OSAS beginning ?

FHII · Mar 8, 2020

Dcopymope said:
I'd reckon that there wouldn't be any strings for God to pull to start with if we aren't free moral agents. This is not even counting the justification for the prophesied great white throne judgement. We are told to believe that a just God will decide who gets to live and die forever based on their works, who had no control over the moral decisions they made in their entire lives to start with. Does that sound like justice to you, to be held accountable for something you have no control over?

On the surface, it would seem so. But our works won't help us. Good or bad. We are judged by our faith, not works.

If we are judged by our works (all of which are filthy rags, which by interpretation is a menstrual rag) we are all lost. On the flip side, we are called to do "good works" which I believe to be a code word, in a sense. That is, going God's work. There is none good but one, that is, God.

God isn't looking at our moral decisions or our works. He's looking at our faith.

Dcopymope · Mar 8, 2020

FHII said:
On the surface, it would seem so. But our works won't help us. Good or bad. We are judged by our faith, not works.

If we are judged by our works (all of which are filthy rags, which by interpretation is a menstrual rag) we are all lost. On the flip side, we are called to do "good works" which I believe to be a code word, in a sense. That is, going God's work. There is none good but one, that is, God.

God isn't looking at our moral decisions or our works. He's looking at our faith.

Well we won't be judged according our works, but it also clearly states that the world will be judged according to their works. If God already determined that our works are nothing but filthy rags, why bother with this show trial, this pretense called the "great white throne judgement" when he could just skip that joke, toss all of them in the lake of fire like he will with Satan, and call it a day? If they have no shot at all, then what is prophesied to occur is no real "judgement" at all, since my fate being hell has already been sealed to start with.

Eternally Grateful · Mar 9, 2020

Osas May be a reformed tenent

but eternal security of the soul is a biblical fact,

I suggest people stop trying to refute calvinism (a doctrine I really do not like myself) and start actually studying the word laying aside our biases

FHII · Mar 9, 2020

Dcopymope said:
Well we won't be judged according our works, but it also clearly states that the world will be judged according to their works

Yes, that is true. The bottom line is that if you accept the covenant of Grace through faith, you will not be judged by your works of the flesh.

Make no mistake: all (even the faithful) will be judged. The faithful are not going to be judged at the white throne (see Rev 20:4). Judgment for them is happening now (at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17).

Dcopymope said:
If God already determined that our works are nothing but filthy rags, why bother with this show trial, this pretense called the "great white throne judgement" when he could just skip that joke, toss all of them in the lake of fire like he will with Satan, and call it a day

You'd have to take that up with God, but I suspect it's because he is not unjust. He's going to compare your book to the book of Life. (Rev 20:12). Without Grace, even the faithful would fail. Instead, the faithful are on the side of the judging.

Dcopymope said:
If they have no shot at all, then what is prophesied to occur is no real "judgement" at all, since my fate being hell has already been sealed to start with.

Right! But it is a pretty provocative warning. One that may jolt you to understanding.

Again, God doesn't tell us what side he sees us on. He doesn't give diplomas or hall of fame rings before we finish. There are two ways you can handle it: 1. You can give up in despare, or 2. You can be encouraged to be more faithful.

Faith does take work, and I know that sounds like a contradiction. It doesn't take works or the flesh, though you may be compelled to do them. It is a work of believing on him every day and increasing your faith and understanding his ways. It takes applying them in your life.

I understand that the carnal mind doesn't comprehend it. And that isn't meant to be a jab at anyone. We all have a carnal mind, but also a spiritual one. The spiritual mind must be strengthened to overpower and rule over the carnal mind. Myself included. It's true for Paul, John and Peter, the rest of the Apostles... All the way down to publicans and harlots. In other words, all that are imprisoned in flesh!

Dcopymope · Mar 9, 2020

FHII said:
Yes, that is true. The bottom line is that if you accept the covenant of Grace through faith, you will not be judged by your works of the flesh.

Make no mistake: all (even the faithful) will be judged. The faithful are not going to be judged at the white throne (see Rev 20:4). Judgment for them is happening now (at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17).

You'd have to take that up with God, but I suspect it's because he is not unjust. He's going to compare your book to the book of Life. (Rev 20:12). Without Grace, even the faithful would fail. Instead, the faithful are on the side of the judging.

Right! But it is a pretty provocative warning. One that may jolt you to understanding.

Again, God doesn't tell us what side he sees us on. He doesn't give diplomas or hall of fame rings before we finish. There are two ways you can handle it: 1. You can give up in despare, or 2. You can be encouraged to be more faithful.

Faith does take work, and I know that sounds like a contradiction. It doesn't take works or the flesh, though you may be compelled to do them. It is a work of believing on him every day and increasing your faith and understanding his ways. It takes applying them in your life.

I understand that the carnal mind doesn't comprehend it. And that isn't meant to be a jab at anyone. We all have a carnal mind, but also a spiritual one. The spiritual mind must be strengthened to overpower and rule over the carnal mind. Myself included. It's true for Paul, John and Peter, the rest of the Apostles... All the way down to publicans and harlots. In other words, all that are imprisoned in flesh!

When people say they are "saved by the blood of Jesus", they often can't define what that means in prophecy. The way I understand it, if you claim to be "saved", yet you are still getting judged "according to your works" like the common atheist will, in danger of getting tossed in the fire, then you were never "saved" in the first place. How Gods "justice" is portrayed by many Christians towards non-believers, especially its portrayal by these "hell fire" preachers, is where the problem occurs, making his "judgement" look more like that of a Kangaroo court than anything.

FHII · Mar 9, 2020

Dcopymope said:
When people say they are "saved by the blood of Jesus", they often can't define what that means in prophecy.

Yea maybe... But that doesn't make it false. It's not an easy concept to grasp. But that doesn't make it false.

Dcopymope said:
The way I understand it, if you claim to be "saved", yet you are still getting judged "according to your works" like the common atheist will, in danger of getting tossed in the fire, then you were never "saved" in the first place.

Well, we aren't. We are not judged according to our works of the flesh. Our nice works don't bring us closer and our bad one's don't put us farther. Athiests have no chance in their current state of understanding that.

I am all for being a descent person, but Grace ain't got anything to do with that.

It's a mind boggling concept; I agree! But that's the way it is.

It's amazing that God only wants faith, yet so many reject that notion. It's almost comical! God asks for little yet the carnal mind rejects it.

Dcopymope · Mar 9, 2020

FHII said:
Yea maybe... But that doesn't make it false. It's not an easy concept to grasp. But that doesn't make it false.

Well, we aren't. We are not judged according to our works of the flesh. Our nice works don't bring us closer and our bad one's don't put us farther. Athiests have no chance in their current state of understanding that.

I am all for being a descent person, but Grace ain't got anything to do with that.

It's a mind boggling concept; I agree! But that's the way it is.

It's amazing that God only wants faith, yet so many reject that notion. It's almost comical! God asks for little yet the carnal mind rejects it.

From my understanding, this isn't so much about our works bringing us closer to God or farther from him, but more about God, not being the despot he is often portrayed to be by "believers", not wishing that anyone should perish, wanting all to come to repentance. However, you and I know as well as God that this is a pipe dream. It will never happen, nor can it possibly happen, because for one, "repentance" doesn't account for those born before Jesus walked the earth, who never could have possibly heard of the gospel. The great white throne judgement however is meant to account for them all.

FHII · Mar 9, 2020

Dcopymope said:
but more about God, not being the despot he is often portrayed to be by "believers", not wishing that anyone should perish, wanting all to come to repentance.

Well that comes from 2 Peter 3:9 and is almost never quoted in proper context. It's not speaking of all human beings. It's speaking to "us-ward". Thus, Peter is not speaking about all humans, but to the Body of Christ.

The entire human race has an invitation, but the promises are only for the chosen.

Jesus said, " Many are called, but few are chosen". He did not say all are called. And to be chosen means we don't really have a part in the chosing. God does the chosing.

With this knowledge, we have the opportunity to manifest as the chosen.

FHII · Mar 9, 2020

Dcopymope said:
"repentance" doesn't account for those born before Jesus walked the earth, who never could have possibly heard of the gospel.

That has actually already been dealt with. The OT saints, including David and Abraham, were preached to while they were in hell, or if it's more palatable to you, purgatory or the heart of the earth. They rose with Jesus (Matt 27:52)

FHII · Mar 9, 2020

Dcopymope said:
The great white throne judgement however is meant to account for them all

Again, God's people aren't going to be judged at the white throne. They will be judging. That is, as a witness and they don't even have to open their mouth to do so.

Read Rev 20:4. Their testimony is that they put God first. God can say, "Well, these folks believed and did it! Why couldn't you?". And I believe it will be a diverse crowd! Rich people, poor people, men, women, black people, white people, Asians, homosexuals, straight people, intelligent people, low intelligent people... He's going to have a witness for every situation to show it can be done.

Paul Christensen · Mar 9, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
It appears OSAS has its origin in the garden of Eden where God told Adam and Eve "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." But Satan told Adam and Eve "Ye shall not surely die:"

Sin/disobedience/unrighteousness to God is the reason men are lost and as long as man continues impenitently in sin/disobedience/unrighteousness he shall be lost. The only solution to sin/disobedience/unrighteousness is obedience to God's will. And those that CONDITIONALLY continue in obedience/doing God's righteousness shall be saved. Salvation has always been conditional upon man's obedience and never UNconditional regardless of what man does.

Under the OT those that conditionally obeyed God will be the ones saved the rest will be lost. Though the Jews were God's chosen, elect people only the small remnant that conditionally obeyed God will be saved while the rest were broken off, cast away (Romans 11:20-22), no OSAS for them. But those broken off could be graffed in again IF they would not abide in sin but repent and turn to CONDITIONALLY obeying God (Romans 11:23).

Though Gentiles were graffed in it was not UNCONDITIONAL "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Salvation totally, completely CONDITIONAL in continuing doing God's will.

John 8:31 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed."

Acts 13:43 "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."

Acts 14:22 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Col 1:22-23 "...to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

A genuinely converted believer cannot lose his salvation unless he totally rejects Christ and declares himself an atheist.

The person who believes that a converted believer (as apart from someone who has just a mere profession of Christianity), can be lost through sinful behaviour caused through the weakness of his flesh, does not believe in the finished work of Christ on the cross and so believes that Christ is just a partial Saviour and the work of Justification is not yet finished, but must be upheld by perfect observance of the moral law.

Ezra · Mar 9, 2020

Bible_Gazer said:
Once saved always saved
Has it always existed from the beginning of mankind ?
Did the OT saints have OSAS covering ?

I don't really know how the OSAS believers think on this.
Just thought they believed it happened after Jesus came.
That Jesus changed everything about salvation.

technology and theology speaking we are only saved once

i just kicked over the golden cow of religion lol after salvation comes repentance . it's actually silly to debate/argue can you or can you not

Dcopymope · Mar 9, 2020

FHII said:
That has actually already been dealt with. The OT saints, including David and Abraham, were preached to while they were in hell, or if it's more palatable to you, purgatory or the heart of the earth. They rose with Jesus (Matt 27:52)

David rose with Jesus? That's not what Peter said.

(Acts 2:25-29) "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: {26} Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: {27} Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. {28} Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. {29} Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Also, the scripture you cite speaks nothing of Jesus preaching in "hell". Where are the scriptures explicitly stating such a thing?

FHII · Mar 9, 2020

Dcopymope said:
David rose with Jesus? That's not what Peter said.

I am very familiar with Acts 2. I can quote the whole sermon of Peter from memory. Literally... I kid you not. But no, I don't have an answer for that other than a verse I quoted earlier which says many of the saints rose with him (Matt 27:52).

Now Peter did say David is not ascended. But he also said Jesus would make his enemy (death) his footstool. That's when he would ascend.

Dcopymope said:
Also, the scripture you cite speaks nothing of Jesus preaching in "hell". Where are the scriptures explicitly stating such a thing?

Eph 4:9, 1 Peter 3:19, 1 Peter 4:6. Furthermore, Abraham was in hell in a parable Jesus gave yet in a different part waiting deliverance. Abe ain't in hell now...

Ezra · Mar 9, 2020

Anthony D'Arienzo said:
Osas is a false teaching . This is the more biblical option.

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

calvinist doctrine

Dcopymope · Mar 9, 2020

FHII said:
I am very familiar with Acts 2. I can quote the whole sermon of Peter from memory. Literally... I kid you not. But no, I don't have an answer for that other than a verse I quoted earlier which says many of the saints rose with him (Matt 27:52).

Now Peter did say David is not ascended. But he also said Jesus would make his enemy (death) his footstool. That's when he would ascend.

Eph 4:9, 1 Peter 3:19, 1 Peter 4:6. Furthermore, Abraham was in hell in a parable Jesus gave yet in a different part waiting deliverance. Abe ain't in hell now...

(1 Peter 3:18-20) "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

In other words, by the power of the spirit, the holy spirit that "quickened" Jesus, he preached to those who lived during the days of Noah, not in "hell", but through Noah at the time, and we know that Noah was preaching.

(2 Peter 2:4-5) "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; {5} And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"

Many believe that the "spirits in prison" Noah preached to that Peter refers to are indeed the "angels that sinned" at the time, who are in "chains of darkness". It sounds eerily similar to the scripture below, so this is likely the case.

(Jude 1:6) "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

FHII · Mar 9, 2020

Dcopymope said:
In other words, by the power of the spirit, the holy spirit that "quickened" Jesus, he preached to those who lived during the days of Noah, not in "hell", but through Noah at the time, and we know that Noah was preaching.

Many believe that the "spirits in prison" Noah preached to that Peter refers to are indeed the "angels that sinned" at the time, who are in "chains of darkness". It sounds eerily similar to the scripture below, so this is likely the case.

No, many don't believe that. What Noah preached was important, but no... This isn't all about what Noah preached.

I gave you verses, accept them or dismiss them. I care not.

Anthony D'Arienzo · Mar 9, 2020

Ezra said:
calvinist doctrine

Biblical teaching believed by Calvinists.

Dcopymope · Mar 9, 2020

FHII said:
No, many don't believe that. What Noah preached was important, but no... This isn't all about what Noah preached.

I gave you verses, accept them or dismiss them. I care not.

Well, why are you here if you don't care one way or the other? That other scripture you cited, 1 Peter 4:6, in context continues the narrative Peter gave of Jesus preaching to them that have died through Noah at the time, to be "saved" from judgement, inviting any who would be saved, to be saved, to find grace in the eyes of God, just like he did. Just like Noah and crew was saved by the water, Peter uses that as an example of being saved by water baptism through the resurrection of Jesus. There isn't nearly enough there that even implies Jesus preached to the dead in "hell".

(1 Peter 3:18-22) "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. {21} The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: {22} Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

Enoch111 · Mar 9, 2020

Bible_Gazer said:
Has it always existed from the beginning of mankind ?

Yes it has. Salvation is a GIFT of God's grace.

OSAS beginning ?

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