Can You Lose Your Salvation ?

Graceismine · Jan 6, 2013

BiggAndyy said:
GIM, You bolded the wrong words:
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (your bold)

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (my bold)

We have to define who the "some" are and how the article "the" is used to properly understand what Paul is explaining to Timothy. This is, of course, about future times and the coming Great Apostasy. But are the some composed of believers or non-believers? I think the answer lies 3 words down with the article "the".

Now, does "the faith" re-rendered as "the faith of some" make sense in the passage?

The Spirit clearly says that in later times the faith of some will be abandoned and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons

That is essentially the same thing as the original. But the original is written as "some will abandon the faith". I posit that the "some" is actually non-believers because of the article "the" rather than the plural possessive "their". If it were believers it would have been written "some will abandon their faith". But it's not so we are left to ponder the "some".

Let's rephrase the verse with our new notion
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some non believers will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons

It does not violate any formal laws of logic or reasoning but it is adding to scripture (adding a word). So we must tread carefully lest we infiltrate our conclusion into our investigation of scripture.

Now you are asking the logical question, "How can someone abandon something they don't believe in?" But that is begging the question, is it possible to believe without faith? James 2:19 shows us it can:

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder"

It is much easier to swallow that a non believer to abandon a faith system they have no faith in than for a True believer (saved) to volunteer their salvation to follow demons and false teachings.

But let's also not set aside that the SOME mentioned in the original passage may indeed be saved believers and they are indeed abandoning their fidelity to Christ, but that still does not raise their traitorous behavior to the level of "loss of salvation". They may just be deceived for a season and after correction be reconciled with their faith and their first Love which is Christ Jesus.

Notice even in your own words admit they were created "good", not "perfect".

Adam and Eve were the only two humans alive with the free will to obey or disobey God. The rest of us, through their transgression, lost the ability to freely choose to love and please God, that is why Christ had to come and die for us, and THAT is the Gospel in a nutshell.

We are free to sin to our heart's desire but we are not free to choose to obey God for we are slaves to our sin and chained by unrighteousness. How many times does Paul have to remind his churches of that simple fact over and over again?

As for your part about God extending out His hand over and over again... pretty word picture but I believe in a God who has hold of me and no matter how hard I try to break free from my Father's loving hand, just like my 3 year old son, could not for His hold was strong and fast and unyielding, the way a Father's loving handhold should be.

Once again I use this Scripture 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The "latter times" IMO are now not in the future. "Faith"as used here means in the Greek the system, especially used concerning salvation. It does not mean believing in something like having faith in,,,,

The point being that some who are in the faith will leave it due to falling away to false teachings. Anyone who follows a doctrine of devils will not be saved, saved meaning to be "in Christ" and forever be with the Lord.

Having said that I do not believe that a person can lose his salvation in the sense that God would take it from him. I believe a person would have to consciously turn his back on God as Judas did. I also believe that, that would be a difficult thing to do for someone who is truly born again.

Graceismine · Jan 6, 2013

BiggAndyy said:
GIM, You bolded the wrong words:
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (your bold)

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (my bold)

We have to define who the "some" are and how the article "the" is used to properly understand what Paul is explaining to Timothy. This is, of course, about future times and the coming Great Apostasy. But are the some composed of believers or non-believers? I think the answer lies 3 words down with the article "the".

Now, does "the faith" re-rendered as "the faith of some" make sense in the passage?

The Spirit clearly says that in later times the faith of some will be abandoned and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons

That is essentially the same thing as the original. But the original is written as "some will abandon the faith". I posit that the "some" is actually non-believers because of the article "the" rather than the plural possessive "their". If it were believers it would have been written "some will abandon their faith". But it's not so we are left to ponder the "some".

Let's rephrase the verse with our new notion
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some non believers will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons

It does not violate any formal laws of logic or reasoning but it is adding to scripture (adding a word). So we must tread carefully lest we infiltrate our conclusion into our investigation of scripture.

Now you are asking the logical question, "How can someone abandon something they don't believe in?" But that is begging the question, is it possible to believe without faith? James 2:19 shows us it can:

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder"

It is much easier to swallow that a non believer to abandon a faith system they have no faith in than for a True believer (saved) to volunteer their salvation to follow demons and false teachings.

But let's also not set aside that the SOME mentioned in the original passage may indeed be saved believers and they are indeed abandoning their fidelity to Christ, but that still does not raise their traitorous behavior to the level of "loss of salvation". They may just be deceived for a season and after correction be reconciled with their faith and their first Love which is Christ Jesus.

Notice even in your own words admit they were created "good", not "perfect".

Adam and Eve were the only two humans alive with the free will to obey or disobey God. The rest of us, through their transgression, lost the ability to freely choose to love and please God, that is why Christ had to come and die for us, and THAT is the Gospel in a nutshell.

We are free to sin to our heart's desire but we are not free to choose to obey God for we are slaves to our sin and chained by unrighteousness. How many times does Paul have to remind his churches of that simple fact over and over again?

As for your part about God extending out His hand over and over again... pretty word picture but I believe in a God who has hold of me and no matter how hard I try to break free from my Father's loving hand, just like my 3 year old son, could not for His hold was strong and fast and unyielding, the way a Father's loving handhold should be.

Once again I use this Scripture 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The "latter times" IMO are now not in the future. "Faith"as used here means in the Greek the system, especially used concerning salvation. It does not mean believing in something like having faith in,,,,

The point being that some who are in the faith will leave it due to falling away to false teachings. Anyone who follows a doctrine of devils will not be saved, saved meaning to be "in Christ" and forever be with the Lord.

Having said that I do not believe that a person can lose his salvation in the sense that God would take it from him. I believe a person would have to consciously turn his back on God as Judas did. I also believe that, that would be a difficult thing to do for someone who is truly born again.

7angels · Jan 6, 2013

biggandyy

i pray God looks at salvation 100% for everyone but the word teaches contrary. i will be praying for revelation knowledge for you to open up.

btw the Gospel in a nutshell is Jesus dying for us so we can be reconciled back to God in order to have relationship with him unhindered. the gospel in a nutshell is not we lost the ability to freely choose to love and please God, that is why Christ had to come and die for us.

God bless

Comm.Arnold · Jan 6, 2013

I think you can reason being I saw a documentary on Billy Grahames son or some big US preacher. He for whatever reason wanted to break all of the ten commandments and murdered some guy then he said all these satanic rites and describes cold claws allover his body and a voice saying I love you. I don't imagine he was saved at this point after growing up in a christian home.

logabe · Jan 6, 2013

Raeneske said:
The ones who knew the Lord's will, and did it not are not declared to still receive a "positive" reward. To built a foundation upon sand is to build your faith upon something which is not Christ. That is why to some Christians Christ becomes a "rock of offense" and "a stumbling block". The ones who have not done their Lord's will are not described as saved, for the Lord made this abundantly clear:

Matthew 7:21-27 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Hebrews 8:10 is not referring to some huge future event. This was propecied which the Lord would do when He made the New Covenant. He has already been putting His law in the inward parts of Christians.

Now, if anyone is awakened woth the unbelievers, they are not claimed to be saved. The rest of the dead are doomed, there are no exceptions.

Revelation 20:3-5, 7-0 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Well, that just goes to show that most scholars do not agree with the good Word of God.

It is evident God gives the Holy Ghost to believers, heirs of Salvation, and not Joe Schmoe down the street. View how the disciples had to come together -- even the disciples -- and pray earnestly for the Holy Ghost. It is not some gift God tosses to someone who is not saved. Angels also minister to the heirs of Salvation. You can lose your salvation, end of discussion.

My question is... what did Paul mean when he said they were
still saved although their works didn't please God. They went
about doing their own thing, but Paul said they were still saved.

When you believe on the Lord Jesus your spirit has been saved.
God gives us the ability to recognize "His Presents" in our lives.
This is called having a Passover experience and the evidence of
this is truly wanting to please God. You believe that your sin has
been covered and the blood is applied to your lintels (mind) and
on your door posts (ears), just as the Israelites did in Egypt when
God told them the death angel would "PASSOVER" and kill the
firstborn. They believed and obeyed the words that were spoken,
which justified them in the eyes of the Lord.

But, when the Israelites got to the wilderness for the purpose of
training them in the ways of the Lord, they failed miserably. That's
where we are today. God has placed us in the wilderness of this
life to train and teach us "His Ways". Their problem was their mind.
They wanted to do it their way and God was displeased with their
works.

The question is... did God forget His people forever, or does He have
a plan to make them obedient in the future. Romans 11:15-26 says,

15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of
the world, what will their acceptance be but
life from the dead ?
26 and so all Israel will be saved ; just as it is
written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM
ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM
JACOB."

In essense, God will raise the same Israelites that were disobedient
in Moses Day, and remove their ungodliness so they can enjoy the
blessings of the Kingdom of God. They will accept Jesus Christ and
God will work in them to do His Will. Were they saved? You bet they
were. Were they disobedient? Yep. Did they go into the Promised
Land and enjoy the peace and joy when it was time to go in. No. They
had to wait until they were raised in the general resurrection.

That is exactly what happens to us when we are saved and become
disobedent to the correction of God. 1st Cor. 10:1-8, Paul warns us
to not be like our fathers that were in the wilderness, and he gave us
examples of how we shouldn't conduct ourselves when representing
our Lord.

In other words, God will beat us with many stripes if we know better as
Christians, but if we don't He will beat us with few. That's good news. I
was taught God would throw me away forever. But now I know that God
will never leave me or forsake me, even in my disobedience. Does He
want me to be disobedient? No... but He has a plan if I become that way.
Just as He has a plan for the Israelites.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Raeneske · Jan 6, 2013

1 Timonthy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I am certain, that we are in these times.

In regards to "all" of Israel being saved:

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

First, it would be good to note, that a Jew is not one simply because they claim the name Israel, and they are from Abraham.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

All Israel, does not literally mean every single soul who claims that they are an Israelite. God has sworn, they shall not enter into His rest, because of their unbelief. And it is evident, that they shall be cast into the lake with the unbelievers.

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

The unbelievers portion is the Lake of Fire. The reason the believer receives more stripes, is because he knew our Lord's will, yet did not do it. He is judged according to his works, and based on what he had and did not do.

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

And so you know, they do not escape the Lord's judgment. They burn, depending on their sins, and then become ashes, and cease to exist. There is no evidence anywhere that they remain saved.

Obadiah 1:15-16 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Nahum 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Now, it does not seem that Paul is saying that person is doomed. It seems, that the people are the works when Paul is speaking. And those people shall go through fiery trials, as we go through. The work upon the people you have done, the "building" upon the foundation, is what is possible that it may be burned up. All work is tried: Some are found to be solid work, and some is burned up. Yet, you shall not personally die, if the person you have laboured thus for does not make it to Heaven. They will be burnt up, and turn to ash, and they shall be as if they have never existed. It will be their fault, for not passing the trials, and not yours.

justaname · Jan 8, 2013

I am liking the sheep analogy right now so I am going to stick with it. Lets see what the Good Shepherd says about lost sheep:
Luke 15:4

4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

What does the Good Shepherd say about Himself and His flock?

2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

Being saved is the same as being a sheep. The Lord calls His own sheep by name, He knows all who are saved. If the Lord calls you, and you are His sheep, you will follow. There is nothing forceful here.
If one of the sheep wander the Lord Himself will go looking for said sheep, if He does not you were never His to begin with.

You may consider this forceful, I consider it loving.

Comm.Arnold said:
I think you can reason being I saw a documentary on Billy Grahames son or some big US preacher. He for whatever reason wanted to break all of the ten commandments and murdered some guy then he said all these satanic rites and describes cold claws allover his body and a voice saying I love you. I don't imagine he was saved at this point after growing up in a christian home.

Growing up in a Christian home does not save you, God does.

Doing some preparation for some other work and I came along this passage. I wonder how those who think you can lose your salvation deal with this passage.

Jeremiah 32:39-40

39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Ok I just could not restrain myself from posting this pericope any any longer.

John 6:37

37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

biggandyy · Jan 8, 2013

7angels said:
i will be praying for revelation knowledge for you to open up.

That is mighty haughty of you, don't you think? Simply because we disagree doesn't mean I need to hear from God to realize YOU are right I am might be wrong. No, that was quite arrogant on your part, ASSUMING that YOUR theology is correct. We could BOTH be wrong, but we both can't be right.

I am not going to lower myself to the level to wish some sort of fairy tale experience might deliver you from your wrongness. You may be correct, I don't believe so, but I can leave room in my considerations for that possibility, I only ask for you to indulge me the same courtesy.

KingJ · Jan 9, 2013

It is so important for us to grasp free will properly on this subject.

Big Andy, you say ''Then no one would be saved for no one seeks salvation, no, not one.''. What about Nineveh? God didn't change their hearts. They made a decision to accept what Jonah said. Sure a new heart seeks to and can please God. But faith and obedience with the old one also worked in the OT.

Axehead · Jan 9, 2013

Graceismine said:
Once again I use this Scripture 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The "latter times" IMO are now not in the future. "Faith"as used here means in the Greek the system, especially used concerning salvation. It does not mean believing in something like having faith in,,,,

The point being that some who are in the faith will leave it due to falling away to false teachings. Anyone who follows a doctrine of devils will not be saved, saved meaning to be "in Christ" and forever be with the Lord.

Having said that I do not believe that a person can lose his salvation in the sense that God would take it from him. I believe a person would have to consciously turn his back on God as Judas did. I also believe that, that would be a difficult thing to do for someone who is truly born again.

I agree with you. But also, people need to understand what being "truly born-again" is. First, it is not a prayer that you prayed 25 years ago. You don't get your "ticket punched" and then say, I was truly born-again on such and such date and therefore I am and always will be saved. If you are truly born-again then you will live like it and endure to the end, living righteously and holy before your God.

Saved, being saved and will be saved is all rolled up into a daily walk with Christ and a daily abiding in Him. If you were saved, then you will be living like it. God does not sell insurance policies that you take out and look at once a year. Ask the children in the wilderness who turned back

That is why we have verses such as:
2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

"Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1Co_6:8-10).

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before (speaking to Christians), as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal_5:19).

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

KingJ · Jan 9, 2013

justaname said:
Ok I just could not restrain myself from posting this pericope any any longer.

John 6:37

37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

I agree with your sheep example. Based off the above I don't think we agree on how we become a sheep.

v37: God will never leave nor forsake us, but we can Him. The prodigal son left the father.
v39: It is God's will / hope that none leave Him. He cannot force us to serve Him that would simply not be giving us free will.
v40: A good verse, but completely out of context if used to support the OSAS belief as the devil believes and has seen Jesus!

You say ''If one of the sheep wander the Lord Himself will go looking for said sheep, if He does not you were never His to begin with'' I agree! But feel you must also consider 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour and Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not proper.

Then there is the fact that we are waiting to put on incorruption, until then we are prone to corruption and losing our salvation.

1 Cor 15:52-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Graceismine · Jan 9, 2013

justaname,

I like the sheep analogy also. Many of us have sheep in our families that have gone astray. Jesus is out there rounding them up right now.

Son of The Living God · Jan 9, 2013

HollyRock said:
I used to think that you could'nt lose your salvation but now I'm not so sure..can someone help me out here ?

DOCTRINES OF MEN (Traditions, Commandments and Judgments)

Matthew 5:20 (KJV) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 16:6 (KJV) Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 16:12 (KJV) Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 23:13 (KJV) But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Hosea 4:6 (KJV) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

II John 1:7 (KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

II John 1:9 (KJV) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Matthew 15:8 (KJV) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Matthew 15:9 (KJV) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Acts 5:38 (KJV) And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

REWARD FOR FOLLOWING THEM

John 5:39 (KJV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Matthew 7:21 (KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22 (KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 (KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

LOST SALVATION

Jeremiah 9:25 (KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;

II Thessilionians 1:8 (KJV) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

II Thessilionians 1:9 (KJV) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 10:30 (KJV) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

FOLLOWING A FALSE GOD (Antichrist who cannot forgive sin)

II Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

II Thessalonians 2:2 (KJV) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

II Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

II Thessalonians 2:4 (KJV) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

II Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

II Thessalonians 2:11 (KJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

II Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 24:24 (KJV) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

II Corinthians 11:13 (KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

II Corinthians 11:14 (KJV) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

II Corinthians 11:15 (KJV) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Revelation 13:11 (KJV) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Daniel 8:23 (KJV) And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Daniel 8:24 (KJV) And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Daniel 8:25 (KJV) And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

JUSTIFIED BY FAITH

Romans 3:19 (KJV) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 3:20 (KJV) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:21 (KJV) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:24 (KJV) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:25 (KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:26 (KJV) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 3:27 (KJV) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:28 (KJV) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:29 (KJV) Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Romans 3:30 (KJV) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

TRUTH

Your witness is instilled within you by:

Water
Blood
The Spirit

I John 5:1 (KJV) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

I John 5:2 (KJV) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

I John 5:3 (KJV) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I John 5:4 (KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

I John 5:5 (KJV) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I John 5:6 (KJV) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

I John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I John 5:8 (KJV) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I John 5:9 (KJV) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

I John 5:10 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

I John 5:11 (KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I John 5:12 (KJV) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

I John 5:13(KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

ALLOW GOD’S WORD TO ABIDE IN YOU

John 15:7 (KJV) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Colossians 3:16 (KJV) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Colossians 3:17 (KJV) And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

James 1:21 (KJV) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

I John 2:5 (KJV) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

GOD’S SEAL

Song of Solomon 8:6 (KJV) Set me as a seal upon thine heart, As a seal upon thine arm: For love is strong as death; Jealousy is cruel as the grave: The coals thereof are coals of fire, Which hath a most vehement flame.

Ephisians 4:30 (KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

II Timothy 2:19 (KJV) Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

MANMADE JUDGMENTS

Colossians 2:13 (KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:14 (KJV) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 (KJV) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:16 (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:17 (KJV) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Matthew 7:1 (KJV) Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Matthew 7:2 (KJV) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Romans 14:13 (KJV) Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

I John 1:7 (KJV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

II John 1:8 (KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:24 (KJV) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Galatians 6:1 (KJV) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Galatians 6:2 (KJV) Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

I Corinthians 2:5 (KJV) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Always remember,

Love by Faith, Faith by works…

SON OF THE LIVING GOD

Comm.Arnold · Jan 9, 2013

justaname said:
I am liking the sheep analogy right now so I am going to stick with it. Lets see what the Good Shepherd says about lost sheep:
Luke 15:4

4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

What does the Good Shepherd say about Himself and His flock?

2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."

Being saved is the same as being a sheep. The Lord calls His own sheep by name, He knows all who are saved. If the Lord calls you, and you are His sheep, you will follow. There is nothing forceful here.
If one of the sheep wander the Lord Himself will go looking for said sheep, if He does not you were never His to begin with.

You may consider this forceful, I consider it loving.

Growing up in a Christian home does not save you, God does.

Doing some preparation for some other work and I came along this passage. I wonder how those who think you can lose your salvation deal with this passage.

Jeremiah 32:39-40

39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Ok I just could not restrain myself from posting this pericope any any longer.

John 6:37

37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Bless you buddy.

justaname · Jan 9, 2013

KingJ said:
I agree with your sheep example. Based off the above I don't think we agree on how we become a sheep.

v37: God will never leave nor forsake us, but we can Him. The prodigal son left the father.
v39: It is God's will / hope that none leave Him. He cannot force us to serve Him that would simply not be giving us free will.
v40: A good verse, but completely out of context if used to support the OSAS belief as the devil believes and has seen Jesus!

You say ''If one of the sheep wander the Lord Himself will go looking for said sheep, if He does not you were never His to begin with'' I agree! But feel you must also consider 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour and Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not proper.

Then there is the fact that we are waiting to put on incorruption, until then we are prone to corruption and losing our salvation.

1 Cor 15:52-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Yeah now I am feeling I should have waited on posting that pericope. Attacking the weaker of two arguments is almost always the tactic of opponents. Would you care to comment on this pericope?

Jeremiah 32:39-40

39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

KingJ · Jan 9, 2013

justaname said:
Yeah now I am feeling I should have waited on posting that pericope. Attacking the weaker of two arguments is almost always the tactic of opponents. Would you care to comment on this pericope?

Jeremiah 32:39-40

39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

We need to first acknowledge that we have / need a love based relationship with God! Rev 2:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had.

Now your scripture can be read with some context. Lets consider my wife (as we are engaged / married to Christ). We are 'one' (and I will give them one heart and one way). I fear losing her and hurting her (because I love her). I am better off with my wife (the man who finds a wife finds a good thing) and so are my children. Of course with God, our children are better off if we bring them up Christian. Not that they wouldnt receive an equal and fair opportunity to accept or reject Jesus without it, but in that they can find Jesus sooner. (that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them) Sure with God there is the added consideration of fearing hell. But did that stop the fallen angels? Fearing hell is simply one of many ingredients the Holy Spirit can use to toil the soil around our heart, preparing it to plant the seed of Jesus. I like to think that us His children / the bride of Christ are past the stage of fearing hell. We should be able to say that we will serve Jesus even if in hell.

God is the perfect partner. He will never leave nor forsake us! He will do everything in His power to keep us and then some.(I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me) When God 'puts the fear of Him in their hearts' Logic tells me that it is a last resort (Unless it is the fear of losing our first love). It is inline with how sickness comes on us Christians if we continue in unrepentant sin. How He hands us over to a reprobate mind. How He removes Himself from us. He wants us to miss Him! I guess the comparison to my wife would be a separation. But God being the perfect partner, a separation where He still waits for us ^_^.

Only when we commit the unpardonable sin does God completely give us over to our choice to reject Him. Simply put, If we are not dead, we have not yet committed it. Everyone going to hell has committed it.

Something that I find interesting is where scripture says His mercy endureth forever. I have thought long on this. I see this as applying to all the saved and the unsaved.
This is what I come up with..... God still loves the devil! Look at how Jesus gave him a chance to speak. Jesus could have hurt the devil, He didn't! He just quoted scripture and I imagine no sarcasm or belittling. God has created a place for those who reject Him to stay in for eternity. God is prepared to ''put up'' with those who hate Him for eternity. The only issue is suffering. God would be guilty some-what in my books of 'not being good / merciful' if He made those who reject Him to suffer for eternity. Are the fallen angels suffering now? NO, but they ARE banished. We will have increased IQ in heaven. God has nothing to hide! If we think we can find fault with Him now, how much more in heaven? God is a fair judge. He is blameless. He is good. He wants us to know this!

justaname · Jan 9, 2013

KingJ said:
We need to first acknowledge that we have / need a love based relationship with God! Rev 2:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had.

I will continue a faith based relationship.

KingJ said:
Now your scripture can be read with some context. Lets consider my wife (as we are engaged / married to Christ). We are 'one' (and I will give them one heart and one way).

If you are alluding this pericope is about marriage you are dead wrong.

KingJ said:
I fear losing her and hurting her (because I love her). I am better off with my wife (the man who finds a wife finds a good thing) and so are my children. Of course with God, our children are better off if we bring them up Christian. Not that they wouldnt receive an equal and fair opportunity to accept or reject Jesus without it, but in that they can find Jesus sooner. (that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them) Sure with God there is the added consideration of fearing hell. But did that stop the fallen angels?

Are you suggesting we follow the path of fallen angels?

KingJ said:
Fearing hell is simply one of many ingredients the Holy Spirit can use to toil the soil around our heart, preparing it to plant the seed of Jesus. I like to think that us His children / the bride of Christ are past the stage of fearing hell. We should be able to say that we will serve Jesus even if in hell.

I agree those in hell are still under Jesus' authority.

KingJ said:
God is the perfect partner. He will never leave nor forsake us! He will do everything in His power to keep us and then some.(I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me) When God 'puts the fear of Him in their hearts' Logic tells me that it is a last resort

Please explain your logic.

KingJ said:
(Unless it is the fear of losing our first love). It is inline with how sickness comes on us Christians if we continue in unrepentant sin.

Most sickness come on us from viruses, but I will humor you here. Sickness can be a vehicle God uses for unrepentant sin, but I think the Holy Spirit uses your conscience above anything else.

KingJ said:
How He hands us over to a reprobate mind. How He removes Himself from us. He wants us to miss Him! I guess the comparison to my wife would be a separation. But God being the perfect partner, a separation where He still waits for us ^_^.

I do not believe the Holy Spirit removes Himself from us. The Holy Spirit is with us until the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

KingJ said:
Only when we commit the unpardonable sin does God completely give us over to our choice to reject Him. Simply put, If we are not dead, we have not yet committed it. Everyone going to hell has committed it.

I think you are terribly mistaken here.

KingJ said:
Something that I find interesting is where scripture says His mercy endureth forever. I have thought long on this. I see this as applying to all the saved and the unsaved.
This is what I come up with..... God still loves the devil! Look at how Jesus gave him a chance to speak. Jesus could have hurt the devil, He didn't! He just quoted scripture and I imagine no sarcasm or belittling.

The mercy given to the devil is in His persisting existence. Our God is great and He will have a great day of judgement for He is also just.

KingJ said:
God has created a place for those who reject Him to stay in for eternity.

That place is called hell.

KingJ said:
God is prepared to ''put up'' with those who hate Him for eternity. The only issue is suffering. God would be guilty some-what in my books of 'not being good / merciful' if He made those who reject Him to suffer for eternity.

Now you are judging God.

KingJ said:
Are the fallen angels suffering now? NO, but they ARE banished.

Banishment is a form of punishment, there is suffering involved.

KingJ said:
We will have increased IQ in heaven.

We can only hope so.

KingJ said:
God has nothing to hide! If we think we can find fault with Him now, how much more in heaven?

I find no fault in God.

KingJ said:
God is a fair judge. He is blameless. He is good. He wants us to know this!

I do.

KingJ · Jan 10, 2013

I will continue a faith based relationship.

If the devil overthrew God, would you continue your faith based relationship with God?

If you are alluding this pericope is about marriage you are dead wrong

There is something wrong in considering a relationship / marriage example when interpreting scripture from God our Father or Jesus our groom?

Please explain your logic.

It was explained, perhaps some more effort by you to give your logic on why mine is insufficient...

Most sickness come on us from viruses, but I will humor you here. Sickness can be a vehicle God uses for unrepentant sin, but I think the Holy Spirit uses your conscience above anything else.

1 Cor 11:28-31

I do not believe the Holy Spirit removes Himself from us. The Holy Spirit is with us until the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

God sealed from His side, but what do you think the warning is for? What do you think grieving the Holy Spirit will result in? How do you interpret Romans 1:28? And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

I think you are terribly mistaken here

If anyone committed pardonable sin they would not be in hell would they.

Banishment is a form of punishment, there is suffering involved.

You don't need suffering for punishment. If the devil chooses to not be with God, I am pretty sure he is happier out of God's presence. Sure suffering for sin is coming.

We can only hope so.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

I find no fault in God.

You sure? God's favouritism is not going to get to you one-day? What if the Holy Spirit doesn't regenerate your kids heart?

jiggyfly · Jan 10, 2013

HollyRock said:
I used to think that you could'nt lose your salvation but now I'm not so sure..can someone help me out here ?

Can you lose God? My salvation is in Him.

justaname · Jan 10, 2013

King J,
I am certain you are incorrect in your assessment of this pericope. The language is plain and there is no need for the allusion of marriage attached to it.

As far as your questions you presented I instead choose to focus on the subject at hand. The way I handled your response may have not been the best approach possible and if I have offended anyone including yourself I am sorry.

My stance on the OP is simple. Only those who achieve salvation (final glorification) are worthy of having the term saved applied to them and are the only ones being saved.

Can You Lose Your Salvation ?

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