Where does the Pope get his authority?

BreadOfLife · Mar 4, 2024

Peterlag said:
You have provided pieces of verses scattered all over the Bible. But you have not proven any point since all of those verses are twisted, or a bad translation or not understood how the words are used in the culture of their time. I provide much to say about every verse you post. To say that I don't is just a lie.

Again - YOU have presented nothing but your opinions. I have provided Scriptural quotes, references and context.

In a debate - it's the weight of evidence that wins the day, NOT the lack of it . . .

Peterlag · Mar 4, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
Again - YOU have presented nothing but your opinions. I have provided Scriptural quotes, references and context.

In a debate - it's the weight of evidence that wins the day, NOT the lack of it . . .

There are many like you here. What you post is God's Word. What I post is my opinion.

Peterlag · Mar 4, 2024

Augustin56 said:
Peterlag, all you've shown is that your personal interpretation/opinion differs. You've proven nothing either. If everything could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, there would be no room for faith. Faith is believing something we cannot absolutely prove, but true faith is not credulity, i.e., believing for no reason. We must have reasons why we believe what we believe. Faith and reason go together.

I like you. At least we can bicker with the respect of equal ground.

The Learner · Mar 4, 2024

Hobie said:
Its the ancient pagan worship from Babylon, and history shows it...

Ok that link is just werid.

The Learner · Mar 4, 2024

Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association

Sharing Neglected Truth, Speaking the Truth in Love

www.ralphwoodrow.org

The Babylon connection? : Woodrow, Ralph : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

121 p. : 22 cm

archive.org

https://www.equip.org/PDF/DC187.pdf

Did the Catholic Church Have Its Origin in Paganism?

The Two Babylons, a book written by Alexander Hislop, claims that the religion of ancient Babylon became what is known today as the Catholic Church.

www.catholic.com

Amazon.com

Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association

Sharing Neglected Truth, Speaking the Truth in Love

www.ralphwoodrow.org

Hobie · Mar 5, 2024

Peterlag said:
Yeah but the members think it's the only church that was started by Jesus himself.

It's what they say but their actions and doctrines show different...

Peterlag · Mar 5, 2024

Hobie said:
It's what they say but their actions and doctrines show different...

I'm about as good as you get for understanding the Epistles. I can put the whole thing together and make sense out of it to the end of actually producing the power of God. And yet I can't make sense out of anything the Catholics teach.

BreadOfLife · Mar 5, 2024

Peterlag said:
There are many like you here. What you post is God's Word. What I post is my opinion.

And that's your problem.
You have an aversion to providing Biblical evidence.

Pretty feeble for a Biblical "expert" . . .

Augustin56 · Mar 5, 2024

As Dr. Peter Kreeft once said, quoting G. K. Chesterton is like eating potato chips. It's hard to stop at just one.

BreadOfLife · Mar 5, 2024

Hobie said:
Its the ancient pagan worship from Babylon, and history shows it...

Good grief - another Alexander Hislop devotee . . .
How many time must you be shown that Hislop simply made up most of what was in his book?

Read Ralph Woodrow's "The Babylon Connection?", which dispels and otherwise debunks Hislop's schlock opus . . .

BreadOfLife · Mar 5, 2024

Augustin56 said:
As Dr. Peter Kreeft once said, quoting G. K. Chesterton is like eating potato chips. It's hard to stop at just one.

Mr. Kreeft is speaking at my church next month. Can't wait . . .

The Learner · Mar 5, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
And that's your problem.
You have an aversion to providing Biblical evidence.

Pretty feeble for a Biblical "expert" . . .

invincible ignorance is very easy to understand.

The Learner · Mar 5, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
Good grief - another Alexander Hislop devotee . . .
How many time must you be shown that Hislop simply made up most of what was in his book?

Read Ralph Woodrow's "The Babylon Connection?", which dispels and otherwise debunks Hislop's schlock opus . . .

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Methodology - Christian Research Institute

This article first appeared in the volume 22, number 2 (2000) issue of the Christian Research Journal. For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org A review of The Two Babylons, or The Papal Worship by Alexander Hislop (Lorizeaux Brothers...

www.equip.org

Hislop’s book is a remarkable case study in the level of abject nonsense that can be created out of a stupid initial assumption, a burning desire to find (or create) evidence to support it and the motivating energy of good old fashioned bigotry. So Hislop takes sources that have since been shown to be wrong and new information from digs in the Middle East that he didn’t understand to create a fantasy of stunning complexity and idiocy. We are told that the mitres worn by Catholic bishops take their shape from the “fish head hats” worn by the ancient priests of the god Dagon, though this ignores the fact that Catholic mitres didn’t take their current form until at least the tenth century and earlier forms didn’t look anything like the bizarre hats in Hislop’s dubious illustrations of these pagan priests. And where Hislop was unable to come up with evidence he simply makes strings of assertions, like “Nimrod was born on December 25” or “Christmas tree baubles are Babylonian sun symbols” – none of which have the slightest substantiation.

Not surprisingly, Hislop’s book became a best-seller and remains very popular among the loonier elements of fundamentalist Protestantism. The Jehovah’s Witnesses still cite Hislop as an august authority in regular articles repeating his claims. The infamous tract publisher Jack T. Chick was a huge fan of Hislop and several of his crazier evangelical comic books were simply rehashes of Hislop’s thesis (such as his 1987 comic “Why is Mary Crying?“). And white supremacist groups of the “Christian Identity” variety also regularly feature Hislop’s claims in their material.

Hislop seems to be the ultimate point of origin for the claims that Ishtar and Eostre were the original source of Easter, thanks to the wickedness of Catholics and, of course, Satan. He devotes a whole section to the pagan origins of Easter in his chapter on the wicked Satanic festivals of the Catholic Church:

“What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name.It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name,… as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar …” (Hislop, p. 103)

He goes on to detail a fervid fantasy about Middle Eastern gods being taken to Britain by, of course, the Druids, who he claims worshipped the Babylonian god Baal. Then he makes the following series of leaps:

The Learner · Mar 5, 2024

“If Baal was thus worshipped in Britain, it will not be difficult to believe that his consort, Astarte, was also worshipped by our ancestors, whose name in Nineveh was Ishtar. The religious solemnities of April, as now practised, are called by the name of Easter – that month, among our Pagan ancestors having been called Easter-monath.” (Hislop, p. 104)

He then traces this pagan Easter and its Catholic customs via a circuitous route via the 40 day fast of “the Yezidis, the Pagan Devil-worshippers of Koordistan” and, somehow, the “Pagan Mexicans” and the cults of Adonis, Osiris, Ceres and Tammuz before it was imposed on the poor Christians of Britain by the wicked and Satanic Church of Rome. He concludes:

“Such is the history of Easter.The popular observances that still attend the period of its celebration amply confirm the testimony of history as to its Babylonian character.The hot cross buns of Good Friday, and the dyed eggs of Pasch or Easter Sunday, figured in the Chaldean rites just as they do now.” (p. 107-08)

Pretty much all the elements of the memes above can be found here, though not the Satanic hot cross buns, which Hislop condemns as celebrating “the goddess Easter” and therefore also evil. I imagine Mr Hislop was not much fun at parties.

Hislop’s junk scholarship was very popular and while his whole thesis generally only appealed to his hardline Protestant audience, his claims permeated nineteenth and early twentieth century culture. So we can find them popping up in esoterica, in tracts by Theosophists and occultists ... anti-Catholic material with uncritical enthusiasm.

The Learner · Mar 5, 2024

I'd be a little cautious before going further down this road. Many books that give the impression of erudition and spiritual acuity at first sight turn out to be nothing of the sort when seen in a broader context, and Hislop's book may be one example of such. Evangelical Protestant minister Ralph Woodward who formerly recommended the book, argues in The Babylon Connection that Hislop's book has numerous misconceptions, fabrications and grave factual errors.

....

So on to the book. An aspect of it is that Woodrow is seeking to show how ridiculous Hislop’s system is, and I think he succeeds wonderfully. For Hislop, everything traced back to Nimrod in the Bible and his being married to Seimramis. Never mind that even if Semiramis existed, it would have been centuries apart from Nimrod. A theory should never be dislodged by some inconvenient facts after all.

Hislop then tries to show that if you name any pagan god, that goes back to Nimrod. (Goddesses go to Semiramis.) Do you see a ritual here in Hawaii honoring deity X? That traces to Babylon. Do you see something in Scandanavia? That goes back to Nimrod. Is a belief being honored in Tahiti? Nimrod is responsible. Why? Well who else would it be? If everything went forth from Babylon and the rule of Nimrod, then if it shows up anywhere, that’s because of Nimrod.

You’re not convinced?

Yeah. Neither am I.

Hislop also argued from similarities based on words. Of course, this would often be their English spelling but hey, we know the rest of the world always thought in English. It’s just like the people who think Jesus is a way of saying “Hey Zeus!” It’s the people who think Israel is a way of saying “Isis, Ra, and Elohim.” Do you think this sounds ridiculous? There are plenty of people who actually believe this.

Now a downside would be that if you’re a believer in Scripture, you’ll agree with a lot that Woodrow says. If you’re not, then chances are you could wind up walking away and thinking “Yeah. The Bible borrowed everything from the pagans too.” Of course, that’s not the fault of Woodrow because I don’t think this book is written to atheists, but I do know the way that too many online think. Everything in Christianity was borrowed from the pagans!

Whatever your stripe, take this book as a warning. Just because that source you are using points to multiple sources and looks compelling (*cough cough* Wikipedia *cough cough*) that does not mean it is reliable. Try and go back and check the sources as much as you can. If some atheists had done this with the Zeitgeist movie, they might not have embarrassed themselves so much by hyping it everywhere they went.

Also, Woodrow is certainly no Catholic and neither am I, but I do agree with him that there’s a great deal we agree with them

copycat Archives - Deeper Waters

www.deeperwatersapologetics.com

The Learner · Mar 5, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
Mr. Kreeft is speaking at my church next month. Can't wait . . .

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The Learner · Mar 5, 2024

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Peterlag · Mar 5, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
Mr. Kreeft is speaking at my church next month. Can't wait . . .

Am I to understand that the great G.K. Chesterton is the guy who exposes the anti-Catholic lies meaning he instructs everyone on how the Catholics have it correct?

amigo de christo · Mar 5, 2024

el diablo my friends . that be the answer to the question at hand . And He gave him his seat and great power ............

Augustin56 · Mar 6, 2024

Peterlag said:
Am I to understand that the great G.K. Chesterton is the guy who exposes the anti-Catholic lies meaning he instructs everyone on how the Catholics have it correct?

First of all, Mr. Chesterton died some time ago (1936), in case you didn't know. God rest his soul. But he was an English writer, philosopher, Christian apologist, and literary and art critic.

Chesterton created the fictional priest-detective Father Brown, and wrote on apologetics. Even some of those who disagree with him have recognised the wide appeal of such works as Orthodoxy and The Everlasting Man. Chesterton routinely referred to himself as an orthodox Christian, and came to identify this position more and more with Catholicism, eventually converting from high church Anglicanism. Biographers have identified him as a successor to such Victorian authors as Matthew Arnold, Thomas Carlyle, John Henry Newman and John Ruskin.

Where does the Pope get his authority?

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