A Common Error

dragonfly · Aug 16, 2012

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply.

*** The “new covenant” that Jesus mentioned at His last supper was made with the Jews, not the Gentiles (See Jer 31:31-33 below).

You are correct that it was made with the Jews initially, but for God's word to Eve in Gen 3:15 to be fulfilled, and for God's promise that Abraham would be the father of many nations and through him would all the nations of the world be blessed, that same covenant had to be opened up to the Gentiles.

This is what Isaiah had prophesied many times. The New Covenant was not complete in the lives of Christ's disciples, until the Holy Spirit had been given on the day of Pentecost. Paul later explains in Gal 3:14 how this baptism in the Holy Spirit was what God had been referring to when He made His promises about blessing to Abraham.

All I see in the 4 gospels and the first 8 or 9 chapters of Acts is that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and king and that the Jews had murdered Him.

The Jews were complicit in Christ's death, but Christ Himself said He would be put to death by Gentiles.

The gospel at that time was simply for the Jews to believe (accept) that Jesus was their Messiah and king.

I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. Here is what Paul said -

Romans 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren,

that through this man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things,

from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

There is no teaching that the shed blood reconciles men to God outside of the Law of Moses.

I'm not sure if I understand this statement, Richard, because there is no teaching that the shed blood (of animals) reconciles men to God inside the Law of Moses, either.

1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death,

for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament,

they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

*** What gospel did Peter preach?

The gospel of Jesus Christ - same as Paul? You can read it in Acts 10:34 - 47. 1 Cor 15:3 - 8.

Was it a gospel that said he was dead to the Law or just that Jesus was the Messiah and King of Israel?

In Peter's sermon, where did he say anything about 'Messiah' or 'King of Israel'?

About being dead to the law: Jesus Christ knew that He was 'the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that would believe'. Rom 10:4

The whole point of His gospel was the proclamation of the kingdom (or reign) of God within us. He is to be a new ruler over us. Instead of Satan, sin and death, we are to be governed by the life which available through the cross.

This is what Jesus meant when He preached this: Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. It's the same as Paul states in Philippians about losing everything for the sake of gaining Christ. Mark 8:34, Mark 10:28.

And that is only possible if we will to die to sin - and if we will to enter into the same situation He had been in - 'being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God' Acts 2:23 - to be identified with Christ in His death, Psa 7:13a, as only in His resurrection life is there the fellowship with God which we need. Matt 26:29

With the exception of Corneluis, what other Gentiles were saved through Peter‘s preaching? Show me where Peter ever preached to the Gentiles other than Corneluis.

Well I know if I mention the Samaritans, you're going to call them Jews, but the Jews hadn't thought of them as Israelites for a long time because of the intermarriage which had taken place with the Assyrians. However, there was more than Cornelius who was baptised in the Spirit at his home when Peter preached, Matt 16:19, and the main point in this discussion is that Peter preached the same gospel as Paul.

Of course it was preached from a different perspective, but if you compare the sermons we do have from Peter, which were preached before Paul's, they share much common content - despite your denial of it.

Sorry I can't answer more tonight ... maybe tomorrow there will be more.

RichardBurger · Aug 17, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply.

You are correct that it was made with the Jews initially, but for God's word to Eve in Gen 3:15 to be fulfilled, and for God's promise that Abraham would be the father of many nations and through him would all the nations of the world be blessed, that same covenant had to be opened up to the Gentiles.

This is what Isaiah had prophesied many times. The New Covenant was not complete in the lives of Christ's disciples, until the Holy Spirit had been given on the day of Pentecost. Paul later explains in Gal 3:14 how this baptism in the Holy Spirit was what God had been referring to when He made His promises about blessing to Abraham.

Why do you add your assumptions to the word of God? You want to add that the new covenant was made to the Gentiles too when you know that the scripture in Jer 31:31-33 plainly tells us that it was to be made to the Jews ONLY. But that is what men do, if the words do not support their ideas just change them or add to them.

The convenant with Abraham was that the Gentiles would be saved THROUGH THE JEWS. But under grace ALL men are saved by their """faith"" in the salvation God has accomplished on the cross. There is no other way except through the cross.

dragonfly · Aug 17, 2012

There is no other way except through the cross.

Yes, 'salvation is of the Jews'. Surely you acknowledge that Gentiles are brought into the same New Covenant (Eph 2)?

The cross - the death of the Lamb of God - was God providing a sacrifice to match Abraham's in Genesis 15. This is the significance also, of the author of Hebrews reference in chapter 9:15, to 'the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament'. It's the way that those Israelites who died in faith while the Mosaic Law was in force, would have their sins forgiven, not merely covered. These are the 'just men' Heb 12:23 'made perfect' - Heb 11:39, 40; Heb 10:14.

The New Covenant was an end to all previous covenants as well as the start of looking towards the resurrection of our bodies.

Prentis · Aug 17, 2012

'A common error':

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

RichardBurger · Aug 18, 2012

Prentis said:
'A common error':

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And of course everyone else is wrong in what they believe the scriptures say. Everyone else but you, right???

dragonfly said:
Yes, 'salvation is of the Jews'. Surely you acknowledge that Gentiles are brought into the same New Covenant (Eph 2)?

The cross - the death of the Lamb of God - was God providing a sacrifice to match Abraham's in Genesis 15. This is the significance also, of the author of Hebrews reference in chapter 9:15, to 'the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament'. It's the way that those Israelites who died in faith while the Mosaic Law was in force, would have their sins forgiven, not merely covered. These are the 'just men' Heb 12:23 'made perfect' - Heb 11:39, 40; Heb 10:14.

The New Covenant was an end to all previous covenants as well as the start of looking towards the resurrection of our bodies.

The new covenant of Jer 31:31-33 is not the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. It plainly says the new convenant of Jer 31:31-33 was to the Jews only.

You intend to make it a new covenant made to the Gentiles too and that is not what it says. But that is okay for you since you will not believe what the scriptures accually say but must interpret them to mean what you want them to say.

JohnnyB · Aug 18, 2012

RichardBurger said:
And of course everyone else is wrong in what they believe the scriptures say. Everyone else but you, right???

The new covenant of Jer 31:31-33 is not the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. It plainly says the new convenant of Jer 31:31-33 was to the Jews only.

You intend to make it a new covenant made to the Gentiles too and that is not what it says. But that is okay for you since you will not believe what the scriptures accually say but must interpret them to mean what you want them to say.

COMMON ERROR:
Not knowing the Jews were offered first, what the Gentiles were then offered, creating ONE new covenant,for ONE Church, who is Israel, made up of all believers.

Errors can be corrected, Richard! It's not too late for you!

dragonfly · Aug 18, 2012

Hi Richard,

Let's look at this another way.

Please will you read Ephesians 2:11 to the end, and then you tell me into which covenant the blood of Jesus Christ brought the Gentiles?

I'm all ears.

RichardBurger · Aug 18, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi Richard,

Let's look at this another way.

Please will you read Ephesians 2:11 to the end, and then you tell me into which covenant the blood of Jesus Christ brought the Gentiles?

I'm all ears.

the another way!

Eph 2:11-22
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh — who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands — 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Christ Our Peace
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Christ Our Cornerstone
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
NKJV

There is no mention of a covenant in the above scripture.

A covenant is based on law where the two parties agree to the rules set forth by both parties.

Prentis · Aug 18, 2012

JohnnyB said:
COMMON ERROR:
Not knowing the Jews were offered first, what the Gentiles were then offered, creating ONE new covenant,for ONE Church, who is Israel, made up of all believers.

Errors can be corrected, Richard! It's not too late for you!

Well said!

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

RichardBurger · Aug 18, 2012

JohnnyB said:
COMMON ERROR:
Not knowing the Jews were offered first, what the Gentiles were then offered, creating ONE new covenant,for ONE Church, who is Israel, made up of all believers.

Errors can be corrected, Richard! It's not too late for you!

Show me wherev we are under a covenant. You are right, it's not to late for you to see the truth.

dragonfly · Aug 18, 2012

Hi Richard,

There is no mention of a covenant in the above scripture.

A covenant is based on law where the two parties agree to the rules set forth by both parties.

Do you know which two parties the New Covenant is between?

JohnnyB · Aug 18, 2012

RichardBurger said:
Show me wherev we are under a covenant. You are right, it's not to late for you to see the truth.

Paul says it many times as has been shown in this thread, here is yet another one:
2Cor 3:6 He has made US competent as ministers of a new covenant not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills but the Spirt gives life.

When we take the whole council of the word, we are able to see God's plans for His ONE people.

dragonfly · Aug 18, 2012

Richard, are you remembering that Paul was an Israelite?

RichardBurger · Aug 19, 2012

Covenant = a binding and solemn agreement made by two or more individuals to do or keep from doing a specific thing.

There have been many new covenants in the scriptures. Each one is called new because at the time they were given there was an existing covenant in place. The covenant of the Law of Moses was new since it added to the covenant God made with Noah. The covenant of grace is new because it replaced the covenant of the Law of Moses.

The covenant Jesus made with the Jews concerning His blood was under the law of Moses since, under the law, only the shedding of blood could forgive sins of the flesh. It was a promised fulfillment of Jer 31:31. --- HOWEVER this new covenant with the Jews did not take effect at that time since the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and King. In doing so they rejected His shed blood as paying for their sins.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — As it says with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It does not say the Gentiles too.
NKJV

2 Cor 3:4-11
The Spirit, Not the Letter
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

A careful reading of Jer. 31 Will show that their new covenant will be based on the Law of Moses since it will be written on their hearts.

Glory of the New Covenant that was given to Paul by Jesus.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
NKJV

Now we have a new covenant that was sent to the Gentiles through Paul. It is ministered by the Holy Spirit and it is also based on the shed blood of Jesus on the cross reconciling mankind to God. It has replaced the covenant of law. The two covenants have not been blended together since one has passed away, verse 11 above.

dragonfly · Aug 19, 2012

Hi Richard,

What do you make of these verses?

Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations

for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Romans 4:11 And he [Abraham] received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet]

being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised;

that righteousness might be imputed to them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our

father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through

the righteousness of faith.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel to Abraham,

[saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ;

that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep,

through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ;

to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

John 10:15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;

and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock [at Ephesus], over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,

to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

RichardBurger · Aug 19, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi Richard,

What do you make of these verses?

Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations

for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Romans 4:11 And he [Abraham] received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet]

being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised;
that righteousness might be imputed to them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our

father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through

the righteousness of faith.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel to Abraham,

[saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ;

that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep,

through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ;

to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

John 10:15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock [at Ephesus], over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,

to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Very good verses. I think they mean what they say and you want me to comment on them. But where is your comment on what I wrote.

Just because a covenant is called NEW does not mean it is a specific covenant called NEW. A car model is new the first year it is offered but is is not called new the following year because it is replaced with a new model. In simpler words, Just because it is called ""New"" Convenant does not necessarly indicate the same covenant to me but you can see it however you wish.

dragonfly · Aug 19, 2012

Hi Richard,

It may not seem to be a new covenant (testament) 2000 years after the event, but God called it 'new' through Jeremiah, and, Jesus did at His last Passover. Matt 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Cor 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 7:22

RichardBurger · Aug 20, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi Richard,

It may not seem to be a new covenant (testament) 2000 years after the event, but God called it 'new' through Jeremiah, and, Jesus did at His last Passover. Matt 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Cor 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 7:22

Just because the writer stuck the word new in front of it does not mean it is new for all time. It was new at the time it was given.

God made a covenant with Noah. Then He made a NEW covenant of law with Moses. Jesus made a NEW covenant with the nation of Israel but the nation of Israel rejected His covenant so Jesus turned to the Gentiles with a NEW covenant based on His grace. --- The words NEW COVENANT do not label a covenant. The word NEW just definds that the covenant is newer than the last one. -- But I am sure you will not agree because you want the words NEW COVENANT to mean a specific one and there can not be a later one. But God can make as many NEW COVENANTS as He wishes even if you say He can't.

dragonfly · Aug 20, 2012

Hi Richard,

I'm so glad you wrote this

Jesus made a NEW covenant with the nation of Israel but the nation of Israel

because it's where the theology of a great many believers strays from scripture.

The NEW covenant was not with the nation of Israel as the Mosaic covenant had established them, if they would obey His voice.

The original covenant with Abraham, was completed by Jesus Christ, the Seed of whom God spoke to Abraham. (The Mosaic covenant was interjected because of transgressions Gal 3:19.) The 'new' covenant of which Jeremiah spoke, was the one which looks forward from Jesus Christ's work to the resurrection of our bodies - the 'hope' of salvation - and was first made in heaven, between the Father and the Son.

A Common Error

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