Please explain this.

GodsGrace · Jun 29, 2019

justbyfaith said:
You say it...

Hi JBF,
Go back and read all my posts and tell me one where I said we are saved by works. I've NEVER said that and never will because it's not true.
Ephesians 2:8-9

I believe that the Bible teaches us that if anyone is seeking to be justified by any kind of works, that they are of the law and will be required to keep the law perfectly from conception into eternity if they are going to enter in that way, Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48.

Could you please explain to me what justification is?
Also, who ever said the Law could be kept perfectly?
The Israelites couldn't do it...why would WE be able to do this?
Isn't this the whole reason for the New Covenant?

Then you disagree with scripture....specifically Isaiah 64:6.

This would be the filthy rags statement in the O.T.
Do you like Isaiah 64:5?
How do you reconcile the two?
Are our works as filthy rags...or does God welcome those that do good works, and cheerfully, and who acts as God would want them to.

As you keep reading, you'll find that the writer is lamenting because they are NOT the persons mentioned in 64:5....instead they are full of sin and impure...
when they put on their robes of righteousness they are as filthy rags because they DO NOT seek God's ways as those in verse 5.

The persons in verse 6 are swept away by their sins and in verse 7...no one calls upon the name of the Lord for mercy. THEREFORE, God has turned away from those in verse 6, which is the verse you posted.

Read all the chapter,,,and not just one verse.
The verse you posted, and which those that believe as you do also post...works against you, NOT FOR YOU.

Of course.

We are NOT saved for time and eternity...there is a condition.
The condition is that we must remain IN CHRIST.
HE is the Life.
And IN HIM we must remain.
John 11:25-26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Again,,,,present tense.

VictoryinJesus · Jun 29, 2019

H. Richard said:
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

Okay, then how do you explain this?
He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

It seems that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Neither of those last two statements are in the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

What James wrote, as shown above, are direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

The religious who advocate works can argue this until they are blue in the face but it does not change the FACTS as shown in Genesis.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

However, it was compatible with the law of Moses. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on FAITH in Christ’s work on the cross but only on works of the law and is not for this age of God’s grace. The very fact that it was addressed to Jews (James 1:1) is more proof that it was only for the Jews who were under the law.

It remains to be seen that the religious will try to destroy what I have written by attacking me, personally, and it will show that they want people to believe we are under the law in this age of God’s grace. They can easily attack me but they can not say that the scriptures I have presented do not say what I have reported them to say.

Under grace a person must place their faith (belief) in God’s promise of salvation based on their belief in what He (Jesus) did on the cross where He paid for the sins of the whole world. Through the gospel of grace that was given to Paul God, Himself, paid for the sins of the world and a person has to believe it to have salvation. If they do not then they are condemned because they do not believe God.

John 6:26-29
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. [27] Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. [28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

^the above states that “you believe on him whom he hath sent” is a work but not a work of man which is in vain but a work of God. Can’t deny the above says “this is the work of God”. In disputing the works of men don’t then deny the work of God is “that you believe on him whom he has sent”. Also the above passage points out clearly there is meat which perishes and meat which endures and is everlasting...the meat which endures and is everlasting given only(a work) of God. “which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.“ faith without the work of God IS dead. There is No resurrection power in Faith without the work of God.

Same with works. The vain works of men perish. The work of God does not perish as the meat God gives does not perish.

James 1:25-27 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. [26] If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. [27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

^ in the above “...this man shall be blessed in his deed.” BECAUSE of “the perfect law of Liberty” which CAN ONLY be Christ. The above goes on to speak of deceit in the heart and ...this man’s religion is vain (without Spirit). No works of God which do not perish as the difference between meat which fills the belly and perishes or the meat of God which does not perish. One is works of flesh. One is “fruit of the Spirit”.

2 Corinthians 10:10-13 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible. [11] Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present. [12] For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. [13] But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

1 Corinthians 15:55-58 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? [56] The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. [57] But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [58] Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

^ labor not in vain ...Labour that does not perish is labor “in the Lord” abounding in the work of the Lord. Always. Blessed is this man who labours not in vain but in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:14-17 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain,(without resurrection power, without Spirit) and your faith is also vain. [15] Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. [16] For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: [17] And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

^does the above sound familiar? It should. Without the resurrection power of God...your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins. So faith without the works of God which work of God is that you believe on him he sent...without the resurrection work of God faith is dead(vain), being alone.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

John 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [25] He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

“...it brings forth much fruit” fruit of the Spirit...works of God. Where there is no resurrection power there is no resurrection life and faith IS dead. James does not contradict Paul. Neither does the Old Testament contradict the New Testament. In disputing men and their works you are suggesting James is a contradiction to Paul but James say the same in looking into the Liberty which is Christ.

James 2:20
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Want to read about an real “O foolish man” read of Nabal which means “fool” (1 Samuel 25:1-42)Now therefore know and consider what thou wilt do; for evil is determined against our master, and against all his household: for he is such a son of Belial, that a man cannot speak to him.”

Pay attention to the handmaiden Abagail meaning “to rejoice” or the Father’s joy.
1 Samuel 25:41 And she arose, and bowed herself on her face to the earth, and said, Behold, let thine handmaid be a servant to wash the feet of the servants of my lord.

The whole plan of redemption is in 1 Samuel 25. works of God. “This IS the work of God the you believe in Him whom He sent.” About works Nabal speaks as the fool 1 Samuel 25:11
Shall I then take my bread, and my water, and my flesh that I have killed for my shearers, and give it unto men, whom I know not whence they be ?

GodsGrace · Jun 29, 2019

justbyfaith said:
None of those verses teach that salvation (continued or otherwise) is of works.

And no other verses that you can present would teach that either.

Because if they did, they would be in contradiction to specific verses in the Bible that tell us that salvation is not of works.

Please take the time to read and meditate upon the meaning of the following scriptures...

Ephesians 2:9 and context.

Titus 3:4-7.

Romans 4:1-8.

Romans 11:5-6.

So Ephesians 2:8-9 trumps every other verse in the N.T.?
You pick ONLY the ones you like and state that the ones about works mean nothing?

Let's check some out:
Galatians 6:9-10
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

We will reap IF WE DO NOT GROW WEARY...
otherwise WE WILL NOT REAP.

1 Peter 3:8-13
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.

The one who desires LIFE, MUST keep his tongue from evil.
If we desire LIFE, we must behave as God wants us to.

John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Those that did good deeds will be raised to a life of resurrection.
Those who did not do good deeds will be raised to a life of jdugement...which is damnation.

Need more? There are plenty more.

And now we'll look at the verses you posted:

Ephesians 2:9
No one was EVER saved by good works.
Even in the O.T. persons were saved by faith.
AFTER they were saved,,,they were required to obey God.
Deuteronomy 11:1
Romans 1:5
Revelation 14:22

Titus 3:4-7
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Right. In the New Covenant we are saved by faith in Jesus and we are renewed by the Holy Spirit...the O.T. believers did not have this help. John 16:7
We are now made heirs through Jesus and not by trying to maintain the 613 laws of Moses....which never worked anyway unless one had faith. But when he did have faith, he STILL had to keep all these laws. The ONLY law we must keep today is the moral law,,,the 10 commandments.

Romans 4:1-8
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

It's really important to understand about works.
Abraham was saved because of His faith.
He believed God...
but what did Abraham do?
When God told him to leave his home...
HE DID.
Faith is followed by obedience. If we trust God, we trust
what He tells us to do.

AND, it's really important to understand that when Paul is talking about these works...he means the 613 laws of Moses. If not, why would Paul be telling us in every one of his letter exactly HOW we should be living for God?

There are works to become saved...which does not function.
There are works because we ARE SAVED....OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.
Romans 1:5
We obey because we have faith.

Romans 11:5-6
5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

See above...it's exactly the same argument.
You, and many others, really do need to understand this.

Then also check out
Romans 11:21-22
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

We must continue in God's kindness in order to remain
grafted in...otherwise He will cut us off, just like He did to the unbelieving Jews.

GodsGrace · Jun 29, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
I think that it IS possible to turn back to the world if one is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit--the indwelling is true salvation (Romans 8:9). How can we mere mortals do anything to reverse that? We can grieve the Holy Spirit by our behavior subsequent to salvation, but He will be there reproving and shaping our character until the day we join Jesus. Yes?

Can't remember if I've already answered this....
I too believe it's possible to turn back to the world...although perhaps not probable.
As long as we REMAIN IN JESUS, yes, the Holy Spirit is there to help us,,,just as Jesus said in John 16:7

GodsGrace · Jun 29, 2019

ScottA said:
I did not say that baptism is unnecessary. Indeed it is. But the power is not in the ceremonial use of water, but rather by the power of God through the Spirit.

As for "LAWLESSNESS", what is unlawful, is to do things in the name of the Lord without the Spirit. Jesus made it clear that His words are spirit, that the water that He gives is spirit; and the scriptures do not say "water", but rather say "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

Scott,
What is UNLAWFULL is to do things against the LAW.

What law?

The ones Jesus left us with:
the 10 commandments
and anything else He might have said to do...which he did.

GodsGrace · Jun 29, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Luke 8:13 is speaking of a lukewarm, nominal, or shallow faith...a faith that amounts to mental assent to the tenets of the gospel without belief trickling down to the heart.

Luke 6:47, on the other hand, is speaking of the kind of faith that is spoken of in Romans 10:10, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22...a heart faith that is unto righteousness and enduring to the end.

I don't know JBF,

I hear this all the time.
Who cares WHAT TYPE of faith it is.

How many types of faith are there?
Jesus said we need the faith of a mustard seed.

JESUS SAID the person BELIEVED FOR A WHILE.

One must believe to be saved.
If one believes FOR A WHILE...
he is saved FOR A WHILE.

I don't think we should debate and argue over something
JESUS HIMSELF SAID.

H. Richard · Jun 29, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Since I was circumcised the eighth day, I will consider that James is inspired and written to me.

I have to say that I think you're missing out on a veritable treasure in the book of James.

It is a mighty blessing to me.

And I think also that you could miss out on salvation itself in that you reject the book of James as being God's word (see Revelation 22:19).

I think that James 1:22, for example, really does substantiate the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23.

It says, But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

I think that you, @H. Richard, would have us believe that it is only Jews who are deceived when they fail to be doers of the word. I happen to believe that it is true of everyone across the board.

First of all there is no way that I am not already a child of God through Jesus' work on the cross. Only the Jews were under the law of Moses but you must not be able to see it. The religious love the book of James and want to hang it around the neck of those that are saved under Paul's gospel of God's grace.

The writings of James;
1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found

So much for grace.

H. Richard · Jun 29, 2019

firstthings1st. said:
Amen

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

H. Richard · Jun 29, 2019

firstthings1st. said:
I believe that all scriptures by the inspiration of God.

First, inspired Scripture is important for teaching. As a young minister, Timothy was being reminded of the importance of using Scripture, rather than personal opinions, as the basis for teaching. Second, inspired Scripture is useful for reproof or pointing out wrong.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

If a person truly believes the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit (WHICH I TRULY BELIEVE) they must accept that James was right when he wrote James 1:1. To believe it included the Gentiles is just man twisting James 1:1 to mean what they want it to mean.

WalterandDebbie · Jun 29, 2019

H. Richard said:
If a person truly believes the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit (WHICH I TRULY BELIEVE) they must accept that James was right when he wrote James 1:1. To believe it included the Gentiles is just man twisting James 1:1 to mean what they want it to mean.

Amen, But rightly dividing the word of truth unto GOD, II Timothy 2:15

H. Richard · Jun 29, 2019

VictoryinJesus said:
John 6:26-29
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. [27] Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. [28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

^the above states that “you believe on him whom he hath sent” is a work but not a work of man which is in vain but a work of God. Can’t deny the above says “this is the work of God”. In disputing the works of men don’t then deny the work of God is “that you believe on him whom he has sent”. Also the above passage points out clearly there is meat which perishes and meat which endures and is everlasting...the meat which endures and is everlasting given only(a work) of God. “which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.“ faith without the work of God IS dead. There is No resurrection power in Faith without the work of God.

Same with works. The vain works of men perish. The work of God does not perish as the meat God gives does not perish.

James 1:25-27 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. [26] If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. [27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

^ in the above “...this man shall be blessed in his deed.” BECAUSE of “the perfect law of Liberty” which CAN ONLY be Christ. The above goes on to speak of deceit in the heart and ...this man’s religion is vain (without Spirit). No works of God which do not perish as the difference between meat which fills the belly and perishes or the meat of God which does not perish. One is works of flesh. One is “fruit of the Spirit”.

2 Corinthians 10:10-13 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible. [11] Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present. [12] For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. [13] But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

1 Corinthians 15:55-58 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? [56] The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. [57] But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [58] Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

^ labor not in vain ...Labour that does not perish is labor “in the Lord” abounding in the work of the Lord. Always. Blessed is this man who labours not in vain but in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:14-17 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain,(without resurrection power, without Spirit) and your faith is also vain. [15] Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. [16] For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: [17] And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

^does the above sound familiar? It should. Without the resurrection power of God...your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins. So faith without the works of God which work of God is that you believe on him he sent...without the resurrection work of God faith is dead(vain), being alone.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

John 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [25] He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

“...it brings forth much fruit” fruit of the Spirit...works of God. Where there is no resurrection power there is no resurrection life and faith IS dead. James does not contradict Paul. Neither does the Old Testament contradict the New Testament. In disputing men and their works you are suggesting James is a contradiction to Paul but James say the same in looking into the Liberty which is Christ.

James 2:20
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Want to read about an real “O foolish man” read of Nabal which means “fool” (1 Samuel 25:1-42)Now therefore know and consider what thou wilt do; for evil is determined against our master, and against all his household: for he is such a son of Belial, that a man cannot speak to him.”

Pay attention to the handmaiden Abagail meaning “to rejoice” or the Father’s joy.
1 Samuel 25:41 And she arose, and bowed herself on her face to the earth, and said, Behold, let thine handmaid be a servant to wash the feet of the servants of my lord.

The whole plan of redemption is in 1 Samuel 25. works of God. “This IS the work of God the you believe in Him whom He sent.” About works Nabal speaks as the fool 1 Samuel 25:11
Shall I then take my bread, and my water, and my flesh that I have killed for my shearers, and give it unto men, whom I know not whence they be ?

Such a long reply without knowledge. Jesus came to the Jews ONLY who were under the law of Moses. If the Jews had believed in Him they would have accepted their Messiah and King, But they, THE JEWS, did not believe Him. Stop taking what Jesus said to the Jews for your salvation because no one will be saved under the law of Moses.

This is not saying that Jesus did not have a separate reason for coming but the reason was HIDDEN in God and revealed to Paul. That reason is/was that Jesus would pay for all the sins of the world. You want find that in the 4 gospels. It was only revealed to Paul.

GodsGrace · Jun 29, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
No--not everyone who claims to be a Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. In Acts 19, we see the Apostle Paul encountering believers in Ephesus who were without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 2:20-22 is quite likely referring to those who have not received the Holy Spirit--that "soil" (see Matthew 13) which readily received the seed, but whose roots were shallow because of underlying rock (only the Holy Spirit can soften hearts of stone). That "seed faith" dies in the "hot sun" of testing. Since we did nothing to receive the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it follows that we can do nothing to remove Him. Why do so many have such a difficult time accepting that "God is in control"?

God is in control?

So are you a calvinist in hiding?

VictoryinJesus · Jun 29, 2019

H. Richard said:
Such a long reply without knowledge. Jesus came to the Jews ONLY who were under the law of Moses. If the Jews had believed in Him they would have accepted their Messiah and King, But they, THE JEWS, did not believe Him. Stop taking what Jesus said to the Jews for your salvation because no one will be saved under the law of Moses.

This is not saying that Jesus did not have a separate reason for coming but the reason was HIDDEN in God and revealed to Paul. That reason is/was that Jesus would pay for all the sins of the world. You want find that in the 4 gospels. It was only revealed to Paul.

Does James not speak of looking into the perfect law of Liberty? Is the perfect law of Liberty not Christ?James 1:23-25 KJV
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is , there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

“Unto all them that obey him” to obey Him we first need to hear Him. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

As far as boasting... so no flesh can boast. Doesn’t mean Spirit (And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.)cannot make our boast in the Lord: Psalm 34:1-3 I will bless the Lord at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth. [2] My soul shall make her boast in the Lord : the humble shall hear thereof , and be glad. [3] O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his name together.

Spin it however you want...The perfect law of Liberty is Christ which James speaks of. Yes, as Jesus told the woman referred to as a dog that the children’s bread was not to be given to dogs...it didn’t end there but bread is offered to all. There is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female in Spirit but One new man created in Christ. The wall of partition torn down. So you tell me why james speaks of the Law of Liberty and that natural man forgetting who he is created anew and Paul speaks of the same staring into Liberty being changed from glory to glory “even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

Lady Crosstalk · Jun 29, 2019

GodsGrace said:
I don't know JBF,

I hear this all the time.
Who cares WHAT TYPE of faith it is.

How many types of faith are there?
Jesus said we need the faith of a mustard seed.

JESUS SAID the person BELIEVED FOR A WHILE.

One must believe to be saved.
If one believes FOR A WHILE...
he is saved FOR A WHILE.

I don't think we should debate and argue over something
JESUS HIMSELF SAID.

What are you referencing that "Jesus Himself said"?

GodsGrace said:
God is in control?

So are you a calvinist in hiding?

Horrors, NO! They carry the whole idea of God's sovereignty to extremes--and truth is rarely found in the extreme of any theological position. I am merely saying that I simply don't know how the sovereignty of God (which I very firmly believe in) intersects with the free will of man (which I very firmly believe in as well). The Calvinists deny that man has free will which I consider to be quite un-Biblical.

Lady Crosstalk · Jun 29, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Can't remember if I've already answered this....
I too believe it's possible to turn back to the world...although perhaps not probable.
As long as we REMAIN IN JESUS, yes, the Holy Spirit is there to help us,,,just as Jesus said in John 16:7

If you are speaking of the Parable of the Four Soils from Matthew 13, it is interesting to note that the Lord never says that they "believe" but rather that they merely "hear the message and immediately receive the message with great joy." Paul said in Romans 10 that Israel both heard and understood the message but they did not believe because their hearts were disobedient and rebellious.

GodsGrace · Jun 29, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
What are you referencing that "Jesus Himself said"?

The other member and I were discussing
Luke 8:13 The parable of the sower

Horrors, NO! They carry the whole idea of God's sovereignty to extremes--and truth is rarely found in the extreme of any theological position. I am merely saying that I simply don't know how the sovereignty of God (which I very firmly believe in) intersects with the free will of man (which I very firmly believe in as well). The Calvinists deny that man has free will which I consider to be quite un-Biblical.

Agreed!

I must say I've come to understand a LITTLE BIT about reconciling God's sovereignty and our free will.

We have free will in our actions,,,,
but in the end God will have His way and HIS plan will be completed.

Think of a football game. Each player does what he WANTS to do.
But, somehow, that game will end the way GOD wants it to.

GodsGrace · Jun 29, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
If you are speaking of the Parable of the Four Soils from Matthew 13, it is interesting to note that the Lord never says that they "believe" but rather that they merely "hear the message and immediately receive the message with great joy."

OK.
Yes, it's Mathew 13:20-21 OR Luke 8:13

If we take Matthews account, it's really the same.
Jesus said the man HEARS the word and RECEIVES IT WITH JOY.
But the receiving, or the joy, is only temporary (exactly like Luke) because
the person is afflicted, because he does not have a firm root, and he immediately falls away.

What did the person fall away from?
His belief,,,,which saved him temporarily.

(happily, the bible does not contradict itself)

ScottA · Jun 29, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Scott,
What is UNLAWFULL is to do things against the LAW.

What law?

The ones Jesus left us with:
the 10 commandments
and anything else He might have said to do...which he did.

Thank you for that general definition of the law.

But we are not speaking of the general definition, but of what is true of baptism. My reference to Christ saying that there would be some who would be told "I never knew you", was also general. Thus, it was not meant for you to go off on some tangent about all that is law, but to say that these things that are here and now being misrepresented by saying that [liquid] "water saves", is also under that same warning from Christ.

Stay in context.

GodsGrace · Jun 29, 2019

ScottA said:
Thank you for that general definition of the law.

But we are not speaking of the general definition, but of what is true of baptism. My reference to Christ saying that there would be some who would be told "I never knew you", was also general. Thus, it was not meant for you to go off on some tangent about all that is law, but to say that these things that are here and now being misrepresented by saying that [liquid] "water saves", is also under that same warning from Christ.

Stay in context.

I keep hearing that the ones to whom Jesus said " I never knew you " are the unsaved because He never knew them.

No where in those verses is there any mention of being saved...
but it DOES speak to lawfullness.

I don't think I go off on tangents...

As to baptism,,,I know you're not reading every post of mine, but
I never said one MUST BE baptized to be saved.
What I've said is that Jesus said to be baptized, and so we should.

Where did Jesus speak of liquid water saving?
(not including John 3:5)

Grailhunter · Jun 29, 2019

GodsGrace said:
I keep hearing that the ones to whom Jesus said " I never knew you " are the unsaved because He never knew them.

No where in those verses is there any mention of being saved...
but it DOES speak to lawfullness.

I don't think I go off on tangents...

As to baptism,,,I know you're not reading every post of mine, but
I never said one MUST BE baptized to be saved.
What I've said is that Jesus said to be baptized, and so we should.

Where did Jesus speak of liquid water saving?
(not including John 3:5)

In everyone's defense it would take both hands to stay on topic in this thread.
Maybe ScottA is referring to born again?

Please explain this.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads