The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Grams said:

Yep............!

I understand that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was Catholic years ago......... and had to do some of that stufff,,,,

And other things........... Back then it was not nice............ I sure hope they have changed.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im 83 years old.

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Sounds like you misunderstood what you were taught by the CC. Whose fault it that?

Illuminator said:

I think we should stop feeding the troll, all that diabolical screeching against the mother of Jesus is nauseating.

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It a bit like a vampire reeling from the sight of a crucifix. Aversion to holy things is a sign of demonic influence.

RogerDC said:

It a bit like a vampire reeling from the sight of a crucifix. Aversion to holy things is a sign of demonic influence.

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So is slander.

justbyfaith said:

I was actually referring to Revelation 11:15-19. If you compare these verses to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, I believe that you will see that there is a rapture at the last or seventh angelic trumpet and that the bema seat judgment of the saints occurs at that time. So it is not only the two witnesses who are caught up in that moment; but it is the moment that the whole of the church will be raptured. While those who are designated as Philadelphia and who overcome by keeping the word of His patience will very likely be raptured 3 1/2 years before.

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I see what you mean, but I believe we may be overlooking something since the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 may not be referring to the last trump of the seven trumpets in Revelation 11:15-19 as it reads like the end of the great tribulation when the nations of the world will become His for why the nations are angry whereby the time of the dead of the prophets & saints that went thru the great tribulation will be rewarded when they are resurrected after the great tribulation which is after the nations have been defeated and Satan has been placed in the pit for a thousand years.

No; for the seven trumpets occur as the result of the seventh seal being broken, if you will look at it more carefully.

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Sorry. I needed to clarify what I had failed to draw to a sound conclusion is that like the seven seals which has to be broken for the scroll to unravel to reveal the events that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth "after the rapture", so the seven trumpets "of which the first three sounded" to set up that hour of temptation on the earth which was "after the rapture", which then later on, that last of the seventh trumpet will signal the end of that hour of temptation on the earth for when Christ returns as the King of kings.

I also see it; but not only a pre-tribulation rapture but very likely a mid-trib or pre-wrath rapture also (or only), at the seventh or last angelic trumpet.

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I do thank you for pointing out the two witnesses in being called to come up hither after their death & resurrection, of which I believe will be Enoch & Elijah, during the great tribulation, but that was not at the last of the seven trumpets. The seals were broken after the rapture to show what was to come afterwards as I discern for clarity of my earlier thought to a sound conclusion after your last post that the seven trumpets sounding were for initiating the hour of temptation by the first 3 angels and the recent conclusion that the seventh angel for signaling of the ending of that "hour". If there was a reward for saints that went thru the great tribulation at the end, then the logical conclusion is that only the two witnesses were taken up.

But hey, we prophesy in part & know in part so we will find out for sure, thanks to Jesus Christ.

RogerDC said:

Sounds like you misunderstood what you were taught by the CC. Whose fault it that?

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The church & !!!!!!!! & Priest , & !!!!!!! & Nuns........ ........... ........ Keep reading the same ! things have changed and they do not know
or what to know......... ?

They do not use the bible and do not know the truth !!!!!!!!

Cant learn much from a prayer book !

The reason for the old testament and the new testament !!!!!!!

THINGS HAVE CHANGED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RogerDC said:

Which Catholic document recommends that Catholics should pray to statues?

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Which document doesn't teach folks pray to saints via statues?

BreadOfLife said:

Then you were an idolator.
An ignorant idolator - but an idolator nonetheless . . .

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Yes I was, just like all practicing Catholics today.
Thank God the He delivered me from the idolatrous RCC.

BreadOfLife said:

Nope - not ONE SHRED.

However - since you are pretending that I haven't already educated you about this - here is my response from post #1388 to refresh your memory, Einstein:

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? The Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? Ignorant anti-Catholics like YOU attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

Finally, Mary’s question to the Angel is very telling about her intention to remain a virgin:

Luke 1:34: Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
Mary was a betrothed girl who knew about marital relations. She didn’t say “How can this be, since I have not known a man?” She said “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

She was stating her intention to remain a virgin and was puzzled by Gabriel’s announcement that she was to have a child. She knew that God was aware of her intentions. Her bewilderment and the words “I do not know”, as opposed to “I have not known”, is clear evidence that she had no intention of having marital relations.

You lose because you're Scripturally-bankrupt . . .

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Matt 1:25 says ....”....he knew her not until..”
Right, sometimes a fella has to wait until the right time. Only a celibate priest would be puzzled by this statement in Matt.
....not one shred?



Okay, try this....

They refrained from sexual relations until....


Does this make it clearer?

BreadOfLife said:

Ahhhh - more of your patented ignorance.
Time for another Bible lesson . . .

Ummmmm, let's start with the fact that Chapter and Verse weren't added to Scripture until it was added by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. EVERY Book of the Bible was written as ONE long, continuous letter with NO chapter breaks - NO verse numbers.

Still with me, Einstein?
Let's move on . . .

In the Book of Revelation, we see the New Ark of the Covenant in Heaven being spoken of at the very end of Chapter 11, verse 19: Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

The very next verse is in Chapter 12 (Rev 12:1): A great sign appeared in the sky, a WOMAN clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Verse 2 says: She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

We know that this child is Jesus because in verse 4, we read: She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.

There is simply NO getting around the fact that the Woman here in Revelation 12 is Mary.

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No, the woman is Israel.

Jesus was born an Israelite.

The 12 stars are the 12 tribes.

This future prophecy shows the dragon chasing Israel around, not Mary.



Also, what is this speaking of?...


17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.





Question, do you think Mary in heaven is being chased into the wilderness by satan?

Does the RCC teach that?

Truther said:

No, the woman is Israel.

Jesus was born an Israelite.

The 12 stars are the 12 tribes.

This future prophecy shows the dragon chasing Israel around, not Mary.


Also, what is this speaking of?...


17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Question, do you think Mary in heaven is being chased into the wilderness by satan?

Does the RCC teach this

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Amen! I agree, BOL is on record with Mary having NO Children ... but here we see him on record as Mary having many children and the dragon making war with the remnant of her seed! WHEW! Simply Amazing!


God Bless!

BreadOfLife said:

Yup - just Like Mary was puzzled by the Angel's message because it was her intention to remain a virgin.

You can't win on this one because you can't produce ONE SHRED of Scriptural evidence that I haven't shot down in flames - with Scripture . . .

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Her intention to remain a virgin??? You failed to provide scripture.

Further, on post #1349 you are on record as stating Revelation 12:1 as being MARY (and NOT Israel as scripture indicates).


You went on to say...

"Verse 2 says: She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

We know that this child is Jesus because in verse 4, we read: She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.

There is simply NO getting around the fact that the Woman here in Revelation 12 is Mary."

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Therefore if this is truly Mary, as YOU say, then you have Mary with many children. Let's read on...

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Oppsss! You seem to have a major problem.

user said:

Oppsss! You seem to have a major problem.

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We don't think "the remnant of her seed" are biological offspring. You have a major problem.

Illuminator said:

We don't think "the remnant of her seed" are biological offspring. You have a major problem.

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If the woman is Israel, then the seed of the woman are indeed her biological offspring.

It is a major hermeneutic of the Bible that it is to be taken literally except in cases where it is clearly parable, metaphor, or simile based on the surrounding language.

Israel was always considered the woman in its relationship with God

Grams said:

Cant learn much from a prayer book !

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Try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church - you'll learn more from studying that in one day than you will from studying the Bible for a century. Relying on your own power to interpret the Bible always leads to false doctrine and false churches

Truther said:

No, the woman is Israel.

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My understanding is, the "woman clothed with the sun" in Rev 12 has three identities - Israel, the Virgin Mary, the Church.

user said:

Amen! I agree, BOL is on record with Mary having NO Children ... but here we see him on record as Mary having many children and the dragon making war with the remnant of her seed! WHEW! Simply Amazing!

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If the Catholic Church says Mary is a perpetual virgin and only had one child, then that is the truth. Relying on your interpretation of the Bible as your primary source of truth is barking up the wrong tree and leads to errors and false doctrines - the Church is the primary source of truth (1Tim 3:15, Eph 1:22).

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user said:

Therefore if this is truly Mary, as YOU say, then you have Mary with many children. Let's read on...

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Oppsss! You seem to have a major problem.

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Er, you seem to have a major problem - you're implying Mary gave birth to all Christians (ie, those who "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ").

justbyfaith said:

If the woman is Israel, then the seed of the woman are indeed her biological offspring.

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So Mary gave birth to all those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ? How does Mary manage to give birth to millions/billions of Christians?