intentional sins?
- Thread starter Randy Kluth
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If you don't know them, then you either don't know your Bible or you don't interpret Paul's concept of grace the same way others do. Christ's empowerment of Paul is what kept his sinful flesh in a state of submission. He considered his flesh dead to sin as far as Christ's redemption. But until we die, we continue to live in the sinful flesh, and must rely on Christ's strength to stay on top of it.
We do have a new nature, enabling us to regularly draw upon the grace of Christ. And it is natural to hold onto the grace of Christ. But that doesn't mean we don't live in the flesh still, and have to combat our lower nature.
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1 Cor 15.9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
2 Cor 3.4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
2 Cor 11.30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
Philipp 3.12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Rom 7.22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
There is nobody perfect but Jesus in this life. If there was, he or she wouldn't need Jesus at all. And if Paul wasn't perfect, he focused on the strength that Christ gave him in his acknowledged weakness. No sense for Paul to go around confessing his failures. His emphasis was on Christ empowering him to overcome his sinful tendencies as an example to us as to what we should be focusing on.
Clearly, if Paul had to keep telling newer Christians that they should stop sinning, then it is something we're all saddled with and have to stay on top of.
1 Cor 15.10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
We do receive the gift of Eternal Life and the New Nature for free--we don't work for it. But once chosen, we have to work to keep our lower nature subdued. That is a daily job.
I guess Christ simply has insufficient grace for some...
Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Maybe HE ran out...
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
Lets hope not, because that means his position as the most high is finite!!!..........Really, the idea that his grace is finite is ridiculous in light of scriptures like this. This is why I love revelation, because you know, as the book is titled, it reveals quite a bit about God. So, we are told by certain characters that Gods grace is finite, yet he is the unlimited, infinite source of water for the river and the tree of life. How can this be? They can't have it both ways, this idea that he can "run out" of anything.
The kjv makes it a little bit clearer, while I can also exegete the proper meaning from the version you quoted it out of:
1Co 15:10, But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
This is referring to the fact that Paul lived out his life in more suffering than the other apostles so that the works of scripture that developed out of his life were more than what the other apostles produced as the result of their respective sufferings.
Paul laboured more abundantly than they all...it was a labour of love in seeking to win lost souls to Jesus (see 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and not the working and striving to live by the Spirit, that this is speaking of.
It even bears this out when you go to Colossians 1:29; which is another verse that speaks of striving. There it is not speaking of striving to live the Christian life better; but striving to bring others into a place of sanctification and salvation.
Behold
Well-Known Member
There is no sin "In Christ".
We , the born again, are "in Christ".
Sin, ours, died on the cross with Jesus.
Paul teaches that what we do, that USE to be defined as Sin, is now a "work of the flesh".
Before we were saved, the Law had dominion...it had the authority over an unbeliever to define them as a SINNER.
After we are born again, we are "no longer under the Law, but UNDER GRACE".
Grace REDEFINES us, the born gain, according to GOD's perspective of us.
Grace defines us as.
Child of God
Child of the Light
Son-Daughter of God
Bride of Christ
Brethren
Redeemed
Born again
Not a "sinner".
You're missing the part about "grace," which is what I was pointing to. Paul did not credit his work with achieving grace to overcome sin. Rather, he worked *in the grace* that Christ provided.
And it was due to God's grace given to him, coming as a free gift, that enabled him to *subdue his lower nature.* Part of the work he labored to do in the ministry involved accessing God's grace, and this implies he had to regularly make use of that grace to keep his sin tendencies under his feet.
Paul said elsewhere that he was concerned lest his labor in the ministry be disqualified, if he did not work to keep the grace of Christ up front, and his lower nature subdued.
1 Cor 9.24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I know them, I just wanted you to give them so I could teach you something you are not seeing. But we can end it here if you like.
I would say that this passage (1 Corinthians 15:10) does not teach that grace makes us work to subdue our lower nature; while it may in fact be a reality.
What this passage teaches is that the grace of our Lord motivated Paul to be the penner of more holy scripture than all of the other apostles because that holy scripture was the fruit of his life of labouring in the Lord for the souls of lost men.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Teach me, fine. But teach me the truth. So far we've not been in agreement. Maybe we need to take a second look at where we disagree? But that should become more clear over time. Ultimately, we should come closer together on our views because we believe the same Bible and have the same God. It's not about you or me, but about God's truth.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Do you believe Jesus was full of unmerited favor and truth?
Or full of the power of God and truth?
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree, but a child of God does not do works of the flesh either, for those who fulfill the lusts of the flesh shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. The reason is because of grace - the power of God in us.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Weren't you the one that showed me this verse I had been searching for?
Philippians 3:15-16
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
I completely agree with you--it does not teach this as a theology. But I quote it because it becomes clear that Paul is relying on the concept of human effort coming *through grace.* Paul cannot fight to subdue his body, to repress sin, unless he is relying, continuously, on the grace of Christ.
1 Cor 9.24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Paul here clearly is exercising *human effort,* albeit not independent of God's grace. He is in fact utilizing God's grace in order to apply his own effort, to subdue the lower nature. He is making his body a "slave" to Christ's grace, so that the righteousness of Christ supersedes the tendency to engage in sin.
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