A closer look at "baptizo" (to baptize)

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JLB

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JLB, I also have bible verses that support ''water baptism", if you base your understanding on your bible verses why do you reject/ignore the bible verses that Selene and I have produced in support of" water baptism" ? Here are some more verses in support of -
Born Again in Water Baptism
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.

As I have said before many times, water baptism is a function of the New Testament Church. Everyone needs to be baptized in water.

I am saying that it is not the only baptism, as I have shown from the many scriptures I have given.

He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Now, you have a choice, you can either believe Jesus or you can believe your denominational preacher.


JLB
 

John Zain

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The baptism with the Holy Spirit
WHY has it not been accepted over the years by the mainstream churches?

Note: God began to bring it back into prominence in the early 1900's
(and people say it's connected with
Joel 2).

28 And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.


It is a special anointing for ministry (after salvation).
It is connected with the 9 gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12).


The NT church leaders (Ephesians 4:11) had this baptism and one or more gifts of the Spirit.
But, since then …
Some church leaders were ignorant that it is of God.
Some church leaders were not given this baptism, nor any of the 9 spiritual gifts,
and they were jealous of those who had any of this.


Church leaders are jealous, even fearful, of those who are "more spiritual" than they are.
After all, church leaders are supposed to be the leaders, right?
Also, they don't want to risk causing their precious followers to leave due to questionable doctrine.

After all, their livelihood depends on their tithes.
The Lord is in the process of bringing down such ministries.
 

neophyte

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Apr 25, 2012
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There is only "one "Baptism.
One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.
But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

Not one early Christian ever referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

In Ephesians 4:3:6 .we again can see the professed truth of Scripture, as follows: " Preserve the unity of the Spirit..........; one Lord one Baptism , one God....."---------emphasis on "one" Baptism.
 

JLB

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Mar 25, 2012
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There is only "one "Baptism.
One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.
But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

Not one early Christian ever referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

In Ephesians 4:3:6 .we again can see the professed truth of Scripture, as follows: " Preserve the unity of the Spirit..........; one Lord one Baptism , one God....."---------emphasis on "one" Baptism.


John 3:3-12

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Tell me brother, what earthly thing is Jesus using in this passage to help this priest understand the heavenly counterpart?

I will give you a hint, For flesh gives birth to flesh.


If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?


The word baptism does not appear in this discussion. One would have to PRESUME that is what is being discussed. If one would actually read what is being said then that person would clearly see the discussion is about being "Born Again" spiritually and born of flesh naturally. For flesh gives birth to flesh is speaking of natural birth.

Baptism is about the DEATH and resurrection, not the new birth!

JLB

John 3:3-12

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Tell me brother, what earthly thing is Jesus using in this passage to help this priest understand the heavenly counterpart?

I will give you a hint, For flesh gives birth to flesh.


If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?


The word baptism does not appear in this discussion. One would have to PRESUME that is what is being discussed. If one would actually read what is being said then that person would clearly see the discussion is about being "Born Again" spiritually and born of flesh naturally. For flesh gives birth to flesh is speaking of natural birth.

Baptism is about the DEATH and resurrection, not the new birth!

When you teach baby Christians a false doctrine about baptism, thinking they are "born again" because they got "dunked in water", they are now walking in deception of a false salvation.

JLB
 

neophyte

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Parts of this taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and from Catholic Answers. Sorry, this is rather lengthly but answers some of your misunderstandings, much like as Nicodemus misunderstood it as "again".
Scripture indicates three times when Jesus might have instituted his baptism. First, in his words to Nicodemus: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). Jesus seems to indicate the necessity of baptism here, but it could be that he speaks of an eventual necessity because his sacramental baptism had not yet been instituted. He speaks later of eventual necessity when he says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:53). Since the sacrament of Holy Communion would not be instituted until the Last Supper, his words here cannot indicate a current necessity. Similarly, when he speaks to Nicodemus it is not clear that Jesus has yet instituted the sacrament of baptism.
we see another possibility: “Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized. . . . Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), he left Judea and departed again to Galilee” (John 3:22-23, 4:1-3).
It is generally understood that the baptisms mentioned in this passage were not yet Jesus’ sacramental baptism. For example, a footnote in the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition Bible identifies them as “a baptism like that of John. The time for baptism ‘in the Spirit’ had not yet come.” Similarly, A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture states that it is “more probably not that baptism which was to give the Spirit, 7:39, but rather a preparatory rite like that of John.” Note the reference here to the later verse 7:39, which states, “As yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.” This verse seems to indicate that sacramental baptism would not arrive until after the Resurrection.
The third possible reference to the institution of the sacrament of baptism is found in the words of the great commission given by Jesus after the Resurrection: “Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age’” (Matt. 28:16-20).
If the sacrament of baptism was not instituted until after the Resurrection, Dismas’ [ thief on cross with Christ] salvation would not be subject to its current necessity. But scholars do not agree on when the sacrament was instituted, so whether or not it was necessary at the time of the Crucifixion remains an open question, as does the question of whether or not Dismas had been baptized.
That said, some will point out that it seems that at least the apostles had received sacramental baptism by the time of the Last Supper, since baptism is the “gateway” to the other sacraments (CCC 1213) and they received the sacraments of holy orders and Holy Communion that evening. We could argue that Jesus was free to administer the sacraments in any order he chose, for “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments” (CCC 1257). But let’s consider that the sacrament might have been instituted before the Crucifixion.
If Jesus did institute baptism before the Crucifixion, and Dismas [Dismas was the name of the thief on the cross with Jesus] was baptized, then there is no conflict with the doctrine of the necessity of baptism. But if Dismas wasn’t baptized, does this pose a conflict? Actually, it doesn’t. While baptism is the ordinary means of baptismal graces, the Church holds that there are other extraordinary means that suffice when certain circumstances exist. One of those is baptism of desire. The Catechism explains:
Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).
So it could be that Dismas [thief on cross with Jesus ] was ignorant of certain things but he experienced a true conversion on his cross and was saved because he would have desired baptism had he known. Or maybe he wasn’t ignorant but he had not yet had the opportunity for baptism and his actual desire for it sufficed: “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament” (CCC 1259).
Whatever the case may be, Jesus’ words on the cross to Dismas [thief ] do not contradict the doctrine of the necessity of baptism as the Catholic Church teaches it.
 

Selene

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As I have said before many times, water baptism is a function of the New Testament Church. Everyone needs to be baptized in water.

I am saying that it is not the only baptism, as I have shown from the many scriptures I have given.

He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Now, you have a choice, you can either believe Jesus or you can believe your denominational preacher.


JLB

No, that is not what you said. Below is what you stated in your post #55.

No water baptism!



Acts 10:44-47

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"


Water baptism done after the baptism of The Holy Spirit. Clearly not at the same time.


JLB

According to your own post #55, you stated that there is NO water baptism and that it is over and done with. After I showed Scripture in the Bible that the Apostles continued to baptize with water after Pentecost.....then you suddenly changed your song and dance.

Nowhere in my post did I ever disregarded the Holy Spirit. As I have been saying over and over. We follow the baptism of Jesus Christ. Christ was baptized only once at the Jordan River and it was a baptism of water and spirit. So, in our baptism, we receive both water and the Holy spirit. If your church stopped baptizing with water, then perhaps you should ask yourself why you are in a church that disobeyed God and the Bible. It was God who ordered water baptism. So, where in the Bible did it say that God got rid of baptizing with water?
 

John Zain

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This was posted on a thread I started elsewhere ...

I know how this sounds but gonna say it anyway.
I am an Expert on how the word baptism was used in the New Testament.

I researched this subject over 20 years ago (objectively - the only research that counts)
and was shocked to learn that Jesus never commanded a watery baptism for the church age.
I ended up convincing a Greek Scholar and a Pastor of one of the Largest churches in his State.
Both of whom, came out swinging at first to defend their programmed beliefs on this subject.
The view was: "If commanded by Jesus it must be important for us to do it"!

Indeed it would be if there was such a command since a command is by definition a "necessary prescription"! Old School Catholics claim it's necessary, while Protestants compromise and say "It's a "should" not a must. Both make no sense!
There isn't a drop of water mentioned in the Great Commission accounts (last chapters of Matt, Mark & Luke). Matt. & Mark have been made to look like a watery command because of how the RCC manipulated the test by saying "baptism is baptism" and means in water. Your thread proves this is an error put out by ax grinders to take the Spirituality out of scripture and replace it with physical rituals which can never bring an inward change in a person.
Anyway back to the text. Peter's command in Acts 10 is of his opinion.
For years I couldn't figure out why Peter went against Jesus' Acts 1:5 …
"John truly baptized with WATER but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence".

Jewish baptism was in water (physical) but the baptism for the church was to be inward/spiritual according to Jesus. Took me 2 years to realize that the same verse of Jesus that came back to mind time and again (acts 1:5) was also recalled to Peter's mind and stated in Acts 11:16. This recalling is no doubt a correction from the Holy Spirit.

Peter is not the first infallible Pope. For years people were taught by the RCC that he was so they didn't challenge
his command for the gentiles to be water baptized, something they obviously didn't need since they had already been saved. Jews got water baptized for repentance which comes b4 salvation not after it. What I also find shocking about Christianity is the fact that Scholar after Scholar points to 1 cor. 1 and basically says "He Paul is shown to water baptize there so that is proof of the importance of watery baptism"!

How can anyone ignore "I thank God that I only baptized a FEW"?
and also ignore "Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel"?
All they see is that Paul baptized in water? Wow!!!!
Is it any wonder that there is so much confusion on Christian Forums and in the World about Scripture, etc.?

In closing: You are right on, by pointing out how important spiritual baptism is in Acts 10 & 11.
The Jewish Converts in Jerusalem weren't convinced by Peter's watery command
(He purposely said nothing about it in Acts 11 when talking to them) Check it out!
There was no need to since he took correction from the Holy Spirit on which baptism was important.
The same one that convinced the Jewish Converts that these Gentiles were indeed no part of the Church age.
 

neophyte

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John I see in your post #67 where you must agree that God’s forgiveness of one’s sins is necessary for salvation. But, according to Scripture, this does not occur in our first moment of faith in Jesus Christ, as most Protestants claim. Saul was not saved the moment he was struck on the road to Damascus and first believed in Jesus Christ because his sins were not forgiven until three days later, when he was baptized (Acts 9:9-19 and 22:16). Isn’t it ironic that Protestants claim Paul preached "salvation by [mental] faith alone" when it didn’t work that way for Paul himself ?
 

JLB

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No, that is not what you said. Below is what you stated in your post #55.



According to your own post #55, you stated that there is NO water baptism and that it is over and done with. After I showed Scripture in the Bible that the Apostles continued to baptize with water after Pentecost.....then you suddenly changed your song and dance.

Nowhere in my post did I ever disregarded the Holy Spirit. As I have been saying over and over. We follow the baptism of Jesus Christ. Christ was baptized only once at the Jordan River and it was a baptism of water and spirit. So, in our baptism, we receive both water and the Holy spirit. If your church stopped baptizing with water, then perhaps you should ask yourself why you are in a church that disobeyed God and the Bible. It was God who ordered water baptism. So, where in the Bible did it say that God got rid of baptizing with water?


Can you read! What is wrong with you?

Water Baptism is done after the Baptism of The Holy Spirit, indicating that the two baptisms were done at different times, NOT at the same time like you would us to believe.

WATER BAPTISM IS A DOCTRINE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH. EVERYBODY NEEDS TO BE BAPTIZED IN WATER!!!


JLB
 

John Zain

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These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit is INSIDE believers:
John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11, 1 Cor. 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16
There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit coming UPON or resting UPON anyone.

These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit comes
UPON believers when receiving the Holy Spirit baptism:
Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:5-6
There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit being INSIDE, moving INSIDE, etc.

In these 7 passages,
UPON is linked with:
Luke 24:49 ------ the promise … power
Acts 1:4-8 –----- the promise … power … baptism with Holy Spirit
Acts 8:14-19 –-- power … received Holy Spirit … laying on of hands
Acts 2:1-4 –----- speaking in tongues … filled with Holy Spirit
Acts 10:44-48 -- speaking in tongues … received Holy Spirit … the gift
Acts 19:5-6 ----- speaking in tongues … baptism with Holy Spirit … laying on of hands
Acts 11:15-17 -- baptism with Holy Spirit … the gift


Please note that "promise" and "gift" are referring to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, not salvation.
Please note that "power" is referring to spiritual power from God.


John I see in your post #67 where you must agree that God’s forgiveness of one’s sins is necessary for salvation. But, according to Scripture, this does not occur in our first moment of faith in Jesus Christ, as most Protestants claim. Saul was not saved the moment he was struck on the road to Damascus and first believed in Jesus Christ because his sins were not forgiven until three days later, when he was baptized (Acts 9:9-19 and 22:16). Isn’t it ironic that Protestants claim
Paul preached "salvation by [mental] faith alone" when it didn’t work that way for Paul himself ?

By grace you have been saved through faith ... it's a gift from God ... not of works (Ephesians 2:8).
Faith is a gift ... salvation is a gift.
It all comes from God ... all of it ... man cannot do it by himself.
 

neophyte

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John Zane, you wrote: "when one receives this baptism, the Holy Spirit always comes" upon" people (seven references). the Holy Spirit always comes" inside" people [ 7 references ] both of your examples mean the same thing.
 

John Zain

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John Zane, you wrote: "when one receives this baptism, the Holy Spirit always comes" upon" people (seven references).
the Holy Spirit always comes" inside" people [ 7 references ] both of your examples mean the same thing.

Yes, indeedie, that's what babes who drink lots of milk think.
But, when you grow up, think again.
 

neophyte

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John Zane,notice that John 3 mentions the new birth in the context of feminine or maternal imagery (the mother’s womb), whereas 1 Peter gives a masculine or paternal image (the "seed" of the word of God). The new birth is not water alone, nor the word alone, but the "washing of water with the word" (Eph 5:26). They should be united, not pitted against one another. In fact, Peter’s readers had been led by hearing the word to embrace new birth in baptism. Their new birth in baptism was the result of the word being implanted earlier—a spiritual "conception" in more than one sense.
Even if the images did conflict, this would not invalidate one or the other. After all, Scripture sometimes uses the same image for different aspects of divine truth. The Church is said to be built on the foundation of Christ (1 Cor 3:11), the apostles and prophets (Eph 2:20, Rev 21:14), and Peter in particular (Matt 16:18). The image of a lion is applied to both the Lord and the devil. There is no reason why birth imagery should not be applied to both water and the word. As it is, though, the happy complementarity of the two images—a paternal and a maternal one—powerfully brings out both aspects of the new birth.
 

Selene

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Water baptism came from God. It did not come from any man or any Church...but from God Himself. Jesus was baptised in BOTH Water and Spirit, and Jesus is the role model for us to follow. Afterall, He did say that He is the WAY. What good is being a follower of Christ if one can't even do what Christ did, which is be baptized in water and spirit.

As for St. Paul, nowhere did St. Paul ever say to get rid of baptism. Saying, "Christ sent me not to baptize" does not mean that baptism is done away with. Nor does it mean that baptism is NOT important. The FACT that St. Paul actually stated that "Christ sent him not to baptize" showed that baptism indeed came from God and not from man. Also, the FACT that St. Paul baptized showed that he also did not consider baptism irrelevant (See 1 Corinthians 1:16).

Furthermore, water baptism only started in the New Testament. Water baptism is not found in the Old Testament. In fact, there is no such thing as baptism in the Old Testament.

Baptism replaced circumcision. In the Old Testament, God told the Israelites to circumcize their male children as a sign that they are His chosen people. Those who were not circumcised were not God's chosen people. In the New Testament, those who are baptized with water and spirit became God's sons and daughters. They enter into His family. Scripture shows that water baptism replaced circumcision (See Col. 2:11-12). In the Old Testament, circumcision is the covenant made by God as a sign of God's chosen people. In the New Testament, water baptism is the new covenant made by God as a sign of God's sons and daughters (new creatures in Christ). Through baptism, we are made into new creatures ---sons and daughters of God.

Our baptism is connected to the baptism of Christ in which we received BOTH Water and Spirit just like Christ.....exactly like Christ, our only role model. When Christ told His Apostles to go out and baptize all nations, it was a baptism that also included water and not just the spirit alone or water alone. It is a baptism of both water and spirit.

Can you read! What is wrong with you?

Water Baptism is done after the Baptism of The Holy Spirit, indicating that the two baptisms were done at different times, NOT at the same time like you would us to believe.

WATER BAPTISM IS A DOCTRINE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH. EVERYBODY NEEDS TO BE BAPTIZED IN WATER!!!


JLB

There is only one baptism, just like the Bible says. Jesus' baptism is the rule to follow. He was baptized in water and spirit. That is the baptism that is one....and which should be followed. This is why St. Paul says there is only one baptism. After the Messianic promise has been fulfilled, haven't you noticed that the Apostles were able to baptize with BOTH water and spirit whereas John could only baptize with water? Why do you think John was able to baptize only with water; yet, all the Apostles were able to baptize with both water and spirit?
 

JLB

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John Zane,notice that John 3 mentions the new birth in the context of feminine or maternal imagery (the mother’s womb), whereas 1 Peter gives a masculine or paternal image (the "seed" of the word of God). The new birth is not water alone, nor the word alone, but the "washing of water with the word" (Eph 5:26). They should be united, not pitted against one another. In fact, Peter’s readers had been led by hearing the word to embrace new birth in baptism. Their new birth in baptism was the result of the word being implanted earlier—a spiritual "conception" in more than one sense.
Even if the images did conflict, this would not invalidate one or the other. After all, Scripture sometimes uses the same image for different aspects of divine truth. The Church is said to be built on the foundation of Christ (1 Cor 3:11), the apostles and prophets (Eph 2:20, Rev 21:14), and Peter in particular (Matt 16:18). The image of a lion is applied to both the Lord and the devil. There is no reason why birth imagery should not be applied to both water and the word. As it is, though, the happy complementarity of the two images—a paternal and a maternal one—powerfully brings out both aspects of the new birth.

The "washing of water with the word" reference has nothing to do with baptism.

This is a "typology" reference of an old testament utensil associated with the tabernacle known as the Laver.

The Laver was a basin that was lined with the brass mirrors and filled with water. The priest would go to the Laver and look into the basin and see where he needed to wash before entering the presence of God. He would look into the mirror, but wash with the water.

The mirror is a type of The word.

The water is a type of The Spirit.

The "washing of water with the word" reference has nothing to do with baptism.

Again, baptism is not about the new birth, it's about death and resurrection.

After your are born again, now your are eligible for baptism.


1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

Your are born again from the incorruptible seed of The word of God. The preaching of the Gospel.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

You are born again by believing the Gospel!


For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 1 Corinthians 1:17

If you are born again by being baptized, why would Paul say something like that.


JLB

Water baptism came from God. It did not come from any man or any Church...but from God Himself. Jesus was baptised in BOTH Water and Spirit, and Jesus is the role model for us to follow. Afterall, He did say that He is the WAY. What good is being a follower of Christ if one can't even do what Christ did, which is be baptized in water and spirit.

As for St. Paul, nowhere did St. Paul ever say to get rid of baptism. Saying, "Christ sent me not to baptize" does not mean that baptism is done away with. Nor does it mean that baptism is NOT important. The FACT that St. Paul actually stated that "Christ sent him not to baptize" showed that baptism indeed came from God and not from man. Also, the FACT that St. Paul baptized showed that he also did not consider baptism irrelevant (See 1 Corinthians 1:16).

Furthermore, water baptism only started in the New Testament. Water baptism is not found in the Old Testament. In fact, there is no such thing as baptism in the Old Testament.

Baptism replaced circumcision. In the Old Testament, God told the Israelites to circumcize their male children as a sign that they are His chosen people. Those who were not circumcised were not God's chosen people. In the New Testament, those who are baptized with water and spirit became God's sons and daughters. They enter into His family. Scripture shows that water baptism replaced circumcision (See Col. 2:11-12). In the Old Testament, circumcision is the covenant made by God as a sign of God's chosen people. In the New Testament, water baptism is the new covenant made by God as a sign of God's sons and daughters (new creatures in Christ). Through baptism, we are made into new creatures ---sons and daughters of God.

Our baptism is connected to the baptism of Christ in which we received BOTH Water and Spirit just like Christ.....exactly like Christ, our only role model. When Christ told His Apostles to go out and baptize all nations, it was a baptism that also included water and not just the spirit alone or water alone. It is a baptism of both water and spirit.



There is only one baptism, just like the Bible says. Jesus' baptism is the rule to follow. He was baptized in water and spirit. That is the baptism that is one....and which should be followed. This is why St. Paul says there is only one baptism. After the Messianic promise has been fulfilled, haven't you noticed that the Apostles were able to baptize with BOTH water and spirit whereas John could only baptize with water? Why do you think John was able to baptize only with water; yet, all the Apostles were able to baptize with both water and spirit?


After you are Baptized in water, you need to go out into the wilderness and fast for 40 days, if Jesus is your example, otherwise you are a hypocrite!
 

Selene

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Apr 12, 2010
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After you are Baptized in water, you need to go out into the wilderness and fast for 40 days, if Jesus is your example, otherwise you are a hypocrite!

I was baptized in water and the Holy Spirit just like Christ.....and actually yes, we also fast for 40 days. As a matter of fact, where I am from, we even carry a heavy cross and plant it on top of a mountain. Below is a weblink of what my people do on every Good Friday. As you can see, we carry a 500 pound cross up a mountain. We do this every year. Christ carried a cross. So, do we. However, we don't crucify ourselves because Christ did not crucify Himself.

http://www.mvguam.com/local/news/23051-story-of-the-good-friday-cross.html


It seems that you find baptism by water irrelevant. Remember, that water baptism was ordered by God, not by man.



For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

You are born again by believing the Gospel!

Actually, no.....you are not born again by believing in the Gospel. Why? Because even the devil believes in God and can even quote the Gospel. And I don't think the devil is "born again." See the Scriptures below.

Luke 4:9-11 Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here. "For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you,' "and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' "

So, you see...even the devil can quote scripture. Here, Satan was quoting Psalm 91:11-12. Satan can quote scripture more than man; therefore, knowledge of scripture will not bring you into Heaven. Does the devil believe in God? Of course he does. He knew God because he was once an angel in Heaven.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

So, you see....saying that you believe in God is not enough because even demons believe in God and demons will not enter God's Kingdom. What St. James is saying is that belief in God is not enough. Our deeds need to match that belief to show that we follow God's will. That is the difference. The demons believe but don't follow God's will. Only a new creature in Christ does more than believe.....they follow God's will.

A person is "born again" when they are baptized in water and the Holy Spirit. Part of what you said is true. You said that baptism is about death and resurrection. Through baptism, the old self dies and a new creature is resurrected. This new creature is one with Christ. This is what is meant by being "born again." We are born into a new life.....a new creature in Christ, no longer the old self of sin, but a son or daughter of God.
 

JLB

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Mar 25, 2012
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I was baptized in water and the Holy Spirit just like Christ.....and actually yes, we also fast for 40 days. As a matter of fact, where I am from, we even carry a heavy cross and plant it on top of a mountain. Below is a weblink of what my people do on every Good Friday. As you can see, we carry a 500 pound cross up a mountain. We do this every year. Christ carried a cross. So, do we. However, we don't crucify ourselves because Christ did not crucify Himself.

http://www.mvguam.co...iday-cross.html


It seems that you find baptism by water irrelevant. Remember, that water baptism was ordered by God, not by man.





Actually, no.....you are not born again by believing in the Gospel. Why? Because even the devil believes in God and can even quote the Gospel. And I don't think the devil is "born again." See the Scriptures below.

Luke 4:9-11 Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here. "For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you,' "and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' "

So, you see...even the devil can quote scripture. Here, Satan was quoting Psalm 91:11-12. Satan can quote scripture more than man; therefore, knowledge of scripture will not bring you into Heaven. Does the devil believe in God? Of course he does. He knew God because he was once an angel in Heaven.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

So, you see....saying that you believe in God is not enough because even demons believe in God and demons will not enter God's Kingdom. What St. James is saying is that belief in God is not enough. Our deeds need to match that belief to show that we follow God's will. That is the difference. The demons believe but don't follow God's will. Only a new creature in Christ does more than believe.....they follow God's will.

A person is "born again" when they are baptized in water and the Holy Spirit. Part of what you said is true. You said that baptism is about death and resurrection. Through baptism, the old self dies and a new creature is resurrected. This new creature is one with Christ. This is what is meant by being "born again." We are born into a new life.....a new creature in Christ, no longer the old self of sin, but a son or daughter of God.

So, you see....saying that you believe in God is not enough because even demons believe in God and demons will not enter God's Kingdom.

Halleluiah! You finally got! Thank you Jesus!

You must be born of water, means natural child birth, MAKING DEMONS INELIGIBLE FOR THE NEW BIRTH!

As I said many times, every believer needs to be baptized in water.

They also need to be baptized in The Holy Spirit and receive their new prayer language, speaking in tongues.

For flesh gives birth to flesh = natural child birth

Spirit gives birth to spirit = Born Again



JLB
 

neophyte

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Apr 25, 2012
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John Zane, In reference to your post#70 about your theory of the Holy Spirit coming "upon " or "inside" doesn't make any sense. Again your personal interpretation doesn't cut it. The Holy Bible tells us this in Luke 1:35 ; "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come" upon" thee, ....... " We all know that the Holy Spirit was "inside" Mary.
 

John Zain

Newbie trainee
Sep 16, 2010
750
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San Diego, CA
John Zane, In reference to your post#70 about your theory of the Holy Spirit coming "upon " or "inside" doesn't make any sense.
Again your personal interpretation doesn't cut it. The Holy Bible tells us this in Luke 1:35 ;
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come" upon" thee, ....... "
We all know that the Holy Spirit was "inside" Mary.
The Holy Spirit was inside Mary? Do you mean He was inside "that Holy One" who was inside Mary?
The Holy Spirit came upon Mary to perform a miracle, which probably was ...
He put a male sperm in her ovaries so she would conceive normally (see Luke 1:31).

They also need to be baptized in The Holy Spirit and receive their new prayer language, speaking in tongues.
This certainly is more than advisable ... but not necessary for salavtion.
Smith Wigglesworth, the world-famous healing evangelist, some 70 years ago, said:
"If you don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you are living in a weak and impoverished condition."
May I offer my own personal translation of this?
If you don't have it, you are at a tremendous disadvantage regarding
dealing with Satan's demons and many other spiritual things.