A CONFUSING OF GODS LAW AND GOSPEL MESSAGES

We get it wrong every time

Find an orthodox Jew who has become a Christian (Messianic Jew)
He will tell you that when he came to Christ He wiped his brow and said WHEW !!!
Out with the old (law) and in with the new (Grace)

Then he comes among Western Christians and is astounded by the strange things we do
We were pagan Gentiles (no law) who came to Christ who saved us (by grace)
Then we spend the rest of our lives trying to become Jewish (law) and then always revert back to Grace (Jesus)
And we bounce back and forth between the two continually.

The Messianic Jew thinks this is a strange thing we do , and that is why we do not find them sitting beside us in our pews on Sunday Mornings.

The Jew has escaped the Law and does not want to go back to it.

And he wonders why we do.

Messianic Jews are not in pews on Sunday mornings because they still celebrate the biblical Sabbath, which is still takes place from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday.

Messianic Jews still observe the Torah as written in the Tanakh, but they understand that observing the Torah doesn't save them from their sins.

So there are only the two opponents of the "Gospel of salvation" and the "law of sin and death."?

That sounds a bit very simplistic, because the "law of sin and death" is not synonymous with God's law.

The "law of sin and death" simply states that death is the result of sin. Just like the law of gravity says if a body is cut loose in mid air it will drop back to the planet's surface.

Or as someone else said:

"Be careful to always ask the Holy Spirit of Truth WHAT LAW are we talking about when we read that word LAW in Scripture. Is it The Law of Sin & Death, The Law of Moses, The Oral Law (pope law, or church law, or man-made law), or the Royal Law of Love, life, and liberty? The Ten Commandments is the Royal Law of LOVE, life, and liberty. "

That's what most people get wrong when they read the apostle Paul. They never make this distinction, that is required to understand what he means each time, and what we then get is these typical forum threads that lump them all together. No wonder the multitude of misunderstandings, where grace and keeping the commandments of Jesus are being seen as belonging to two different covenants. That is not the case, there is no contradiction.

The ones under grace are the same ones that keep the commandments in the very end of times:

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

There is no contadiction between the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. If there is a contadiction it's based on faulty theology. Popular, but still wrong, because in the end Revelation will happen in real time, and all our theological conceptions will be just that: only concepts.

Tropical Islander said:

The Ten Commandments is the Royal Law of LOVE, life, and liberty.

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No, it is not. The law of liberty (the Royal Law) is the Law of Christ, not the 10 commandments. This is what the apostle Paul had to say about the 10 commandments:

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! (2 Cor 3:7-11)

The ministry of the 10 commandments was "fading" because rather than giving us liberty, it gave us death and condemnation.

These kinds of doctrines are based on faulty human logic and are accepted by people who allow "fine-sounding arguments" to nullify the gospel. One such argument is that removing the commandments results in "lawlessness" and implies that it is OK to lie, cheat steal, and so on, but that is an incorrect conclusion.

The law was not made for the righteous, but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, and so on (1 Tim 1:9).

Removing laws from the righteous does the same amount of damage as removing a straight-jacket from a sane person. Anyone who claims that he needs the law to restrain himself is implicating himself as a lawbreaker and denying what God has done for us through Christ.

We know that for God it is impossible to lie. Why? Is it because he us under the law? No! No law has the power to make lying impossible. What makes it impossible for God is that his very nature restrains him from lying, and that is the solution he has provided for us - through rebirth, God has poured out his nature into our hearts. IF we truly are in Christ, we are NOT restrained by a written code of law, but by God's own nature within us.

The ones under grace are the same ones that keep the commandments in the very end of times: Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

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And what were the commandments that John was talking about?

Did he mention the 10 comandments?

Did he mention the old covenant law at all?

Did he contradict Paul by saying that we are still under the Mosaic law?

Let's let John speak for himself:

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." 1 John 3:23

Re: UppsalaDragby

No you're wrong, Paul does confirms the 10 commandments here:

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

If you continue to study this, you will also find his negative confirmations, that means, things you can not do and go to heaven, as for example:

1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

what do the last 2 confirm? Thieves don't make it, "you shall not steal" - murders don't make it - you shall not kill.

That's scripture, these are the commandments, not forum theology. See the difference?

Tropical Islander said:

Re: UppsalaDragby

No you're wrong, Paul does confirms the 10 commandments here:

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

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You are drawing the wrong conclusion here. What Paul is saying (and this agrees entirely with his entire gospel message) is that the requirements made by these commandments are ALL covered by the law to love one's neighbour. Legalists try to reverse that process by ignoring everything else Paul writes and then use it to point back in the opposite direction. The law is a shadow (Hebrews 10:1), and since a shadow points out in which direction the reality is, we need to go in that direction.

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

If you continue to study this, you will also find his negative confirmations, that means, things you can not do and go to heaven, as for example:

1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

what do the last 2 confirm? Thieves don't make it, "you shall not steal" - murders don't make it - you shall not kill.

That's scripture, these are the commandments, not forum theology. See the difference?

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I have already dealt with these issues, but you seemed to have totally missed it. You are assuming that the way to aviod becoming a murderer, stealing, envying and so on, is to put yourself under the mosaic law. However scripture (not "forum theology") disagrees with you:

"The law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.". (Hebrews 7:19)

So why go from a BETTER hope by which we draw near to God, to one that is WORSE?

The ministry of the 10 commandments brought death and condemnation. Its glory was fading and this ministry was being replaced by a ministry that lasts. Do you acknowledge this or not?

UppsalaDragby,

you misunderstand what Paul says, you assume he introduces the commandments in order to get somewhere. The reality is he talks to Christians that now get reaffirmed about what to do in their Christian walk, now that they already are in Christ.

It's amazing we read the same scriptures and you go into this "justification thinking" just like everyone else. We approach this from two different ends it seems,

look it's really so simple a child can understand it, the blessed ones are the ones that keep the commandments:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

they do this by the power of the Spirit, BECAUSE they are saved, not in order to get saved. So that is the law of the Spirit in actual reality, that left the stage of infancy and now is in operation.

These are Jesus last and final words on that by the way, and he is the judge you have to answer about your and condemnation and death theories. That are true regarding the initial separation of law and Spirit, but only initially because you come to the wrong conclusion what its final outcome will be.

I understand what you're trying to say, it's Paul initial teachings for starters, but you have to move on from that position and see the final outcome of it all, how the actual walking in the Spirit of Romans 8 looks like in its final stage. See Rev 22.14 for direction once the blessing it contains has materialized.


Have been looking for the first announcements of the content of the new covenant for a few days, and finally found them:

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Not sure if anyone here understands what "keep my judgments, and do them." means, you seem to love the backwards thinking of justification so much you will automatically assume it's not compatible with walking in the Spirit. It will be, once you moved from the initial stages of understanding and see the reasons God gave us His Spirit. Try to see it from the "management side" of what God's purpose is with His creation.

I just can tell you that once God puts His laws in your inward parts, you will know it and appreciate it and also finally understand what Jesus means in Rev 22:14 - That is not about death and condemnation as someone would suggest, it's about life and the final stages of the saints of the new covenant.

Tropical Islander said:

UppsalaDragby,

you misunderstand what Paul says, you assume he introduces the commandments in order to get somewhere. The reality is he talks to Christians that now get reaffirmed about what to do in their Christian walk, now that they already are in Christ.

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Paul warned us about following "fine-sounding" arguments (Col 2:4) based on human reasoning (col 2:8) in favor of "sound doctrine" - where sound doctrine is what conforms to the gospel (1 Tim 1:10-11).

When I was younger in faith I also entertained thoughts along the lines you suggest, but I rejected these for the reasons given above. The idea itself is "fine-sounding", but there is absolutely nothing in any of Paul's writings that support this claim. In fact it just doesn't make sense given the verse in question because it would have been an incredibly simple thing for him, or any of the other apostles to say "now that you are saved, obey the 10 commandments". None of them do that. Anywhere. Which is surprising given the amount of scriptural text available to us.

Also, an interpretation like that does not harmonize with everything else Paul wrote about the law, but rather contradicts it. For that reason alone it is not "sound doctrine" and should be rejected.

look it's really so simple a child can understand it, the blessed ones are the ones that keep the commandments:

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

they do this by the power of the Spirit, BECAUSE they are saved, not in order to get saved. So that is the law of the Spirit in actual reality, that left the stage of infancy and now is in operation.

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What we have to remember here is that John, who wrote the book of Revelation, was a saint of the new covenant. Why do all those who lean towards a legalistic interpretation automatically assume that John was speaking of the 10 commandments here? He was not under the Mosaic law, but the law of Christ, which John himself defines in his first epistle:

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." (1 John 3:23).

This, according to the author of the Book of Revelation is what he commanded "us".

Now, the kind of "commandments" that God gave to the people of faith throughout the entire biblical record can be seen in Hebrews 11. These people were given to us as examples of those who were made righteous through faith. Notice that none of them were commended for their ability to obey the Mosaic law "under the power of the Spirit" (in fact we have at least two murderers and one liar on the list... just counting from the top of my head). Obviously, what they did through the power of the Spirit was not in obedience to a static code of law, but to the commandments of a living God.

Have been looking for the first announcements of the content of the new covenant for a few days, and finally found them:

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

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It is interesting that you bring up these verses, because they are very familiar to me. They verify exactly what Paul wrote about the difference between the old and the new coventants. The old covenant was written "not for the righteous", but for lawbreakers..etc", and if you read Hebrews 3:7-19 and continue on through Hebrews 4:1-13 you will see exactly why the old covenent law was given to the Jews at the time it was given.

Initially they were given the gospel, perhaps not in the form we are used to envisioning it today, but nonetheless. They did not combine the message they were given with faith and as a consequence they were given the Mosaic law - a law that was specifically formed to be given to those who reject the gospel. The gospel they rejected was a promise of rest that they were to receive in the land God had prepared for them in advance. Since God's promises never fail, the offer to enter that rest "remained", which is what Hebrews 4 speaks about. It remained until the promise itself came in the flesh so that the heirs of that promise - those who believed the gospel of Christ - were given a law of freedom, rather than a law of "works".

If you read Jeremiah 31:31 carefully you will see the same story. He says:

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them"

Here again you see the reason why the Jews were given the mosaic coventant - "which my covenant they brake". What coventant? The previous one - the gospel of faith which they rejected, although he, like a husband, led them out of Egypt with a powerful hand.

Jeremiah says that the new covenant would not be "according to" the old covenant. It would not be a covenant for lawbreakers, but a covenant for those made righteous through faith. A new covenant, that was also an old coventant, having a new law, that was also an old law.

As much as the glory of the new coventant surpasses the glory of the old, the new covenant is radically different from the old one. It is not just another set of rules. It works completely diffently. God neither stripped down the laws of the OT so that we could obey them, nor did he supercharge us with law-keeping powers for the same purpose. What he did do was regenerate us internally so that we would be able to understand both our weaknesses and how to overcome them in Christ.

He planted a seed in our hearts that we have the ability to nurture. But that is ALL the ability we have. We are still in a weak state in that we have a sinful nature and a flesh that causes us to stumble. I think if you are honest with yourself you will admit that too.

Not sure if anyone here understands what "keep my judgments, and do them." means, you seem to love the backwards thinking of justification so much you will automatically assume it's not compatible with walking in the Spirit. It will be, once you moved from the initial stages of understanding and see the reasons God gave us His Spirit. Try to see it from the "management side" of what God's purpose is with His creation.

I just can tell you that once God puts His laws in your inward parts, you will know it and appreciate it and also finally understand what Jesus means in Rev 22:14 - That is not about death and condemnation as someone would suggest, it's about life and the final stages of the saints of the new covenant.

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Well the fact that God has put his law in my heart has always been evident to me, and he has actually confirmed this for me in concrete ways all throughout my Christian life. I think I will listen to him, rather than someone who has absolutely no idea what exists in my "inward parts".

Well that was a very vague response, you should have a look at a "red letter Bible". You do not have a problem with John in Rev 22:14 - you have a problem believing Jesus, these are his words.

I understand that most people are living in Romans 7 and try to find a way into Romans 8. Now I told you that Romans 8 is not the end of the story, it actually continues into Romans 13.9 and beyond which as you can see is a higher number than 8, just as 8 is a higher reality of life than 7.

Now we don't know whats written on the heart, except when the mouth speaks about it. In that regard you would do good to look up the meaning of the word "antinomianism" - it's something you openly expressed here regarding the commandments, ignoring the warnings of Romans 13.9 and Rev 22:14 and since you brought up John, here is his take on that position:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

And it get's stronger, a bit too strong for some:

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Because of that Dispensationalism was so successful in America (and on the Internet - especially forums) , nobody likes to hear the truth about that, so now they claim it was not said to us. I would try to reconsider before its too late, neither dispense-ism nor antinomianism are part of the gospel.

Tropical Islander said:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

And it get's stronger, a bit too strong for some:

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

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In 1 John 3:23, the author clarifies what he means in 1 John 2:3-4.

1 John 3:23 (ESV): "And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us."

Tropical Islander said:

Well that was a very vague response, you should have a look at a "red letter Bible". You do not have a problem with John in Rev 22:14 - you have a problem believing Jesus, these are his words.

I understand that most people are living in Romans 7 and try to find a way into Romans 8. Now I told you that Romans 8 is not the end of the story, it actually continues into Romans 13.9 and beyond which as you can see is a higher number than 8, just as 8 is a higher reality of life than 7.

Now we don't know whats written on the heart, except when the mouth speaks about it. In that regard you would do good to look up the meaning of the word "antinomianism" - it's something you openly expressed here regarding the commandments, ignoring the warnings of Romans 13.9 and Rev 22:14 and since you brought up John, here is his take on that position:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

And it get's stronger, a bit too strong for some:

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Because of that Dispensationalism was so successful in America (and on the Internet - especially forums) , nobody likes to hear the truth about that, so now they claim it was not said to us. I would try to reconsider before its too late, neither dispense-ism nor antinomianism are part of the gospel.

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Romans 7 is the foundation for Rom.8. The 1st verse in 8 has the word 'therefore' in it. In Ch.8:5, we find confirmation of what Paul was teaching in ch.7, which is that this is all about the mindset. Walking in the Spirit is not done by our actions. It is done by our mindset.

Let us look at it logically. Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Here we have cause and effect. The effect cannot be the same as the cause, no more than smoke can be fire. If the effect is to not sin, then the cause cannot be "don't sin". But that is how some people define walking in the spirit. If that was the definition, then the passage would be saying "don't sin and you won't be sinning". Really?

But I do not want to take away from reply #14. How is it that when some people see the word 'commandments", that they can only think of the ten from Mnt. Sinai?

As for the law in our hearts, back to Rom.7. Paul said he was in agreement with the law. And furthermore, he said it was because of his mental agreement with it that any sin that he does is not attached to his identity.

And back to the lust of the flesh. John said that this was just one of three things in the world, the other two being the lust of the eyes and the pride of life (1John2:16). We must consider that any attempt to be justified through our own resources violates the third of these three. Furthermore, this is what Paul referred to as "flesh". In his letter to the Galatians, he related their attempt to be justified by law to the flesh.

So then, if one is truly walking in the spirit, he will not be doing anything to justify himself before God. Therefore while what we do or don't do is important, why we do or don't do it is equally important. cheers. I will be away for a while. carry on, saints

Tropical Islander said:

Well that was a very vague response, you should have a look at a "red letter Bible". You do not have a problem with John in Rev 22:14 - you have a problem believing Jesus, these are his words.

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MY response was vague???

I don't have the foggiest idea why you think Rev 22:14 should be a problem for me. What do you think these people used to wash their robes?

The law?

Their own works?

Their own blood?

Or the blood of Christ? <-- the correct answer.

I understand that most people are living in Romans 7 and try to find a way into Romans 8. Now I told you that Romans 8 is not the end of the story, it actually continues into Romans 13.9 and beyond which as you can see is a higher number than 8, just as 8 is a higher reality of life than 7.

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I am not "living in Romans 7", and all Romans 13:9 tells us is that by obeying the law of Christ we fulfill all the demands of every single commandment that exists in the OT. So what is your point?

Now we don't know whats written on the heart, except when the mouth speaks about it. In that regard you would do good to look up the meaning of the word "antinomianism" - it's something you openly expressed here regarding the commandments, ignoring the warnings of Romans 13.9 and Rev 22:14 and since you brought up John, here is his take on that position:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

And it get's stronger, a bit too strong for some:

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

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As I have already pointed out (which I think both Dodo_David and willimac expanded on), John explains what the word "commandments" are referring to, so why are you ignoring this and pretending that new covenant saints are referring to old covenant commandments.

Because of that Dispensationalism was so successful in America (and on the Internet - especially forums) , nobody likes to hear the truth about that, so now they claim it was not said to us. I would try to reconsider before its too late, neither dispense-ism nor antinomianism are part of the gospel.

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I do not consider myself to be a dispensationalist or an adherant of antinomianism, and I have never lived in America. I am a non-denominational apologist who does his best to avoid human doctrines and draw ALL his understanding from scripture. So don't try to pin a label on me. I study each and every claim made within Christianity and check up for myself whether or not they harmonize with the gospel. Despite this there is ALWAYS someone who claims that what he believe is the "truth" and that I am afraid to hear it.

My response: HOGWASH!

God bless you!

Ok, then tell me what laws are written on your heart. What is that inscription on your heart as part of the new covenant?

Every spirtual law has actual content, it's not only a phrase mixed with a vapor of vagueness

Alf likes the summary of John, I like the details Of Jesus of what the summary points to.

I find totally constancy of all scriptures I quoted, it's always the same commandments of Jesus - until the final page of Revelation. I have no idea why you don't understand that, what we do - verifies who we are. It's more than a thelogical belief system, it's true faith in action. Every page of the NT confirms that. It's a verification, to know who is who.

Back to scripture, what are we actually looking for? The commandments of Jesus. Where can i find a few of HIS personally expressed commandments, not your interpretations of what YOU think they are?

Tropical Islander said:

God bless you!

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Thanks, the same to you!

Ok, then tell me what laws are written on your heart. What is that inscription on your heart as part of the new covenant?

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With the coming of the new covenant God promised to write his law (God's Law) in our hearts and mind.

So what is "God's Law"?

Oh, it HAS to be the 10 commandments! They were written by the hand of God!!!

No, no, no... not so fast! We can see from Paul's writings that the law of God is not the Jewish law, but the law of Christ:

"To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law." (1 Cor 9:20-21)

Here Paul makes a clear distinction between the mosaic law, and God's law.

Every spirtual law has actual content, it's not only a phrase mixed with a vapor of vagueness

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What exactly are you talking about? What do you find vague?

Back to scripture, what are we actually looking for? The commandments of Jesus. Where can i find a few of HIS personally expressed commandments, not your interpretations of what YOU think they are?

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Are you looking for the things Jesus said to people trying to be justified by the law but were now willing to follow him, or those who were his disciples? I take it you mean the latter. So, here goes:

"Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, tell him that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away." (Matt 21:2-3)

"Jesus told the synagogue ruler, 'Don't be afraid; just believe.'" (Mark 5:36)

"Return home and tell how much God has done for you." So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him." (Luke 8:39)

Is that enough for you, or do you need more?

Perhaps you should read the book of Acts and see what the disciples were doing (i.e. their "Acts") even after Jesus was resurrected. These people were being urged by the Spirit of Christ to do things according to God's will. God is the God of the living.