the Ignatian forgeries (15 letters)? Many scholars, including Philip Schaff have made some very valid points in regards those so called (15) 'Ignatian letters':

From: Philip Schaff: Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, Introductory Note To The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians.

The epistles ascribed to Ignatius have given rise to more controversy than any other documents connected with the primitive Church. As is evident to every reader on the very first glance at these writings, they contain numerous statements which bear on points of ecclesiastical order that have long divided the Christian world; and a strong temptation has thus been felt to allow some amount of prepossession to enter into the discussion of their authenticity or spuriousness. At the same time, this question has furnished a noble field for the display of learning and acuteness, and has, in the various forms under which it has been debated, given rise to not a few works of the very highest ability and scholarship. We shall present such an outline of the controversy as may enable the reader to understand its position at the present day.

There are, in all, fifteen Epistles which bear the name of Ignatius. These are the following: One to the Virgin Mary, two to the Apostle John, one to Mary of Cassobelae, one to the Tarsians, one to the Antiochians, one to Hero, a deacon of Antioch, one to the Philippians; one to the Ephesians, one to the Magnesians, one to the Trallians, one to the Romans, one to the Philadelphians, one to the Smyrnaeans, and one to Polycarp. The first three exist only in Latin: all the rest are extant also in Greek.

It is now the universal opinion of critics, that the first eight of these professedly Ignatian letters are spurious. They bear in themselves indubitable proofs of being the production of a later age than that in which Ignatius lived. Neither Eusebius nor Jerome makes the least reference to them; and they are now by common consent set aside as forgeries, which were at various dates, and to serve special purposes, put forth under the name of the celebrated Bishop of Antioch.

But after the question has been thus simplified, it still remains sufficiently complex. Of the seven Epistles which are acknowledged by Eusebius (Hist. Eccl., iii. 36), we possess two Greek recensions, a shorter and a longer. It is plain that one or other of these exhibits a corrupt text, and scholars have for the most part agreed to accept the shorter form as representing the genuine letters of Ignatius. This was the opinion generally acquiesced in, from the time when critical editions of these Epistles began to be issued, down to our own day. Criticism, indeed, fluctuated a good deal as to which Epistles should be accepted and which rejected. Archp. Usher (1644), Isaac Vossius (1646), J. B. Cotelerius (1672), Dr. T. Smith (I709), and others, edited the writings ascribed to Ignatius in forms differing very considerably as to the order in which they were arranged, and the degree of authority assigned them, until at length, from about the beginning of the eighteenth century, the seven Greek Epistles, of which a translation is here given, came to be generally accepted in their shorter form as the genuine writings of Ignatius.

Before this date, however, there had not been wanting some who refused to acknowledge the authenticity of these Epistles in either of the recensions in which they were then known to exist. By far the most learned and elaborate work maintaining this position was that of Daillé (or Dallaeus), published in 1666. This drew forth in reply the celebrated Vindiciae of Bishop Pearson, which appeared in 1672. It was generally supposed that this latter work had established on an immoveable foundation the genuineness of the shorter form of the Ignatian Epistles; and, as we have stated above, this was the conclusion almost universally accepted down to our own day. The only considerable exception to this concurrence was presented by Whiston, who laboured to maintain in his Primitive Christianity Revived (1711) the superior claims of the longer recension of the Epistles, apparently influenced in doing so by the support which he thought they furnished to the kind of Arianism which he had adopted.

But although the shorter form of the Ignatian letters had been generally accepted in preference to the longer, there was still a pretty prevalent opinion among scholars, that even it could not be regarded as absolutely free from interpolations, or as of undoubted authenticity. Thus said Lardner, in his Credibility of the Gospel History (1743): "have carefully compared the two editions, and am very well satisfied, upon that comparison, that the larger are an interpolation of the smaller, and not the smaller an epitome or abridgment of the larger.... But whether the smaller themselves are the genuine writings of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, is a question that has been much disputed, and has employed the pens of the ablest critics. And whatever positiveness some may have shown on either side, I must own I have found it a very difficult question."

This expression of uncertainty was repeated in substance by Jortin (1751), Mosheim (1755), Griesbach (1768), Rosenmüller (1795), Neander (1826), and many others; some going so far as to deny that we have any authentic remains of Ignatius at all, while others, though admitting the seven shorter letters as being probably his, yet strongly suspected that they were not free from interpolation. Upon the whole, however, the shorter recension was, until recently, accepted without much opposition, and chiefly in dependence on the work of Bishop Pearson above mentioned, as exhibiting the genuine form of the Epistles of Ignatius.

But a totally different aspect was given to the question by the discovery of a Syriac version of three of these Epistles among the mss. procured from the monastery of St. Mary Deipara, in the desert of Nitria, in Egypt. ...

... "Exactly three centuries and a half intervened between the time when three Epistles in Latin, attributed to St. Ignatius, first issued from the press, and the publication in 1845 of three letters in Syriac bearing the name of the same apostolic writer. Very few years passed before the former were almost universally regarded as false and spurious; and it seems not improbable that scarcely a longer period will elapse before the latter be almost as generally acknowledged and received as the only true and genuine letters of the venerable Bishop of Antioch that have either come down to our times, or were ever known in the earliest ages of the Christian Church."

Had the somewhat sanguine hope thus expressed been realized, it would have been unnecessary for us to present to the English reader more than a translation of these three Syriac Epistles. But the Ignatian controversy is not yet settled. There are still those who hold that the balance of argument is in favour of the shorter Greek, as against these Syriac Epistles. They regard the latter as an epitome of the former, and think the harshness which, according to them, exists in the sequence of thoughts and sentences, clearly shows that this is the case. We have therefore given all the forms of the Ignatian letters which have the least claim on our attention. The reader may judge, by comparison for himself, which of these is to be accepted as genuine, supposing him disposed to admit the claims of any one of them. We content ourselves with laying the materials for judgment before him, and with referring to the above-named works in which we find the whole subject discussed. As to the personal history of Ignatius, almost nothing is known. ..." -
The Ante-Nicene Fathers
Nonsense.
Thanks for showing how LITTLE you know about the Letters of Ignatius.

MOST Protestant scholars reject the “forgery” claims of men like 19th century scholar, Philip Schaff, when it comes to the Ignatian Letters. Even his oen contemporaries were writing on the subject during his lifetime.

Eminent 20th century Church historian, Jaroslav Pelikan wrote the following:
“It was Protestant historical scholarship that vindicated the authenticity of the seven epistles. Theodor Zahn, an Orthodox Lutheran published his defense in 1873. And from 1885 to 1889, Joseph Lightfoot by then the Anglican Bishop of Durham, wrote the definitive analysis of the evidence together with a detailed history of the research into it.”

Zahn and Lightfoot were heavy-hitters, not only in THEIR day – but even in today’s Protestant circles.
The fact is that the rejection o the Ignatian Letters is relegated today to mostly fundamentalist fringe groups. YOU probably got YOUR information from a fringe website like, bible.ca.

Bottom line: - YOU are quoting long-debunked claims about these Letters that most serious historians no dismiss . . ..
 

BreadOfLife

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You were schooled, taught, educated and exposed for whatever you were trying to achieve...54 verses in Daniel 3???... And your response is^^^^^^^???
What are you talking about??
Dan. 3:56-88 is THIRTY-TWO (32) VERSEWS long and each verse REPEATS the EXACT SAME PRAYER.

Remember – NOT everyone is as gullible as the disciples/victims of Ellen White . . .
For someone who claims they "school' others you seem to be very lacking in biblical knowledge. The Bible itself explains how Elijah, Moses, (and Enoch) for to glory before anyone else. I will repeat the words of Jesus so you can argue with Him...

KJV John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
WRONG.

Enoch and Elihah were taken up. Moses, however, DIED and was BUIRIED in Moab (Deut. 34:5-6) – yet, we see Jesus conversing with him at the Transfiguration (Luke 9:27-36).
According to your false prophetess, who taught the fallacy of “Soul Sleep” - – the Transfiguration was a lie.

Good luck with that . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Whose history . that is the question . Just cause folks lived in the times right after the apostels dont mean error was not already present .
IT was present even in the days of the orignial apostels . ANYONE born of CHRIST who has been well planted in the truth of scripture
would not enter into the CC , and if they had they would come out . PEROID .
NO lamb can find comfort in that which is false . By grace i could find no comfort nor peace
in many places , EVEN WHEN i did not yet know as i do now . The reason i had no peace
was falsehoods abounded . Even when i did not yet know it was false .
ANY who is trapped in the CC , and yet later CHRIST openeth their eyes , LETS just say
they will begin to correct , and if the correction be no heeded , WELL THEY AINT GONNA STAY PLANTED IN SUCH A PLACE .
What starts with a B and ends with an E . I suggest all take to it and from any falsehood they would flee.
BIBLE . GET A SNORTFUL OF that drink . GUZZEL IT DOWN for GOD IS With the lambs and a stranger they will not heed .
Once again – condemnations of the Catholic Church coming from a guy who DEPENDS on a Catholic Tradition of the NT Canon for his very salvation.
And yet, you’ve NEVER been able to explain this hypocrisy.

Gee – I WONDER why . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Do you agree with this "hstory" (sic) and "truth" in regards Matthew 16:18?:

A study, done by a Roman Catholic, Archbishop Peter Richard Kenrick:

"... which was to be delivered to Vatican I (1870). However, it was never delivered, but it was published later, along with other insights.[5] He points out the 5 interpretations, which Fathers of antiquity held to: 1) Peter as the Rock, 17 Fathers, 2) all the apostles, 8 Fathers, 3) that the church was built on the faith that Peter confessed, 44 Fathers, including the most important Fathers, 4) Jesus as the Rock, 16 Fathers, and 5) all Christians were the living stones, held by very few Fathers. Kenrick rightfully concludes:

“If we are bound to follow the majority of the Fathers in this thing, then we are bound to hold for certain that the rock should be understood as the faith professed by Peter, not Peter professing the faith.”
Thus, only 20% of the Fathers held to Rome’s now canonized “infallible” “Petrine Rock” interpretation of Matthew 16:18. That is far from being the norm of the early church. As Roman Catholic apologist, H. Burn-Murdock admits: “None of the writings of the first two centuries describe St. Peter as a bishop of Rome.”[6] In fact, no one before Callistus (A.D. 223) used Matthew 16:18 to support the primacy of the Roman bishop (i.e., “Pope” as Rome call it)—no one.

The church historian, Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 263-339), sees the “rock” as Christ. He links this interpretation with the parallel rock and foundation statements of 1 Corinthians 3:11 and 10:4. Sharing this view (Christ as the Rock) was Augustine. In fact, he commented more on Matthew 16:18 than any other church Father. It is true that at the beginning of his ministry, he saw Peter as the Rock. However, he changed his position throughout the balance of his ministry in which he adopted the view that the Rock was not Peter, but either Christ or Peter’s confession, which pointed to the Person of Christ:

Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (Sermons, XI, Sermon 229, 327).
What has been demonstrated over and over is that Roman Catholics do not engage in critical exegesis when interpreting Scripture, nor do they objectively examine the patristic (church Fathers) record, not because Catholics lack the ability, but because they do not need to—for Rome has already provided the “infallible” interpretation for them. Thus, for the Catholic: Rome’s interpretations are correct, because Rome says they are.

However, the following points seriously challenge Rome’s position of the so-called Primacy of Peter and him being the first Pope of Rome:

1) There is no biblical evidence indicating that Peter had supremacy over all the other apostles.

2) Peter never once considered that he was Pope, Pontiff; Vicar of Christ, Holy Father, or Head of the whole Christian Church, nor did any of the other apostles make such as claim.

3) Peter outwardly denied the Lord (out of fear) and Peter was rebuked by the Apostle Paul for being prejudice against the Gentiles (cf. Gal. 2:11-12).

4) At the first church council in Jerusalem (not Rome), it was James and not Peter who was the leading speaker and decision maker, for James authoritatively declared: “It is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles. . . .” (Acts 15:19). Moreover, the letter that was sent out regarding the judgment never mentions Peter (cf. v. 23).

5) At the end of Romans, Paul sends his greetings to at least 26 people—but Peter is not even mentioned! Why? Surely, if Peter had “recognized supremacy” over Rome and all the apostles, we would expect Paul to have greeted him first!

6) Peter was a married man, unlike the Roman Popes (cf, Matt. 8:14; 1 Cor. 9:5).
These are but a few of the many valid objections to Rome’s position. Simply, there is no place in the NT where Peter acted as “Pope,” or as the “supreme leader” or “head” of the apostles and the church. Quite the opposite is true. Paul says that the Christian church has “been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone” (Eph. 2:20). The Christian confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God is the very ROCK of faith upon which the Christian church has been built—and not upon the man Peter. ..." – (commenting on) Speech of Archbishop Kenrick, 109, An inside view of the vatican council, edited by Leonard Woolsey Bacon. - An Inside View of the Vatican Council, in the Speech of the Most Reverend Archbishop Kenrick, of St. Louis. Edited by L. W. Bacon, with Notes and Additional Documents, Etc

This was also mentioned by the Standish brothers:

“... the rule of biblical interpretation imposed upon us [by the Roman Catholic Church] is this: that the Scriptures are not to be interpreted contrary to the unanimous consent of the [early Christian] fathers. It is doubtful whether any instance of that unanimous consent is to be found. - Archbishop Kenrick (Peter Richard, 1806-1986), Inside View, 107

The archbishop stated that the early Christian fathers held diverse views upon the meaning of Matthew 16:18 -- The Rock (Ibid., 107-109). Here are some of the views of early Christians upon the meaning of this text:

1. The church was built upon Peter - Kenrick identified seventeen fathers including Origen, Cyprian, Jerome, Hillary, Cyril of Alexandria, Pope Leo the Great and Augustine who [early] held this view [but later dropped from view].

2. All the apostles -- eight fathers including Origen, Cyprian, Jerome, Augustine and Theodoric.

3. The faith which Peter professed -- forty-four fathers, including Gregory of Nyssa, Cyril of Alexandria, Chrysostom, Theophylact, Ambrose, Pope Leo the Great, Augustine.

4. Christ -- sixteen fathers. ...” - The Rapture and Antichrist, by Russel R. Standish, Colin D Standish, page 233 - The Rapture and the Antichrist - The Rapture and the Antichrist
I COULD explain to you that Jesus spoke Aramaic to His Apostles – and NOT Greek . . .

I COULD explain to you the the in Aramaic, Kepha” means ROCK – not small rock or large rock – just ROCK . . .

I COULD explain to you that, in his letters, Paul refers to PeterNOT as :peter”, but as “Cephaas”, a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic. Kepha . . .
HOWEVER
– I’ll let these PROTESTANT scholars do the explainin’ for me . .

Protestant Scholarship on Peter the Rock . . .
W.F. Albright (Protestant) and C.S. Mann

“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence…The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence.”
(The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

Albert Barnes (Nineteenth-Century Presbyterian)
"The meaning of this phrase may be thus expressed: ‘Thou, in saying that I am the Son of God, hast called me by a name expressive of my true character. I, also, have given to thee a name expressive of your character. I have called you Peter, a rock. . . . I see that you are worthy of the name and will be a distinguished support of my religion"
[Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, 170].

John Broadus (Nineteenth-Century Calvinistic Baptist)
"As Peter means rock, the natural interpretation is that ‘upon this rock’ means upon thee. . . . It is an even more far-fetched and harsh play upon words if we understand the rock to be Christ and a very feeble and almost unmeaning play upon words if the rock is Peter’s confession" [Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, 356].

Craig L. Blomberg (Baptist)
"The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in verse 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification" [New American Commentary: Matthew, 22:252].
 

BreadOfLife

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Continued . . .

J. Knox Chamblin (Contemporary Presbyterian)
"By the words ‘this rock’ Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself"
["Matthew" in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].

R.T. France (Anglican)
“Jesus now sums up Peter's significance in a name, Peter . . . It describes not so much Peter's character (he did not prove to be 'rock-like' in terms of stability or reliability), but his function, as the foundation-stone of Jesus' church. The feminine word for 'rock', 'petra', is necessarily changed to the masculine 'petros' (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form 'kepha' would occur in both places). It is only Protestant overreaction to the Catholic claim . . . that what is here said of Peter applies also to the later bishops of Rome, that has led some to claim that the 'rock' here is not Peter at all but the faith which he has just confessed. "The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied. . . Peter is to be the foundation-stone of Jesus' new community . . . which will last forever.”
(Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985], vol. 1: Matthew, 254, 256)

William Hendriksen (Reformed Christian Church, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary)
“The meaning is, “You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church.” Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, probably said, “And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view.”
(New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1973], page 647JPK page 14]

Donald Hagner (Contemporary Evangelical)
"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Catholics to justify the papacy"
(Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

David Hill (Presbyterian)
“It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the ‘rock’ as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.” (The Gospel of Matthew, New Century Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972], 261)

Herman Ridderbos (Contemporary Dutch Reformed)
"It is well known that the Greek word petra translated ‘rock’ here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (‘Peter’) to petra is that petra was the normal word for ‘rock.’ . . . There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that he was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words ‘on this rock [petra]’ indeed refer to Peter"
[Bible Student’s Commentary: Matthew, 303].


Donald A. Carson (Baptist)
“On the basis of the distinction between 'petros' . . . and 'petra' . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere 'stone,' it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the 'rock' . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between 'petros' and 'petra' simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine 'petra' could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been 'lithos' ('stone' of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .”
(Expositor's Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)
 

BreadOfLife

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LOL...You are so out of touch, AS IF, pretending you are the official appointed spokesman for catholics.

catholics speak for themselves....NOT OUR PROBLEM you have not informed all catholics what they are SUPPOSED to Believe. LOL

Yes catholics CLAIM TO PRAY TO and Worship STATUES!
Yes catholics have claimed THEY WERE NATURALLY BORN catholic! Lol
Yes catholics have claimed they are NOT Christian, they’re catholic!
Yes the catholic church has knowingly protected pedophiles, orphan murderers and rapists from prosecution.
Yes catholics are taught gospels that are not Biblical.

You should worry about your own demons before worrying about people who are against what you promote.
Soooo, I by the SAME token – I should judge ALL Protestants by the idiotic remarks of the ignorant ones like yourself?

An ignorant Catholic is NO better off than an educated Protestant . . .
 
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