Helen
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- Oct 22, 2011
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Why the cross actually saves
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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CoreIssue
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Prejudiced? Is that how you see it. I don't. There are two sides to Paul's story. We don't hear Peter's. I see Peter between a rock and a hard place. He did not separate himself from the Gentiles after Acts 10, but ate with them. But when he brought in Jews that were not free of Mosaic food laws, he did not offend them. And neither did Paul.
1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Do you call Jesus prejudiced?
Matthew 15:
21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
23 But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Historically Peter only worked with Jews. He just never could get comfortable working with Gentiles.
@"ByGrace"
"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15
How can anyone be tempted to do something wrong if he knows it is impossible for him to do the wrong?
Jesus did not yield to the temptation and sin, but he certainly could have...
Why did he pray the same prayer three times in Gethsemene? Was it not because the first two times he had not yet overcome all of the world of his own temptations?
"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39
"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words." Matt 26:44
But he did overcome them, didn't he?
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
He overcame the world and so must we in order to partake of the Tree of Life...
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7
This is the Way we must travel to receive the promise of never dying! Those who do not overcome need not expect Life!
Are you saying that he could not have? What is your take on this verse?Now “ByGrace” is saying the Christ could have sinned.
"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15
How can anyone be tempted to do something wrong if he knows it is impossible for him to do the wrong?
Jesus did not yield to the temptation and sin, but he certainly could have...
Why did he pray the same prayer three times in Gethsemene? Was it not because the first two times he had not yet overcome all of the world of his own temptations?
"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39
"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words." Matt 26:44
But he did overcome them, didn't he?
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
He overcame the world and so must we in order to partake of the Tree of Life...
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7
This is the Way we must travel to receive the promise of never dying! Those who do not overcome need not expect Life!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
You two are agreeing on a false accusation against Grace. Shame on you both.
Ok look at text and context.
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
There is no prerequisite statement of belief. Only a knowledge of that person ( in fact, sense God is omniscient it is of all persons) .
You insert the prerequisite of belief it’s not stated . Man in his fallen condition is not capable of choosing correctly.
- Titus 3:3 - For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
- Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slavesyou want to be once more?
- Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey…? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed… For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
- Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
- 2 Timothy 2:25-26 - God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
- Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.
- 1 Samuel 24:13 - “As the proverb of the ancients says, ‘Out of the wicked comes wickedness.’”
- Matthew 7:18 - “A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.” (c.f. Luke 6:43)
- Matthew 12:34-35 - “How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.”
- Romans 8:7 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
- Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from youth.
- Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
Bill
No what is being discussed is that grace is grace. Meaning it’s free no prerequisite.
No knowledge of anything special beforehand. That’s it.
Blessings
Bill
If the Christ could have sinned, God could have sinned, seeing the Christ is God. If God can sin, He is no better than you or I.
I'm not saying it, the bible is saying it. 1 Corinthians 2:14 for starters.
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Here's the thing...we, the Reformed believers defend God and His sovereignty and you and your side defend man and his free will, his right to choose. Huge difference where each side is coming from.
@Phoneman777 posted this...
Not one of your side of the debate came to defend the Christ against this heresy. Not one!! Yet, when we avow man does not possess free will, you and your side attack like a pack of hyenas. Why? Free will is your god.
Your side, those who hold to free will, Arianism, Modalism, Molinism, JW, SDA, Mormonism, have sprung up from your ranks.
Now, let's discuss the cross, okay?
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In Leviticus 16 we can read Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.[Leviticus 16:21-22] And there is also In those days and at that time,’ declares the LORD, ‘search will be made for the iniquity of Israel, but there will be none; and for the sins of Judah, but they will not be found; for I will pardon those whom I leave as a remnant.’[Jeremiah 50:20] This is the doctrine of expiation, the removal of one's guilt from them. We can also read this The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"[John 1:29] When ppl see the words 'world', 'whole world', 'all', they think of it including everybody whoever lived. Not so. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.[1 John 5:19] 'Whole world' in this verse does not mean everybody whoever lived, but the lost in the world. The believers no longer lie in the power of the evil one. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.[Romans 1:8] Another place where 'whole world' is used, but does not mean everybody whoever lived. Many have died, are dying now, and will die later, who never heard the gospel. Not everybody alive at that time had heard this gospel, either.
Alliance for the unreached, in an April 2018 article, stated that 3.2 billion ppl have not heard the gospel. On another Christian site, a member there, who is not a Calvinist at all, and I truly admire, stated that 3,000 languages today still do not have one bible verse in their native language. 3,000!! He spent ~ 35 years as a missionary in Japan, and helped to translate the bible into their native language and also served as a pastor there. So many will never have the gospel presented to them before they leave this earth.
Now, if the Christ expiated everybody without exception's guilt, then everybody whoever lived no longer stands before the Father guilty. They stand before Him innocent. On the day of judgment, there is no one to punish, seeing they all stand before Him innocent. Only a most cruel God would punish the innocent.
Alliance for the unreached, in an April 2018 article, stated that 3.2 billion ppl have not heard the gospel. On another Christian site, a member there, who is not a Calvinist at all, and I truly admire, stated that 3,000 languages today still do not have one bible verse in their native language. 3,000!! He spent ~ 35 years as a missionary in Japan, and helped to translate the bible into their native language and also served as a pastor there. So many will never have the gospel presented to them before they leave this earth.
Now, if the Christ expiated everybody without exception's guilt, then everybody whoever lived no longer stands before the Father guilty. They stand before Him innocent. On the day of judgment, there is no one to punish, seeing they all stand before Him innocent. Only a most cruel God would punish the innocent.
You are seeing the cross as the complete focus and crux of salvation. It is not. In the OT the sacrifice was but the first step in a process. The sins of the repentant sinner were transferred through the blood into the tabernacle and sprinkled before the veil. It wasn't until the day of atonement that Israel was completely free from all condemnation...at least for that year. For us as Christians, the cross was represented by the Passover lamb but the blood of the lamb was transferred into the temple. Christ has passed into the heavenly sanctuary to minister as our High Priest there. Our transgressions and sins are still recorded in the books of heaven, and until the antitypical day of atonement is completed at Christ's exit from the temple and return to earth, then we cannot claim our complete redemption. You are preaching only half the gospel. The justification part. We are yet unsanctified and unprepared for the company of angels and God, our characters are not yet perfected and sins we have not fully repented of are still recorded in the books and are not yet cleansed from there.
The context is both verses 29 and 30, and verse 30 says that those whom He called He justified. But Scripture says that we are saved (justified) by grace through faith. So faith is a prerequisite for justification. But that is not where that verse ends, It also says that those whom He justified, He also glorified. But what is critical for this discussion is the reason why God predestines: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. That verse does NOT say, predestined to be justified.
So now we need to see the connection between glorification and being conformed to the image of His Son. Glorification is the perfection and glorification and immortality of the body at the Resurrection/Rapture. But the soul and spirit are also perfected at the same time, so that in effect the child of God becomes an exact replica of Christ -- conformed to the image of His Son (1 John 3:1-3).
Man is his fallen condition is (a) a sinner, (b) separated from God , and (c) spiritually dead. At the same time -- and this is critical -- the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16, and all of Romans 10). But the Gospel is not preached in isolation from the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Spirit convicts and convinces sinners to repent and be converted (Acts 2:36-38). That is the power of the Word of God (the Gospel) working in concert with the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome the spiritual deadness of sinners and draw them to Christ. This is all revealed in the Bible.
What you are averring is ppl are predestined to sanctification but not justification. You can not be predestined to sanctification and not the rest, such as election, justification, and also glorification.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
What is the main thing that sprang from the blood of Jesus into our New Covenant, that the Old Covenant couldn't do?
Sanctification is just as much in election as the other parts are. You can not say that God has elected us to sanctification and divorce it from foreknowledge, predestination, effectual calling, justification, sanctification and glorification. All of these go en masse to this golden chain of redemption. They all link together like links in a chain.
Blotted out our sins and there is no more remembrance of them.
Satisfied God's wrath.
Reconciled us back to God.
That is why the cross needs to be properly understood.
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