Explaining the Trinity

brakelite said:

I have only briefly glanced through this thread, but from that brief perusal of the various posts have ascertained that the seeming majority of posters still believe that from the very brief and minimal amount of information offered in scripture, they can formularise the nature of the immeasurable Godhead and demand everyone else to acquiesce to their human devising.
The Bible does not offer an explanation of how the 3 expressions of deity relate to one another, nor of how they consist together. But that doesn't seem to stop us stupid backward species of rebellious upstarts from attempting to decipher the indecipherable.
When will we learn that what God wants us to learn through scripture is what He is like, an understanding of His character ... not what He is.

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Kermos said:

Hello @justbyfaith,

I read your entire post including every single one of your citations.

For the moment, I'm going to narrow focus on a single citation of yours which is 2 Corinthians 3:17 (in a couple of paragraphs, returning to include your other citations again), but I am going to expand further into this passage to obtain appropriate context:

15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
(2 Corinthians 3:15-17)

The Apostle Paul wrote "whenever Moses is read" in 2 Corinthians 3:15, and that has a direct impact upon 2 Corinthians 3:17 where Paul wrote "the Lord is the Spirit" in that Lord Christ is the Spirit of the Law; in other words, Lord Jesus is the substance and the Law of Moses is the shadow. Do not be deceived, this passage is not saying that Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit as one person.

The balance of your citations are proof texts against the Father being the Son or the Son being this Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit being the Father; therefore, your interpretation is dangerously flawed.

Your error is that you try to squeeze the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit into one spirit (or maybe it's one person) instead of One God.

One of the egregious symptoms of your error is that you try to manipulate the plural pronoun into the singular pronoun for the very word of Lord Jesus Christ recorded by the Apostle John (John 14:16-19).

The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father; however the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these three, are One God. This it is proved out in this post and these three spiritually true and scripturally valid posts:

"One God Three Persons Post (in this thread)"

"The 'I' in John 14:18 Refers to Lord Jesus Post (in this thread)"

"Mary, Pregnant with Lord Jesus, greets Elizabeth, Pregnant with Holy Spirit filled John the Baptist who leaped, Post (in this thread)"

Immersed in the One True God that is three distinct personifications of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit,
Kermos

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justbyfaith said:

1 Corinthians 11:19 says, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

There is a heresy called Tritheism that defends itself by calling the opposing emphasis on the Oneness of God heresy; even though the one who is emphasizing that Oneness is not denying that God is distinctly three Persons (and yet One).

In Acts 24:14 Paul the apostle said, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets.

The true Trinity is held to be heretical by those who think that they believe in the Trinity and yet in all reality they believe in Tritheism. It should be clear from the holy scriptures that there is one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.

Mark 12:29, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Notice here that the Lord is God. And also, we have the following statement in Matthew 11:25:

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes.

Again, scripture teaches that there is one Lord...

Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now here there is one God, and a Lord separate from Him, if the Lord isn't God (the Father). However, we have already seen that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29) and that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. This one Lord is the God who created us, Jesus Christ; and I contend here faithfully that He is the Father.

Isaiah 9:6-7, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Jesus is the Lord:

1 Corinthians 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

There is one Lord:

Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

That Lord is the Father:

Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

If anyone does not have the Holy Ghost, they do not belong to Christ:

Romans 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost:

1 Corinthians 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The Father is the Lord:

Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

There is one Lord:

Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

So I think that I have made it clear that there is a Oneness between the Father and the Son:

John 10:30, I and my Father are one.

It should be clear that both Jesus and the Father are the one Lord of scripture.

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justbyfaith said:

Part II:

There is one God according to scripture.

Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD:

James 2:19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

That one God is, the Father:

James 3:9, Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Romans 15:6, That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him: and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Now in Malachi 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal every man treacherously against his brother, by profaning the covenants of our fathers?

Jesus is the everlasting Father:

Isaiah 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace.

He is specifically defined as the Son pertaining to the flesh.

Hebrews 1:8, But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

Romans 1:3, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Isaiah 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and is thus a distinct Person from the Father, since He is a Man, in the flesh.

The Father inhabiteth eternity:

Isaiah 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is holy; I dwell in a high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

He descended into time and then ascended back up into eternity:

Ephesians 4:10, He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

Therefore there are two Persons...who are also the same Person, though the 2nd Person has experiential knowledge of being human and also is human...dwelling in eternity.

God the Father descended to become a Man and later ascended as that Man to sit upon the throne at the Father's right hand.

He also did not vacate eternity when He descended; for it is the nature of eternity that if anyone dwells there, they are there eternally.

So God did the impossible in the descending, see Luke 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

After having lived one eternal moment, He descended into time and became flesh and dwelt among us:

Ephesians 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

From the Son's perspective it has already happened. From the Father's (experiential) perspective it has yet to happen.

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justbyfaith said:

Now, the Holy Ghost.

There is one Spirit:

Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

And He is the Father:

John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He is the Holy Ghost:

John 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified).

And He is the Father:

John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He (the Father, even the Holy Ghost) is the Spirit of Jesus:

John 14:7-11, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest not thou that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The human Jesus released His Spirit back to the Father (that One who inhabiteth eternity):

Luke 23:46, And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Again, there is one Spirit:

Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

That Spirit is Jesus:

Colossians 1:27, To whom God would make make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 John 5:12, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Ephesians 3:17, That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith: that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

A person cannot have the Son and therefore have life unless He is a Spirit come to dwell in them; and yet it is clear from scripture that He is come in the flesh:

(the short version), 2 John 1:7, For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Therefore Jesus is both come in the flesh (as the Son) and also the Son is a Spirit (1 John 5:12, above) that comes to dwell within us. This Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Ghost; even Jesus Christ, the 3rd Person of the Trinity.

And Jesus is also a human being, come in the flesh, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

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justbyfaith said:

In the Old Testament God reveals Himself as YHWH.

And He also is the great "I will be who I will be".

He reveals Himself in different capacities to Israel under the name YHWH with an adjective placed after His name.

Examples of this are YHWH-Tsidkenuh, YHWH-shalom, YHWH-rapha, and YHWH-jireh.

(The LORD our righteous banner, the LORD our peace, the LORD our healer, the LORD our provider).

When Jesus came into the world, He was given the name Jesus (YHWH our salvation).

Jesus Christ has always been our salvation, even before the incarnation.

Thus Jesus Christ is come in the flesh; because before the incarnation He was the Father, and the Father's name is Jesus Christ as He is now revealed to us.

Matthew 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There is one name to be baptized under, and that is the name of Jesus Christ:

Acts 4:10,12, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand before you whole. This is the stone that was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

For baptism does have the power to save:

1 Peter 3:20-21, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

While baptism does not put away fleshly filth, it does wash away sins:

Acts 22:16, And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Therefore baptism in Jesus' Name is the only way to salvation; after you know who the Lord is, of course: baptism in titles won't cut it.

Acts 2:39, For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Therefore if you are called, you will fulfill the condition of the promise (the promise is the Holy Ghost; and the condition is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins).

Acts 2:8, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Finally, if you are not called, then you were never predestinated, you will not be justified, and you will not be glorified (if you are predestinated and have not been baptized, then you will be baptized with Acts 2:38 salvation at some point in the future):

Romans 8:30, Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I would encourage you with the following words:

Matthew 7:7-8, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I would also point out the following:

Matthew 7:13-14, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Deuteronomy 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Jeremiah 29:13, And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

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Kermos said:

Hello @101G,

Your primary error is that you try to squeeze the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit into one person (or maybe one spirit) instead of One God.

One of the egregious symptoms of your error is that you try to manipulate the plural pronoun into the singular pronoun in various passages of the Bible, including the very words of Lord Jesus Christ as recorded by the Apostle John (John 14:16-19, see also "Lord Jesus Describing Three Distinct Persons That Are One True God Post (in this thread)".

A second error symptom lies in your deconstructionism applied against the scriptures resulting in your denial of the God that made you, this One True God revealed in the Word of God as three persons. Your challenge/question about the person referred to in John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 is an example of your deconstruction of scripture in that you seek not the Author's intent but you seek your intent; in other words, you are reading into scripture. By the way, I do not intend to answer your question according to your rules, so, with that written, here is the answer to your question: John 1:3 refers to the same God as refered to in Isaiah 44:24 with respect to "created all things".

Yet another error symptom of yours is that you come up with four persons instead of three persons according to how I've collated your posts on the matter:

- 1 for the Father
- 1 for the Son
- 1 for the Spirit
- 1 for God

That is 1 + 1 + 1 +1 = 4 which is in error because the One True God is the three persons of the Father and the Son and the Spirit. The phraseology applied with the word "God" in scripture proves your 4 person interpretation to be false.

Another error condition of yours lies in your contradiction of the following statement: the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. The Truth is that he Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God, and this it is proved out by Lord Jesus Christ in the "One God Three Persons Post (in this thread)".

The illogically unscriptural fallacy of your conclusion for your denial against 1 + 1 = 2 persons explanation is clearly evident since Jesus, in pregnant Mary, was separately identified in scripture as present at the same time that the Holy Spirit filled John the Baptist, in pregnant Elizabeth, was also identified in scripture as present at the same time ("Mary, Pregnant with Lord Jesus, greets Elizabeth, Pregnant with Holy Spirit filled John the Baptist who leaped, Post (in this thread)"). That is 1 + 1 = 2 persons out of the 3 persons of 1 God expressed in scripture, so according to your denial that places you in the place that you do not believe scripture.

Since justbyfaith brought up some points worth addressing, I am including the "Refutation that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are one person (or maybe it's one spirit or maybe it's both that justbyfaith and 101G attempt to eisegete from scripture) Post (in this thread)".

Lord Jesus said "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me" (John 8:45), and He also spoke of three distinct persons being One God in John 14:16-19.

Immersed in the One True God that is three distinct personifications of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit,
Kermos

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CoreIssue said:

I answered you on the question before.

Both are referring to the second person of the Trinity.

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"ByGrace" said:

AMEN B...Very well said.

Knowing Him is where it is at.
Knowing His heart and hearing His heartbeat.

6 " Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit, for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life."

Much easier to dissect and talk 'about' the godhead than to take time for Him to show us His full heart.

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CoreIssue said:

I answered you on the question before.

Both are referring to the second person of the Trinity.

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CoreIssue said:

I am not wrong

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CoreIssue said:

It is the Trinity of the Bible

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CoreIssue said:

It is the Trinity of the Bible

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SovereignGrace said:

I take it the anti-Bible ppl are still denying the Trinity?

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justbyfaith said:

God is one Person. He is Tri-une, the latter part of that meaning one.

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