Pretty sure you have me confused with someone else. I don't remember saying that.
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Harvest 1874
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Unfortunately my friend you are confused and are mixing the "The Two Salvations" together, "our common salvation" (Jude 3) salvation from the Adamic curse, applicable to all with that of the "great salvation" (Heb 2:3), "our salvation" (Rom 13:11) the special salvation of the church (1 Pet 1:10) the heavenly calling, the call to joint heirship with Christ.
Likewise your statement that no one is saved from the Adamic curse until first they believe the truth that Christ died the just for the unjust, that he by the grace of God tasted death for every man coming into the world is false.
For it is clearly stated, and pay special attention to the order,
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires (1) all men to be saved and (2) to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time (for the few that knowledge comes now during the Gospel age, but for the vast majority that knowledge will come in the next age, when the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth even as the waters cover the sea)." 1 Tim 2:3-6
Earburner
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Earburner
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Yes! Jesus is most surely a "ransom for all", but " without faith, it is impossible to please God" [His wrath]. Therefore, just because Jesus "tasted death for every man", that does NOT mean that they are saved, who without faith!!
Rom. 8[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
They are as much saved in Christ as they were condemned in Adam, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." (1 Cor 15:22), nevertheless its true that they must first believe and accept this redemption in order for it to be made applicable to themselves. This the majority will be given opportunity in the next age when the truth upon this matter has been made clear to all, when each individually has had the opportunity to come "unto a personal knowledge of the truth" (Rotherham), then the scripture will be fulfilled which states,
"No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jer 31:34)
Earburner
Well-Known Member
So in this age of God's grace, in order for one to receive His Grace of forgiveness and the gift of eternal life, they MUST believe, but in the age of your fabrication that is to come, after this age now, no one will be rquired to believe, in order to receive his forgiveness and the gift of eternal life?
Paul Christensen
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Where do you think the spirit of Jesus went when His body was three days in the tomb? Jesus told the penitent thief that "today you will be with Me in Paradise", this was three days before His resurrection, so Jesus and the thief must have gone together to Paradise.
When Jesus was ascended, He did go to heaven, because He went back into the presence of the Father to continue His ministry of intercession for the saints (not Catholic "Saints" by the way). No converted Christian will go to heaven they rise out of their graves at the sound of the angel's trumpet, and those who are alive will be caught up to meet the Lord. Then they will go to heaven, be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ, participate in the marriage supper of the lamb, and then accompany Christ when He returns in person to the world to establish His millennial kingdom of the throne of David in Jerusalem.
In the meantime, when believers die, their spirits go to Paradise (which is a temporary "holding" area for the spirits of those who were faithful to God. The spirits of unbelievers go to another less pleasant place to await their resurrection after the 1000 year reign of Christ, to go to the Great White Throne judgment of God to answer to Him why they rejected Christ when the gospel was offered to them.
Paul Christensen
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When Jesus rose from the dead, He rose as a human in a gloried body with flesh and bones. He said that in the same way as He rose from the dead, so will all those who are in Christ.
To say that Jesus did not rise as a flesh and bones person but as some spirit "phantom" is Gnostic heretical teaching.
BARNEY BRIGHT
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You believing that way is stating that the person who is Jesus didn't die, not only that you're saying there is no death. What you're talking about concerning that thief the scriptures wasn't saying that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise that exact day that Jesus was put to death because the scriptures show Jesus was dead for three days, are you denying this. You and others that believe like you do, that humans has some spirit person inside us that separates at death is stating death is just a doorway to another plain of existence and that there is no death really but that the person continues living somewhere in another plain of existence. Wasn't it Satan that said there is no death to Eve?
Paul Christensen
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So how do you explain Jesus saying, "Into your hands I commit my spirit"? And how do you explain Paul saying that no man can explain the nature of his spirit except the spirit within him in the same way that no one can know the mind of the Spirit except the Holy Spirit Himself?
Do you really believe that the human brain, which is a collection of molecules, has the ability to reason and express emotion? Are you saying that the mind and the brain are the same thing?
How about Paul saying that when he is absent from the body he will be present with the Lord? How did that happen if his body rotted in the grave?
And, at the transfiguration of Jesus, how did Moses and Elijah appear and talk with Him, and how did the spirit of Samuel come back when Saul consulted the witch of Endor? We know that it definitely was not a demon pretending to be Samuel because of what the spirit of Samuel said to Saul.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
SPIRIT:
The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons(Angels) (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.—Ex 35:21; Ps 104:29;Mt 12:43; Lu 11:13.
Breath; Breath of Life; Life-Force:
The account of the creation of man states that God formed man from the dust of the ground and proceeded to “blow [form of na·phachʹ] into his nostrils the breath [form of nesha·mahʹ] of life, and the man came to be a living soul [neʹphesh].” (Ge 2:7) Neʹphesh may be translated literally as “a breather,” that is, “a breathing creature,” either human or animal. Nesha·mahʹ is, in fact, used to mean “breathing thing [or creature]” and as such is used as a virtual synonym of neʹphesh, “soul.” (Compare De 20:16; Jos 10:39, 40; 11:11; 1Ki 15:29.) The record at Genesis 2:7 uses nesha·mahʹ in describing God’s causing Adam’s body to have life so that the man became “a living soul.” Other texts, however, show that more was involved than simple breathing of air, that is, more than the mere introduction of air into the lungs and its expulsion therefrom. Thus, at Genesis 7:22, in describing the destruction of human and animal life outside the ark at the time of the Flood, we read: “Everything in which the breath [form of nesha·mahʹ] of the force [or, “spirit” (ruʹach)] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” Nesha·mahʹ, “breath,” is thus directly associated or linked with ruʹach, which here describes the spirit, or life-force, that is active in all living creatures—human and animal souls.
The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. VI, p. 336) states: “Breath may be discerned only in movement [as in the movement of the chest or the expanding of the nostrils], and it is also a sign, condition and agent of life, which seems to be esp[ecially] tied up with breathing.” Hence, the nesha·mahʹ, or “breath,” is both the product of the ruʹach, or life-force, and also a principal means of sustaining that life-force in living creatures. It is known from scientific studies, for example, that life is present in every single cell of the body’s one hundred trillion cells and that, while thousands of millions of cells die each minute, constant reproduction of new living cells goes on. The life-force active in all the living cells is dependent upon the oxygen that breathing brings into the body, which oxygen is transported to all the cells by the bloodstream. Without oxygen some cells begin to die after several minutes, others after a longer period. While a person can go without breathing for a few minutes and still survive, without the life-force in his cells he is dead beyond all human ability to revive him.
When Jesus said, "into your hands I comment my spirit," it meant that God was being called upon to guard, or care for, that one’s life-force. (Compare Ac 7:59.) That there be an actual and literal transmission of some force from this planet to the heavenly presence of God is not necessarily required. Even as the fragrant scent of animal sacrifices was spoken of as being ‘smelled’ by God (Ge 8:20, 21), whereas such scent undoubtedly remained within earth’s atmosphere, so, too, God could ‘gather in,’ or could accept as entrusted to him, the spirit or life-force in a figurative sense, that is, without any literal transmission of vital force from earth. (Job 34:14; Lu 23:46) A person’s entrusting his spirit evidently means, then, that he places his hope in God for a future restoration of such life-force to himself through a resurrection.—Compare Nu 16:22; 27:16; Job 12:10; Ps 104:29, 30.
Concerning the Transfiguration Moses and Elijah were not literally there because they had been dead for centuries. The scriptures show us that Jesus himself said this was a vision. Stephen when being stoned to death said he saw God with Jesus beside him. Did Stephen literally see God? No, He saw a vision.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Paul Chritensen said:
Do you really believe that the human brain, which is a collection of molecules, has the ability to reason and express emotion? Are you saying that the mind and the brain are the same thing?[/Quote\]
Yes Paul, I believe that The True God created us with a brain that can reason and express emotions.
MIND
A faculty of the brain with which we gather information, reason, and draw conclusions. “Mind” is rendered from several related Greek words expressing such attributes of the mind as thinking faculties, intellectual capacity, mental perception, intelligence, reason, thought, intention, remembrance, mental state or view, opinion, and mental inclination, attitude, or powers. Though, at times, in various translations the word “mind” is used, in the same instances other translations employ the above descriptive and specific terms. In the Hebrew text, the words for “remember” and “consider” may be translated in certain places by such expressions as “keep in mind” and “have in mind.” In the Hebrew Scriptures, “mind” appears in some versions as a rendering of the Hebrew words that are, literally and properly, “heart,” “soul,” and “spirit.”—Compare De 4:39; 2Ki 9:15, Ro; Eze 20:32, JB
Concerning the so called spirit of Samuel. Isn't it true at this time in Saul life God refused to give him any kind of communication, Concerning what would happen of the outcome of a battle because of Saul unrighteousness or unfaithfulness? Isn't it also true that trying to engage in communication with the dead is forbidden and a sin and isn't a witch a servant of Satan or demons? Isn't it true that since God wouldn't communicate to Saul the outcome of this battle he most certainly can't be forced to tell Saul anything through one of his faithful prophets and most certainly would not use a means of communication that belonged to Satan and his demons. The witch described the person she saw and Saul assumed it was the prophet Samuel. That doesn't mean it was the prophet Samuel but most likely a demon pretending to be Samuel. Demons are deceivers I wouldn't put it past a demon to do something deceitful like that. So it wasn't the Prophet Samuel that the witch Saw but most likely it was a demon. You know that God forbids us to communicate with dead through any kind of medium including a witch, but here you're saying God allows one of his faithful servants (Samuel) be associated with what God says is forbidden to his servants. Doesn't that seem a little hypocritical to you for God to say to his Servants that such an act of consulting the dead which would be doing what is displeasing to The True God then allow his faithful servant Samuel to associate with it, I don't think so. If God doesn't approve of something if he considers it unrighteous and a sin to associate with something, you honestly think God associates with such things.
Do you really believe that the human brain, which is a collection of molecules, has the ability to reason and express emotion? Are you saying that the mind and the brain are the same thing?[/Quote\]
Yes Paul, I believe that The True God created us with a brain that can reason and express emotions.
MIND
A faculty of the brain with which we gather information, reason, and draw conclusions. “Mind” is rendered from several related Greek words expressing such attributes of the mind as thinking faculties, intellectual capacity, mental perception, intelligence, reason, thought, intention, remembrance, mental state or view, opinion, and mental inclination, attitude, or powers. Though, at times, in various translations the word “mind” is used, in the same instances other translations employ the above descriptive and specific terms. In the Hebrew text, the words for “remember” and “consider” may be translated in certain places by such expressions as “keep in mind” and “have in mind.” In the Hebrew Scriptures, “mind” appears in some versions as a rendering of the Hebrew words that are, literally and properly, “heart,” “soul,” and “spirit.”—Compare De 4:39; 2Ki 9:15, Ro; Eze 20:32, JB
Concerning the so called spirit of Samuel. Isn't it true at this time in Saul life God refused to give him any kind of communication, Concerning what would happen of the outcome of a battle because of Saul unrighteousness or unfaithfulness? Isn't it also true that trying to engage in communication with the dead is forbidden and a sin and isn't a witch a servant of Satan or demons? Isn't it true that since God wouldn't communicate to Saul the outcome of this battle he most certainly can't be forced to tell Saul anything through one of his faithful prophets and most certainly would not use a means of communication that belonged to Satan and his demons. The witch described the person she saw and Saul assumed it was the prophet Samuel. That doesn't mean it was the prophet Samuel but most likely a demon pretending to be Samuel. Demons are deceivers I wouldn't put it past a demon to do something deceitful like that. So it wasn't the Prophet Samuel that the witch Saw but most likely it was a demon. You know that God forbids us to communicate with dead through any kind of medium including a witch, but here you're saying God allows one of his faithful servants (Samuel) be associated with what God says is forbidden to his servants. Doesn't that seem a little hypocritical to you for God to say to his Servants that such an act of consulting the dead which would be doing what is displeasing to The True God then allow his faithful servant Samuel to associate with it, I don't think so. If God doesn't approve of something if he considers it unrighteous and a sin to associate with something, you honestly think God associates with such things.
Paul Christensen
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If all else fails, just read the Bible and believe what it says without adding personal theory to try and explain it.
BARNEY BRIGHT
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What, something wrong withh the definition of Hebrew and Greek words and how they're used in the scriptures? See when you read the scriptures you have to do research in the scriptures to see how the scriptures themselves make use of such words as spirit and soul etc. You against that, are you? See I do believe in how the scriptures use these words. Like in the scriptures it tells us that the spirit we have is the same spirit that animals have. People such as you who believes as you do will continue to call God a liar because according to your belief and those who believe as you do, you say the person doesn't die but instead death is just another doorway to another plain of existence. You agree With the serpent who told Eve she wouldn't die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Well, the person Eve as well as Adam died and those persons are still dead, of course since you believe that the spirit is what houses our emotions, and reasoning abilities therefore our thoughts and memories and the brain is just a lump of flesh that really doesn't do anything, you believe that all who have passed on are still living literally somewhere, heaven, paradise wherever. That there is no death.
Paul Christensen
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Kicking me instead of the ball does not convince me of your opinion. If you have to discredit me to prove your point, then your argument is very weak! How about getting your mind off me, and presenting some Scriptural support for your theology. Then we can have a respectful, meaningful discussion, instead of some tit for tat trashing of my opinion without offering substantive evidence to disprove it.
BARNEY BRIGHT
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Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
I would suggest you go back and read our statement again as it is apparent you missed the part about how they too must believe and accept the redemption which is in Christ Jesus alone. As for the idea that we have "fabricated" the age to come, and the times of restitution of all things, for that you will need to take up your bible and read for yourself.
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