The Pillar and Ground of the Truth

marks · Feb 5, 2020

Giuliano said:
Who should we believe then? If the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, don't we need to have a way of finding out who we should believe when they tell us something? If the minister drinks too much or beats his wife, should we look at him as someone who can be counted on to give us truth?

OK, you mean in the other direction.

Personally I see this statement, the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth as an idealized statement, truth is found in the church, not that this means EVERY congregation.

And Paul also said that some division is needed so that people can know who is approved.

But the test for what someone teaches is, for me, always by confirming in the Bible. My pastor, well, I don't live with the man, so I don't know him as well as those who do, but what I do know of him tells me that he is mature in Christ as seen in his life of love.

Overseers should be as Scripture prescribes, so no, a wife-abuser or drunk should not hold that position.

Much love!

Enow · Feb 5, 2020

Giuliano said:
It may have something to do with that, but why call the church that?

As in 2 or 3 gathered in my name as in a assembly? Probably because I see the church as a body of Christ rather than a building or specific place of worship as Christians generally gather today. In the address to the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25 , God had warned those believers that were identified by those iniquities to repent of them and then He addressed those in that city that knew not of the errant doctrines nor the depths of Satan for which those in error did speak, kind of made me believe that those saints at that city were not of that errant assembly, even though God addressed the church as in the body of Christ, as a whole at that city.

101G · Feb 5, 2020

Giuliano said:
Does this mean we should question ourselves, perhaps even doubt ourselves, if we find ourselves disagreeing with "the church"?

My advice, Pray and follow the Spirit, for he will guide you. for, Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit".

PICJAG

RogerDC · Feb 5, 2020

Giuliano said:
I do not have a firm idea about what 1 Timothy 3:15 means, but it does seem clear that some Christians willing to ignore it. What does it mean to other people? What is the role of the church in matters of the truth?

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

That verse means the Church - not the Scriptures - is the primary source of truth. Eph 1:22-23 says the Church is the "fullness" of Christ. Nowhere do the Scriptures say the Scriptures are the "pillar and foundation of the truth" or that the Scriptures are "fullness" of Christ.

Now all you have to do it figure who and what the "Church" is. Firstly, it must teach consistent and uniform doctrine, since "truth" cannot be doctrines that differ and are in conflict with each other. This rules out the Church as being the general body of "believers", since believers have many different and conflicting doctrines. Secondly, the Church must be able to traced historically directly to the apostles, as the Church is indestructible - Jesus said the "gate of Hell will not prevail against it" (Matt 16).

The "Church" referred to the 1Tim 3:15 (and Eph 1:22) is the Catholic Church.

Mike Waters · Feb 6, 2020

Superb threat and collection of responses that have been a great help to this 'down at the heel' 85 year old (physically, and nearly as old spiritually).
Especially 101G @ #5.

Windmillcharge · Feb 6, 2020

Giuliano said:
What role does the Bible play in this? Many people believe the Bible is the sole source of truth.

Paul was writing part of the new testament inthe letter he sent Timothy. So he got a manuscript version, that was also an autographed version. If he as alive today with it,it would be worth millions.

Illuminator · Feb 7, 2020

RogerDC said:
That verse means the Church - not the Scriptures - is the primary source of truth. Eph 1:22-23 says the Church is the "fullness" of Christ. Nowhere do the Scriptures say the Scriptures are the "pillar and foundation of the truth" or that the Scriptures are "fullness" of Christ.

Now all you have to do it figure who and what the "Church" is. Firstly, it must teach consistent and uniform doctrine, since "truth" cannot be doctrines that differ and are in conflict with each other. This rules out the Church as being the general body of "believers", since believers have many different and conflicting doctrines. Secondly, the Church must be able to traced historically directly to the apostles, as the Church is indestructible - Jesus said the "gate of Hell will not prevail against it" (Matt 16).

The "Church" referred to the 1Tim 3:15 (and Eph 1:22) is the Catholic Church.

“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

Invisibilis · Feb 7, 2020

1 Timothy 3:14 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Giuliano said:
...What does it mean to other people?...

To me:
Whose church? In God's household. Not as if I am in my own familiar surroundings, but visiting God's household.
How to conduct myself? Truthfully.

Giuliano said:
...What is the role of the church in matters of the truth?

Follow the truth, the way, and the life of a Son of God, as a Son of Man, as by example of Jesus Christ.
Truth is the only way of life that works. You can't go wrong. As soon as we start distorting the truth to suit our issues and agendas, life goes pear-shaped (wrong), it never ever works out..."Love, Truth, and Faith has left the building!"

Stumpmaster · Feb 7, 2020

Giuliano said:
I do not have a firm idea about what 1 Timothy 3:15 means, but it does seem clear that some Christians willing to ignore it. What does it mean to other people? What is the role of the church in matters of the truth?

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Hi Giuliano. I've just read through this thread and considered what is written. I am an exponent* of "elegant design" which is the term used for something that accomplishes its purpose in a simple yet effective way. I see such elegant design in the text under discussion as it gives us a word picture of God's People who are His "oikos" or "household" called to gather regularly in an assembly, otherwise correctly known as an "ekklesia", upholding and supporting the truth of God's Word in the same way that a pillar and its foundation support a building and protect it from falling down. This is the role of the ekklesia before the world which would have the truth of God's Word crushed and scrapped.

*Definition of Exponent:
1. One that expounds or interprets.
2. One that speaks for, represents, or advocates:

Giuliano · Feb 8, 2020

Invisibilis said:
1 Timothy 3:14 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

To me:
Whose church? In God's household. Not as if I am in my own familiar surroundings, but visiting God's household.
How to conduct myself? Truthfully.

Follow the truth, the way, and the life of a Son of God, as a Son of Man, as by example of Jesus Christ.
Truth is the only way of life that works. You can't go wrong. As soon as we start distorting the truth to suit our issues and agendas, life goes pear-shaped (wrong), it never ever works out..."Love, Truth, and Faith has left the building!"

You seem to be going down the path of the truth as seen in Jesus . . . and I agree with that; but what is the role of the church in this? Why does Paul call the church the pillar and foundation of the truth?

Giuliano · Feb 8, 2020

Stumpmaster said:
Hi Giuliano. I've just read through this thread and considered what is written. I am an exponent* of "elegant design" which is the term used for something that accomplishes its purpose in a simple yet effective way. I see such elegant design in the text under discussion as it gives us a word picture of God's People who are His "oikos" or "household" called to gather regularly in an assembly, otherwise correctly known as an "ekklesia", upholding and supporting the truth of God's Word in the same way that a pillar and its foundation support a building and protect it from falling down. This is the role of the ekklesia before the world which would have the truth of God's Word crushed and scrapped.

*Definition of Exponent:
1. One that expounds or interprets.
2. One that speaks for, represents, or advocates:

Do you connect this with what Peter wrote?

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Giuliano · Feb 8, 2020

marks said:
OK, you mean in the other direction.

Personally I see this statement, the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth as an idealized statement, truth is found in the church, not that this means EVERY congregation.

And Paul also said that some division is needed so that people can know who is approved.

But the test for what someone teaches is, for me, always by confirming in the Bible. My pastor, well, I don't live with the man, so I don't know him as well as those who do, but what I do know of him tells me that he is mature in Christ as seen in his life of love.

Overseers should be as Scripture prescribes, so no, a wife-abuser or drunk should not hold that position.

Much love!

What do you think then about adopting the ideas of a wife-abuser or drunk as valid? I think we should be more skeptical about the teachings we get from wife-abusers or drunks than from people of good reputation and who have not created scandals. Surely a drunk would have some right ideas; I assume he would have some right ones -- but odds are he has some wrong ones too -- so we should be more cautious when considering his views.

We read that the truth will set people free. If someone is still enslaved by sin, he may be a Christian but one who is still growing -- he is not a mature Christian who has enough truth that it's set him free yet. If we listen to his words, he may be mixing in false ideas with the true.

Giuliano · Feb 8, 2020

Enow said:
As in 2 or 3 gathered in my name as in a assembly? Probably because I see the church as a body of Christ rather than a building or specific place of worship as Christians generally gather today. In the address to the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25 , God had warned those believers that were identified by those iniquities to repent of them and then He addressed those in that city that knew not of the errant doctrines nor the depths of Satan for which those in error did speak, kind of made me believe that those saints at that city were not of that errant assembly, even though God addressed the church as in the body of Christ, as a whole at that city.

How do we identify the people who are genuinely part of the Body of Christ? If we are to depend on them as the church, the pillar and foundation of the the truth, we need a way to sort out the false members from the genuine. How do we do that?

Giuliano · Feb 8, 2020

101G said:
My advice, Pray and follow the Spirit, for he will guide you. for, Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit".

PICJAG

I think it safe to say by looking around that people can delude themselves into believing they are following the Spirit when they are not. It's safe to say that since we see all kinds of people saying that while disagreeing with each other. Rather than condemn others, I ask myself if maybe I could also be deluded at times.

How do I test myself? How can I be sure I'm not being fooled into thinking I'm being guided by the Holy Spirit? If I ask myself that question, I'm questioning myself, not the Holy Spirit. I think some people who have false spirits get trapped by the demonic, afraid to question themselves -- they believe to question themselves would be to grieve the Holy Spirit. Thus the demonic can keep control over their minds.

Giuliano · Feb 8, 2020

Illuminator said:
“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

If we can believe Acts, we see that Apollos received instruction from Aquila and Priscilla.

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

He had read the Scriptures already, had been instructed "in the way of the Lord" already, but he received more instruction.

Enow · Feb 8, 2020

Giuliano said:
How do we identify the people who are genuinely part of the Body of Christ? If we are to depend on them as the church, the pillar and foundation of the the truth, we need a way to sort out the false members from the genuine. How do we do that?

Every professing believer is a member of the body of Christ, but not every one is abiding in Him. Paul teaches us this here.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;..........14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So it is about correcting error by the scripture with His help as the head of every believer is Christ aka the Word of God just as the head of the church is.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Invisibilis · Feb 8, 2020

Giuliano said:
You seem to be going down the path of the truth as seen in Jesus . . . and I agree with that; but what is the role of the church in this? Why does Paul call the church the pillar and foundation of the truth?

Paul is saying that the living God is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Giuliano · Feb 8, 2020

Invisibilis said:
Paul is saying that the living God is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Sorry, I can't read it that way.

Giuliano · Feb 8, 2020

Enow said:
Every professing believer is a member of the body of Christ, but not every one is abiding in Him.

What about those mentioned in Jude?

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I read that to mean that the children of the serpent would infiltrate Christianity just as they had Judaism.

Paul teaches us this here.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;..........14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So it is about correcting error by the scripture with His help as the head of every believer is Christ aka the Word of God just as the head of the church is.

What "tradition" is meant?

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What I find interesting in this passage is that Paul uses the word "scriptures" referring to the books of the Old Testament since the ones in the New wouldn't have been around when Timothy was a child. Yet today, most Christians refer to the New Testament and seldom to the Old.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

We have to admit Christianity as a whole has failed at this, don't we? Christianity is divided with many contradictory doctrines being taught. Where is the unity and love? Paul's advice may be good in theory, but where have we gone wrong in practice?

Giuliano · Feb 8, 2020

RogerDC said:
That verse means the Church - not the Scriptures - is the primary source of truth. Eph 1:22-23 says the Church is the "fullness" of Christ. Nowhere do the Scriptures say the Scriptures are the "pillar and foundation of the truth" or that the Scriptures are "fullness" of Christ.

Now all you have to do it figure who and what the "Church" is. Firstly, it must teach consistent and uniform doctrine, since "truth" cannot be doctrines that differ and are in conflict with each other.

I would not go this far. I would say the "Church" must be consistent in doctrines that are critical to people believing. There are other issues that people can differ about which the Orthodox Church calls "controversial issues."

This rules out the Church as being the general body of "believers", since believers have many different and conflicting doctrines. Secondly, the Church must be able to traced historically directly to the apostles, as the Church is indestructible - Jesus said the "gate of Hell will not prevail against it" (Matt 16).

The "Church" referred to the 1Tim 3:15 (and Eph 1:22) is the Catholic Church.

What about the churches of Antioch and Alexandria or the one established by Thomas in India?

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