Yeah, errrrr, Don't think so. I think that is the sin centric teaching controlling your keen mind.... I don't think a person wants to stop growing in love, once they get started in the growth. When you do those loving acts, His love flows through you to the receiver of it. That person receives it and you feel their appreciation. You get a double dose of love. I would say the natural progression is to want more like any other addiction...
Homosexuality: Is it the way a person is born?
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I guess I'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Sorry about that.
I guess I can add that I agree with you after a point. I believe there is a wall that needs to be broken in the minds and hearts of those who haven't heard the gospel- by the law of God, without which we wouldn't have knowledge of our offenses to God, and before which they wouldn't understand the love of God as you so rightly described. It's not an either or; it's both. Yap-!)
I guess I can add that I agree with you after a point. I believe there is a wall that needs to be broken in the minds and hearts of those who haven't heard the gospel- by the law of God, without which we wouldn't have knowledge of our offenses to God, and before which they wouldn't understand the love of God as you so rightly described. It's not an either or; it's both. Yap-!)
Its about time....... sheesh.
I think you underestimate the power of love. Its omnipotent. 1 j 4 : 16
And I think you miss or forget that its the Spirit's job to convict folks not ours....
And I know you think Iam wrong too.... so neener neener.
I think you underestimate the power of love. Its omnipotent. 1 j 4 : 16
And I think you miss or forget that its the Spirit's job to convict folks not ours....
And I know you think Iam wrong too.... so neener neener.
I don't think you're wrong, per say, I just think I'm... more right. I don't think people will understand God's love until they understand His law. Which requires the spirit on both counts.
No One Is Righteous
[sup]9 [/sup]What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. [sup]10 [/sup]As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
[sup]11 [/sup] there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
[sup]12 [/sup]All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.” "etc."
-The point I'm trying to make-
[sup]19 [/sup]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [sup]20 [/sup]Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
My etc. was added. I added it in to skip to the end. People are being held accountable of sinning against the law, without even knowing it. Many people are trying to earn their salvation through works, according to the law they know not of; if they knew the law, then they would know Christ died for them to cover the sins transgressed under the law, which they inevitably can't obey (all have sinned/transgressed the law). So I believe it's the loving thing to do to illustrate this point in a loving way, and that -that- is the point of the good news. Unless you (the world) understands how bad the contrary to the good news is (the bad news of sin), then you (the world) won't understand how great and loving this great news really is.
No One Is Righteous
[sup]9 [/sup]What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. [sup]10 [/sup]As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
[sup]11 [/sup] there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
[sup]12 [/sup]All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.” "etc."
-The point I'm trying to make-
[sup]19 [/sup]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [sup]20 [/sup]Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
My etc. was added. I added it in to skip to the end. People are being held accountable of sinning against the law, without even knowing it. Many people are trying to earn their salvation through works, according to the law they know not of; if they knew the law, then they would know Christ died for them to cover the sins transgressed under the law, which they inevitably can't obey (all have sinned/transgressed the law). So I believe it's the loving thing to do to illustrate this point in a loving way, and that -that- is the point of the good news. Unless you (the world) understands how bad the contrary to the good news is (the bad news of sin), then you (the world) won't understand how great and loving this great news really is.
You are more fundagelical than me, and you toe that line sometimes, but I can't be angry at you because you at least think about it before you jump on a bandwagon.
I've known, personally people from their diaper days (nearly) who were gay and you could tell it. One in particular, the man was a marine, and a deacon. The wife was a school teacher, and sunday school teacher. They weren't playing the parts they lived them. They had about the healthiest house I have ever seen.
Their son showed gay characteristics at a very early age. They raised him appropriately, sports etc... he excelled at sports as both parents were athletic. They got counseling at first because they thought they were doing something wrong. Then to make sure it wasn't some trauma that had their son leaning that way....
The kid dated girls in high school. He didn't know any better. For Prom his mom wanted a picture of him and his gf kissing. He got nauseaus. His gf knew better and told his mom that she thought their son was gay. They had a very good and respectful relationship as high school kids, enjoyed each other blah blah blah, but he had never tried to grope or kiss her.
So back to counseling.
Later in his life, in college he found a man he was attracted to, and they dated and are probably still together.
The kid didn't do the stereotypical promiscuous thing. He was most likely virgin until he met that guy in college.
I'd say he was born gay. I have NO ISSUE defending that. Most Xians won't ever understand it because they refuse to acknowledge homosexuals are people, dehumanize them, and never get to know any. It's very reflective of the days of slavery and after, or woman's voting rights, etc.....
NOW the flip side is, I know people who have ended up being gay because of events, traumatic and other, in their lives. Here's the deal. It really doesn't matter HOW they got there. If they are there and are actually gay, it's how the roll of the dice ended up. The Church needs to get off their butts.
You do have some people who are just sexual, bi sexual, sexual addicts, etc... that have gay sex, hetero sex, toy sex, fruit and veggie sex, whatever.... Usually those are people who were sexually traumatized as well. BUT NOT ALWAYS.
Until the Church goes after all sins, as it does homosexual sins, it's being a bigot by definition. Until every type of sinner, is put through the same bs as the glbt community, you prove the Church is a bigoted organization.
Historically it's proven this to be true. Interracial marriage. Black rights. Women's voting rights. At the times those topics were issues the CHURCH was making the same heated arguments. Just as we look back at that today and frown in disgust, so to will this topic be looked back upon.
don't be sorry. If no one disagreed this forum would be really boring fast.
I understand where you come from now. I don't agree. It doesn't matter. If there was something you were missing that mattered to salvation I'd carry on...(assuming my view was right, of course.) But I don't think it matters here. Our disagreement is on speculative parts anyway, but the Spirit of both sides of this are pointing in the same direction, so what the heck. We can call each other childish names, stick our tongues out and go neener neener and have some fun with it.
So is doggy style, oral, anal, woman on top, or even missionary if you aren't trying to have a child from the sex and are doing it for pleasure. If the man doesn't have a beard, and his hair is too long, wait too short, the woman isn't in a veil, doesn't have her hair covered, if they like it, if they think of being on an open beach in the rain rather than the reality of their bedroom, all lights out, blinds pulled closed, door locked, children out of the house and neighbors gone.... Don't wanna tempt your brother afterall.....
It's all perverted to someone.
In Christ's day you could see homosexual sex in the public baths, in the alleys, in the Lord's houses, it was NOT an uncommon thing. And yet, He never addressed it.
Why? When you obsess over it and make it bigger than what it is, you miss the point.
White woman marrying black or arabic man, another perversion.
Man marrying woman his own age, or one that is too young, both are perversions to some cultures.
Do you get the point? you can't make that call.
When I stated 'natural sex drive' it was about a man-woman orientation. That's what God created and it's what he intended. Not man-man or woman-woman. Your examples are extremes of something God created. Homosexuality is on the next level. It's opposite what God created. And actually, I can make the call. God, repeatedly in his word, marks homosexuality (as well as other sins) as an abomination to him.
I don't care what cultures or people think. I care about what God thinks.
Now about your case example: how often did they mention this gay thing? Because see, once one has a pre-conceived idea, that is hammered into him, there is an extremely good chance that he will BECOME that idea. Tell a kid he's homosexual long enough, and there's a good chance that he will BELIEVE and BECOME homosexual.
Now as to your reference to Jesus' day, I don't believe that homosexuality was a big issue then. If you look through history, homosexuality has come in waves. There are times when it's just about unheard of. And then cases where it's rampant. More on this later.
Hi XP,
The power of the gospel is Christocentric, namely, Christ and Him crucified.
The cross is all about how God dealt with sin in human nature, once and for all, so that Heb 10:14 is spiritually true.
The more extremely a person feels separated from God by their specific sins, the more they will appreciate Jesus Christ and the blood He shed, and, the more likely they are to turn from their sin with all their heart. Luke 7:47
The content of the gospel preached, has a signficant influence on what the hearer believes into; also what they believe it is possible to be saved from, and, what the dynamic of salvation is, (cosmically speaking). These affect how, subsequently, they apply the details of truth to the Holy Spirit's initial and ongoing revelation to them, of their needs.
Most newcomers to Christianity have no idea what redemption is, or, how to view the internal conflicts they soon find themselves facing, after the initial forgiveness and peace of reconciliation with God.
Understanding the power of the blood and the completeness of Christ's victory are essential, as long as these truths are given their proper context doctrinally, according to the limitations imposed in the New Testament.
The power of the gospel is Christocentric, namely, Christ and Him crucified.
The cross is all about how God dealt with sin in human nature, once and for all, so that Heb 10:14 is spiritually true.
The more extremely a person feels separated from God by their specific sins, the more they will appreciate Jesus Christ and the blood He shed, and, the more likely they are to turn from their sin with all their heart. Luke 7:47
The content of the gospel preached, has a signficant influence on what the hearer believes into; also what they believe it is possible to be saved from, and, what the dynamic of salvation is, (cosmically speaking). These affect how, subsequently, they apply the details of truth to the Holy Spirit's initial and ongoing revelation to them, of their needs.
Most newcomers to Christianity have no idea what redemption is, or, how to view the internal conflicts they soon find themselves facing, after the initial forgiveness and peace of reconciliation with God.
Understanding the power of the blood and the completeness of Christ's victory are essential, as long as these truths are given their proper context doctrinally, according to the limitations imposed in the New Testament.
Martin, what book/law does a mother need to read to love her child?
Scripture says you learn to love by loving, not studying or knowing the law. If you never heard the law, but did the works of love, God will change your heart and your desires to suit His.
Errrr, don't make me go get all the verses that says you are to be made righteous. :|
No one is righteous before maturity, but maturity is to change you and make you righteous.
If you are led by the spirit you aren't under the law. Priesthood in the order of melchizedek is founded before there was a jew much less a law. :|
Not if they run the race and are led by the Spirit. Gal 5:18.
Works mature you, not save you.
if you claim to be saved and have no works you are a fool or a liar.
God wrote a bunch of laws just so you would violate them.
If you violate them and don't beg him for forgiveness he will burn you in hell forever. Hell, he won't even let you die.
IF you dance through these hoops, magic bath, magic prayer, milk and cookies once a month/week/day/whatever, then he won't punish you for the laws he wrote so you would violate them.
This is the gospel.
:|
:blink:
LEt's see, sounds a lot like,
You are an infidel.
You make our men sin with your evil temptations.
Change or we keel you!
You not change, I fly planes into buildings.
Both messages are, do what I say to do or I'll hurt you.
The English word is Fascist.
God =/= fascist;
God === Love.
You aren't the first ... nor will you be the last ... to speak about this observation.
Christians can be so utterly fixated on simplicity that they risk neglecting evident truths.
Case in point: The so-called sanctity of life. The hypocrisy of the majority holding this view is astonishing because their boasting morality ends at birth. They are so eager to protect the well-being of the fetus in the womb but hardly a thought is given to the well-being of the child after birth. They begrudge Food Stamps and adequate education and other such social benefits to the very children whom they claim to have rescued from abortion.
Case in point: Homosexuality. Again we observe the utter hypocrisy of many Christians.
When a child is born deformed, Christians are quick to claim that the sovereign God happily created them this way.
When a child is born as 'intersex', (with reproductive or sexual anatomy which doesn't fit the typical definitions of female or male), these same Christians again claim that God happily created them in this way.
When a child is born with a genetic predisposition towards sexual deviance, these same Christians say it was by choice and not godly design.
It seems to me that Christians have been asleep at the spiritual wheel of their existence for far too long. They can hardly recognize good much less evil. Yet our Bibles plainly tell us that we are to be "equipped to discern good and evil".
The powers of darkness are increasingly infringing on the genetics and biology of human life in this present day.
In times past, we dismissed it as "mental illness", "birth deformity" and whatever other hurried blind excuse our frail doctrines could grasp.
But we are entering a time now where the pervading works of evil are manifesting with great viciousness and causing severe distortions to the original creation laws.
The origin of evil is from out of the Kingdom of Darkness. If we wish to triumph over it, we need to "put our minds on things above". Otherwise, when the flood of darkness covers the earth in the end time, it will suffocate us along with many unsuspecting more.
Glad we have God's consultant here to guide us.
They are only extreme because you don't know or haven't lived around many gay people. And if GOD MADE THEM, then your understanding of GOD has Him making someone in a fashion He would condemn them. I'd like you to meet the God of Abraham. Perhaps we can discuss Him sometime?
Sin is pass / fail. There are no levels. People that look for levels of sin are merely looking for a way to justify their own behavior by finding someone who is worse.
That's a damnable lie. Homosexuality isn't the sin. Homosexual sex is the sin. A homosexual not having sex, would not be committing any of the sins you are discussing here. God created gay animals at about the same ratio that you have gay humans. So saying its not natural is just silly.
Oh, and in Proverbs 2 I believe it says every sin is an abomination to God. AND as a point of reference, this is the "ONLY ABOMINATION" the Xian community isolates and gives this much attention to, so let's be honest here, it's not because it's an abomination. If that were the offense you'd be JUST AS ANGRY at all the other abominations. That's not the case, so don't pose sanctimoniously that it's protecting the world from Abominations, please.
Really? Let's put that to the test....
Jesus commands you to love as perfectly as God does.
Jesus demonstrates that God loves even His enemies, and that love PROVIDES necessisities for them.
Jesus said if they ask for your coat, give them your shirt.
So, God loves His enemies.
His Church, when asked for the coat, takes THEIR shirt, and gives them nothing. His Church isolates and dehumanizes the people who asked for it.
GLBT community asked for equal rights under the law. The Church makes a fiasco out of this. No coat, No shirt, No rights, nothing but isolation and dehumanization.
So, no, I don't accept you care what God says. You only use what God says for your causes.
Take bigotry for example. A bigot will take any excuse they can muster to exhibit their bigotry. "THIS GAY THING" wasn't mentioned to the boy. The GF never discussed it with the boy. They didn't take a 5 year old to counseling and ask him if he thought he was gay. That's the most insultingly idiotic thing you could possibly have said.
If I tell you that you are meeting the definition of bigot enough you'll eventually accept it? And then change your behavior?
I dont' care what you believe. I KNOW WHAT HISTORY HAS FOUND. It wasn't a big deal, that much is true. It was common place to have homosexual sex. In public places even. But it wasn't a big deal, because they didn't care to make it one. Now, They were doing it as a recreational past time, a saying of this era is recorded as something like, boys when in need, women to breed. I'm screwing it up somehow but that's capturing the idea accurate enough. We know they had homosexual sex in the public baths. We know that when a young man was sent to be raised by another family, which was the custom for the "Lords" of the land, the young man may very well be "taken" in that way. And not only did the young man not fight and the event not be a rape, it was considered normal. IGNORANCE has a cure. I'm not calling you names. But you are making claims as if they were true about things it's obvious you have not researched.
If you look through history, homosexuality has come in waves. There are times when it's just about unheard of. And then cases where it's rampant. More on this later.
I'd suggest that when you didn't hear of it, you either didn't research it, or people really didn't care enough about it to make a big deal about it.
There were interracial marriages all through history as well, Marc Anthony/cleopatra.... etc.... but the CHURCH still deemed, for the same reasons you are giving here, that it was an abomination and shouldn't be legal. See, the thing is, the Church was never built to legislate faith, but to Love neighbor, brother and enemy alike.
The church is so far from it's calling today, it can't see love neighbor in its rearview mirror.
Wel, I sorta agree. But unfortunately the Church talks and idolizes sin more than Christ.
God could have and would have dealt with sin at any time anyone would have gone home to him. The Blood of Christ didn't force God to do anything out of His will.
If that were true atheist would be preachers.
Man, you put a lot more credit on what man does here than the Bible does. Bible says you grow in the faith through living it, through works, not preaching. Cosmically speaking, you are way out there... WHY you think man is so important in the mix of what a super natural God does seems rather hubristic.
Can you get into heaven without meeting the standards of 1 john 4:16,17? If not, shouldn't that be your focus? Can you get into heaven without Him being in you and you being in Him? If not, then wouldn't the focus of 1 john 4:16-17 be your focus not trying to define what sin is for other people?
I'd argue if you get the love right, GOD IS LOVE, you'd be in Him and Him in you and you'd be to heaven without any of that knowledge you mention above. Something happened in the Western Church where it became more important to know than to do. Getting away from the doing, is removed more mature believers. Now we are herded like lemmings by immature believers.
The penalty for sin is death. I don't see how you can demonstrate God's love in an evangelistic way without explaining why, how, and when this penalty is taken away in Christ. I don't see how you do that, either, without the law.
XP, either fix the quote thing, or I couldn't be bothered replying. I don't have time to sort through all my quotes and your quotes.
Also, there's no need to get all fired up.
I'm not declaring homosexuality to be a sin worse than the others. You missed my point (in fact, you conveniently cut my quote off there so it fits what you wish to declare). I was saying that homosexuality is no longer a natural drive gone wrong. It's an unnatural drive.
Anyhow, you are stating that it's the same as in nature? Excuse me? Give me an example of an animal which is homosexual. And I'm not talking about a dog in rutting season who feels the need to copulate with any object, because there's no female, in order to remove his natural urge. I mean a real homosexual animal.
Homosexuality is NOT created by God. You talk about one extreme of people who hate homosexuals themselves, but without realizing it, jump into the other camp: the camp that says, you know what, God made you that way.
No he didn't. Homosexuality is sin. There is no way that you can participate in any of it without sinning. And there would be no way that God would create a homosexual.
There are some things man created: none of them were good.
Oh, before I'm called a bigot, I have quite a few homosexual friends. I don't have any issues with them, but I'm a Believer, and I refuse to lie down when I have gay rights activists standing in front of churches pushing their left-wing views. But still, I'll take the title of bigot.
Also, there's no need to get all fired up.
I'm not declaring homosexuality to be a sin worse than the others. You missed my point (in fact, you conveniently cut my quote off there so it fits what you wish to declare). I was saying that homosexuality is no longer a natural drive gone wrong. It's an unnatural drive.
Anyhow, you are stating that it's the same as in nature? Excuse me? Give me an example of an animal which is homosexual. And I'm not talking about a dog in rutting season who feels the need to copulate with any object, because there's no female, in order to remove his natural urge. I mean a real homosexual animal.
Homosexuality is NOT created by God. You talk about one extreme of people who hate homosexuals themselves, but without realizing it, jump into the other camp: the camp that says, you know what, God made you that way.
No he didn't. Homosexuality is sin. There is no way that you can participate in any of it without sinning. And there would be no way that God would create a homosexual.
There are some things man created: none of them were good.
Oh, before I'm called a bigot, I have quite a few homosexual friends. I don't have any issues with them, but I'm a Believer, and I refuse to lie down when I have gay rights activists standing in front of churches pushing their left-wing views. But still, I'll take the title of bigot.
Hi XP,
Thanks for your reply. It's bedtime here and I don't know what tomorrow brings, but I know I owe you a reply to questions in a different thread... Am still musing on how to respond there, because I have what could be called a non-standard past.
The point is, 'homosexuality' is the name of the cluster of spirits which drive a body to do those sins. The whole thing is a lie, though.
It is so deeply seated in a person's physical being, and it so easily attracts worship to itself being places so near the spirit of the man/woman, that the power to separate from it is mostly God's - if not entirely God's.
Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. {persons: Heb. souls}
Do you see how comfortable the king of Sodom is, in the place of worship, trying to do a business deal? He's a predator.
Hello MT,
You are, of course, so right. I'm reminded of something I used to know but had forgotten.. the retranslation of which is that God can fix faulty DNA, too. I also believe that the word of God is powerful, and that a child who has all the genetic cards stacked against him - even when the powers of evil have been actively invited to take part in its 'creation' - that if that child receives the 'right' and GODLY spiritual input which is possible from those who know the Lord, there can be a great healing and deliverance effected before any more damage is done by his own 'choices'.
And of course, if he chooses to put himself wholly in God's hands, God can recreate him at his own request. Praise the Lord!
Thanks for your reply. It's bedtime here and I don't know what tomorrow brings, but I know I owe you a reply to questions in a different thread... Am still musing on how to respond there, because I have what could be called a non-standard past.
The point is, 'homosexuality' is the name of the cluster of spirits which drive a body to do those sins. The whole thing is a lie, though.
It is so deeply seated in a person's physical being, and it so easily attracts worship to itself being places so near the spirit of the man/woman, that the power to separate from it is mostly God's - if not entirely God's.
Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. {persons: Heb. souls}
Do you see how comfortable the king of Sodom is, in the place of worship, trying to do a business deal? He's a predator.
Hello MT,
You are, of course, so right. I'm reminded of something I used to know but had forgotten.. the retranslation of which is that God can fix faulty DNA, too. I also believe that the word of God is powerful, and that a child who has all the genetic cards stacked against him - even when the powers of evil have been actively invited to take part in its 'creation' - that if that child receives the 'right' and GODLY spiritual input which is possible from those who know the Lord, there can be a great healing and deliverance effected before any more damage is done by his own 'choices'.
And of course, if he chooses to put himself wholly in God's hands, God can recreate him at his own request. Praise the Lord!
"Homosexuality is NOT created by God. You talk about one extreme of people who hate homosexuals themselves, but without realizing it, jump into the other camp: the camp that says, you know what, God made you that way."
You can be born a Homosexual, but that doesn't mean God created you that way. Well, it sort of does, since he had to power to stop that from happening, but he also died to prevent that nature to be held to the account of the individual. This is just as scientific as it is spiritual (as Dragonfly mentioned). No longer is anyone excluded from worshiping in the presence of God according to the nature they were born with, however we are still held accountable for the sins we have committed within that nature after the point of knowledge (we know we are sinning, or we experience guilt when we sin).
You can be born a Homosexual, but that doesn't mean God created you that way. Well, it sort of does, since he had to power to stop that from happening, but he also died to prevent that nature to be held to the account of the individual. This is just as scientific as it is spiritual (as Dragonfly mentioned). No longer is anyone excluded from worshiping in the presence of God according to the nature they were born with, however we are still held accountable for the sins we have committed within that nature after the point of knowledge (we know we are sinning, or we experience guilt when we sin).
In brief, if homosexuality is in the genes, we would see a stable population of homosexuals, not the epidemics that it comes in. There is no real evidence for a homosexual gene.
As I've stated many times, once one is given the idea of ANYTHING, there is a possibility it's what he becomes. I'll open up a bit: if I never got hooked by pornography, I barely know anything of the filth that goes on, and not have the conception of the ideas in my mind to do such things. Now I'm constantly faced with a battle to keep my mind pure - and not just my mind - my actions. If something stays in the head long enough, it will eventually manifest itself in action. The same applies to homosexuality. Give one the idea of it, and in the right environment, he will become that. Homosexuality is NOT inherited, it is not genetic. It has nothing to do with being natural. It's unnatural.
Hi mls,
How do you square this statement with the words of Christ to the Samaritan woman at the well, in John 4?
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
And to His disciples in John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] to you.
And Paul's testimony in
Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body... 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searches the hearts knows what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
I know you don't believe we lose our sinful nature, which is why I ask. This belief, also, is at variance with Paul's analysis. Only this morning while looking for something else, I came across these two verses:
Exodus 29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock [for] a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it. 37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
So here are the questions.... If the altar had to be holy to receive the sacrifices, and then everything that touched the altar was holy.... and the altar is a type of the cross of Christ... how was the cross of Christ sanctified? Was it by His presence upon it?
If I accept that I am crucified with Christ, spiritually speaking, so that the power of my sinful nature is brought to nought through His death, then how and why - when Paul says Romans 8:7 He that is dead is freed from sin - should I "think" that I still have a "sinful nature"?
Paul has prescribed the remedy for the renewing of the mind, in more than one place. So lets look at Romans 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you all present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, [which is] your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Jesus also said this in John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
If the whole sacrifice was holy because it had touched the altar, surely sanctification through the Father's truth, is also wholly holy?
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
And what is the purpose of our sanctification?
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
So how can you and I be 'one in us' (Jesus speaking of Himself and the Father), if I still have no control over my sinning?
Paul also said this:
1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profits little: but godliness is profitable to all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
What is that life, if not the resurrection life of Jesus Christ, the 'spirit of life in Christ Jesus' (Rom 8:2) which delivers us from 'the body of this death' Rom 7:24?
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, [Ephesians 1:19, 20] even so we also should walk in newness of life.
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say to you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone:
but if it die, it brings forth much fruit.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every [branch] that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine;
no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Galatians 5
'... the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [sup]23 [/sup]meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [sup]24 [/sup]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [sup]25 [/sup]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin... 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Even food is 'sanctified'. 1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. How much more us, who through the Holy Spirit have been given -
'the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given to us all things to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. ??
Clearly, Peter is talking in the pluperfect tense - not the future tense. (2 Peter 1)
Let's fix our eyes on Jesus Christ. Hebrews 12:2
How do you square this statement with the words of Christ to the Samaritan woman at the well, in John 4?
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
And to His disciples in John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] to you.
And Paul's testimony in
Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body... 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searches the hearts knows what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
I know you don't believe we lose our sinful nature, which is why I ask. This belief, also, is at variance with Paul's analysis. Only this morning while looking for something else, I came across these two verses:
Exodus 29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock [for] a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it. 37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
So here are the questions.... If the altar had to be holy to receive the sacrifices, and then everything that touched the altar was holy.... and the altar is a type of the cross of Christ... how was the cross of Christ sanctified? Was it by His presence upon it?
If I accept that I am crucified with Christ, spiritually speaking, so that the power of my sinful nature is brought to nought through His death, then how and why - when Paul says Romans 8:7 He that is dead is freed from sin - should I "think" that I still have a "sinful nature"?
Paul has prescribed the remedy for the renewing of the mind, in more than one place. So lets look at Romans 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you all present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, [which is] your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Jesus also said this in John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
If the whole sacrifice was holy because it had touched the altar, surely sanctification through the Father's truth, is also wholly holy?
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
And what is the purpose of our sanctification?
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
So how can you and I be 'one in us' (Jesus speaking of Himself and the Father), if I still have no control over my sinning?
Paul also said this:
1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profits little: but godliness is profitable to all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
What is that life, if not the resurrection life of Jesus Christ, the 'spirit of life in Christ Jesus' (Rom 8:2) which delivers us from 'the body of this death' Rom 7:24?
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, [Ephesians 1:19, 20] even so we also should walk in newness of life.
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say to you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone:
but if it die, it brings forth much fruit.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every [branch] that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine;
no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Galatians 5
'... the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [sup]23 [/sup]meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [sup]24 [/sup]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [sup]25 [/sup]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin... 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Even food is 'sanctified'. 1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. How much more us, who through the Holy Spirit have been given -
'the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given to us all things to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. ??
Clearly, Peter is talking in the pluperfect tense - not the future tense. (2 Peter 1)
Let's fix our eyes on Jesus Christ. Hebrews 12:2
"Give one the idea of it, and in the right environment, he will become that."-excerpt
I believe this is true, but I don't think it limits the idea that we can be predisposed to sin, even spiritually (forget physically for now. If science can explain it, it will. If it can't, it won't?). Isn't there a verse that talks about how because of sin, and the knowledge of the types of sin, people might sin more? Which would prove your point there. But on a spiritual level at least there are inherited traits, as far back as Adam. "But Adam wasn't gay." I guess not (I didn't know him, but that would have been embarrassing on a comedic level... anyway), but all sin came from that source and went through to the rest of the generations somehow.
Concerning Dragonfly posts-
I don't believe we are held accountable to the sins made in ignorance, even though we still live with the nature we were once ignorant of. I can have both flesh and spirit, and I mean I can be in one or the other. I was set free, but I still have to choose daily to overcome sin with the freedom I was given. The same spirit that gives us spiritual life will cause us to be reborn into new physical bodies as well. But until then, we have these broken vessels which God still uses perfectly to administer His love through us. Ya, at this point I'm not talking about Homosexuality specifically, but just about my view on the spirit and sinning generally.
Feel free to disagree with me, but that's what I feel scripture has lead me to believe, using pretty much the same verses you posted.
"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the spirit"
Meaning there's a difference between the two. We can be alive in spirit "saved", and walk outside the spirit- "fellowship" with God.
I believe this is true, but I don't think it limits the idea that we can be predisposed to sin, even spiritually (forget physically for now. If science can explain it, it will. If it can't, it won't?). Isn't there a verse that talks about how because of sin, and the knowledge of the types of sin, people might sin more? Which would prove your point there. But on a spiritual level at least there are inherited traits, as far back as Adam. "But Adam wasn't gay." I guess not (I didn't know him, but that would have been embarrassing on a comedic level... anyway), but all sin came from that source and went through to the rest of the generations somehow.
Concerning Dragonfly posts-
I don't believe we are held accountable to the sins made in ignorance, even though we still live with the nature we were once ignorant of. I can have both flesh and spirit, and I mean I can be in one or the other. I was set free, but I still have to choose daily to overcome sin with the freedom I was given. The same spirit that gives us spiritual life will cause us to be reborn into new physical bodies as well. But until then, we have these broken vessels which God still uses perfectly to administer His love through us. Ya, at this point I'm not talking about Homosexuality specifically, but just about my view on the spirit and sinning generally.
Feel free to disagree with me, but that's what I feel scripture has lead me to believe, using pretty much the same verses you posted.
"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the spirit"
Meaning there's a difference between the two. We can be alive in spirit "saved", and walk outside the spirit- "fellowship" with God.
Christ came to enable and teach how to love neighbor. Let me tell you about that. Let me see you live it sincerely for a while and see if you want to go back to the other. We'll screw up along the way but if we stay focused we'll eventually get it right. The reward for that is much more potent than the fear of sin.
You stand at a point when you hear you are a sinner and sin will send you to hell. You flee sin. 359 ways go away from sin and NOT towards God, and ONE way goes TO God. YOur way teaches them to head 1 of 360 directions. My way teaches them to run one direction.
I don't know how to put it any differently. You don't have to know you ever committed a sin, if you grow in and get the Love right.
The way I'm talking about teaches 1 way, and in order to get there you have to stumble through an obstacle course called "I'm a fool who believes what I'm doing isn't sin, so shouldn't God love me anyway?" If you teach a non-Christian that God will love them anyway before teaching them about sin and the law, they will keep on sinning. If you teach them about sin and the law before teaching them God will love them either way (receiving or rejecting the Gospel), they might receive Christ in order to receive His love in forgiveness for sins and to salvation.
Show me where it's not and I'll work at it. There are some quirky things here to the quotes I'm still figuring out.
rare is it the person that can sense emotion in text. Impressive. :| You don't fire me up, you depress me.
I would never edit a quote to make a point. Where I chose to cut it off was the natural point for what I had observed and commented on.
And by definition of the word Natural that's bull fertilizer.
Unfair, I never said a whole species of animal was homosexual. That's an idiotic standard to demand. We've observed nearly every species of animal having sex within its gender. Homosexuals are what, about 5-10% of the population? It's about the same ratio of animals in a zoo that are homosexual tendencied.... That's empirical observed fact. It's not even open to discussion. IF you deny this you are either willfully ignorant and refuse to investigate things against your hunches, or deliberately driving an agenda.
You have to be joking. Heck it's in the news all the time. Maybe I grew up in a small enough town and around enough livestock to notice but it's evident just from casual observation. There were penguins in the news recently, all over the news that were "gay". There are documented dolphins in the wild and captivity. There are donkeys, horses that have been written about.... Give me a break, this is ridiculous.
Then Homosexuality existed without GOd and is therefore more powerful than God. Brilliant. NOthing exists that isn't of God's doing.
Actually I offered numerous ways one can be a homosexual. The fact that you give such a polarizing set of options and ignore all the others presented says more about your view of the world than mine. Do you beat red headed step children too?
NO clue what you comment on there.
Not anywhere in the bible is that true. Prove your point so I can embarrass you in public I guess. You won't reason, maybe demonstrations are needed.
YOU>>>>>>>>
There is no way that you can participate in any of it without sinning. And there would be no way that God would create a homosexual.<<<<<<<<<
Yeah, God didn't create Adam either. Nor the tempter, nor create evil/catastrophe. The Bible is wrong on ALL of that. YOU are right. Anyone ever tell you, that you keep a 3rd grade sunday school class standard here?
YOU>>>>>>>>>>
There are some things man created: none of them were good.
Oh, before I'm called a bigot, I have quite a few homosexual friends.<<<<<<<<<<
So you prove you are a bigot. Only bigots pull the friends card.
YOU>>>>>I don't have any issues with them, but I'm a Believer, and I refuse to lie down when I have gay rights activists standing in front of churches pushing their left-wing views. But still, I'll take the title of bigot.
<<<<<<<<<If you were a child of GOd, you'd have given them equal marriage rights, not fight against them.
PEOPLE LIKE YOU deprived Blacks a spot in the Church, a place at the water fountain, a place in the government, a place on the football team. Do you go back and support your ancestors of philosophy in their arguments back then? THEY ARE THE SAME ARGUMENTS YOU MAKE NOW.
Same with women's rights.
Same with interracial marriages. That was another cause the Church championed to keep the govt from allowing. The whole faith was going to fall if it happened. Same arguments you make here now. Same ignorance. Same bigotry. Same making GOd a fascist. Same ignoring scripture.
The fact is, you are a bigot because you isolate the one sin, or the one sinner, or the one abomination and give it more concern than others. BY DEFINITION that is bigotry. I'm not slinging pejoratives. I'm quite sure you'd stop and give assistance and care for a GLBT person....
But your thinking is anti Christ, not pro Christ.
Heheehehe. So what? It's God who is going to change them, not you, and not themselves.
Guess what, they keep on sinning if you teach them about sin too. So how is that better?
I'd suggest it's worse, because it shifts their focus from growing in love to avoiding sin. YOu can avoid sin and not grow in love. If you grow in love you can't help but avoid more sin.
Seems to me focusing on LOVE is the surer way.
1 john 4:16-18 show me how, if you didn't sin, but missed out on the love, you'd go to heaven in lieu of that verse? The sheep and the goats parable says other wise as well.
Gal 5:6 Paul says the most important theological doctrine of his day was NOT important, but faith working through LOVE was.
Paul taught that by doing the works of love, you grew in Xian maturity, even to as mature as Jesus Himself was. So, how does focusing on fleeing sin, help you grow in love? If I look into the ditch while I drive i'll drive there eventually. If I keep my eyes on the prize and not worry about sin, as Paul said HE did, I've got better chances of avoiding the ditch.
????
You can avoid sin two ways, and they are the same. You accept atonement for your sins in relation to Christ's atonement on the cross, and by "love covers a multitude of sin." I guess that is less avoidance, more atonement. So I'm saying the same thing when I say love covers a multitude of sins, and Christ's death on the cross was the same.
I'm saying, I believe there are stumbling blocks to our understanding of the heart of God (from birth) in that most people's theologies that must be worked through before they understand God's love. Our first understanding of God comes from our parents, if we're blessed to have them, and our parents are faulty at best at representing God's father heart. Now, If a non believer can come to Christ strictly by our works and our showing our love to them, fine, but if not, something else has got to give. I believe they would already have to have an understanding of their sinfulness, in order to realize it's God's love you are showing: Which you are showing, but it can be near incomprehensible to someone who has a screwed up vision of who God is.
If someone doesn't benefit from our demonstration of God's love to them, then it could/would only be glorifying us, which is bad (or no one at all, hopefully, if that's the case). If we do a bad job at showing God's love, then we're not accurately representing God's love either, which I think has to do with your concern with people yelling, "Hell and damnation! All ablazes! Dur hur hur (I usually agree)"; thereby preaching judgment without recourse. -That we as Christian's show God's love, despite the sinfulness of the person we are showing love to. Our presentation (the how of our ministry) definitely matters.
That's how Billy Graham did it. I don't usually tote other people's ministries here, but I would consider his a good example.
Oh and when the Bible says the word doesn't return void, that doesn't mean that what it returns is always good. It stirs up the crap inside us, so that we have to deal with it, which can be good, if we actually deal with it.
M
I'm saying, I believe there are stumbling blocks to our understanding of the heart of God (from birth) in that most people's theologies that must be worked through before they understand God's love. Our first understanding of God comes from our parents, if we're blessed to have them, and our parents are faulty at best at representing God's father heart. Now, If a non believer can come to Christ strictly by our works and our showing our love to them, fine, but if not, something else has got to give. I believe they would already have to have an understanding of their sinfulness, in order to realize it's God's love you are showing: Which you are showing, but it can be near incomprehensible to someone who has a screwed up vision of who God is.
If someone doesn't benefit from our demonstration of God's love to them, then it could/would only be glorifying us, which is bad (or no one at all, hopefully, if that's the case). If we do a bad job at showing God's love, then we're not accurately representing God's love either, which I think has to do with your concern with people yelling, "Hell and damnation! All ablazes! Dur hur hur (I usually agree)"; thereby preaching judgment without recourse. -That we as Christian's show God's love, despite the sinfulness of the person we are showing love to. Our presentation (the how of our ministry) definitely matters.
That's how Billy Graham did it. I don't usually tote other people's ministries here, but I would consider his a good example.
Oh and when the Bible says the word doesn't return void, that doesn't mean that what it returns is always good. It stirs up the crap inside us, so that we have to deal with it, which can be good, if we actually deal with it.
M
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