Logical and Dialectical Reasoning in Scripture

bbyrd009 · Jun 2, 2019

amadeus said:
At the start of our walk with God, and perhaps throughout much of it in our flesh, our vision is limited as through a glass darkly but that is still a vision, is it not? But without even that vision?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

great point. Nehushtan is a vital stage i guess. hhhhhhhh gotta run later

Berserk · Jun 2, 2019

The whole premise of the OP's argument is too simplistic and displays ignorance of the history of "the East," especially of ancient Palestine. The Hebrew culture of ancient OT Israel was radically changed Alexander's conquest in the 4th century BC, after which Palenstine became gradually but increasingly Hellenized. Soon Greek systems of thought reshaped Jewish thought, so that Jesus and His disciples even spoke Greek as well as Aramaic. Greek thinkers like Homer and Plato were now studied in Jerusalem cchools called gymnasia. Additionally, Persian influence became more and more influential after the Babylonian exile and return in the 6th century BC. All these influences can be detected in the Judeo-Christian thought of the New Testament era. So modern biblical scholarship seeks to identify the pagan influence on the logic of Jesus and the New Testament writers to understand the text. For exampie, the closest cultural parallels to the practice of Holy Communion come from pagan mystery meals during which it was believed that participants mystically bonded with the "dying and rising god.' No talk of ancient logic an dialectic is competent that does not include such cultural awareness in its reflection. On that, modern biblical scholarship is agreed.
Have you ever asked yourself why the 3 magai are including in the Christmas story, given their insights from eastern astrology that led them to follow whatever the "star of Bethlehem" actually was? Isn't astrology a forbidden occult practice? And have you ever asked ;yourself why Jesus uses spittle, clay, mixed with spittle, and oil anointings as gimmicks in His healing technique? These "aids to faith" are borrowed from the practice of eastern pagan magicians, so that Jesus can be said to have borrowed from the occult of His day! Thus, Jewish skeptics of His day accused Him of being a magician and even argued that His practice of magic was a reason for His crucifixion. Of course, as an Evangelical, I would not call Jesus a magician. But such influences raise the question of where the line falls between heresy and acceptable borrowing from mystical practices of the prevailing culture.

bbyrd009 · Jun 2, 2019

amadeus said:
"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

People who say they are Christian and that they are saved are often stuck because they have listened to men too much instead of to God. A Doctor of Theology may sound good and his knowledge learned in school may not hurt but does it mean he cannot be wrong or questioned, does it?

Hey I am not saying that I am always right and they are always wrong, but does that degree from some Bible school, or the lack thereof, make that much difference in how close or how far away a person walks [or Not] with God?

the heir is under servants until he inherits, even though he be the master of all

amadeus said:
No page for me and no planned or expected preaching

i would urge you strongly to reconsider. You are likely even denying a gift imo

amadeus said:
No page for me and no planned or expected preaching:
I was preaching/teaching most Sundays for several years until about 7 months ago. Anyone was allowed to teach there under the old pastor... no prior consent required. When they took out my old pastor I stood with the old fellow all the way out the door. Some places would doubtless welcome me so long as I kept my mouth shut, but how many would allow me to speak?

i'd suggest a wider audience, a blog maybe?

bbyrd009 · Jun 2, 2019

amadeus said:
I tell you true that I would rather sit under that frail, forgetful old man [my ousted pastor], who loved God, than under any of the replacements who got what they wanted rather than what was needed according to God...at least as I have seen it. Sorry... but there would be no recordings and unless God opens a door, there are not likely to be any... but I won't second guess God. I meet people here and there for coffee or elsewhere and if I talk much at all it is usually about God. Perhaps a door will be opened … I leave that also in God's hands.

youre in an open door right now i guess

i'm sure his older stuff is more valuable anyway, might be worth the effort

amadeus · Jun 2, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
the heir is under servants until he inherits, even though he be the master of all
i would urge you strongly to reconsider. You are likely even denying a gift imo

i'd suggest a wider audience, a blog maybe?

Now this last of yours is something to consider. I had tried a blog for a while in connection with one forum a number of years ago, but the forum itself has diminished to nothing. My only real thoughts lately had been on live audiences as in physical church groups. I used to like visiting the 'small hole in the wall' churches years ago, as usually there were very few in attendance and sometimes the preacher/teacher/pastor running the place would allow a little freedom of speech. I cannot speak for big cities as I haven't lived in one in the past 30 some years but in the smaller town where I am now those 'hole in the wall' churches are far and few between any more.

But... maybe I should look into Internet possibilities. Any more specific suggestions as to where to look?

I don't deny the gift, but I presumed that where I was attending the doors would open there. I was wrong. It was certainly not the first time.

amadeus · Jun 2, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
youre in an open door right now i guess

You may be right on this and I have thought of this. This is not my home town so I don't know a lot a people, but there are a lot of people to meet. I had already planned to quit that church when my pastor died. His wife died 7 years ago and I really did not expect him to live this long nor did I expect them to actually kick him out as they did. 7 months now without a "church home" but in the sense that most people have a church home I cannot... not like that any more. I stayed where I did that last time because I believed it was God's will for me to support that pastor. Nearly 12 years it was, but there are no more pastors like him, at least none I have come across.

As you say the door is open, but...? Not buts about it, huh?

Heart2Soul · Jun 2, 2019

amadeus said:
You may be right on this and I have thought of this. This is not my home town so I don't know a lot a people, but there are a lot of people to meet. I had already planned to quit that church when my pastor died. His wife died 7 years ago and I really did not expect him to live this long nor did I expect them to actually kick him out as they did. 7 months now without a "church home" but in the sense that most people have a church home I cannot... not like that any more. I stayed where I did that last time because I believed it was God's will for me to support that pastor. Nearly 12 years it was, but there are no more pastors like him, at least none I have come across.

As you say the door is open, but...? Not buts about it, huh?

Ever consider that God has kept you at this church to fill the pastors shoes when he dies?

amadeus · Jun 2, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
Ever consider that God has kept you at this church to fill the pastors shoes when he dies?

A preacher or a teacher perhaps, but not a pastor... at least not like any pastor I have ever known. All of the ones I've known have been the boss, and a pastor should never in that sense be a boss. I could be a pastor according to the scripture if God were to point me that way, but not like a boss man. A real pastor really must be a minister which is a servant and he must really care for the sheep. My old pastor always loved his sheep, but after more than 30 years in this place see what they have done to him. Some have loved him, but the powers that be have brushed them aside to get their own way.

A tired old widower he is with no natural children and now removed from his flock, but NOT by God. Left alone now in this town but for my wife and I and one other family. If it were not for the many who love him in hundreds other places including the home of one family in Israel...?

His situation reminds me of the following verse:

"But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house" Mark 6:4

My old pastor will be 94 next month, but he no longer has anything here as a pastor. They took that away from him and since I left when he did 7 months ago, the present powers that be would not even want me in attendance unless I were willing to move in their direction. For me that would be purposely walking toward the very devil. It would be effectively choosing mammon instead of God and I could not do that. There are now three people who would block me if I were to try to return, but unless God really directed that way I will not. I will wait now carefully on the Lord. I will also see what our friend @bbyrd009 has to say.

"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Heart2Soul · Jun 2, 2019

amadeus said:
A preacher or a teacher perhaps, but not a pastor... at least not like any pastor I have ever known. All of the ones I've known have been the boss, and a pastor should never in that sense be a boss. I could be a pastor according to the scripture if God were to point me that way, but not like a boss man. A real pastor really must be a minister which is a servant and he must really care for the sheep. My old pastor always loved his sheep, but after more than 30 years in this place see what they have done to him. Some have loved him, but the powers that be have brushed them aside to get their own way.

A tired old widower he is with no natural children and now removed from his flock, but NOT by God. Left alone now in this town but for my wife and I and one other family. If it were not for the many who love him in hundreds other places including the home of one family in Israel...?

His situation reminds me of the following verse:

"But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house" Mark 6:4

My old pastor will be 94 next month, but he no longer has anything here as a pastor. They took that away from him and since I left when he did 7 months ago, the present powers that be would not even want me in attendance unless I were willing to move in their direction. For me that would be purposely walking toward the very devil. It would be effectively choosing mammon instead of God and I could not do that. There are now three people who would block me if I were to try to return, but unless God really directed that way I will not. I will wait now carefully on the Lord. I will also see what our friend @bbyrd009 has to say.

"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

God never intended for a pastor to be the boss....they are to tend to the sheep, nurture them as they grow, raise up disciples who are equipped with the knowledge of His Word.
You are that kind of pastor.
I didn't know there was a difference between preachers and pastors.

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

amadeus said:
A preacher or a teacher perhaps, but not a pastor... at least not like any pastor I have ever known.

ezackly

you have a unique way of illustrating stuff to ppl imo

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

Berserk said:
The whole premise of the OP's argument is too simplistic and displays ignorance of the history of "the East," especially of ancient Palestine. The Hebrew culture of ancient OT Israel was radically changed Alexander's conquest in the 4th century BC, after which Palenstine became gradually but increasingly Hellenized. Soon Greek systems of thought reshaped Jewish thought, so that Jesus and His disciples even spoke Greek as well as Aramaic. Greek thinkers like Homer and Plato were now studied in Jerusalem cchools called gymnasia. Additionally, Persian influence became more and more influential after the Babylonian exile and return in the 6th century BC. All these influences can be detected in the Judeo-Christian thought of the New Testament era.

Ok, first if you would characterize the argument ty as I'm not quite sure what it is to your mind, and imo what you have said here so far just reinforces the likelihood of the Naive Dialectic--or rather an intertwined hybrid--being a possibility?

You don't see maybe a great way to hide wisdom from the wise in what you've just said there?

Berserk said:
So modern biblical scholarship seeks to identify the pagan influence on the logic of Jesus and the New Testament writers to understand the text. For exampie, the closest cultural parallels to the practice of Holy Communion come from pagan mystery meals during which it was believed that participants mystically bonded with the "dying and rising god.' No talk of ancient logic an dialectic is competent that does not include such cultural awareness in its reflection. On that, modern biblical scholarship is agreed.

My response here is that Communion is a great example perhaps, where the Pagan one is virtually identical to our this do in remembrance of me Ritual as contrasted with a more...well, literal, to my mind, what would be the word, action-based, view of Communion wherein "eating and drinking" take on a more...practical symbolism, maybe, eating becomes "taking in" on a psychological level, something that has been or is being assimilated?

And imo Reading Christ's Unless you eat My Body and drink My Blood even possibly illustrate the dichotomy, wherein no um Communists actually took a bite of Jesus that day, or drank any blood?

Berserk said:
On that, modern biblical scholarship is agreed.

this becomes another plank for hide wisdom from the wise guys though i think?

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

Berserk said:
Have you ever asked yourself why the 3 magai are including in the Christmas story, given their insights from eastern astrology that led them to follow whatever the "star of Bethlehem" actually was? Isn't astrology a forbidden occult practice? And have you ever asked ;yourself why Jesus uses spittle, clay, mixed with spittle, and oil anointings as gimmicks in His healing technique? These "aids to faith" are borrowed from the practice of eastern pagan magicians, so that Jesus can be said to have borrowed from the occult of His day! Thus, Jewish skeptics of His day accused Him of being a magician and even argued that His practice of magic was a reason for His crucifixion. Of course, as an Evangelical, I would not call Jesus a magician. But such influences raise the question of where the line falls between heresy and acceptable borrowing from mystical practices of the prevailing culture.

Well, Jesus had already appropriated "savior" and even "Son of God" from the Caesar, and Paul also borrowed heavily, so while i can't disagree with your perspective there, i suggest that you must descend into Apologetics to explain the conundrum whereas in this perspective it becomes a brilliant way to adopt the popular mythos while at the same time reveal how it may have been deficient, if you will, and the way one reads, depending upon whether one is seeking facts or truth, would dictate which Dialectic they are reading from maybe.

So iow a Naive reader will see that no one actually literally did what Jesus was saying to do, but a Logical thinker, who espouses "literal," is forced to apologize there, for engaging in the ezact Pagan practice that is apparently being forwarded, for instance. But i do have several other more direct examples of this possibility, already noted, provide for your family, don't work for food, etc.

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

amadeus said:
Now this last of yours is something to consider. I had tried a blog for a while in connection with one forum a number of years ago, but the forum itself has diminished to nothing.

Might be a fine venue, search would direct your flock to you anyway. This place was pretty slow my first couple months, although imo the software change is likely responsible for most of that

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

amadeus said:
My only real thoughts lately had been on live audiences as in physical church groups. I used to like visiting the 'small hole in the wall' churches years ago, as usually there were very few in attendance and sometimes the preacher/teacher/pastor running the place would allow a little freedom of speech. I cannot speak for big cities as I haven't lived in one in the past 30 some years but in the smaller town where I am now those 'hole in the wall' churches are far and few between any more.

Sounds Mennonite, and i have no doubt that you would be being called to speak after about a week in one..."city" Mennonite I mean, great one in Glenwood Springs, CO! Come on by!

amadeus said:
But... maybe I should look into Internet possibilities. Any more specific suggestions as to where to look?

I'm...not in love with the software here, but it is comprehensive, and you can eventually find the right buttons lol. But again If You Build It They will Come via search anyway

amadeus said:
I don't deny the gift, but I presumed that where I was attending the doors would open there. I was wrong. It was certainly not the first time.

Ya, tbh as good an actual "pastor" you would be imo, your preaching would not comport well with most believers, unless you were to basically crawl and be prepared for a long slog. However here you have a virtually limitless audience, that will even outlive you.

We are still in our toddler pants basically on the net, but i see a day when ones life will be memorialized by their online presence. Well or demonized i guess too

amadeus said:
You may be right on this and I have thought of this.

amadeus said:
You may be right on this and I have thought of this. This is not my home town so I don't know a lot a people, but there are a lot of people to meet. I had already planned to quit that church when my pastor died. His wife died 7 years ago and I really did not expect him to live this long nor did I expect them to actually kick him out as they did. 7 months now without a "church home" but in the sense that most people have a church home I cannot... not like that any more. I stayed where I did that last time because I believed it was God's will for me to support that pastor. Nearly 12 years it was, but there are no more pastors like him, at least none I have come across.

As you say the door is open, but...? Not buts about it, huh?

ah i meant online, here, sorry!

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

amadeus said:
A preacher or a teacher perhaps, but not a pastor... at least not like any pastor I have ever known. All of the ones I've known have been the boss, and a pastor should never in that sense be a boss. I could be a pastor according to the scripture if God were to point me that way, but not like a boss man. A real pastor really must be a minister which is a servant and he must really care for the sheep. My old pastor always loved his sheep, but after more than 30 years in this place see what they have done to him. Some have loved him, but the powers that be have brushed them aside to get their own way.

A tired old widower he is with no natural children and now removed from his flock, but NOT by God. Left alone now in this town but for my wife and I and one other family. If it were not for the many who love him in hundreds other places including the home of one family in Israel...?

His situation reminds me of the following verse:

"But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house" Mark 6:4

My old pastor will be 94 next month, but he no longer has anything here as a pastor. They took that away from him and since I left when he did 7 months ago, the present powers that be would not even want me in attendance unless I were willing to move in their direction. For me that would be purposely walking toward the very devil. It would be effectively choosing mammon instead of God and I could not do that. There are now three people who would block me if I were to try to return, but unless God really directed that way I will not. I will wait now carefully on the Lord. I will also see what our friend @bbyrd009 has to say.

"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Sounds like a closed door to me tbh

amadeus · Jun 3, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
God never intended for a pastor to be the boss....they are to tend to the sheep, nurture them as they grow, raise up disciples who are equipped with the knowledge of His Word.
You are that kind of pastor.
I didn't know there was a difference between preachers and pastors.

Well I wouldn't want to define the difference, but I do see such a difference. As you said, a pastor is a tender or caretaker or nurturer. Not every minister [servant] is a pastor nor is every pastor a preacher and although all five according to Eph 4:11 are ministers, not all ministers are always among the five.

A pastor really does need, I believe, to be a teacher, but not every teacher needs to be a pastor. Should the people define the pastor or should he be defined by the Word of God? Of course some people will not allow themselves to be defined or rebuilt by the Word of God. This is one reason, I believe, why people refuse to believe that the scriptures without the Holy Spirit may be Nehushtan. Still most Bible readers would not know what that means. I guess I knew about Nehushtan before but not until I met @bbyrd009 did begin to really understand how important that was...

amadeus · Jun 3, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
My response here is that Communion is a great example perhaps, where the Pagan one is virtually identical to our this do in remembrance of me Ritual as contrasted with a more...well, literal, to my mind, what would be the word, action-based, view of Communion wherein "eating and drinking" take on a more...practical symbolism, maybe, eating becomes "taking in" on a psychological level, something that has been or is being assimilated?

And imo Reading Christ's Unless you eat My Body and drink My Blood even possibly illustrate the dichotomy, wherein no um Communists actually took a bite of Jesus that day, or drank any blood?

this becomes another plank for hide wisdom from the wise guys though i think?

You are certainly on the right track again here my friend. Communion as practiced in churches where a bit or bread or cracker is consumed along with wine or grape juice may be OK, but when the partaker fails to really partake of the Word and the Holy Spirit, that natural communion stuff is a wasted effort... at least as I see it.

amadeus · Jun 3, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
Might be a fine venue, search would direct your flock to you anyway. This place was pretty slow my first couple months, although imo the software change is likely responsible for most of that

I hear you. I will be looking around and asking God to help me in this. Thanks for your input.

bbyrd009 · Jun 3, 2019

amadeus said:
Nehushtan

not to diminish your frame there, but to me Nehushtan signifies the desire for a Savior that we can look up and see with Two Eyes that will alleviate our suffering from our self-imposed snakes, or iow the desire to homo up (which i could demo from the text in the Snake on a Pole incident) and bow and scrape to an idol and call that worship.

"Group" complaining and prayers of petition will be in evidence, "we want ____ and we're all in agreement ('just like the Bible says,')" (Santa Claus may as well be hovering on the verge) there'll be lots of commending each other to ourselves mixed in with complaining, which i can demo either from here onsite or in the text also

amadeus · Jun 3, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
Sounds like a closed door to me tbh

Oh yeah, it's closed and locked fast. This is hard me for as I really loved those people.

Logical and Dialectical Reasoning in Scripture

Groper

Well-Known Member

Groper

Groper

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Spiritual Warrior

Well-Known Member

Spiritual Warrior

Groper

Groper

Groper

Groper

Groper

Groper

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Groper

Well-Known Member

Similar threads