I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

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So...this might be asking too much. I have noticed that for some reason, nothing seems to send people off the deep end like discussing the end times. People just get mad. If I disagree with their eschatology, then I must be the devil!

So...here's where I am. I grew up in a Christian house where we didn't really talk about end times much, but when we did, I suppose it was with a Pre-trib flavour, because that's what my Grandparents where. Once I grew up myself and became serious about my faith, I decided it was a doctrine that shouldn't be ignored, so I looked into it, assuming that I would follow in my Grandparents footsteps...wonderful, godly people that they were! However, I just couldn't read Pretribulationalism into scripture. So, after a few years of wrestling, I landed Amil (yes, I can hear many of you screaming!). And truly, I have not had my decision shaken throughout the years, only strengthened. I cannot...simply cannot, see how anyone can read Dispensationalism into the texts (sorry, no disrespect meant!).

That being said, I fully acknowledge that I'm faaaarrr from a scholar and could be wrong. And that plenty of godly, wonderful Christian people hold to that position. In fact I've just met a lady who is probably one of the smartest I've ever met (she used to be a scientist before she became ill) and she holds to the Pre-trib position. So I'm wondering how? How can she hold to a position that I consider slightly illogical?

So...I was hoping that some people here might answer (calmly...I really don't want to get into a name calling session) some questions I have about Pretribulationalism.

Ok, first one: How can you say that you hold to a 'literal interpretation', when you just don't? If Hal Lindsey can turn giant bugs into helicopters, then that's not being literal. If the 1000 years has to be a literal 1000 years, then when, in the OT, when God says he owns "the cattle on a 1000 hills"...then I suppose we can only assume he only owns them...not all of them (as the text clearly wants us to take away)....you get my drift. It seems you pick and choose 'literal' to suit your purposes, but then criticise us when we do it based on the genre of the book in question. How does that work? Do you have a hermeneutic behind how you pick and choose that I'm not aware of?

2nd: How can you find a 'gap' in the last of Daniel's 70th week? Doesn't your 'literal' interpretation mean that we'd need to be specifically told it's there? Even without specific's I don't see any sort of implication of it. Without specific, or implication, it seems to me that going to the text without a preconcieved notion of a 'gap' and then a seven year Tribulation wouldn't see you come away with one. It isn't there. So I suppose my question here is...where is it that you...exactly...get the gap? If it's simply the fact that "it hasn't happened yet", then I'm not sure that's strong enough. Do you have biblical evidence for there being, very specifically, a gap?

3rd: And this one is just a clincher for me. You believe that once Christ returns (second return, part 2) and ushers in his millennial reign on the earth, that after the thousand years, Satan will be released and that he will lead the 'nations' of the earth in a revolt against Jesus. Are we honestly saying that after our Lord and Saviour has ruled and reigned over us for a thousand wonderful years of peace and harmony, that humankind is going to experience another fall? This is really no small thing we're talking about. Jesus will be King. No one will be opposing him. Sure, you say not all mankind will be 'saved' and we all know what human nature is capable of. But the whole bible is full of dealing with the 'fall out' of the first rebellion. Can we truly believe that one, tiny verse in Revelation is all that the bible has to say about a potential kick in the teeth of Jesus' reign? It's obscene, the very thought of it, isn't it? I suppose what I'm asking for here, again, is what your views have to say on this. Is this view only based on Revelations 20...on that small verse there within?

4th: Probably my final question at the moment. I suppose one of the most baffling things I find about the Pre-trib, is how you manage to separate the two 2nd comings of Jesus. I simply cannot find that in scripture. Yes...I can find proof of the Rapture, the doctrine is clear...when Jesus returns Christians will meet him in the air, where we will be given our new bodies. However, I find nothing that tells me that this will be secretly seven years before his other coming. In fact, everything I find that mentions his return seems to be rather final. The Day of the Lord (2 Pet 3:10), also known as Christ's second coming (1 Cor 15:23-24, 2Thess 1:7) seems to usher in the renewal of the cosmos (2 Pet 3:10), the resurrection of the unjust (John 5:29), final judgment of the unjust (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:6, 8-9) as well as the resurrection of the just (John 5:29), final judgement of the just (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:7) and, of course, the defeat of the last enemy, death (1 Cor 15:23-26).
The same passage that talk about cosmic renewal talk about him coming as a thief...isn't that the term you use to describe the Rapture? You have to, because if you follow, we'll be able to calculate when he'll come next, after the Tribulation starts. He won't be thief-like then, he'll be 7 years to the dot.
So how do you separate all these events? How can Jesus return and Judge the unjust, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and make the cosmos new, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and put an end to death, if it's the Rapture? Where in any of these passages does it allow for a secret return with a seven year gap? I can't see it, and I'm not sure how you do? I'm open to passages and pointers if you have them....

Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com for a reply. Have fun reading. You have less than 150 days until the Daay of the Lord begins with the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments of Revelation
 

ScottA

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No-one can tell you really what the millennial reign will be like because we don't have enough scripture to declare it to us. We rely on our imaginations and what we think Christ is showing us.
I don't want to derail the thread, but you have given the answer about the so called millennial reign (above)...but don't seem to understand it yourself. If you too do not want to derail the thread, I will understand if you do not reply. But to clarify, below I have highlighted your correct answer...and then explained it:

What we can surmise from Ezekiel 40.... is that Jesus will rein from Jerusalem but will live north of Jerusalem. The division of the land places him in a section outside of the city. But he will go into the city to sit on his throne. According to Ezekiel he will be doing sacrifices in accordance with the Levitical laws. We are told by Isaiah that the lamb will lay with the lion. (I actually have a goat and a part wolf that play together as we speak). But we don't know if this is during the millennium or after the millennium. We do know from Ezekiel that anyone who does not bring their offerings to the prince, Jesus, will have their land cursed. This is of course if we can accept that the prince in Ezekiel is the Messiah. It says that he will offer sacrifice for his own sins as well as his people. That is curious. However, who else could this prince be?
This speaks of the New Jerusalem, not the carcass where the eagles gather. He reigns now, does he not? But where? He reigns in spirit, and comes to every believer in their own time of decision - not in their future.
 
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the_sign

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We are certainly in the end times now, today is the 1,702nd day of the 2,300 day cleansing period of Daniel 8:14.

On November 8, 2012 A.D., I sat face to face with the king of the south foretold in Daniel 11:40, that verse having the specific words, "time of the end", as does Daniel 12:4 and 12:9; and that autumn Thursday was the 58th day into the count (though I wasn't that privy at that time to the specifics of the numerics as I am now).

I have been praying about these things for dozens of years.

There has been much unnecessary tampering with the Book of Revelation that has led to much confusion and error; the warning within its contents is a pointer that it should only be read; given what has been necessary to open and unseal the Book of Daniel, such a warning makes perfect sense.

There remains then some 598 days until "the temple shall be cleansed"; the last three of which I can only conclude to be what many other prophecies refer to being the Three Days of Darkness.
 
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Naomi25

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Hi Theophilus, thanks for your reply! So many replies while I slept! I'm not sure how I'll have time to get to them all!

You said: "No, we do exactly what you do, consider the kind of writing so we can tell whether the author intended to statement to be literal. Poetry often contains figurative language so we know that many statements in the Psalms are not intended to be interpreted literally. Many of the teachings of Jesus are called parables, so they are not literally true. Historians generally don't use figurative language so historical statements are interpreted literally. Prophecy is history written before the events actually happened so it is generally to be interpreted literally."

How can it be interpreting literally, even according to genre for Hal Lindsey or even many others like Tim LeHaye to take a description of a demon scorpion and take that to mean war helicopters? Doesn't your own hermeneutic (history written in advance) still mean when these things come on the scene they actually HAVE to be demonic scorpion creatures? Because 'history' is factual reporting of real events.
Now, the genre of Apocalyptic writing, which we don't really have now, but was common in OT days, is full of descriptive writings that use symbolism to describe bigger truths. Take, for example, the terms of 'stars falling from the heavens' or 'the sky rolling up' or 'the mountains shaking'. That sort of world shaking/ending language. Big stuff, huh? And yet, several times in the OT (Isa 34:4, Nah 1:5) these terms were used in conjunction with civilizations falling. The stars didn't actually fall...but a great civilization did. While your hermenuetic demands you to look for actual stars falling...or perhaps giant demonic scorpions (or perhaps war helicopters), mine allows me to see world shaking events the God is using to usher in the end.
I really and truly cannot see how saying that seeing Revelation as 'history in advance' can help explain how you can insist we are to interpret the bible as literally as possible, but then seemingly skip over it when it suits.


You said: "Let's look at what Daniel 9:26,27 says.
And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.
The first sentence speaks of the anointed one, Christ, being cut off. This is the crucifixion, which took place at the end of 69 weeks. This was followed by the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in AD 70. After that come wars and desolation. This all takes place after the 69th week but before the 70th week. The 70th week begins when the prince makes a 7 year covenant."

Weellll. Actually...I think perhaps you and I see this passage a bit too differently to really have a short conversation about it. Amil people actually see the 'one' who makes the strong covenant with many as Jesus!! Just a tad of a difference! But I suppose I will say....that I still can't see
the 'gap' here. The only way you'd read it, is if you presupposed it. Does it say there will be a waiting period? Not really...not even a hint that I can see. If you weren't a Pre-triber when you read this passage, how on earth would you have come up with a massive gap? I just don't understand how you guys do it!? I mean...I get your calculations....I just don't see it in the text.


You said: "No, humankind doesn't experience a fall. This just shows the those born during the Millenium will inherit Adam's fallen nature and when they have the opportunity they will show their true nature by following Satan."

No...maybe they don't experience a true fall. Goodness knows human nature is bad enough to do terrible, terrible things. But still. Don't you think it's still just...well...wrong? Just wrong? "Gee, sorry Jesus. You failed. You've been here, ruling and reigning for a 1000 years. You're glorious and perfect and wonderful. And the bible has spent all this time ushering us towards your beautiful return. But after living with you for this long, a bunch of us are just going to kick you in the teeth." As I said. The whole idea is just obscene. And when you put it together with the fact that this so called 'revolt' has, like, 3 verses attached to it and that the bible spend so much more time talking about the endless glory when Christ returns. Well...I cannot make it fit. Biblically, it doesn't seem to fit. And well, I suppose I'm asking you if there are any other verses in all of the bible that give any kind of credence to such a notion. Because I don't think there are any.

You said: "Let's look at what Paul says about the rapture.
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)
He calls it a mystery, something that had not been previously revealed. When this takes place there will be a separation between the saved and the unsaved."

I would suggest he calls it a mystery because the notion of meeting the Lord in the air to receive our new bodies was a new idea, not previously known. Not, however, because it will be a 'secret' rapture. The text doesn't give us leave to insert a secret meaning into it. In fact, I would say exactly the opposite! A trumpet! And in the text of 1 Thess we hear that there is the cry of command! The voice of the archangel! It actually sounds pretty darn loud! But again, back to the point...if we read this text literally....does it say it will be a secret rapture? Can we really tell? Or must we take that notion to the text, only seeing it there once we have? Because truly...I cannot, no matter how many times I read it, see it.

You said: "But in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus describes how he will separate the sheep from the goats when he returns. This shows that some time must have elapsed between the rapture and his return so that there will be an opportunity for people to put their trust in him and be saved."

Time could have elapsed, but not necessarily. There is nothing that prevents that judgement from happening immediately after we are raptured and are given our new immortal bodies. Again, you are inserting a gap that doesn't need to be there, and doesn't actually appear in the text. You are assuming to suit your method. If you can show me a text that states there will be a time period between the two, fine. But I'm unsure of one myself.

Thanks for chatting with me. I'm aware of the rapture ready website thanks, I go there sometimes...it's a good resource for your view. And I do often value talking to those of your view, even if I struggle to understand it!
 

Naomi25

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If one believes in the mystery which is Christ in you then the srcond coming is an outwardly phrased event that takes place within us the kingdom of God Luke 17:20-21.
The prodigal son being an example of the divine seed that fell and died/slept in a flesh /far away land while experiencing tribulation which woke him up to where he came from, and dead to his father until his return. It all takes place in you not secular history Galatians 4:24, Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, 2Cor 3:6.

Um. Can I just clarify? Are you saying that Jesus Christ will not physically return?
 

Wormwood

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I appreciate your thoughts, Naomi. I also am an A-millennial. I think the only way to properly understand Revelation is to see it as a series of related visions (similar to what we see in Daniel) with different emphases. In fact, I have been reading Isaiah lately and it is striking how many parallels are there, especially in chapter 24. Anyway, keep up the good work!
 

Naomi25

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Hi Guestman! Thanks for replying.

You said: "I will chime in, taking on one subtopic at a time, starting with the "first one" on the "1000 years" in the Bible book of Revelation. The question of whether or not it is literal is a valid one. For example, in Koine Greek, the language that Revelation was written in, has a definite article "the" but does not have an indefinite article such as "a", such as "the man" showing a specific person as opposed to "a man" that leaves it as unclear as to who is spoken of.

At Revelation 20:6, the apostle John uses the definite Greek article ho (the) the ensure no ambiguity with regards to persons and time: "Happy and holy is anyone (literally "the one", having the definite Greek article ho) having part in the (Greek ho) first resurrection (establishing that there is only one "first resurrection"); over these the (Greek ho) second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God (literally "the God", establishing that there is only one "true God", John 17:3) and of the (Greek ho) Christ (only one Christ that serves as "the power of God and the wisdom of God", 1 Cor 1:24), and they will rule as kings with him for the (Greek ho) 1,000 years"."

I am not a bible scholar and I don't know Koine Greek. But I don't think you need to be to point out basic facts, truths or contradictions, etc.
Take, for example, the different using of the words 'a' and 'the' in reference to the 1000 years. I find it extremely interesting at the pattern that emerges.
v.2:bound him for a thousand years : 'a' thousand years..(a time that could mean an actual 1000 years, or a symbolic period of time that equals a perfect amount of time...just sayin'!)
v.3:until the thousand years were ended : 'the' thousand years that was just spoken of...
v.4:for a thousand years 'a' thousand years..
v.5:until the thousand years were ended : 'the' thousand years that was just spoken of...
v.6:they will reign with him for a thousand years : 'a' thousand years..
v.7:when the thousand years are ended : 'the' thousand years that was just spoken of...

You could be right. But don't you find it interesting that the passage speaks this way? It's not something you should wave away, I think, that every time the 1000 years is mentioned, it uses the 'a' first.

You said: "In addition, it is good if a person has some familiarity with Bible chronology. Our Maker, Jehovah God, established that the number "seven" has significance, meaning completeness of this or that with regard to his purpose. Seven days completes one week, and at Joshua 6, it says that "seven priests carrying seven ram's horns......marched around the city (of Jericho)......for six days".(Jos 6:13, 14)

But "on the seventh day.......they marched around the city seven times. And on the seventh time, the priests blew the horns" so that city wall fell down flat.(Jos 6:15, 16, 20) Hence, seven in the Bible means completeness with regard to accomplishing something when God is involved.(see Rev 1:20 with regard to the number "seven")

At Genesis 1, it shows that over a period of six "creative" days, God prepared the earth for the crescendo of his creation - man and woman. But at Genesis 2, it establishes that on the "seventh day" God "rested"or desisted from creating anything else.(Gen 2:2) His purpose for the earth, of having it filled with "meek" ones was yet to be fulfilled (Gen 1:28; Ps 37:11, 29), that being accomplished by the end of the "seventh day".

Thus, when one does a critical chronological examination (which I personally could not do, but only with help), based on a pivotal year (such as 14 C.E. when Augustus Caesar died or 539 B.C.E. when ancient Babylon was overthrown), it has been ascertained that Adam was created on 4,026 B.C.E. From that starting point in time, mankind has traveled forward some 6,000 years, placing us in the "last days".(2 Tim 3:1)

These "last days" or "the time of the end" (Dan 2:28; 12:4) is soon to end, for mankind has been in this time frame since 1914 C.E. and in which Jesus paralleled it with the "days of Noah".(Matt 24:37-39) So, counting the 6,000 years of human history and adding "the 1,000 years", this will complete the "seventh (creative) day" of about 7,000 years, as Jehovah has established the number seven as meaning completeness of a particular aspect of his eternal purpose.

Hence, at Revelation 20:6, "the 1,000 years" is literal and not far off from beginning."

I agree that the number 7 has significance. But so too do other numbers. In fact Revelation is full of numbers of significance! 4...the four corners of the earth...signifying that the whole world will be covered or effected. 10 and multiples of 10 imply a number of fullness of completion. All you need to do is do a bible search for '10' to see for yourself. The number 1000 (10x10x10) implies everything! All! Perfection complete!

He is the Lord our God;
his judgments are in all the earth.
15 Remember his covenant forever,
the word that
he commanded, for a thousand generations, (1 Chron 16:14-15)


God doesn't just remember his covenant for a literal thousand years, he remembers them forever!

The thing that baffles me is that Pre-trib followers clearly see that the bible can and does use numbers in this way sometimes. But when it comes to Revelation, they refuse to consider the idea that maybe John is as well. Yep...baffling.
 

Naomi25

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Conclusion: This child is a part of the body of Christ. Many have not received the Holy Ghost so how can they go with him. That doctrine you can prove for yourself. Others are living in fornication and practicing all kinds of abomination. They believe, but they are not going. Only the obedient will be caught up with "He who lets" They will be kept from the hour of temptation. The rest who are still walking in the flesh have not died to self yet. They will have to prove themselves worthy here during the final 3 1/2 years.

Study to show yourself approved rightly dividing the word of truth.

Hi LambofChrist. Your reply was simply to long to reply to, sorry, although I appreciate your response to my post! I can see that you are passionate about your view and clearly believe that is what scripture is saying, but I cannot see it myself, sorry. So, if I may, I'll agree to disagree!
 

Naomi25

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I appreciate your thoughts, Naomi. I also am an A-millennial. I think the only way to properly understand Revelation is to see it as a series of related visions (similar to what we see in Daniel) with different emphases. In fact, I have been reading Isaiah lately and it is striking how many parallels are there, especially in chapter 24. Anyway, keep up the good work!

Hi Wormwood, thanks! It's amazing, isn't it, how much language in Revelation you find in the OT? So much of the imagery is taken from the OT and makes it much easier to understand, especially when you look at it as a series of visions that repeat, only from different perspectives (from heaven, from earth, from those perishing, etc). When you look at it like that, it makes it less weird that "The Nations" who were destroyed by Christ's coming in Chapters 11, 16 and also 19 somehow are 'back again' after those chapters!!
 

bbyrd009

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Um. Can I just clarify? Are you saying that Jesus Christ will not physically return?
at least not until you wake up and physically manifest Him, yes. You are the Body of Christ. When all of the diviners and prognosticators on this thread have melted away and this guy is the one that is left, maybe then the narrow path will be a bit clearer. Of course this does not fit with human desires, but oh well. at least we don't have many days to wait, apparently.

You'd think they would have enough sense to divine a date safely past their last day at least, yikes. This place is gonna be pretty empty come the end of September i guess.
 

Glen55

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Um. Can I just clarify? Are you saying that Jesus Christ will not physically return?
Are you the temple of God? And when was the lamb slain? What is the tomb/prison of the spirit that the good news is suppose to unlock and set the captive free from tribulation? When does the letter kill the messenger?
 
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skypair

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So...this might be asking too much. I have noticed that for some reason, nothing seems to send people off the deep end like discussing the end times. People just get mad. If I disagree with their eschatology, then I must be the devil!
Well, this is kind of going to blow your view of dispensationalism and of the rapture out of the water. Mt 13 is the unveiling by Jesus of the entire DISPENSATIONAL plan of God beginning with Adam, the seed sown on the wayside, through the 2nd coming judgments of Christ (13:39-50, cf. Mt 25:13-46).

Imbedded in that is 1) church age (mustard tree), 2) the tribulation/the 70th week of Daniel (AntiChrist is the one who "leavens that meal" = barley/Gentiles + wheat/Jews till the whole WORLD is leavened). Though the "wheat" is mixed with "barley" to make "meal," the mustard seed has "disappeared" — been raptured before the tribulation.

The reason for 2 of everything ("2nd comings") is that there are separate plans for the church than for Israel. Therefore, each has a time of gathering that ends with a final war with Gog .. each has a rapture out of the earth (pretrib/Lk 21:36 vs. postmil/Rev 20:11) .. each has a different eternity (church in New Jerusalem vs. Israel in New Earth).
 

theophilus

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How can it be interpreting literally, even according to genre for Hal Lindsey or even many others like Tim LeHaye to take a description of a demon scorpion and take that to mean war helicopters?
John had never seen a helicopter so he would have no idea what it was if God showed it to him. He would have to describe it in terms he and his readers would understand.

No...maybe they don't experience a true fall. Goodness knows human nature is bad enough to do terrible, terrible things. But still. Don't you think it's still just...well...wrong? Just wrong?

One purpose of the Millenium is to prove that all people are basically evil and will do wrong when the have the chance.

does it say it will be a secret rapture?

No. The disappearance of a large number of people can't possibly be kept secret and the Bible never says it will be secret. In fact the Antichrist might make use of the turmoil caused by the rapture to seize power. If you read the Left Behind books you will get some idea of what might happen after the rapture.
 

Naomi25

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Are you the temple of God? And when was the lamb slain? What is the tomb/prison of the spirit that the good news is suppose to unlock and set the captive free from tribulation? When does the letter kill the messenger?

I'm not discussing what we already have in Christ. I asked you if you believe in Christ's physical return. Care to answer the actual question? Thanks.
 

Glen55

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Christ in you makes you the physical manifestation of Jesus who was a pattern of the inner birth from above, so no a singular version of Jesus (a pattern) isn't about secular history that happens outside, we are all carriers of the divine seed that has been weaved in the script in the letter of shadows and types told in symbology and allegory. Jesus even remarked about John being one of the best born of a earthly woman Matt 11:11 but would be least in the heavenly kingdom, which makes Jesus the spiritual man born from above Galatians 4:20-28 so I no longer buy the Roman human sacrifice theory that was never meant to be time stamped because the kingdom is where?
 

Naomi25

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Well, this is kind of going to blow your view of dispensationalism and of the rapture out of the water. Mt 13 is the unveiling by Jesus of the entire DISPENSATIONAL plan of God beginning with Adam, the seed sown on the wayside, through the 2nd coming judgments of Christ (13:39-50, cf. Mt 25:13-46).

Imbedded in that is 1) church age (mustard tree), 2) the tribulation/the 70th week of Daniel (AntiChrist is the one who "leavens that meal" = barley/Gentiles + wheat/Jews till the whole WORLD is leavened). Though the "wheat" is mixed with "barley" to make "meal," the mustard seed has "disappeared" — been raptured before the tribulation.

The reason for 2 of everything ("2nd comings") is that there are separate plans for the church than for Israel. Therefore, each has a time of gathering that ends with a final war with Gog .. each has a rapture out of the earth (pretrib/Lk 21:36 vs. postmil/Rev 20:11) .. each has a different eternity (church in New Jerusalem vs. Israel in New Earth).

I'm afraid I see no real evidence that Matthew 13 speaks of what you say it does. Yes it talks of the Kingdom of heaven. Yes I can see that perhaps the mustard tree speaks of the Church. But more likely it speaks of what it says it speaks of: the Kingdom of Heaven, of which the Church is a part, but it is not specifically talking of the Church. The kingdom of Heaven is perhaps described as a spiritual rule over the hearts and lives of those who willingly submit to God’s authority, which certainly describes the Church and includes the Church, but the Church comes in under it.

As far as seeing the tribulation or the AntiChrist in Chapter 13, I'm sorry, I just can't. As far as 'leavens' goes, the only reference I can see in Ch13 is a positive one.

He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.”

He's talking of the Kingdom of Heaven still, not the world or the AntiChrist. And he's speaking of the Kingdom's influence growing in the world.

The passages that speak of the good seed and weeds growing together. (Not sure where you get wheat and barely) It is an entirely different parable to the mustard seed, so I cannot see where you can get "the mustard seed (re: Church) is Raptured before the good seed and weeds go through tribulation". It's just not there. At all.

And I know the what the Pre-trib believe...that there is a separate plan for the Jews. But my desire is for biblical verses to prove this, because I cannot find any. Having people just repeat it does no help, I'm sorry. It becomes just as easy for me to repeat my position: Jesus was always the culmination of the Jewish people. From the garden of Eden God had planned to send Him (the Protoevangelium: "bruise his heel"), the ultimate Jewish King, perfect and pure. It was he that inherited all Jewish promises made to Abraham and David. In Christ the Jews, indeed the world, have everything, if but they accept him as Messiah and Lord. Christ breaks down the distinction between Jew and Gentile, and we see this repeated argument in Paul's books. There IS no Jew and Gentile, only saved and unsaved in Christ or without him.

You see...I suppose you don't believe me either. I'm aware that you believe in a very separate agenda. The purpose of this thread is that I just can't see it, and I struggle to understand how you can even find or justify it in scripture. So please, if you truly believe the bible teaches a very distinct separation between us, show me. Because all I see is Paul trying very hard to teach us differently.
 

Naomi25

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Christ in you makes you the physical manifestation of Jesus who was a pattern of the inner birth from above, so no a singular version of Jesus (a pattern) isn't about secular history that happens outside, we are all carriers of the divine seed that has been weaved in the script in the letter of shadows and types told in symbology and allegory. Jesus even remarked about John being one of the best born of a earthly woman Matt 11:11 but would be least in the heavenly kingdom, which makes Jesus the spiritual man born from above Galatians 4:20-28 so I no longer buy the Roman human sacrifice theory that was never meant to be time stamped because the kingdom is where?

So that's a resounding no, then?
 

Naomi25

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John had never seen a helicopter so he would have no idea what it was if God showed it to him. He would have to describe it in terms he and his readers would understand.

I'm sorry, but that explanation just doesn't hold water. Even back then, John would have had some sort of knowledge of rudimentary Roman siege machine. He would have been able to identify it as some sort of foreign machine. He could have labeled it as a confusing, indescribable machine, before going on to try and describe it in some way. You are taking the most complicated (and perhaps convenient) explanation.
Let me ask you this....in Daniel, when Daniel sees those beasts, one with a head like a lion, with eagle wings, feet like a man....etc. They are strange and confusing beasts, mixed and matched from real creatures. But no one tries to say Daniel was really seeing helicopters or something equally ridiculous. No...they understand that the creatures are symbolic for nations. Why is it so hard to think that these strange creatures in Revelation could be similar? Why is it impossible they could be symbolic for something? We have a biblical precedent. And I would say a biblical precedent is a better starting point than allowing someone a few thousand years later to suddenly decide it was helicopters, wouldn't yous say?

One purpose of the Millenium is to prove that all people are basically evil and will do wrong when the have the chance.

Um. We need a Millennium for that?

No. The disappearance of a large number of people can't possibly be kept secret and the Bible never says it will be secret. In fact the Antichrist might make use of the turmoil caused by the rapture to seize power. If you read the Left Behind books you will get some idea of what might happen after the rapture.

I have read the Left Behind books. They were a great read and I can appreciate that they probably introduced a lot of people to Jesus. But I can't say they changed my mind.
And yes, clearly millions of people missing can't be a secret! :) I think it gets called that because Christ's coming is 'in secret'...as in, no one see's him...except those being taken I presume. Don't get me wrong...it sounds glorious. But I just can't find it in the bible. Every passage that talks of his return, talks of it in conjunction with other events that are 'age ending' if you know what I mean. Judging, resurrecting, renewing...that sort of thing. To my way of thinking, the only way you get the earlier rapture, is by popping in the gap in the 70th week of Daniel. And as I can't see any way of reading that gap into that passage either, I'm at a loss!
 

101G

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4th: Probably my final question at the moment. I suppose one of the most baffling things I find about the Pre-trib, is how you manage to separate the two 2nd comings of Jesus. I simply cannot find that in scripture. Yes...I can find proof of the Rapture, the doctrine is clear...when Jesus returns Christians will meet him in the air, where we will be given our new bodies. However, I find nothing that tells me that this will be secretly seven years before his other coming. In fact, everything I find that mentions his return seems to be rather final. The Day of the Lord (2 Pet 3:10), also known as Christ's second coming (1 Cor 15:23-24, 2Thess 1:7) seems to usher in the renewal of the cosmos (2 Pet 3:10), the resurrection of the unjust (John 5:29), final judgment of the unjust (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:6, 8-9) as well as the resurrection of the just (John 5:29), final judgement of the just (Matt 25: 31-33, 2 Thess 1:7) and, of course, the defeat of the last enemy, death (1 Cor 15:23-26).
The same passage that talk about cosmic renewal talk about him coming as a thief...isn't that the term you use to describe the Rapture? You have to, because if you follow, we'll be able to calculate when he'll come next, after the Tribulation starts. He won't be thief-like then, he'll be 7 years to the dot.
So how do you separate all these events? How can Jesus return and Judge the unjust, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and make the cosmos new, if it's the Rapture? How can he return and put an end to death, if it's the Rapture? Where in any of these passages does it allow for a secret return with a seven year gap? I can't see it, and I'm not sure how you do? I'm open to passages and pointers if you have them...

GINOLJC, Good topic. Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope”. to answer any end time questions, one must answer first, present time questions. #1. we’re in a grace period, which fulfills Psalms 110:1 now, even as we speak. #2. The return of the Lord Jesus is two fold. (two 2nd comings of the Lord Jesus), note, after his resurrection these returns happens. which answers, Matthews 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Mark 9:1. yes, his first return have already happen, and that return happen on the Day Pentecost, (Acts chapter 2), foretold by the prophet Joel. this Day of Pentecost coming was in Spirit and in power, John chapter 14 back this up, which also answers his second return, yet to happen. this second of a two fold return will be in bodily form, (date unknown), but his return will be in the clouds and every eye will see him, (Rev 1:7, and Acts 1:10 & 11) this return can happen at anytime (see Revelation 2:5, 2:16, 3:11, 22:7, 22:12 and 22:20. knowing this, it answers all #4 question above. for as we speaks, Present times, he sits in heaven on the throne, (Revelation chapter 4 & 5)