This is true! I believe the RC practice falls under the "vain repetitions" catagory. But even here the Holy Spirit is not out of the picture entirely. God frustrates every plan of man to organize Him out of the church!
The state of the church
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This is true! I believe the RC practice falls under the "vain repetitions" catagory. But even here the Holy Spirit is not out of the picture entirely. God frustrates every plan of man to organize Him out of the church!
This is true! I believe the RC practice falls under the "vain repetitions" catagory. But even here the Holy Spirit is not out of the picture entirely. God frustrates every plan of man to organize Him out of the church!
John 6:53-58, 66-67
"So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.' After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, 'Will you also go away?'"
When John 6 is prayerfully read, we see how Jesus gradually teaches the faithful about the life-giving bread from heaven that He will give to the world (through the multiplication of the loaves, the reference to the raining manna given to the Israelites, and finally to the bread that Jesus will give which is His flesh). When the Jews question Jesus about how he could possibly give them His flesh to eat, Jesus becomes more literal in His explanation. Jesus says several times that we must eat [, look it up in a Greek/English dictionary and you will see that the word for eat is ' phago"] His flesh to gain eternal life (which literally means "to chew") How do you Foreigner chew something symbolically? Explain that one please.
When the Jews further question the strangeness of His teaching, Jesus uses an even more literal verb (in Greek, "trogo") to describe how we must eat His flesh to have eternal life (which literally means "to gnaw or crunch"). The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (Matt. 24:38; John 13:18) and it is always used literally (physically eating). Protestants are unable to provide a single example of where "trogo" is ever used in a symbolic sense. To drive His point home, Jesus says that His flesh is real food indeed, and His blood is real drink indeed (Jesus says nothing about the bread being a symbol of His body and blood).
What is perhaps most compelling about the foregoing passages is what happens at the end of Jesus' discourse. We know that the Jews understood Jesus as speaking literally. This is demonstrated by their question, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?" They could not conceive of why consuming Jesus' flesh was life-giving and how they could possibly do such a thing. We also know that Jesus responds to their question by being even more literal about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. But we learn at the end of Jesus' discourse that many of His followers, because of the difficulty of His teaching, decided to no longer follow Him - and Jesus let them go. Then He turned to His apostles and asked them, "Will you also go away?"
Would Jesus, the Incarnate Word of God who became man to save humanity, allow his followers to leave Him if they misunderstood His teaching? Of course not, especially when the teaching regarded how they were to obtain eternal life which was at the heart of Jesus' mission. Jesus always explained the meaning of His teachings to His disciples. Mark 4:34. Jesus did not say, "Hey, guys, come back here, you got it all wrong." He didn't do this because they did not have it all wrong. They understood correctly - we must eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life within us. Foreigner, you and other Prots contend that the Catholic offering of bread and wine in the Mass is just a symbol (and does not miraculously become the body and blood of Christ through the actions of the priest acting "in persona Christi") must address John 6:53-58, 66-67 - why Jesus used the words He did, and why Jesus allowed His followers to leave Him if they understood Him correctly (which is the only time in Scripture where Christ allows His disciples to leave Him based upon a doctrinal teaching). Your answers please.
Actually a priest of the RC rite has been given the power by holy Rome to magically trans-substantiate the wine and bread into the actual body and blood of Christ. The reasoning is that if you eat the mass every day you will always have Jesus in you....at least until it passes on through.
So the priests sacrifice anew the host (victim) to God every day...over and over again.
The rc's use Jesus' miracle of transforming water into wine to justify the magic...but the priests only power is over the minds of the simple ones who actually believe in magic.
The only legitimate division in the Church is truth from lies,the former should always seek to seperate itself from the latter.
-- You seem to miss an important point.
Accepting the scripture the way you interpret means says that anyone who does not eat Jesus via the Catholic church "has no life in them."
That means that the millions of Christians that have lived between the time that Jesus walked the earth and today who brought people to Jesus, prophecied, healed the sick, etc. were not actually saved and are not going to heaven because they didn't have the JC Happy Meal on a regular basis. Billy Graham, C.S. Lewis, Smith Wigglesworth, etc. etc. etc......all lost because they did not partake in communion via the Catholic church.
That is obviously is not the case.
The "has no life in them" portion was voided the moment they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God living/dwelling inside them, instructing, guiding, comforting, encouraging, loving, carrying on a relationship that is as intimate as the Christian wishes to strive for.
Translation: While we may break bread and drink wine (or grape juice) in remembrance of what Jesus did.
But it is not the actual body and blood of Jesus. There is no need. Jesus is already living inside you.
Soul Food hasn't anything to do with regular food that just passes through you. You're dealing with God not with mere-finite men when you partake of the Holy Eucharist.
You must accept the Fullness of Christ , Jesus is more than a Holy Bible Alone , Islam and Judaism also have holy books .
You must accept the Fullness of Christ , Jesus is more than a Holy Bible Alone , Islam and Judaism also have holy books .
Not sure how that addresses what I said, so I will give you another opportunity.
You posted the scripture:
So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.' After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, 'Will you also go away?'"
I responsed with:
-- You seem to miss an important point.
Accepting the scripture the way you interpret means says that anyone who does not eat Jesus via the Catholic church "has no life in them."
That means that the millions of Christians that have lived between the time that Jesus walked the earth and today who brought people to Jesus, prophecied, healed the sick, etc. were not actually saved and are not going to heaven because they didn't have the JC Happy Meal on a regular basis. Billy Graham, C.S. Lewis, Smith Wigglesworth, etc. etc. etc......all lost because they did not partake in communion via the Catholic church.
That is obviously is not the case.
The "has no life in them" portion was voided the moment they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God living/dwelling inside them, instructing, guiding, comforting, encouraging, loving, carrying on a relationship that is as intimate as the Christian wishes to strive for.
Translation: While we may break bread and drink wine (or grape juice) in remembrance of what Jesus did.
But it is not the actual body and blood of Jesus. There is no need. Jesus is already living inside you.
Care to actually post something to address that?
Go over to the other Thread-' The air we breath'- everything that Catholics believe about the Eucharist is thoroughly explained there, it explains what Catholics really believe ,not what you think they believe , especially about what Jesus and St. Paul actually taught about the Holy Eucharist. After you read that, then i will answer any question that you want.No sense in you asking me questions on the Eucharist if you have only a false understanding of Catholic appreciation and understanding.
I have not only read what Catholics believe, I have lived it.
You minimize who the Holy Spirit is and fail to accept the fact that the Holy Spirit living inside is GOD living inside you.
And if God is living inside you, directing, instructing. guiding, loving, then there is no need to eat him.
It really IS that simple.
You should worry less about Catholic doctrine and brush up on who the Holy Spirit actually it.
From what I can see, it will be a real eye-opener for you.
You minimize who the Holy Spirit is and fail to accept the fact that the Holy Spirit living inside is GOD living inside you.
And if God is living inside you, directing, instructing. guiding, loving, then there is no need to eat him.
It really IS that simple.
You should worry less about Catholic doctrine and brush up on who the Holy Spirit actually it.
From what I can see, it will be a real eye-opener for you.
You could care less of my opinion of the Christian Faith , so i'll let a former Baptist friend [ i belonged to same Baptist non-denom Fundamentalist/ evangelical church ] about a letter he wrote-
In a recent letter to a man who said it was just "me and the Bible", I wrote the following challenge: "You say you have no time to read other books, only the Bible. You say when you read the Bible it is just you and the Holy Spirit. Very cozy, but are you correct? No. Little do you realize--maybe because you don't read and study widely-- that even in your intimate moments with the Bible and the Holy Spirit, you are utterly dependent on the Church. Deny it though you may, it stands irrefutable, Between you and the Bible is the Church! If you were given the original inspired writings from the pen of the apostles, the original autographs of the New Testament, you wouldn't have a clue as to what they said. Your first problem would be the fact that the hundreds of writings before you are in an ancient foreign language. Can you read minuscule Greek and ancient Hebrw and Aramaic? You forget that the Bible did not just drop into bookstores prepackaged in English and leather. Even if you did know Hebrew and Greek, it wouldn't have been the Holy Spirit who taught you, but man, a Catholic scholar, no doubt. Of the hundreds of documents before you, would you have known which were inspired and which were not? Would you be adequate for the task of discernment? No, again you are dependant upon the Church and her bishops. Next, how did that nice Bible get into your hands so you can enthrone it in your heart? It got there throught the agency of the Church! More precisely, from Catholic monks. Who translated it meticulously by hand in candlelight? Who copied it into the many languages of the world? The Catholic Church preserved and protected the Bible, with a scrib's loyalty and dedication, so that is would make it through the darkness brought on by the barbarian hordes from the north. How many of these Fathers and their flocks gave their lives to preserve the Bible so you can read it today? And what if you were in another century? Would you be able to read, since the vast majority of people have always been illiterate? Before the printing press, would you have been able to afford the three years' wages to buy your own personal copy? And if you couldn't have your own copy, or were illiterate, how would you have known the Scriptures? From the Church, right? Right. The Church would have read it to you during the Mass.
"Do you read the Bible with an unbiased purity of mind, or are you influenced by certain doctrinal presuppositions, and where did they come from? So, there you sit reading your Bible and thinking it is only you and the Holy Spirit, but there is much more involved, brother, and it would behoove you to remove your head from the sand and acknowledge the Catholic Church that gave you the book. You sit with translators and traditions on your right and on you left. The less you know of history, the original languages, the culture of the biblical times, the traditions of the Jews, the teaching of the Father, the formulations of the creeds and councils, etc., the more vulnerable you are to the misunderstanding, deception, oversimplification, unnecessary complication and heresy."
So how can someone who eats symbolic bread be guilty of murdering God? How can he be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord unless... you know... the Lord is actually THERE?Moreover if one can get sick and die by eating bread while in a state of grave sin, then there would be lots of sick people falling over at the waffle house. (I had to say that again.
[background=#eeeeee]1 Cor 1:2 (Douay Rheims)
[sup]2[/sup] To the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in every place of theirs and ours.Show with Haydock Commentary or the Latin Vulgate BibleBible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com [/background]
... the Corinthians are already Christians. Since all Scripture is instructive (2 Tim 3:16) then the warning must refer to some other aspect of the Lord's Body, otherwise there would be no instruction and 1 Cor. 11 would not be Scripture.5. BIOLOGYNow, it is true that Christ is one body with many members. To use modern biology, we are all members, cells, in Christ's Body. Now what happens to a cell when it no longer partakes of the blood of the host? It goes to the reserves and consumes the fat. And when that's gone?
[background=#eeeeee]John 6:53-56 (Douay Rheims)
[sup]53[/sup] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Haydock Commentary or the Latin Vulgate BibleBible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com [/background]
So we see there's nothing cannibalistic about the Real Presence. You're not a cannibal on account of your muscle cell eating your fat or drinking your blood. So it is with you and Christ, for you are part of His Body. And if you don't partake of what He gives you, you will not have life--that is, Him--within you.Taste and see the goodness of the Lord!More answers here and also here.
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The modern church has plenty wrong with it.
But we are not nearly as bad as the First Corinthian Church.
If it could be done wrong , they did it.
Yet Paul said "they lacked no spiritual gifts"
But we are not nearly as bad as the First Corinthian Church.
If it could be done wrong , they did it.
Yet Paul said "they lacked no spiritual gifts"
The difference is in the leadership and the direction. There was a unity and a reality to the early church that we no longer have. So we have the same problems...but without the solutions. Instead we continue to splinter into more denominations...every one doing what is right in their own eyes.
Here is an example of modern evangelism:
A person asks someone who has flown ..."what laws must you follow when you fly?"
The man answers "you must put on a seat belt when you take-off and land"
Then the "evangelist" goes preaching that in order to fly all we need to do is to wear a seat belt. Many subsequent deaths are then discovered with the bodies on the canyon floor found wearing seatbelts.
Only the Catholic/Apostolic Church since its conception has never changed or rejected any Church doctrine , it has always been the very same doctrinal teaching in the 1st through all centuries, until Jesus returns and then take His Church to heaven . It is the only One True Church because of this.
The RC church literally killed off any church it saw as a competitor. The history of the world is not that the saints always triumph...but rather that the saints are overcome by persecution in this world. The RC church has keys all right...but these are jailer's keys to the cells of prisons reserved for those who PRACTICE the truth.
-- Uh huh, so you say.
In order for that to be true, then anyone who doesn't belong to that church would be inhabited by the Holy Spirit.
That would mean then that anyone outside the Catholic church is not saved.
So tell me Neophyte.....is that the case?
Sorry neophyte, that statement is pure fiction. And if you don't know it's pure fiction, you need to take control of your own life and go do some real research into how the doctrines of your church over many centuries, have moved further and further away from scripture. Tradition was top of Jesus Christ's hitlist when it came to the religionists of His day.
Matthew 23:'... 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men ...'
The whole of the chapter is relevant to the religious system which you refer to as 'church'.
You mean you are not a member of the body of Christ?
Did you see what I did there?
The worldly Church which is in a place or a building is not the Church.
The body of Christ which are those born of Spirit and Truth are the true Church and the true worshipper.
Christ taught this himself to the samaritan woman by the well in John 4.
[sup]20 [/sup]Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
[sup]21 [/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
[sup]22 [/sup]Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
[sup]23 [/sup]But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[sup]24 [/sup]God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The Church is not a building and it is not found in one place. The body of Christ the true worshippers are the people and they worship God everywhere in Spirit and Truth.
When Christ spoke about the temple being torn down and rebuilt in three days... he spoke of his own body.
Because God dwells with his people and in us. So the body of Christ the Church is NOT manmade it born out of truth and spirit.
Christ made it clear that his Kingdom was not of this world.
So I believe Christ is the one teaching who and what the true Church really is.
Only Jesus can judge a man's heart, we can't judge ourselfs. The Catholic Church admits it doesn't have the corner market on Jesus by itself , it recognizes that many outside the Church are saved, including those that have never through no fault of their own have never heard of the "Good News' of Jesus.His Church only Alone contains the "Fullness of the Faith.
Regardless of your exaggerated profile of your version of anti-Catholic history, the Catholic Church is and always will be perpetually protected by the promise of Jesus to protect the Apostolic/Catholic Church from teaching doctrinal error.
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The only words from Jesus about His Church members is that it would contain " good and bad" members.
Was Judas a good or bad member? Did not Jesus hand- pick Judas?
God's Church on earth is as a hospital for sinners.
Of course His Church on earth as made mistakes ,very bad mistakes and it has admitted that it has, and Jesus doesn't expect any different being that it is a humanistic Church made up of all sinners including the Pope who admits he is a sinner.
By the way, the pope does not claim to be the successor of Christ [ No one is Christ's successor ] The pope is the successor of Peter, the first earthly head of the Church. Peter was a sinner personlly chosen by Jesus and every pope after him has been a sinner. So what? We all are sinners, including you and your whatever clergy. Yes, there have been a few bad even perhaps evil scoundrels in the papacy, but not one could ever teach anything contrary to Church Doctrine / Faith- a proof that God protects His Church.,
Couple of points then that you will need to ponder for yourself:
1. If "the Catholic Church recognizes "that many outside the church are saved" then those outside really don't need the Catholic version of 'Communion' in order to be saved.
2. It means that Catholics on this board claiming it is required for salvation are incorrect.
3. It would also then mean that Catholics themselves are not required to partake in Communion in order to be saved.
And since those that are saved (Catholic or otherwise) are FILLED with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit IS God, there is then little need to snack on Him.
I would point out though that your statment "that have never through no fault of their own have never heard of the "Good News' of Jesus" are saved is wrong.
If that were true, then God's requirement to "preach the Gospel to all nations" would be a waste of time and actually do more harm than good.
How?
That would mean that if a person doesn't hear about Jesus, he is still going to see heaven, but if a person hears about Jesus and doesn't accept Him or falls away from, Him won't.
That...makes...zero...sense...
And has far as "His Church only Alone (by which you mean the Catholic church) contains the Fullness of the Faith"...that is ridiculous.
A born again Christian who has an intimate relationship with Jesus, shares the gospel, prophecies, heals the sick and casts out demons has AT LEAST the same "Fullness of Faith" than a person who does nothing more than a Catholic who does none of that but simply prays and occupies a church pew on Sundays.
-- You mean like 'indulgences?'
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-- Absolutely true. And God's 'church' is made of up ALL of His believers. Not just Catholics.
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I'm checking you out...
So Paul was wrong to write to believers in a specific place??? The true church is indeed in the world...just not OF IT. You are probably meaning the RC concept of the church triumphant which goes to explain away the pathetic condition of the church visible. How does a pathetic church become triumphant???? By not being here??? This makes no sense at all.
But it is only the gathering of these people that are a church....not THE church but A church of Christ.
You have some de-brainwashing to go through...we call it detoxification from the system.
You are confusing THE church (like the RC) with the reality of churches that are in many places. Real churches of God exist in different places. This is the witness of Christ on earth. There are no legitimate lone rangers or rambos in the body of Christ. Can you discern the body??? Or are you trusting in only yourself as in...there's just you and me and I'm not sure about you!!!
Get connected to the body and don't be a cancer cell trying to grow on it's own. A finger is useless unless it is connected to the hand. Be mutually accountable to others and submit to authority so that your prayers won't be hindered.
But His body is spread out in real people on this earth. Seek to be gathered with them to form a heavenly witness of the truth. Whoever doesn't gather with Him...scatters. Don't forsake the gathering together (community in the Spirit). The true saints of God are formed into spiritual families. The life that emanates from these churches is the light of the world.
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