2 Thessalonians 1:8

Ernest T. Bass · Mar 7, 2020

Bobby Jo said:
Sin is sin, regardless of "baptism". It seems the greater WEIGHT is whether we have a sufficient grasp of Scripture so that we may not sin.

But if we need to "justify" our faith, we can always say: WE WERE BAPTIZED! It's certainly easier than OBEDIENCE.
Bobby Jo

In writing to Christians, John said "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

The verb "cleanseth" is present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. The cleansing by the blood of Christ BEGINS at water baptism and as long as the Christian continues to walk in the light (unto death) this cleansing CONTINUES on. It is this ongoing, continuing cleansing that keeps the Christian "without spot and blameless" (2 Peter 3:14) with spot or wrinkle (Ephesians 5:27).

No verse says this cleansing begins at faith only or upon saying a 'sinner's prayer'.

Enow · Mar 7, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
"Born of water" is a reference to water baptism.

This is an earlier quote from you;

Ernest T. Bass said: ↑
"Fleshly birth did not put the Jews into the kingdom of God/the church. Under the OT law physical birth put the Jew into a covenant relationship with God"

I would say you would be hard press to tell the difference between the 2 when under the Old Covenant, they are born into the nation of Israel, the kingdom of God in representing God to the world. John 1:12-13 testified to how the Jews were the sons of God before the New Covenant had come by faith in Jesus Christ is how anyone will become the sons of God now.

The new birth consists of two elements Spirit and water.

The role of water is water baptism.
The role of the Spirit is the Spirit's word, the Bible that instructs men on how to be saved through water baptism. Therefore those men that obey the Spirit's instructions are said to be born again...BY THE WORD (1 Peter 1:23) begat by the word (James 1:18) begotten thorugh the gospel (1 Corinthians 4:14)

John 3:5--------------Spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom

The problem here is, that when Jesus explained to Nicodemus when and how one is born again of the Spirit, He says it is by believing Him, the Word, is how one is saved and thus born again of the Spirit. So when talking to Nicodemus, Nicodemus knew about being born of a Jewish woman as a Jew, but he had asked Jesus how one is born again of the Spirit and how and when it could happen. Believing was how and as to when, after His ascension which is after His resurrection.

Eph 5:26------------the word+++++++laver of water>>>>>>>cleansed

Since that reference was taken out of context about how husbands were to love their wives as Christ does the church, this is not talking about the salvation moment but about how we grow in our relationship with the Lord through the edification of scripture. This is not about water baptism.

Tts 3:5---------------Holy Ghost+++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved

Jesus is the credit for giving the baptism with the Holy Ghost as the Holy Ghost does the washing of regeneration, and renewing. Not water baptism. Man nor any church do not get that credit for baptizing any one by water.

1Cor12:13-----------Spirit++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in the body

In these four 'born again' verses, both elements are present that leads to salvation.

Is Jesus Christ the Savior or not? Can He save us alone or are you denying His power to save those that believe in Him because they need water baptism for God to save any one that calls on Him to save them, even those who believe in His name? Think about what you are saying, brother.

Water baptism is an ordinance and not a requirement for salvation otherwise you have to explain why the Gentiles had received the promise of the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism as that was their born again of the Spirit moment when they were actually saved by believing in Him.

Ezra · Mar 7, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
The cleansing by the blood of Christ BEGINS at water baptism

NEGATORY it begins when saved called justification baptism follows

Water baptism is an ordinance and not a requirement for salvation otherwise you have to explain why the Gentiles had received the promise of the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism as that was their born again of the Spirit moment when they were actually saved by believing in Him.

exactly

mailmandan · Mar 8, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
Proper exegesis is words are to be understood in their literal, primary meaning unless something in the context states otherwise.

Nothing in context would lead one to believe that "water" in John 3:5 means water baptism. You are simply accommodating your theological bias. Jesus is talking about being born again from above, which has a spiritual application. Further into Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, we read 14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

*In John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 7:38-39 we are explicitly told that water is being used figuratively.

Which fits perfectly with water in John 3:5,15,16,18.

But there is nothing in the context of John 3 that water means anything other than literal water or Spirit means anything other than literal Spirit.

Literal water (H20) has no power to cleanse the heart from sin or cause one to become born again. This type of flawed exegesis leads to the heretical doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

A few verse later from v5 we have literal use of water again in John 5:23 in the immediate context.

John 5:23 or John 3:23? Verse 23 is not in the immediate context and it's not merely a few verses later. By the time we get all the way down to verse 23, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over and Jesus and his disciples have moved on and went out into the Judean countryside, so your argument is moot.

It is purely THEOLOGICAL BIAS, and nothing more, that has you trying to make water something other than water in John 3. You are still trying to change verses to make them conform to your theological bias.

Oh the irony. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. You on the other hand, distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

===================

I did a quick internet search and found the following on proper hermeneutics:

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/LillegardHermeneutics.pdf

(1) From the above link: "The literal or proper sense of a word or phrase must always be accepted as the intended sense, unlessthere is an absolute necessity for understanding it figuratively. This is a very important principle for which we have the most practical use, not only in the Bible, but universally. The proper sense has the right of way. Otherwise it would be impossible to be sure of anything."

As I have been saying a word is to be taken at its literal face value unless something in the context proves it is being used figuratively. Nothing in the context shows that either "spirit" or "water" is used figuratively so water refers to the literal water of baptism.

Jesus is talking about being born again from above, which is supernatural and spiritual, so water does not refer to literal water of baptism, yet Roman Catholics, Mormons and other works-salvationists would certainly agree with you and there is a reason for that. After considering the context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture, "water" in John 3:5 fits perfectly with "water" in John 4:10,14,7:37-39. Jesus uses the term "believes in Me" and the word "water" and qualifies what He means by it -- "living water." Jesus uses the term "believes in Him" in the context of John 3:5 and the word "water" not the term "baptism" in John 3:5 and since Jesus connects "living water" with receiving everlasting life in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39, it makes much more sense that water in John 3:5 is living water, rather than plain ordinary H20, which does not flow through our heart and has no power to cleanse the heart, yet living water does.

If you can make any word in any verse mean whatever you want to, then anyone can do the same thing to any word in any verse they choose and, as the link above says, "it would be impossible to be sure of anything".

Enough with your nonsense. It's time for you to stop fighting against the truth and finally accept the truth.

=================

There is nothing in the context of Ephesians 5:26 or Titus 3:5 that shows loutron means anything other than a literal laver of water, a baptismal font.

In Ephesians 5:26, we read "washing of water by the word," not by baptism. Water is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word (not through plain ordinary H20) which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).

In Ephesians 5:26, we see washing of water by the word (not by plain ordinary H20).

Also in 1 Peter 1:22, we read - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God (not through plain ordinary H20) which lives and abides forever.

You have given no proof the laver is only figurative other than your personal bias against the necessity of water baptism.

John 3:5-------------Spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in kingdom
Tts 3:5-----------Holy Ghost+++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved

I have given proof through properly harmonizing scripture with scripture, but you just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." *So once again, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is biased and unwarranted.

Nothing in either context shows that water/laver of water means something figurative.

I can clearly see that you are thoroughly indoctrinated into Campbellism and are unteachable.

Be sure to go back and meditate on post #210.

mailmandan · Mar 8, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
"with the washing of water — rather as Greek, “with,” or “by the laver of the water,” namely, the baptismal water. So it ought to be translated in Titus 3:5, the only other passage in the New Testament where it occurs"

AT Robertson even admits "The reference here seems to be to the baptismal bath (immersion) of water, “in the bath of water."

Vincent's Word Studies:
Eph 5:26 "washing is properly laver. Note the article, the laver, as something well known. There is no satisfactory evidence for the meaning washing. The allusion is to baptism."

Coffman Comemntary:
The use of the term laver is very fortunate, because the primary meaning of it, in context, is the baptistery, standing in a figure (metonymy) for baptism, for which alone a baptistery is used, and adequately translated as "washing." But please note the significance of this. It is a thundering, emphatic denial of the nonsense that "The washing referred to is wholly spiritual."[13] Is a baptistery needed for that?

But isn't baptism only a symbol? This has been shouted so loudly and so frequently and for so long that many believe it; but it is untrue. Lenski sets the matter straight. Commenting on the affirmation that "Man submits to baptism after the new birth to picture it forth to men," he has this:

Paul excludes this idea in a double way. "God saves us by means of the bath, etc. - this is the bath of regeneration. How can anyone think Paul would say, "God saved us by means of a picture of regeneration? Compare Jesus' own words in John 3:5.[16]
[(13) William Hendrickson, NT Commentary, Titus.]
[(16) RCH Lenski

Ellicott's Cmmentary:
Eph 5:26 "The true rendering is, that He might sanctify it, having cleansed it in the laver of the water in [the] Word. The reference in “the laver of the water” to baptism, is even more unquestionable than in “the laver of regeneration” of Titus 3:5. "

Tts 3:5 " The Greek should be rendered, “by the laver of regeneration,” &c. Then, by means of the laver of regeneration, &c, has God put us into a state of salvation. In other words, He has effected this by means of “baptism” (for the laver here can only signify the baptismal font, and is called the laver of regeneration because it is the vessel consecrated to the use of that sacrament), whereby, in its completeness as a sacrament, the new life in Christ is conveyed. Baptism, then, is the means through which we receive the saving grace of Christ; in its laver we are born again to a new life,"

Peake's Commentary:
Tts 3:5 "...but that God uses baptism as the act with which He associates cleansing from sin. This sacramental doctrine is apostolic (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16,Galatians 3:27. Ephesians 5:26, 1 Peter 3:21),"

Whedon's Commentary:
Eph 5:26 "Referring, no doubt, to baptism,.."
Tts 3:5 "The washing—Or bath; either the bathing vessel or the act, which could be performed secularly, either by plunging into the water or by the application of water to the person."

Trapp's Complete Commentary:
Tts 3:5 "He saved us by the washing of regeneration] So baptism saveth us, 1 Peter 3:21. It sacramentally saveth, by sealing up salvation to the believer: hence it is called the laver of regeneration."

Henry Alford:
by means of the laver (not washing as AV, which the word cannot mean by any possibility; but always a vessel or pool in which the washing takes place. Here (Tts 3:5) the baptismal font.
The New Testament for English Readers: Containing the Authorized Version ...

Johann Bengel
Tts 3:5 "Laver, not washing as the Eng version, but the place or vessel in which the washing was done..."
The critical English Testament : being an adaptation of Bengel's Gnomon, with numerous notes, showing the precise results of modern criticism and exegesis

John Calvin
Tts 3:5 "By the washing of regeneration I have no doubt that he alludes, at least, to baptism, and even I will not object to have this passage expounded as relating to baptism;..."

Alfred Plummer:
"washing of regeneration" or as the RV more exactly has it "laver of regeneration" signifies he Christian rite of baptism, ought to be regarded as beyond dispute."
The Expositor's Bible

John MacArthur
Tts 3:5 this word for 'washing' can signify the receptacle of washing itself.
The MacArthur Bible Handbook

We can argue "he said, they said" all day long, but ultimately, that is not going to settle the issue. You were not being completely honest when quoting AT Robertson (which doesn't surprise me). AT Robertson said there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6 , the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it. *I noticed that you conveniently left that part out.* AT Robertson also goes on to say - And renewing of the Holy Spirit (kai anakainwsew pneumato agiou). "And renewal by the Holy Spirit" (subjective genitive). For the late word anakainwsi, see Romans 12:2 . Here, as often, Paul has put the objective symbol before the reality. The Holy Spirit does the renewing, man submits to the baptism after the new birth to picture it forth to men. *So your argument is moot.*

I have a John MacArthur study Bible and from his notes on passages of scripture in regards to water baptism, he makes it clear that he does not hold to the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration, so "signify" the receptacle of washing itself does not help your argument. I've noticed in certain commentaries that we see the word, "signify" or "signified" which would explain that the washing of regeneration is signified, but not accomplished in the waters of baptism, which fits perfectly with the word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

Elihoenai · Mar 8, 2020

Why do they Baptise infants? Can infants Repent?

Matthew 3:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Eternally Grateful · Mar 8, 2020

mailmandan said:
So you clearly admit that you believe man is saved by works, contrary to (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) I clearly remember the preacher at the church of Christ that I attended several years ago teaching salvation by works (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism). Actually, water baptism was just about the only thing that Campbellite preacher talked about.

1 John 3:10 says - "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." Those who continue to remain in unbelief/fail to do God's will by believing in the Son will continue to be children of the devil.

Practicing righteousness and not sin is descriptive of children of God. (1 John 3:9,10) Trusting in works for salvation instead of trusting in Christ alone for salvation is remaining in impenitent, rebellious disobedience to God. It's called unbelief. (John 3:18)

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31) is not doing nothing.

You try to force scripture to "conform" to your biased church doctrine/indoctrination. As I already explained in post #198, In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the WICKED in Noah's day came in CONTACT WITH THE WATER and they all PERISHED.

Furthermore, the Greek word "antitupon" used in I Peter 3:21, is "an adjective, used as a noun," and denotes, in the NT, "a corresponding type," being "said of baptism." "The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms "a corresponding type," each setting forth the spiritual realities of the death, burial, and resurrection of believers in their identification with Christ. It is not a case of type and antitype, but of two types, that in Genesis, the type and baptism, the corresponding type." Noah was saved by the ark "through (via) water." Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ark. The ark is what both delivered and preserved them, the two aspects of "salvation." Their "salvation" was typical of the salvation promised to the Christian. It pictured it. So also does Christian baptism picture the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. *By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

Ya got him there

no further proof needed, he is trying to earn his salvation, since he is going this, he will be like a bad little sea Perch and tossed into the fire.

I pray he repents before it is too late

Eternally Grateful · Mar 8, 2020

Elihoenai said:
Why do they Baptise infants? Can infants Repent?

Matthew 3:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Amen

jesus will baptize us

we better chose the spirit baptism, otherwise we will received the fire baptism, (immersion in fire) their will be weeping and bashing of teeth.

mailmandan · Mar 8, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
Ya got him there

no further proof needed, he is trying to earn his salvation, since he is going this, he will be like a bad little sea Perch and tossed into the fire.

I pray he repents before it is too late

He is deeply indoctrinated into Campbellism and clearly needs to repent and believe the gospel. It would seem that he would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water. I at one time had temporarily attended the so called church of Christ several years ago and water baptism was just about the only thing the preacher of that church talked about. Campbellites clearly teach a "different" gospel of salvation by faith (their version of faith) + "water and works."

mailmandan · Mar 8, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
In writing to Christians, John said "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

The verb "cleanseth" is present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. The cleansing by the blood of Christ BEGINS at water baptism and as long as the Christian continues to walk in the light (unto death) this cleansing CONTINUES on. It is this ongoing, continuing cleansing that keeps the Christian "without spot and blameless" (2 Peter 3:14) with spot or wrinkle (Ephesians 5:27).

By your misinterpretation of scripture, you are teaching "type 2 works salvation."

The cleansing of the blood of Christ BEGINS when we believe in Him (Acts 10:43) and continues as only genuine Christians walk in the light. In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness and hates his brother" is descriptive of children of the devil.

No verse says this cleansing begins at faith only or upon saying a 'sinner's prayer'.

Acts 10:43 - ..everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts 15:9 - ..purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Elihoenai · Mar 9, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
Amen

jesus will baptize us

we better chose the spirit baptism, otherwise we will received the fire baptism, (immersion in fire) their will be weeping and bashing of teeth.

Matthew 3:13-17 King James Version (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

You must do Water Baptism, as Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ did. Only those that have been Baptised in Jordan, have been Water Baptised. If your Baptism was not done in Jordan, you have never been Baptised.

Eternally Grateful · Mar 9, 2020

Elihoenai said:
Matthew 3:13-17 King James Version (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

You must do Water Baptism, as Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ did. Only those that have been Baptised in Jordan, have been Water Baptised. If your Baptism was not done in Jordan, you have never been Baptised.

so we all have to go to Israel to be saved??

lol. man sorry, but thanks for the laugh.

Enow · Mar 9, 2020

Elihoenai said:
Matthew 3:13-17 King James Version (KJV)

You must do Water Baptism, as Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ did. Only those that have been Baptised in Jordan, have been Water Baptised. If your Baptism was not done in Jordan, you have never been Baptised.

Ask yourself why Jesus had never water baptized anyone but just Hid disciples as stated below?

John 4:1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

Could it be that Jesus will only baptize with the Holy Ghost as opposing how John the Baptist had been doing?

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Since no one was saved when Jesus was on earth at the time when only His disciples did the water baptism, then the born again moment can only occur after His ascension which was after His resurrection when sinners believes in Him as He baptizes believers with the Holy Ghost at their salvation moment.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? .... 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So being baptize by water does not save any one, nor does being water baptize in the Jordan saves any one, nor does only being baptized by His disciples in the Jordan saves any one, but all those who then believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead are saved.

Paul said the same thing for why he did not put an emphasis on water baptism when preaching the cross is how people believe in order to be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. .... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Elihoenai · Mar 10, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
so we all have to go to Israel to be saved??

lol. man sorry, but thanks for the laugh.

Yes, you must be Baptised in Jordan River to be Saved. You must follow Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ. The Billions that have not be Baptised in Jordan are not and have never been Saved.

Baptized in the Jordan River

Elihoenai · Mar 10, 2020

Enow said:
Ask yourself why Jesus had never water baptized anyone but just Hid disciples as stated below?

John 4:1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

Could it be that Jesus will only baptize with the Holy Ghost as opposing how John the Baptist had been doing?

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Since no one was saved when Jesus was on earth at the time when only His disciples did the water baptism, then the born again moment can only occur after His ascension which was after His resurrection when sinners believes in Him as He baptizes believers with the Holy Ghost at their salvation moment.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? .... 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So being baptize by water does not save any one, nor does being water baptize in the Jordan saves any one, nor does only being baptized by His disciples in the Jordan saves any one, but all those who then believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead are saved.

Paul said the same thing for why he did not put an emphasis on water baptism when preaching the cross is how people believe in order to be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. .... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

John 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You must be born of Water and the Spirit to be Born Again.

Eternally Grateful · Mar 10, 2020

Elihoenai said:
Yes, you must be Baptised in Jordan River to be Saved. You must follow Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ. The Billions that have not be Baptised in Jordan are not and have never been Saved.

Baptized in the Jordan River

ok.. Well thanks.. I will place you in my prayer list..

Good day

mailmandan · Mar 10, 2020

Just when I thought I heard it all.

Enow · Mar 10, 2020

Elihoenai said:
John 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You must be born of Water and the Spirit to be Born Again.

Then explain why water baptism was not mentioned when Jesus explained when and how a person is born again of the Spirit was accomplished after His ascension which will be after His crucifixion, which is done by believing in Him is how one is saved aka born again of the Spirit?

Let's read that again;

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So Jesus was not talking about water baptism but by how a Jew is born into the Kingdom of God by birth of a Jewish woman as that which is born of the flesh is flesh. So the born again of the Spirit has nothing to do with water in verse 5 because of verse 6. We read on...

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Nicodemus is now asking how one can be born again. Jesus is going to answer him.

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

So now Jesus tells Him when that born again of the Spirit will take place.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

It will happen after His ascension...

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

His ascension will happen after His crucifixion... ... and as to how one is born again of the Spirit is next.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

By believing in Him is how one is born again of the Spirit; no water baptism required. God is able to save all who believe in Him without water baptism.

Bobby Jo · Mar 10, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
In writing to Christians, John said "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." ...

Many "professing christians" can only handle milk, -- and even then with difficulty.

Bobby Jo

Elihoenai · Mar 11, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
ok.. Well thanks.. I will place you in my prayer list..

Good day

That sounds Noble and may well be.

2 Thessalonians 1:8

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Similar threads