Church

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

amadeus said:
long studies to determine why. I don't know for sure the reasons

oh stop you do too, they are basically as apparent as the number symbology to you, i'm sure.

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

amadeus said:
Even so I would be very cautious about accepting the reason which BOL provided, which was only a support for the idea that it originated with men rather than with God.

imo it takes intensive indoctrination to bring someone to that opinion, i mean one would have to basically be a Cradle Catholic or whatever to even entertain that, yes. (with apologies to BoL. God knows this, and will judge him differently i guess)

ScottA · Nov 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
hmm, i got this differently; i'll have to review there i guess, ty. i guess first we gotta fix "church" there, to diff from Church, 1 Corinthians 14:34 Lexicon: The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says., and then obv someone speaks in/to congregations who is a member of the Church proper; do you feel no thoughful response is ever indicated? What if the preacher is in error, what then, in your opinion? ty

If we understand that the church is built of those born again of the spirit of God, who no longer live, but Christ lives in them...then it is only Christ who should speak in church, not His bride. This is the reign of Christ, not the reign of those who died to sin, as some kind of zombie gathering. Unfortunately, there are a lot of zombies leading the church.

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
I am having to come to the acceptance that many people will never let go of what they believe , for a deeper truth, because they so arrogantly assert that they are right 100%.

well, imo "never" is merely the perception there; i note that i once asserted i was right 100% and changed (i think), and prolly many others, too.

hey, i just did that "quote/reftag up/reply" thing i was talking about a minnit ago

amadeus said:
They do us carnal good as well as spiritual good especially when we seem to be getting too full of ourselves.

Word

BreadOfLife · Nov 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
gotta agree with A here, they really are different. You (one) can refrain from having any opinion at all on a matter, once they have realized this (changed their minds), anyway

This isn't a matter of simply "refraining" from having an opinion. It is the absolute rejection of the belief in the Trinity.

Boy - are ALL Protestants taught to rationalize this much??

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

ScottA said:
If we understand that the church is built of those born again of the spirit of God...there are a lot of zombies leading the church.

this is why we need to differentiate imo

BreadOfLife · Nov 21, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
Amen John
I totally agree...That is how I hold all things...I believe them...but I 'hold them loosely' because I 'could' just be wrong. I doubt it, but I could. That is wisdom.
So many people get angry and rude when told ...'No, you actually do not KNOW, because the time is not yet on the full revelation of all things...then, and then only will we understand the right and wrong of it.'
But, I am having to come to the acceptance that many people will never let go of what they believe , for a deeper truth, because they so arrogantly assert that they are right 100%.
( which means they are totally closed, and no longer have a teachable spirit and heart before the lord. Stunted....but they do not know it. )

If you believe things that you aren't completely certain about - why do you believe at all??

I don't believe in the Gospel because it MIGHT be a good idea, but I MIGHT be wrong about that.
I believe because I am 100% certain that it is the way to salvation.

If I told you ans Amadeus and bbyrd that Satan was our creator - would you reject that belief or would you simply say you "don't believe" it because you might change your mind later?

If you're not certain about what you believe and WHY you believe it - then your faith is pretty shaky . . .

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

BreadOfLife said:
This isn't a matter of simply "refraining" from having an opinion. It is the absolute rejection of the belief in the Trinity.

i'd have to disagree, as i also do not completely reject the concept of Trinity, as A has already stated that he does not. So really this strikes me more as a lack of communication, and a refusal to hear the testimony of valid witnesses wadr. Fwiw Trinity strikes me the same as most other doctrines; 99% correct

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

we have about 4 threads in here now lol; someone care to break them out?

amadeus · Nov 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
oh stop you do too, they are basically as apparent as the number symbology to you, i'm sure.

Many things are very apparent to some while others remain very blind indeed. They keep forgetting Jeremiah's words [if they ever knew them].

"I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Jeremiah writes of a man who walks in his flesh trying to follow God. Following closely to the rules of any church organization, no matter how well written they are, similarly will not work without God's help. Alone we are lost and undone.

BreadOfLife · Nov 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
i'd have to disagree, as i also do not completely reject the concept of Trinity, as A has already stated that he does not. So really this strikes me more as a lack of communication, and a refusal to hear the testimony of valid witnesses wadr. Fwiw Trinity strikes me the same as most other doctrines; 99% correct

Read my last post #507 . . .

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

BreadOfLife said:
This isn't a matter of simply "refraining" from having an opinion. It is the absolute rejection of the belief in the Trinity.

Boy - are ALL Protestants taught to rationalize this much??

ha well are all Catholics taught to be so cocksure? C'mon BoL, it is a central concept of maturing, that one go from a false literal "knowing" to a more mature understanding. Recognizing that i do not need to have an opinion on a matter was pretty hard, for me anyway

watch the moose actually sniff the tip of the arrow at 1:45

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

BreadOfLife said:
If you believe things that you aren't completely certain about - why do you believe at all??

I don't believe in the Gospel because it MIGHT be a good idea, but I MIGHT be wrong about that.
I believe because I am 100% certain that it is the way to salvation.

If I told you ans Amadeus and bbyrd that Satan was our creator - would you reject that belief or would you simply say you "don't believe" it because you might change your mind later?

If you're not certain about what you believe and WHY you believe it - then your faith is pretty shaky . . .

if your faith is tied up in your beliefs, certainly. An excellent primer on the diff in belief and faith imo. Thread #5 lol

Helen · Nov 21, 2017

BreadOfLife said:
If you believe things that you aren't completely certain about - why do you believe at all??

I don't believe in the Gospel because it MIGHT be a good idea, but I MIGHT be wrong about that.
I believe because I am 100% certain that it is the way to salvation.

If I told you ans Amadeus and bbyrd that Satan was our creator - would you reject that belief or would you simply say you "don't believe" it because you might change your mind later?

If you're not certain about what you believe and WHY you believe it - then your faith is pretty shaky . . .

Sorry I think I must have written that incorrectly. I do tend to do that! "I" understand what I mean, I just presume others do too.

I didn't think I needed to qualify in ref to the Cross or the finished work of Christ. I just presumed that we are here on this site because He is our rock and foundation. And it didn't need saying.

What I was saying ( obviously badly) That I believe what I believe..I am solid on what I believe, BUT, I am not going to be thick headed enough to resist the 'nudging of the Holy Spirit' if He try's to show me something in God Word, which I hold as my belief....but He wishes to show me something more, or slightly different than I first believe.
Is He not The Teacher? (John14)
How can He be the Teacher if we already know it all? ( or 'think' that we know it all)

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

amadeus said:
Many things are very apparent to some while others remain very blind indeed. They keep forgetting Jeremiah's words [if they ever knew them].

"I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Jeremiah writes of a man who walks in his flesh trying to follow God. Following closely to the rules of any church organization, no matter how well written they are, similarly will not work without God's help. Alone we are lost and undone.

gotta agree there. I would have said that even an atheist could take the very worst translation of Scripture and determine the meaning of 7 in about five minutes now, esp with the online tools we have now...if only you hadn't made that "oxymoron" observation lol; now i have no idea what to..."believe." HA!

Helen · Nov 21, 2017

@BreadOfLife Also...my faith is not "shaky"....because I know on whom I believe. My faith is in Him, not in what I believe ...or in what I don't believe.
If I 'abide in Him'...He has promised to lead me all the way home...

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

BreadOfLife said:
Read my last post #507 . . .

read my reply to that post. Or we could break it out to another thread, prolly a good idea?

amadeus · Nov 21, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
imo it takes intensive indoctrination to bring someone to that opinion, i mean one would have to basically be a Cradle Catholic or whatever to even entertain that, yes. (with apologies to BoL. God knows this, and will judge him differently i guess)

I was baptized Catholic at age 6. I recall the ceremony and with it my first recollection of my recognition of God. If I had remained Catholic or were to now return I would wonder what relationship I could have with such stalwarts as these... They do not have a clue as to why such an occurrence is now so very unlikely or even should I say...impossible. I don't like to use that word... impossible.

Jesus' message with regard to the scribes and Pharisees was clear, but when you read his words in order to find support for the position you already hold, of course you will:

"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi." Matt 23:2-7

If they are not found in that category of leaders they may often be found here with followers:

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matt 15:14

The apostle Paul was warning people about this when he wrote these words:

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

If Paul is wrong, don't follow him. If my pastor is wrong, don't follow him. If my church group is wrong, don't follow them. The point is not that we should always walk alone among men, but when and if we do submit ourselves to a leader, one anointed by God, we still are personally liable to God for what we do or do not do, no matter what the leader says.

bbyrd009 · Nov 21, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
Sorry I think I must have written that incorrectly. I do tend to do that! "I" understand what I mean, I just presume others do too.

I didn't think I needed to qualify in ref to the Cross or the finished work of Christ. I just presumed that we are here on this site because He is our rock and foundation. And it didn't need saying.

What I was saying ( obviously badly) That I believe what I believe..I am solid on what I believe, BUT, I am not going to be thick headed enough to resist the 'nudging of the Holy Spirit' if He try's to show me something in God Word, which I hold as my belief....but He wishes to show me something more, or slightly different than I first believe.
Is He not The Teacher? (John14)
How can He be the Teacher if we already know it all? ( or 'think' that we know it all)

finally, lol. i guess maybe we can have a discussion about beliefs not being faith now,
Are Beliefs and Faith the Same?

amadeus · Nov 21, 2017

ScottA said:
If we understand that the church is built of those born again of the spirit of God, who no longer live, but Christ lives in them...then it is only Christ who should speak in church, not His bride. This is the reign of Christ, not the reign of those who died to sin, as some kind of zombie gathering. Unfortunately, there are a lot of zombies leading the church.

Yes, in this day the TV programs which today are so heavily dominated by zombies and blood suckers, bring home clearly the real mindset of probably most of those who walk around us in the flesh. People who doubt the death of Adam and Eve when they ate of the forbidden tree, for the most part or even always do not even realize that they themselves may also be effective zombies in the eyes of God.

If it were only those who are clearly identified to all as unbelievers it would be bad, but too many bear the Christian label and fill the pews and sit on the platforms in the church meetings. God has provided Life through His Son but so many do not even understand that they are dead and therefore do not seek real Life. Someone has lied to them and they have believed it.

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