Charles Spurgeon's Sanity Litmus Test (are you insane?)
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I have talked with atheists who called what we as Christian say circular logic. Perhaps in a sense it is, but so long as it comes to us from God as we speak it, does even that matter?
God knows!
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:27
All of His sheep are hearing and following. If we are not hearing His voice, then there is another question we need to ask.
God knows and that is the important thing. I may sometimes know, but I should always be striving and asking Him for help to do things always in agreement with Him. If there are three different interpretations, it is possible that for three people in three different places three is correct. What is happening in another person's heart between that person and God is not usually my business. If it is my business and I am paying attention to Him, God will let me know.
Who would you suppose? My decision would be worthless if it were opposed to God's.
Only if God shares the information with us.
Marymog
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My dear friend,@Marymog Mary thank you so much for your good, clear and honest post. Nice to hear the real Mary speaking.
You didn't "hear the real Mary speaking" "from the heart" on what I "believe" in post #32, 75, 78, 82, 86, 93, 102??? Not just on this thread but all the other threads I have posted on?
Maybe the "real Mary" ALSO holds people accountable when they say they believe something but the don't back it up? Is it possible to do both?
None the less. Thank you for the....compliment?
Mary
Marymog
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You are using circular answers/reasoning.
Who is us? Who does He share it with? How do we know when He is sharing something with us?
Mary
The "us" includes all with whom He shares. I should know when God shares something with me but many times He also share things with others but I seldom know who they are because it is not my business to know.
Again on your circular reasoning thing. Don't trust simply to logic on all of these things. That may be a good thing at times, but we cannot find out all that God has for us by logic. Trusting too much in logic is like trusting too much in our five senses.
What can a blind man see when he is led by a blind man? This planet Earth has an overwhelming number of people who are blind to the things of God. Many of them, I believe, are the leaders of nations and other large groups of people. Where are they going?
Marymog
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Dear Sir,
Your statement makes absolutely ZERO sense. You stated you should know when God shares something with you? How do YOU know when God is sharing something with YOU? Does he strike you with lighting when He shares something with you? Are you given a specific sign when it's from God and not some random thought in your head? I don't understand!! What if I KNOW that God shared something with me and it is OPPOSITE with what you say God shared with you? Who is right? (I know, according to your logic, only God knows)
When God, as you stated, "shares things with others", how do we KNOW when God shared something with that person? How do we know it wasn't satan?? The Pope says abortion is murder. The leader of the Church of Christ says that abortion is not murder. Both say that God has shared that with them. How do we know which one God really shared with? (I know, according to your logic, only God knows)
However, in a previous post you said: All of His sheep are hearing and following. If we are not hearing His voice, then there is another question we need to ask.
If his sheep are hearing and following how do we know which are His sheep? Are you one of His sheep? (I know, only God knows)
How do you know if your hearing His voice? How do you know if your one if His sheep or if your a goat? Maybe the voice your hearing is Lucifer's? If the voice in my head says the opposite of the voice in your head who's voice is right?? (I know, only God knows)
How do you know the hearts of the leaders of nations and other large groups of people?? How do you know they are blind to the things of God?? Did God share this information with you??? (I know, according to your logic, only God knows)
You, Amadeus, seem to KNOW a lot of things but when it comes to specifics you can't seem to give a direct answer; only a circular one.
Maybe, just maybe, since God has been speaking to us via the Old Testament and New Testament, several thousands of years combined, we really do KNOW. Maybe, just maybe, your 'God only knows' theory is not true and we do know what God thinks?
IHS...Mary
So long as you speak in hypotheticals the answers are not likely to get clearer, because I don't believe that God ever speaks hypothetically.
It is to be two way communication between each believer and God. But... many people have not allowed the connection to be established or they regularly break the connection. When they quench the Spirit of God in them that is breaking the connection.
God never contradicts Himself, but people who are not listening all of the time and/or who are quenching the Spirit even part of the time will like have a mixed message, part God and part mammon. Most people do this, so it is not unusual for seemingly contradictory beliefs to exist. These are the ones that at some point may be spued [spit] out of God's mouth.
It is not logic, but according to the scripture:
"For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves." Job 34:21-22
"O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Psalm 139:1-6
[By the way the Church of Christ, as I understand it, has no leader among men corresponding to the Pope.]
Why do we need to know which one is right, if either one is? If we have our own connection with God, should we not know what we need to know?
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
No, not simply God knows [although He does]. If we are one of His sheep then we are hearing His voice. If we are not hearing His voice or we doubt whose voice we are hearing, that is when we have another question: Am I a sheep of His? If not, how can I become one of His sheep?
No, again for while God does know, we must become His friend. How would we not recognize the voice of a friend?
Again as to seemingly conflicting messages from God: There are none. One or both person is in error. The only one you can work on directly is you. Indirectly of course you can also pray for the other person, but pray the right prayer.
Again, not by my logic, but according to God's Spirit I am right because I and hearing and paying attention or I am wrong because I am quenching the Spirit.
Do we need to know the hearts of our leaders? If we do and we are trusting God then we will. Do we know the difference between right and wrong in any thing according to God? If we are trusting God always then we do.
You want general rules when there may not be general rule. For example we read in the NT:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14
But then we read this in the OT:
"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD." Hosea 1:2
Has God changed? Has His Word changed? God forbid, but by our learning of black and white rules, instead of following the Holy Spirit today, we have not understood what He was or is doing or what He wants us to do.
Do you Mary always knows what God will think in every situation that lies before you in your own life? Or do you simply trust that He will lead you the right way along the highway of holiness?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
It is to be two way communication between each believer and God. But... many people have not allowed the connection to be established or they regularly break the connection. When they quench the Spirit of God in them that is breaking the connection.
God never contradicts Himself, but people who are not listening all of the time and/or who are quenching the Spirit even part of the time will like have a mixed message, part God and part mammon. Most people do this, so it is not unusual for seemingly contradictory beliefs to exist. These are the ones that at some point may be spued [spit] out of God's mouth.
If you are hearing from God you will know what you need to know when you need to know it.
It is not logic, but according to the scripture:
"For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.
There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves." Job 34:21-22
"O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Psalm 139:1-6
[By the way the Church of Christ, as I understand it, has no leader among men corresponding to the Pope.]
Why do we need to know which one is right, if either one is? If we have our own connection with God, should we not know what we need to know?
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
No, not simply God knows [although He does]. If we are one of His sheep then we are hearing His voice. If we are not hearing His voice or we doubt whose voice we are hearing, that is when we have another question: Am I a sheep of His? If not, how can I become one of His sheep?
No, again for while God does know, we must become His friend. How would we not recognize the voice of a friend?
Again as to seemingly conflicting messages from God: There are none. One or both person is in error. The only one you can work on directly is you. Indirectly of course you can also pray for the other person, but pray the right prayer.
Again, not by my logic, but according to God's Spirit I am right because I and hearing and paying attention or I am wrong because I am quenching the Spirit.
Do we need to know the hearts of our leaders? If we do and we are trusting God then we will. Do we know the difference between right and wrong in any thing according to God? If we are trusting God always then we do.
You want general rules when there may not be general rule. For example we read in the NT:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14
But then we read this in the OT:
"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD." Hosea 1:2
Has God changed? Has His Word changed? God forbid, but by our learning of black and white rules, instead of following the Holy Spirit today, we have not understood what He was or is doing or what He wants us to do.
Do you Mary always knows what God will think in every situation that lies before you in your own life? Or do you simply trust that He will lead you the right way along the highway of holiness?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
God not only made up our rules but also those that atheists follow...the Natural Law.
As far as who decides correct doctrine...
I've often said that the Reformation was necessary because of the abuses in the CC.
Want a list? I'm sure you don't need one.
But look where we are today...in a mess.
People pick up the Bible and make up their very own private doctrine.
This is wrong.
Different churches also make up their own doctrine which does not always agree.
Persons are closer to God though. The ones we find at Mass really want to be there.
Jesus said we are to e of one mind.
The CC has respected and honored biblical truths and I admire that.
I've stated many times that I'm confused as to my belief on this subject.
I like the Nazarene church.
I do believe that the CC is the original church...simple history.
I like the church in the first few centuries ... Then it changed.
I dislike Augustine ,,, he changed a lot and I've never understood his power.
That's about it...
P.S.
Yes. Jesus did come to set up the Kingdom of God here.
The rules can be found in the gospel of Mathew, Luke and John.
(Mark is a repeat).
You'll find the rules written in red.
Hi Mary,
I would suggest that both churches believe in murder being wrong, but the issue is when each church considers a life to be a life - that is where the differences lay. Definition of life can vary from one person to another, some view life as being from the very beginning of fertalization, some when the heart starts to beat, some later on in a pregnancy and some when the baby is born. If you wholeheartedly believe that a life is not a life until a certain time , then you would not define an abortion as ending a life, so it would not be murder. This is how some can have a clear conscience , while others believe it is wrong.
Now, just for the record, I believe life is life from the very beginning of a pregnancy - so I personally ( even though I have been offered one in the past) would not have an abortion. However others have other viewpoints.
You will simply never getting every Christian agreeing on the matter of abortion, but on murder I think we would all agree X
Butterfly
Marymog
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Thank you GG.
Natural law is different than "rules" in the Kingdom of God. I assumed you knew the rules since you said, "If two are living in the Kingdom of God here, then they should follow those rules."
I am well versed in the history of the abuses of ALL the churches (denominations) so I don't need a list of those abuses. Just because there were some abuses in The Church that does not make their doctrine invalid. If their doctrine is invalid because of those abuses that means God abandoned The Church and it went into doctrinal error? That would suggest that Satan prevailed. I don't believe God abandoned The Church and allowed it to go into error and Satan prevailed. If one can say that about The Church then they could say that about any church (denomination). Couldn't one say there are "abuses" in the Nazarene church also? Does that make their doctrine wrong?
When you say the Nazarene church are you talking about the Church of the Nazarene? Articles of Faith | Church of the Nazarene
What do you believe "changed" after the first few centuries? To more narrowly focus the discussion (if your willing to discuss your statement) you can just give me your top three list of changes
What are the top three things you disagree with Augustine on?? He is in my opinion and all Christian theologians opinions one of the GREATEST minds in Christian history.
BTW.....The Church was aware of it's "abuses" and was in the process of reforming itself before the Reformation. Historically we know of Francisco Ximénes de Cisneros, Desiderius Erasmus, John Colet, St. Thomas More, Cardinal Jiménez AND the spiritual movement of the devotio moderna. The only thing the Reformation did was cause a revolution that divided Christianity and Christianity is now more divided than before the Reformation.
IHS...Mary
Marymog
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Thank you Butterfly.
In an effort to put this discussion in context amadeus said: If two people receive the same message from the scripture I quoted there would be no difference between. If they don't it won't. The final authority whether one or the other or neither is right belongs to God.
Since he believes the "final authority...belongs to God" the question then is, HOW DO WE KNOW when our belief agrees with Him?
So I will ask you the same question: Using your 'when each church considers a life to be a life' scenario how do we know which church got the definition of 'the beginning of life' right? Both churches use scripture to support their belief. Using scripture, how do we KNOW the beginning of a pregnancy is the beginning of life? Either one church is condoning a murder when they participate in an abortion OR one is not condoning a murder.
As you said, and I agree with you, both churches believe in murder being wrong, but I am asking who has the authority to decide which church is right on abortion? It is not a matter of getting every Christian to agree on this. Abortion is either murder or it isn't. If we can agree that murder, stealing, raping and assaulting someone is wrong why can't we agree abortion is wrong? Certainly God has revealed this to us?
IHS...Mary
Marymog
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Hi Marymogl
I must admit that I have never been part of a church that has a solid view on abortion , I have always seen the abortion issue as being a personal one. I did an ethics course with the London bible college because I wanted to assess how I personally felt about a whole range of issues. So I can join in fellowship with people having different views because Gods knows the individual heart and understanding.
I find it hard to understand how anyone can believe it is not taking a life once the heart starts to beat - to me that defines life because death is defined by the heart stopping. I can see how there is a grey area earlier than that when it is just an egg that devides ect- but I believe in the potential of life. Scripturally, I guess ' you knit me together in my mothers womb ' ( is that in Jeremiah or the psalms ).
I equally find it hard to understand how anyone can only define life when a baby is born, that staggers me- and if a church was making that a concrete fact, then I am pretty sure God would class it as murder. When a baby kicks, it's alive and responding.
I guess what I would be curious about is how the church that's says ' it's okay ' backs it up - so I would love to know what lay behind the reasoning, only then can you truly weigh up their conclusion.
We are called to discern.
I do believe God has the final authority, he alone will judge the church ( his people ) he will judge those who mislead others with false teaching. Equally he will also know why they have believed what they believe- he knows far more about satans deceptive powers than us.
I think there are other areas where there are differences - divorce, birth control, re marriage , war ect.
I know you want a firmer answer from me, but sadly it's not something I can give - I trust in Gods sovereignty, fairness, understanding and knowledge - and other peoples viewpoints, whether that be collectively or as individuals, is between them and him.
Butterfly
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Yes, well...you won't get any argument from me. I agree with all you've said except I'm not sure the CC was in a state of change before the reformation. I'm not versed enough on this subject to know this.Thank you GG.
Natural law is different than "rules" in the Kingdom of God. I assumed you knew the rules since you said, "If two are living in the Kingdom of God here, then they should follow those rules."
I am well versed in the history of the abuses of ALL the churches (denominations) so I don't need a list of those abuses. Just because there were some abuses in The Church that does not make their doctrine invalid. If their doctrine is invalid because of those abuses that means God abandoned The Church and it went into doctrinal error? That would suggest that Satan prevailed. I don't believe God abandoned The Church and allowed it to go into error and Satan prevailed. If one can say that about The Church then they could say that about any church (denomination). Couldn't one say there are "abuses" in the Nazarene church also? Does that make their doctrine wrong?
When you say the Nazarene church are you talking about the Church of the Nazarene? Articles of Faith | Church of the Nazarene
What do you believe "changed" after the first few centuries? To more narrowly focus the discussion (if your willing to discuss your statement) you can just give me your top three list of changes
What are the top three things you disagree with Augustine on?? He is in my opinion and all Christian theologians opinions one of the GREATEST minds in Christian history.
BTW.....The Church was aware of it's "abuses" and was in the process of reforming itself before the Reformation. Historically we know of Francisco Ximénes de Cisneros, Desiderius Erasmus, John Colet, St. Thomas More, Cardinal Jiménez AND the spiritual movement of the devotio moderna. The only thing the Reformation did was cause a revolution that divided Christianity and Christianity is now more divided than before the Reformation.
IHS...Mary
For instance Moore died for his beliefs. It seems to me that there were some individual cases that saw the abuse of power in the church, but I don't see a general change, although, as I've said, I don't know this for sure.
Augustine CHANGED the original church. I know he's seen as one of the great minds of Christendom. But it's thanks to him that Mr. Calvin came along with his ideas, and I truly dislike Calvinism, for which I could thank Augustine. That would be predestination.
Infant baptism. This also was expoused by Augustine. And I'm sure you know why...
Original Sin. Original sin did not exist before him. It was not understood as he explained it. Augustine declares that we are imputed the sin of Adam. The bible clearly states that we are each responsible for our own sin. The CC says, now, that the sin of Adam is propogated to us which is different. I guess even they have decided to abandom, somewhat, Augustine's claims.
Let's see. What else...
Oh. In his earlier days, he stated that he knew where evil comes from, or how it got to be a part of all fibre in the universe. Interesting, since we still don't know. But, alas, before dying and as a wiser old man, he did declare that he was wrong and did not know how evil originated.
As to the early church... I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
Pre the Nicene creed (not because I disagree with it). Pre Constantine.
Pre the chuch (small c) and state becoming one.
All one has to do is read the ECF. And the didache. What could be more simple? If we could just all agree on that.
(oh. And Augustine came out of gnosticism which affected his ideas)
Instead, no. We have some kind of new Christianity.
Watered down and of no use to anyone.
All we need to do is "believe" in Jesus and we're saved...
some don't even know what believe in the greek means.
Jesus did it all, we need do nothing.
The Law is dead.
The Law has been abolished.
We're under the new covenant which requires nothing from us.
We were chosen before time to be saved.
The rest are going to hell.
Annihialism has reared its head.
Oh. And God is actually insulted if we try to help Him along by obeying Him.
So. Yes. I'm upset with how things are going for Christianity.
But I don't have the power to change it like Augustine did...and for what reason I still don't understand.
And might I add, that I know for sure that the CC is softening up as well. Although not as much as the Protestant churches.
Helen
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bbyrd009
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Helen
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Okay, I will buy it...was that directed at me and jimd ?If so, consider your head smacked lol
bbyrd009
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HA! nope, that is just what came to mind lol
If so, consider your head smacked lol
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