ABOUT BAPTISM

Jay Ross said:

Oh Dave, your understanding is not like God's understanding at all.

When God took Israel out of Egypt, Israel badly needed redemption and salvation. Moses spent 40 years in the desert with his father in-law to learn from Ruel, which means friend of God, about the things of God. Jethro was a descendant of Abraham's through Keturah, his third wife. Just before Abraham died he sent them away from Isaac towards the east, with one family going down to the Sinai Desert to wait for an Israelite who would come out of Egypt. Jethro passed on to Moses all that he had been taught about the things of God which had been passed onto him by his fathers. Moses was brought into Jethro's house around 505 years after Abraham had died. Jethro live a simple life in the desert in communion with God. He was a priest and a teacher. Moses was his student.

The Ten Commandments were a part of the Salvation Covenant which was embedded into the Kingdom of Priest, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations Covenant with the nation of Israel and within this covenant we are also told about the reason for Israel being scattered to the four points of the compass throughout all of the earth in the second commandment of the ten. Because the Ten Commandments existed before God's covenant with the Nation of Israel, the Ten Commandments is applicable to all the inhabitants of the earth, not just Israel. Jacob certainly knew that there should be no idols within his household and so when he returned to the Land of Canaan to be with his father Isaac, Jacob took all of the idols that were at that time held by the members of his household and buried them all under a tree when he entered into the land of Canaan. Jacob did this because he was aware of the relational commandments that are embedded within the Ten Commandment.

God intends when he gathers the nation of Israel to himself once more to make like new His covenant of a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the nations once more with all that is Israel. This gathering will occur around the time of Armageddon. Some 4,000 plus years after the birth of Isaac.

Shalom

Click to expand...

I agree, Jethro was a Priest to the most high God, and his daughter knew about circumcision before Moses did. and Job and his sons was keeping feast day before the israelites came on the scene, so in retrospect, the nation Israel before they became a nation they was, ... as to say Johnny come lately to the things of God, in certian respects.

PICJAG.

101G said:

I agree, Jethro was a Priest to the most high God, and his daughter knew about circumcision before Moses did. and Job and his sons was keeping feast day before the israelites came on the scene, so in retrospect, the nation Israel before they became a nation they was, ... as to say Jhonny come lately to the things of God, in certian respects.

PICJAG.

Click to expand...

@Jay Ross
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10) (KJV 1900)

Dave L said:

@Jay Ross
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10) (KJV 1900)

Click to expand...

Yes Dave and we all fit this description of being an unrighteous man. If we fail even the smallest least important part of the Law we fail all of it.

But, there is a way to be redeemed.

Jay Ross said:

Yes Dave and we all fit this description of being an unrighteous man. If we fail even the smallest least important part of the Law we fail all of it.

But, there is a way to be redeemed.

Click to expand...

Not by law.
“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21) (KJV 1900)

Dave L said:

Not by law.
“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21) (KJV 1900)

Click to expand...

correct, the Law can only POINT out our sins, it don't save you, but it let you convict yourself. as our brother and apostle said, James 1:25 "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed".

that's the catch, "and continueth therein". everyday we have done something to break these laws. a little white lie here or there. what did our brother and apostle say?
Acts 15:5 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Acts 15:6 "And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts 15:7 "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Acts 15:8 "And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Acts 15:9 "And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (one need to read that again)
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

PICJAG.

Dave L said:

Produce New Covenant scripture saying otherwise.

Click to expand...

This is for the benefit of the readers, since Dave just denies every verse presented.

Full Question
The New Testament mentions three categories of Church leaders: bishops, presbyters, and deacons. So how can the Catholic Church justify its office of "priest"? The New Testament writers seem to understand "bishop" and "presbyter" to be synonymous terms for the same office (Acts 20:17-38).
Answer
The English word "priest" is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as "elder" or "presbyter." The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity.

They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear--except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Mt 21:23, Acts 4:23)--the word may rightly be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter."

Episcopos arises from two words, epi (over) and skopeo (to see), and it means literally "an overseer": We translate it as "bishop." The King James Version renders the office of overseer, episkopen, as "bishopric" (Acts 1:20). The role of the episcopos is not clearly defined in the New Testament, but by the beginning of the second century it had obtained a fixed meaning. There is early evidence of this refinement in ecclesiastical nomenclature in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), who wrote at length of the authority of bishops as distinct from presbyters and deacons
(Epistle to the Magnesians 6:1, 13:1-2;
Epistle to the Trallians 2:1-3;
Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2).

The New Testament tendency to use episcopos and presbuteros interchangeably is similar to the contemporary Protestant use of the term "minister" to denote various offices, both ordained and unordained (senior minister, music minister, youth minister). Similarly, the term diakonos is rendered both as "deacon" and as "minister" in the Bible, yet in Protestant churches the office of deacon is clearly distinguished from and subordinate to the office of minister.

In Acts 20:17-38 the same men are called presbyteroi (v. 17) and episcopoi (v. 28). Presbuteroi is used in a technical sense to identify their office of ordained leadership. Episcopoi is used in a non-technical sense to describe the type of ministry they exercised. This is how the Revised Standard Version renders the verses: "And from Miletus he [Paul] . . . called for the elders [presbuteroi]of the church. And when they came to him, he said to them . . . 'Take heed to yourselves and all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians [episcopoi], to feed the church of the Lord.'"

In other passages it's clear that although men called presbuteroi ruled over individual congregations (parishes), the apostles ordained certain men, giving them authority over multiple congregations (dioceses), each with its own presbyters. These were endowed with the power to ordain additional presbyters as needed to shepherd the flock and carry on the work of the gospel. Titus and Timothy were two of those early episcopoi and clearly were above the office of presbuteros. They had the authority to select, ordain, and govern other presbyters, as is evidenced by Paul's instructions: "This is why I left you in Crete . . . that you might appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Ti 1:5; cf. 1 Tm 5:17-22).

Where in the New Testament are "priests" mentioned? | Catholic Answers

Dave L said:

Not by law.
“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21) (KJV 1900)

Click to expand...

I agree with you Dave, as I was not pointing to the law to redeem anyone. But as Christ fulfilled all of the Law in His coming, then perhaps, this aspect of the law will save us.

101G said:

correct, the Law can only POINT out our sins, it don't save you,

Click to expand...

Actually it doesnt, it was only ever meant for the Jews, which is why when mentioned in the nt it is only spoken to those who where under the law. the Jews.

Joh_16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh_16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

And that is the reason why some run to the law, they are in unbelief.

Jay Ross said:

I agree with you Dave, as I was not pointing to the law to redeem anyone. But as Christ fulfilled all of the Law in His coming, then perhaps, this aspect of the law will save us.

Click to expand...

We are not under the Ten Commandments. You did not need to tell Abraham, or Abel, or Job not to steal or murder. They did not want to, because of the New Birth. They and we are under the Two Great Commandments written in the heart and activated by the Holy Spirit. We do things out of love for God and people, not out of greed or fear of loss, which is what motivated the wicked Jews of old. God had to force them to act like they loved him and others under threat of death.

H. Richard said:

I have given the scriptures in their context. It is the religious, and you, that take what is said in other contexts and try to show the scriptures I have given in context to be wrong. It is the religious, that in order to support their ideas, must make the scriptures argue against each other.

Click to expand...

Doesn't alter the fact that you have ignored every other verse that talks about baptism. You do not do that if you want to build a theology about anything.

epostle said:

This is for the benefit of the readers, since Dave just denies every verse presented.

Full Question
The New Testament mentions three categories of Church leaders: bishops, presbyters, and deacons. So how can the Catholic Church justify its office of "priest"? The New Testament writers seem to understand "bishop" and "presbyter" to be synonymous terms for the same office (Acts 20:17-38).
Answer
The English word "priest" is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as "elder" or "presbyter." The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity.

They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear--except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Mt 21:23, Acts 4:23)--the word may rightly be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter."

Episcopos arises from two words, epi (over) and skopeo (to see), and it means literally "an overseer": We translate it as "bishop." The King James Version renders the office of overseer, episkopen, as "bishopric" (Acts 1:20). The role of the episcopos is not clearly defined in the New Testament, but by the beginning of the second century it had obtained a fixed meaning. There is early evidence of this refinement in ecclesiastical nomenclature in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), who wrote at length of the authority of bishops as distinct from presbyters and deacons
(Epistle to the Magnesians 6:1, 13:1-2;
Epistle to the Trallians 2:1-3;
Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2).

The New Testament tendency to use episcopos and presbuteros interchangeably is similar to the contemporary Protestant use of the term "minister" to denote various offices, both ordained and unordained (senior minister, music minister, youth minister). Similarly, the term diakonos is rendered both as "deacon" and as "minister" in the Bible, yet in Protestant churches the office of deacon is clearly distinguished from and subordinate to the office of minister.

In Acts 20:17-38 the same men are called presbyteroi (v. 17) and episcopoi (v. 28). Presbuteroi is used in a technical sense to identify their office of ordained leadership. Episcopoi is used in a non-technical sense to describe the type of ministry they exercised. This is how the Revised Standard Version renders the verses: "And from Miletus he [Paul] . . . called for the elders [presbuteroi]of the church. And when they came to him, he said to them . . . 'Take heed to yourselves and all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians [episcopoi], to feed the church of the Lord.'"

In other passages it's clear that although men called presbuteroi ruled over individual congregations (parishes), the apostles ordained certain men, giving them authority over multiple congregations (dioceses), each with its own presbyters. These were endowed with the power to ordain additional presbyters as needed to shepherd the flock and carry on the work of the gospel. Titus and Timothy were two of those early episcopoi and clearly were above the office of presbuteros. They had the authority to select, ordain, and govern other presbyters, as is evidenced by Paul's instructions: "This is why I left you in Crete . . . that you might appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Ti 1:5; cf. 1 Tm 5:17-22).

Where in the New Testament are "priests" mentioned? | Catholic Answers

Click to expand...

We still have no "priests" in the NT. Why, because all believers are priests.

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” (1 Peter 2:9) (KJV 1900)

And Paul taught that each believer has a ministry in the body of Christ. Some are elders, teachers, pastors, all of which are also know as bishops [elders], presbyters [elders]. And also deacons and helps. Ephesians 4:11–12

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers [bishops/elders], to feed [pastor] the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28) (KJV 1900)

“Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:” (Philippians 1:1) (KJV 1900)

Dave L said:

We are not under the Ten Commandments. You did not need to tell Abraham, or Abel, or Job not to steal or murder. They did not want to, because of the New Birth. They and we are under the Two Great Commandments written in the heart and activated by the Holy Spirit. We do things out of love for God and people, not out of greed or fear of loss, which is what motivated the wicked Jews of old. God had to force them to act like they loved him and others under threat of death.

Click to expand...

Did not Jesus tell us that the two commandments, love God and love others was the basis of all of the Commandment Law?

Christ came to teach about what was very ancient, i.e. from the time of Adam's creation, but he also came to change the redemption process during His First Advent as was foretold by Daniel but not the purpose of the Salvation Covenant.

Is your gospel the same as Christ's?

Jay Ross said:

Did not Jesus tell us that the two commandments, love God and love others was the basis of all of the Commandment Law?

Christ came to teach about what was very ancient, i.e. from the time of Adam's creation, but he also came to change the redemption process during His First Advent as was foretold by Daniel but not the purpose of the Salvation Covenant.

Is your gospel the same as Christ's?

Click to expand...

If you read closely, the Ten Commandments HUNG from the Two Great Commandments. Christ abolished the Ten along with the unbelievers who needed them. The Two Great Commandments are the backbone of Christian ethics.

Dave L said:

If you read closely, the Ten Commandments HUNG from the Two Great Commandments. Christ abolished the Ten along with the unbelievers who needed them. The Two Great Commandments are the backbone of Christian ethics.

Click to expand...

Dave if you read closely, Christ refreshed/renewed/refurbished the Ten Commandments as He gave no "brand new commandments" as such.

Jay Ross said:

Dave if you read closely, Christ refreshed/renewed/refurbished the Ten Commandments as He gave no new "commandments" as such.

Click to expand...

But Jeremiah says the New Covenant replaced the Old.

Dave L said:

But Jeremiah says the New Covenant replaced the Old.

Click to expand...

Did He now? Or will God make like new again a covenant he had previously entered into with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, a covenant that they quickly rejected and rebelled against in our near future.

Dave it seems to me that your Gospel is all about a brand new covenant which has been written by man.

Jay Ross said:

Did He now? Or will God make like new again a covenant he had previously entered into with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, a covenant that they quickly rejected and rebelled against in our near future.

Dave it seems to me that your Gospel is all about a brand new covenant which has been written by man.

Click to expand...

Read Jeremiah carefully.

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33) (KJV 1900)

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant;

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

Also; “It contained the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. In this ark were the golden urn containing the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” (Hebrews 9:4) (NET)

Dave L said:

Read Jeremiah carefully.

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33) (KJV 1900)

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant;

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

Also; “It contained the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. In this ark were the golden urn containing the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” (Hebrews 9:4) (NET)

Click to expand...

Like I said, a brand new covenant written by man through his own ignorance of the things of God.

Jay Ross said:

Like I said, a brand new covenant written by man through his own ignorance of the things of God.

Click to expand...

You are carelessly rejecting God's word. Do you actually need to be told and threatened with death not to steal, or murder? Yikes if you do.......