what do you see wrong with this ?

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Ernest T. Bass

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In this part . . . first you say faith, then you say obedience.

The faith is described as "a faith that is obedient to the will of God", and then you say that "obedience is necessary". But if one has an obedient faith, isn't the necessity of obedience a moot point?

And so what is actually required is that "obedient faith" that you first said?

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Faith in the Bible that saves includes obedience. The Bible ties faith and obedience so closely together that faith itself is obedience.

"Obedient faith" does obviously include obedience.
"Faith" includes obedience.

Obedience is necessary to keep one from serving "sin unto death" (lost) but obedience has one serving "obedience unto righteousness" (saved) Romans 6:16. Faith void of obedience therefore does not save/justify, James 2.

Paul is pointing out in Romans 6 that grace saves but grace alone does not save. It takes God's grace and man's obedience to be saved.

Obedience is necessary:
1) to be saved by making one a servant of righteousness, serving "obedience unto righteousness". Romans 6
2) to love God, John 14:15; John 14:21; John 15:10; etc


Therefore lack of obedience has one serving unrighteousness/"sin unto death" and is clear indication one does not love God.

How then can one ever become saved apart from obedience? It would be impossible.
 
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marksman

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When people claim that we are saved by grace alone, and by nothing else, they are really saying that keeping the commandments of God is not necessary to salvation. But what does the scripture say? i been doing a study on grace on the net ran across this.. the page was good up to this point . paul wrote in ephesian 2 by grace are ye saved through faith
No, they are not as keeping the commandments is not required for salvation. The only requirement is that you believe Jesus is the son of God and that his death on the cross is sufficient to cleanse you from ALL your sin. Keeping the commandments follows on from that and we can only do that through the finished work of Christ, not by struggling to.
 
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RogerDC

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If you had unconditional faith, you would 'know' what's God's will is for you, and you will have the courage to carry it out. In other words, do good works for God. If your faith is conditional, then all your works are for self and not for God, even if you think differently.
What are “good works for God”? Can you provide an example, please?

What are “works … for self”? Can you provide an example, please?
 

RogerDC

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we are saved by grace through faith justified by faith and grace
I agree with the first part - “We are saved by grace through faith”; but as the second part, “justified by faith and grace”, I’m not so sure. James 2:24 says we are justified by faith and works, so faith alone doesn’t justify us unto salvation.

As for being justified by “grace”, which Scripture says so? Maybe you’re referring to the justification that comes from the death of Jesus (Romans 5:9-10). My understanding is, grace is not part of the justification process - it is a result of justification.
 

RogerDC

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show scripture that says you can
There are several Scriptures that imply justification can be lost, but common sense alone should tell you that that justification can be lost. For example, if a believer loses his faith, is he still justified? No. There are thousands of atheists in the world who were once justified, believing Christians - now that they’re unbelieving atheists, do you think they’re still justified? No, of course they’re not. Loss of faith means loss of justification. Justification can also be lost due to committing “deadly” sins.

But since you asked for Scriptures which demonstrate that justification can be lost, here are a few:

"And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy, but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13).
Believers that are initially justified can fall away - meaning they lose their faith, thereby losing the justification that comes as a result of faith.

”There is sin which is deadly” (1John 5:16)
A “deadly” sin is sin that puts the believer’s hope of salvation at risk. If a believer is not saved and ends up in Hell, then obviously he lost his justification.

“Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Gal 5:19-21).
Paul warns believers that their sins can lead them to Hell - any believer who ends up in Hell has obviously lost his justification.

“Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity towards those who have fallen, but God’s kindness towards you, provided you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Romans 11:22).
A believer can be become one of “those who have fallen” and be “cut off”. So the justified can become un-justified, through loss of faith or committing “deadly” sins.

” For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned” (Heb 6:4-8).
This passage describes believers who commit apostasy and are ultimately “burned” - in other words, they are justified believers who commit “deadly” sin and end up in Hell. If they were once justified, but end in Hell, then obviously they lost their justification.
 

RogerDC

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No, they are not as keeping the commandments is not required for salvation. The only requirement is that you believe Jesus is the son of God and that his death on the cross is sufficient to cleanse you from ALL your sin.
So a believer can be a serial murderer by performing a thousand abortions and still be saved? Are you sure about that?

“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24).
If you don't keep His commandments, you don't abide in Christ. If you don't abide in Christ, you won't be saved.

“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected.” 1John 2:3-4.
If you don't keep His commandments, you are a LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU - in other words, you are on the road to Hell.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we saved by faith alone. On the contrary, James 2:24 says "a man is justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE". Do you know what "works" are? … "works" are none other than keeping His commandments.
Keeping the commandments follows on from that and we can only do that through the finished work of Christ, not by struggling to.
What a confusing doctrine. On one hand you say, "keeping the commandments is not required for salvation", but on the other hand you seem to be saying we should keep the commandments.

And Scripture simply says, keep the commandments - there is no distinction made between "struggling to" keep them and not "struggling to" keep them, so what are you talking about?
If one has to struggle to keep a commandment, what should one do? Give up, ignore that commandment and disobey it?
 
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Ezra

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There are several Scriptures that imply justification can be lost,
so i see your one of these who live in fear of losing your salvation please note how you used the word imply --->signify or mean; to suggest:
so in other words you dont know . see the age old argument you can lose your salvation or you cant will never be settled . neither side can present scripture that says them exact words.
There is sin which is deadly” (1John 5:16)
A “deadly” sin is sin that puts the believer’s hope of salvation at risk. If a believer is not saved and ends up in Hell, then obviously he lost his justification
you grasping at thin air..maybe you can tell me exactly what that sin is . but i do have news for you. we are only justified one time and one time only save to the uttermost Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. hebrews 7:25 Therefore, he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, since he always lives to intercede for them.

God grace conquers ANY sin
Can you elaborate on that, please? I'm not sure what you mean.
i told you read romans 5:20 , btw let me know if you lost your salvation in the morning.. your taking scripture and twisting for your belief jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, --- Now to him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of his glory, without blemish and with great joy, you put limits on what God can do
Paul warns believers that their sins can lead them to Hell - any believer who ends up in Hell has obviously lost his justification.
i see your one of these if i do it.i am going to hell but if its you no your not going to hell .. a true child of God will repent and turn from . so explain this we have a advocate
1 John 2:1 King James Version (KJV)
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous::eek::eek: before you slam your so called righteous gavel .i am not one of these who say you can live how you want and still make it to heaven. THAT IS NOT BIBLE .but there is plenty scripture on the power of God able to keep us..............nice try but no cigar you do not get to pass go and collect 200.00 :cool:
 

RogerDC

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so i see your one of these who live in fear of losing your salvation please note how you used the word imply --->signify or mean; to suggest:
so in other words you dont know . see the age old argument you can lose your salvation or you cant will never be settled . neither side can present scripture that says them exact words.
There are several Scriptures that imply justification can be lost, as I have already pointed out. Your demand for “exact words” is childish - if we are intelligent adults, we can use our brains and reason from the Scriptures to arrive at the conclusion that justification can be lost and that it is possible for a believer to not reach Heaven.

For example, why does Scripture describe some sins as “deadly” (1John 5:16)? Think about it - it can only be because committing such a sin results in spiritual death … and obviously, spiritual death would mean the loss of justification.
you grasping at thin air..maybe you can tell me exactly what that sin is
Let me get this straight … there are sins that are “deadly” sins - ie, sins that can mean the difference between Heaven and Hell - but you’re clueless as to what they? Are you serious? How can you claim to be an enlightened Christian and not know what these “deadly” sins are? You could be committing a “deadly” sin and not even know it - that’s like a blind man choosing to walk through a mine field and just hoping for the best!
you grasping at thin air..maybe you can tell me exactly what that sin is
Herein lies an example of why relying only on the Scriptures as your only guide is a mistake and a problem - the Scriptures don’t tell us what these “deadly” sins are, because not everything we need to know is revealed in the Scriptures.

You don’t know what these “deadly” sins are, but I do, because the Church (ie, the Catholic Church) has taught me what they are. So I am not like you - a blind man walking through a mine field, hoping for the best - the Church has taught me and enlightened me and thus I can see where the “deadly” danger lies.
but i do have news for you. we are only justified one time and one time only save to the uttermost
Really? What and when is this single moment in which you claim a believer is justified once and forever?
i told you read romans 5:20
In that case, please explain what Romans 5:20 means.
I see your one of these if I do it I am going to hell but if its you no your not going to hell
Sorry, I have no idea what you’re talking about.
i am not one of these who say you can live how you want and still make it to heaven.
Your doctrine doesn’t seem to add up. Earlier in your post, you claimed that once you are justified, you are certain to make it to Heaven. But now you’re saying that, once you are justified, you can’t do whatever you like, because that means you may not make it to Heaven. Please explain this apparent contradiction.
 

RogerDC

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Faith in the Bible that saves includes obedience. The Bible ties faith and obedience so closely together that faith itself is obedience.
Obedience is what James means by “works” in James 2:24-26,
“a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”.

So I would say faith and obedience are separate things, but both are necessary for salvation (think of Araldite, the 2-part glue). Faith is belief; obedience is doing something as a result of that belief (ie, keeping the commandments, which includes repentance).
Obedience is necessary to keep one from serving "sin unto death" (lost) but obedience has one serving "obedience unto righteousness" (saved) Romans 6:16. Faith void of obedience therefore does not save/justify, James 2.
I agree. I think you’re on the right track and you have a sound grasp of what it takes to be saved.
Therefore lack of obedience has one serving unrighteousness/"sin unto death" and is clear indication one does not love God.
Well said. God has demanded obedience from us from the very beginning - starting with Adam and Eve. They failed to be obedient … and look what happened.

I’m glad you mentioned that obedience demonstrates love for God. God tests our hearts by judging how we response to His commandment to obey Him, which is not always easy and we fail sometimes. Love is what salvation is all about … God wants to save those who love Him.

Good post, Ernest T. Bass.
 

Ezra

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You don’t know what these “deadly” sins are, but I do, because the Church (ie, the Catholic Church) has taught me what they are
by all means keep your faith and hope in a church name
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Obedience is what James means by “works” in James 2:24-26,
“a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”.

So I would say faith and obedience are separate things, but both are necessary for salvation (think of Araldite, the 2-part glue). Faith is belief; obedience is doing something as a result of that belief (ie, keeping the commandments, which includes repentance).I agree. I think you’re on the right track and you have a sound grasp of what it takes to be saved. Well said. God has demanded obedience from us from the very beginning - starting with Adam and Eve. They failed to be obedient … and look what happened.

I’m glad you mentioned that obedience demonstrates love for God. God tests our hearts by judging how we response to His commandment to obey Him, which is not always easy and we fail sometimes. Love is what salvation is all about … God wants to save those who love Him.

Good post, Ernest T. Bass.

Hi,

I agree with what you say but I would go even further and say that faith is a form of obedience, so faith and obedience are not totally different things nor mutually exclusive things.

Romans 5:1----------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Romans 6:17-18---------obey from heart>>>>>>>>>>justifies/frees from sin


Since there is just one way to be saved/justified then 'faith' is a form of 'obeying from the heart'. While faith is obedience, then lack of faith would be disobedience (John 3:36 ASV) where John contrasts 'believing' to 'obeying not', Hence 'believing/faith' is obeying and 'believing not' is disobedience that causes one to perish (John 3:16) be condemned (Mark 16:16).

Faith, obedience, love are all tied, entangled together and salvation requires all three making it impossible to be saved by having just one without the others for faith is obedience and obedience is love.
 

RogerDC

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I agree with what you say but I would go even further and say that faith is a form of obedience, so faith and obedience are not totally different things nor mutually exclusive things.
That’s one way of looking at it: Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with your whole being. To obey this commandment to love God, one must first have faith in God.
Romans 5:1----------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Romans 6:17-18---------obey from heart>>>>>>>>>>justifies/frees from sin
Faith justifies, but we are not saved by faith alone (James 2:24).
Since there is just one way to be saved/justified then 'faith' is a form of 'obeying from the heart'.
From beginning to end, Romans 6 is all about repenting and avoiding sin - ie, keeping the commandments, aka “works” (James 2:24). Being “obedient from the heart” (v. 17) is not referring to faith, but to the works that complete our faith - ie, repenting from our former sins and leading a life of holiness and righteousness (1Peter 1:14-17), by obeying the commandments.
While faith is obedience, then lack of faith would be disobedience (John 3:36 ASV) where John contrasts 'believing' to 'obeying not'
Lack of faith would be disobedience, but there is much more to “obedience” than simply accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior. In my opinion, John 3:36 is referring to the same “faith + works” formula that is described in James 2:24 - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”.

The first part of John 3:36 - “He who believes in the Son has eternal life” - equates to “faith” in James 2:24.

The second part of John 3:36 - “he who does not obey the Son” - relates to “works” in James 2:24. What James means by “works” is keeping the commandments of God. So to “not obey the Son” in John 3:36 refers to not obeying the commandments of God.

This same “faith + works” formula described in John 3:36 and James 2:24 is also found in Rev 12:17 - “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (which is repeated in Rev 14:12).

Faith is obedience, but faith alone is “dead” (James 2:26) and does not save - it must be accompanied by keeping the commandments. It is impossible to abide in Christ without keeping the commandments:

“If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love” (John 15:9)
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24)

“If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned … (John 15:6)
 

Ernest T. Bass

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That’s one way of looking at it: Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with your whole being. To obey this commandment to love God, one must first have faith in God.Faith justifies, but we are not saved by faith alone (James 2:24).From beginning to end, Romans 6 is all about repenting and avoiding sin - ie, keeping the commandments, aka “works” (James 2:24). Being “obedient from the heart” (v. 17) is not referring to faith, but to the works that complete our faith - ie, repenting from our former sins and leading a life of holiness and righteousness (1Peter 1:14-17), by obeying the commandments. Lack of faith would be disobedience, but there is much more to “obedience” than simply accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior. In my opinion, John 3:36 is referring to the same “faith + works” formula that is described in James 2:24 - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”.

The first part of John 3:36 - “He who believes in the Son has eternal life” - equates to “faith” in James 2:24.

The second part of John 3:36 - “he who does not obey the Son” - relates to “works” in James 2:24. What James means by “works” is keeping the commandments of God. So to “not obey the Son” in John 3:36 refers to not obeying the commandments of God.

This same “faith + works” formula described in John 3:36 and James 2:24 is also found in Rev 12:17 - “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (which is repeated in Rev 14:12).

Faith is obedience, but faith alone is “dead” (James 2:26) and does not save - it must be accompanied by keeping the commandments. It is impossible to abide in Christ without keeping the commandments:

“If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love” (John 15:9)
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24)

“If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned … (John 15:6)

Yes, "faith alone" is void of obedience hence faith void of obedience (faith alone) does not justify.
Hebrews 11:8 would Abraham been justified had he NOT obeyed in moving from his house land kindred? No for unrighteousness, disobedience to God's will not justify anyone. Therefore Abraham's faith INCLUDED obedience (love for God) and that obedience was necessary to be justified as James points out. By FAITH Abraham OBEYED...

Who will be saved by a faith that does NOT keep the commandments of God? No one.

Romans 6 is a great chapter that refutes the idea that 'grace alone' saves. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not give the Christian the right to sin (disobey God's law). The Christian is one who is dead to sin. Hence salvation is a combination of God's grace and man's obedience. The Christian's obedience is necessary to keep him from serving "sin unto death" (verse 16) and God's grace is needed for those times when the Christian sins in not keeping God's commands.


Romans 6:16--Paul says we are all serve one of two masters, we each are serving either "sin unto death" (condemnation) or serving "obedience unto righteousness" (salvation). I serve obedience unto righteousness. Which master do faith only-ists serve? Faith only eliminates serving "obedience unto righteousness".
 
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