A closer look at "baptizo" (to baptize)

[John Zain]

Baptizo
n to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
n to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
n to overwhelm

“Before the emergence of the holiness movement in the mid 19th century and Pentecostalism in the early 20th century, most denominations believed that Christians received the baptism with the Holy Spirit either upon conversion and regeneration or through rites of Christian initiation. Since the growth and spread of Pentecostal and charismatic churches, however, the belief that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an experience distinct from regeneration has come into increasing prominence.”
… From: http://en.wikipedia....the_Holy_Spirit

When the Holy Spirit comes UPON you, it’s like He envelopes, surrounds, overwhelms you.
It’s like you are immersed in the Holy Spirit. Here are 2 passages describing it:

“… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… you shall receive (spiritual) power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:5,8)

“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (the Gentiles), as upon us (the Jews) at the beginning.
Then I remember the word of the Lord, how He said,
‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
… God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 11:15-17)
This “gift” of Holy Spirit baptism is not salvation … it is a special anointing after salvation.

The above is much different than when one is born-again at the moment of salvation
… when the Holy Spirit ENTERS you and remains INSIDE you:
“And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)
The Holy Spirit is INSIDE born-again Christians:
John 14:17, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16.
.

 

[aspen]

Baptism by Spirit and water is necessary for salvation

 

[John Zain]

Baptism by Spirit and water is necessary for salvation

You have no idea what my other thread is about ... and you are wrong on both counts here!
Gee, have a wonderful day, Advanced Member.

 

[Foreigner]

You have no idea what my other thread is about ... and you are wrong on both counts here!
Gee, have a wonderful day, Advanced Member.

-- After a quote like that, why should anyone care what you think?
It was a genuine answer - a good point to begin discussion - but instead of helping him to understand, you criticize and ridicule him.
It makes me sad to think you likely talk to the children in your profile picture that way, as well.




.

 

[John Zain]

It was a genuine answer - a good point to begin discussion

It was a genuine answer for a child in kindergarden, but not for a highly-esteemed Advanced Member.
Where's the trash can for expired member's cards?

 

[Foreigner]

Man, I do feel sorry for those two children.

 

[JLB]

Baptism by Spirit and water is necessary for salvation

Can you give me a scripture for this statement.


Thanks, JLB

 

[aspen]

Can you give me a scripture for this statement.


Thanks, JLB

John 3:5

 

[John Zain]

Now are we ready to move down a little deeper into these waters?
(no put intended because this has absolutely nothing to do with water baptism).

The Scripture PASSAGES below explain this baptism with the Holy Spirit.
And the important DETAILS in each passage are shown in the chart below.
Please notice how these details are so inter-connected (linked together) in the chart.
And realize that all the details of an event are seldom recorded every time the event occurs.

1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---

 

[JLB]

Baptism by Spirit and water is necessary for salvation

Aspen2 wrote -

Baptism by Spirit and water is necessary for salvation


5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


No mention of baptism in this scripture.

Do you understand the term born of water? It has absolutely nothing to do with baptism!

It is a reference to natural child birth. When a child is born, the water sack that it was born in breaks.

To qualify to be "born again" one must first be born. Just because "spirits" hear the Gospel does not allow them redemption.

The next verse explains for flesh gives birth to flesh! Born of water means natural child birth. That which is born of The Spirit is spirit.


So, we have the natural birth and the spiritual birth laid out in these scriptures, however no mention of Baptism!


Thanks, JLB

 

[Selene]

Aspen2 wrote -

Baptism by Spirit and water is necessary for salvation


5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


No mention of baptism in this scripture.

Do you understand the term born of water? It has absolutely nothing to do with baptism!

It is a reference to natural child birth. When a child is born, the water sack that it was born in breaks.

To qualify to be "born again" one must first be born. Just because "spirits" hear the Gospel does not allow them redemption.

The next verse explains for flesh gives birth to flesh! Born of water means natural child birth. That which is born of The Spirit is spirit.


So, we have the natural birth and the spiritual birth laid out in these scriptures, however no mention of Baptism!


Thanks, JLB

To be born of water and spirit is baptism. What else did Jesus meant when He said you must be born of water and spirit? When a person is baptize with water, he/she receives the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).

God ordered St. John to baptize with water, and Jesus who came after him baptized with the Spirit (Matthew 3:11). It is through baptism that the person becomes one with Christ (Romans 6:4) and become a new creature (See Romans 6:4 and 2 Corinthians 5:17). As Scripture says, all things become new through baptism (born of water and spirit).

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2 and Selene are correct, but I dont see the conflict John Zain, I tend to agree with you as well, when Jesus was baptised in water, the spirit came upon Him.
I think the issue may be that it doesnt always happen that those baptised by water receive the spirit.

 

[JLB]

To be born of water and spirit is baptism. What else did Jesus meant when He said you must be born of water and spirit? When a person is baptize with water, he/she receives the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).

God ordered St. John to baptize with water, and Jesus who came after him baptized with the Spirit (Matthew 3:11). It is through baptism that the person becomes one with Christ (Romans 6:4) and become a new creature (See Romans 6:4 and 2 Corinthians 5:17). As Scripture says, all things become new through baptism (born of water and spirit).

Selene wrote -

To be born of water and spirit is baptism. What else did Jesus meant when He said you must be born of water and spirit?


I have been baptized in water and I have been baptized with The Holy Spirit, which is completely different.

However, that is not what this scripture is saying. This scripture is about being born in natural child birth and being born again by the regeneration of The Spirit.

In natural child birth we are born of water (mother's water sack breaks at child birth) for flesh gives birth to flesh!

Remember, Jesus is explaining a new concept to Nicodemus, who has just asked about being born again, so He explains by using a natural birth scenario as an illustration.

Being born of water refers to natural child birth!

Being born of The Spirit refers to being born again.


This scripture is not speaking of Baptism!


Let's look at another scripture that is similar.


1 John 5:5-7

. 5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God ? 6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify : 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood ; and the three are in agreement.



This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.


Same issue here. This scripture is testifying to the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ!

"Came by water and blood" is a reference to the fact that Mary's water sack and her hymen broke when Jesus came into the world!

... not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

This also is not about baptism. It is about natural child birth.

.There are three distinct and different baptisms in scripture!


Thanks, JLB

 

[Selene]

Selene wrote -

To be born of water and spirit is baptism. What else did Jesus meant when He said you must be born of water and spirit?


I have been baptized in water and I have been baptized with The Holy Spirit, which is completely different.

However, that is not what this scripture is saying. This scripture is about being born in natural child birth and being born again by the regeneration of The Spirit.

In natural child birth we are born of water (mother's water sack breaks at child birth) for flesh gives birth to flesh!

Remember, Jesus is explaining a new concept to Nicodemus, who has just asked about being born again, so He explains by using a natural birth scenario as an illustration.

Being born of water refers to natural child birth!

Being born of The Spirit refers to being born again.


This scripture is not speaking of Baptism!


Let's look at another scripture that is similar.


1 John 5:5-7

. 5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God ? 6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify : 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood ; and the three are in agreement.



This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.


Same issue here. This scripture is testifying to the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ!

"Came by water and blood" is a reference to the fact that Mary's water sack and her hymen broke when Jesus came into the world!

... not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

This also is not about baptism. It is about natural child birth.

.There are three distinct and different baptisms in scripture!


Thanks, JLB

And Jesus was not referring to be born again from the womb. He was referring to a water baptism. He was referring to baptism. Water baptism was ordered by God. It was never a man-made thing. God ordered St. John to do water baptism and God never recinded that order. When a person is baptized, the spirit comes down on him/her just like in Christ's baptism at the Jordan River. His was a baptism of both water and spirit. Christ said one must be born of water AND spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Water symbolizes the cleansing of sins and the death of the old person while the spirit means that the person is born into a new creature in Christ. He/She is now a son and daughter of God. Just as the spirit came upon Jesus during His baptism, God declared that this is His son. It is the same with us when we are baptized. The spirit also comes down upon us and God declares us as his children.

 

[John Zain]

When a person is baptized with water, he/she receives the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).

It would be very difficult to find a more unscriptural statement than this one above!

How many verses would you like to see that show ...
the born-again experience always comes BEFORE a person possibly chooses to be water baptized?

Water baptism is not even necessary for salvation.
One simple obvious proof of this is ...
Paul said, “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17).

Scripture says we are justified by faith alone, not by works (Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[JLB]

And Jesus was not referring to be born again from the womb. He was referring to a water baptism. He was referring to baptism. Water baptism was ordered by God. It was never a man-made thing. God ordered St. John to do water baptism and God never recinded that order. When a person is baptized, the spirit comes down on him/her just like in Christ's baptism at the Jordan River. His was a baptism of both water and spirit. Christ said one must be born of water AND spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Water symbolizes the cleansing of sins and the death of the old person while the spirit means that the person is born into a new creature in Christ. He/She is now a son and daughter of God. Just as the spirit came upon Jesus during His baptism, God declared that this is His son. It is the same with us when we are baptized. The spirit also comes down upon us and God declares us as his children.

And Jesus was not referring to be born again from the womb. Being born of The Spirit refers to being born again. Being born of water refers to natural child birth.
That is why He said for flesh gives birth to flesh! Flesh gives birth to flesh refers to natural child birth!


Water baptism was ordered by God... Baptism was ordered by God, I agree, but which one, there are three.


When the disciples were baptized the Holy Spirit did not come down upon them. It wasn't until the day of Pentecost that the Holy Spirit came down upon them.

Here's another one -

Acts 19:2-6

2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed ?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized ?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

The Baptism of The Holy Spirit is AFTER you are born again - for it is written ... And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins." Mark 2:22


Water symbolizes the cleansing of sins and the death of the old person while the spirit means that the person is born into a new creature in Christ. He/She is now a son and daughter of God. Just as the spirit came upon Jesus during His baptism, God declared that this is His son. It is the same with us when we are baptized. The spirit also comes down upon us and God declares us as his children.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. At that moment they were children of God, they were born again THEN when Paul laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came upon them.
The order is - 1st Born again After that THEN The Holy Spirit Baptism.


Example - Acts 10:44

44 While Peter was still speaking these words,(The Gospel) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Here The Baptism of The Holy Spirit came BEFOREwater baptism! BEFORE WATER BAPTISM!

The Baptism of The Holy Spirit can come Before or After water baptism.

This is clear and indisputable scriptural proof that water baptism is not the same as The Baptism of The Holy Spirit.

.... for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."


JLB

 

[John Zain]

It's good to discuss one passage at a time ... here's one:

“… when they (Peter & John) had come down,
(they) prayed for them* that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
For as yet He (the Holy Spirit) had fallen upon none of them*.
They* had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Then they laid hands on them*, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of hands the Holy Spirit was given,
he offered them money, saying, ‘Give me this power also,
that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.’ ”
(Acts 8:14-19) * the Samarians

 

[Selene]

It would be very difficult to find a more unscriptural statement than this one above!

How many verses would you like to see that show ...
the born-again experience always comes BEFORE a person possibly chooses to be water baptized?

Water baptism is not even necessary for salvation.
One simple obvious proof of this is ...
Paul said, “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17).

Scripture says we are justified by faith alone, not by works (Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9).

First of all, I did provide scripture. I also don't see you listing those verses. Water baptism was ordered by God. It was never a man-made thing. In fact, Jesus Himself was baptized and He allowed all His disciples to baptize others. And who is the example we should follow? If water baptism was good enough for Jesus, then I will certainly follow Him because He is the Way.

Secondly, when St. Paul says that Christ did not send him to baptize, he is not saying that baptism is not necessary. As a matter of fact, St. Paul was baptized (See Acts 9:18). If St. Paul felt that baptism was not necessary, then why did he undergo baptism? Also, St. Paul baptized others (See 1 Corinthians 1:16).

And Jesus was not referring to be born again from the womb. Being born of The Spirit refers to being born again. Being born of water refers to natural child birth.
That is why He said for flesh gives birth to flesh! Flesh gives birth to flesh refers to natural child birth!


Water baptism was ordered by God... Baptism was ordered by God, I agree, but which one, there are three.


When the disciples were baptized the Holy Spirit did not come down upon them. It wasn't until the day of Pentecost that the Holy Spirit came down upon them.

Here's another one -

Acts 19:2-6

2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed ?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized ?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

The Baptism of The Holy Spirit is AFTER you are born again - for it is written ... And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins." Mark 2:22


Water symbolizes the cleansing of sins and the death of the old person while the spirit means that the person is born into a new creature in Christ. He/She is now a son and daughter of God. Just as the spirit came upon Jesus during His baptism, God declared that this is His son. It is the same with us when we are baptized. The spirit also comes down upon us and God declares us as his children.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. At that moment they were children of God, they were born again THEN when Paul laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came upon them.
The order is - 1st Born again After that THEN The Holy Spirit Baptism.


Example - Acts 10:44

44 While Peter was still speaking these words,(The Gospel) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Here The Baptism of The Holy Spirit came BEFOREwater baptism! BEFORE WATER BAPTISM!

The Baptism of The Holy Spirit can come Before or After water baptism.

This is clear and indisputable scriptural proof that water baptism is not the same as The Baptism of The Holy Spirit.

.... for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."


JLB

We believe in only one baptism just as St. Paul says (Ephesians 4:5). The Baptism that our Lord went through in the Jordan River, which was both water and spirit. It is a baptism when God declares that we are His sons and daughters.

The Apostles were already baptized with water BEFORE the Holy Spirit came to them at Pentecost. In fact, the Apostles were even baptizing people with water. John's baptism was only for the forgiveness of sins. But Christ's baptism at the Jordan River was a bit different because Christ did not have any sins. Christ shows us that in our baptism, we would be born into a new creature...a new life as sons and daughters of God. It is a baptism where the old sinful self must die and the new creature in Christ in us rises from the waters. When Christ rose from the waters, a voice in Heaven said "This is my Son, whom I am well pleased." The same happens to us when we were baptized. The Holy Spirit comes upon us and God said, "This is my son/daughter." The Holy Spirit comes upon us, remains in us, and plants the seed of faith in us. The seed of faith in us grows as we live out the promises of our baptism and constantly look to God for it is only in God that strengthens our faith. So, when Christ said one must be born again of water and spirit...He was referring to baptism.

God ordered St. John the baptist to baptize for the forgiveness of sins, but also to identify who Christ is.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

As you see in Scripture, it was God who ordered St. John the Baptist to baptize. It was never a man-made thing. God never rescinded that order. In fact, Jesus allowed His disciples to continue water baptism (John 3:22).

 

[JLB]

.... for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

The scripture is clear water baptism is separate from the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

Not many days from now! A different time and a different baptism!


Do you believe in One God or 3 Gods or The Godhead, which is the threefold fullness of God in One.

1 John 5:7 - and these three are one, The Father, The Word and The Spirit!


You are refusing to take in the whole counsel of God in this matter, therefore you are being robbed of the powerful baptism of The Holy Spirit!


I am sorry I failed you, JLB

 

[Selene]

.... for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

The scripture is clear water baptism is separate from the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

Not many days from now! A different time and a different baptism!


Do you believe in One God or 3 Gods or The Godhead, which is the threefold fullness of God in One.

1 John 5:7 - and these three are one, The Father, The Word and The Spirit!


You are refusing to take in the whole counsel of God in this matter, therefore you are being robbed of the powerful baptism of The Holy Spirit!


I am sorry I failed you, JLB

Christ's baptism at the Jordan River was one - water and spirit. That is the example we follow. Christ said, you must have both water and spirit to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.