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ReChoired

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And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)
Heaven is eternal, no doubt, for God Himself is Eternal Life, and the redeemed will be indwelt by God throughout eternity, but the wicked are not so indwelt, but are found to be outside of God, rather than abiding in God. And since they are found outside of God, they are found outside of eternal life.

You believe in "eternal salvation", but that doesn't mean being (constantly) "saved", does it.
How then are the wicked to have eternal existence?

As shown, the words, of Revelation 20:10, "even for ever and ever", are Koine Greek, "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων", which when seen in their context, locally and globally through the scripture [KJB], do not always mean eternal, but can mean limited in time, and can even deal with distance, or even spacial ["world"].
Can an "αιων" [aiwn, aeon, in either time, distance or space] come to an end? Yes, even as Paul shows in Hebrews:

Hebrew 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrew 9:26 KJB - επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται​

Notice, "end of the world [aeon]". Notice again:

Titus 2:12 KJB - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Titus 2:12 KJB - παιδευουσα ημας ινα αρνησαμενοι την ασεβειαν και τας κοσμικας επιθυμιας σωφρονως και δικαιως και ευσεβως ζησωμεν εν τω νυν αιωνι

Notice, "in this present world [aeon]", which indicates that there is an end to the current "world", or existence, and another "world" [aeon], or existence, to follow after it. Thus and "aeon" can come to an end, and is not necessarily eternal. See also "since the world began", "before this world", "this present evil world", "this world", in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, Matthew 13:39-40 (2), Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20, Mark 4:19, Mark 10:30, Luke 1:70, Luke 16:8, Luke 18:30, Luke 20:34-35 (2), John 9:32, Acts 3:21, Acts 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (4), 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 6:12, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Timothy 4:10, Tit 2:12, Hebrews 6:5, Hebrews 9:26; and etc. We now see that "aeon's" can begin, and end, and are not always ongoing without ceasing, and thus context always determines the length, distance, existence, etc.

Notice how the Bible uses the word "for ever":

Jonah 2:6 KJB - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah 2:6 (2:7) (so-called) LXX - κατέβην εἰς γῆν, ἧς οἱ μοχλοὶ αὐτῆς κάτοχοι αἰώνιοι, καὶ ἀναβήτω φθορὰ ζωῆς μου, κύριε ὁ θεός μου.​

In both distance and time, it is impossible for the word "for ever" in Jonah to be eternal, or without end. Not only does earth have limited space [thus "ends of the earth", dry land is earth, see Genesis 1], but Jonah was only 3 days and 3 nights, timewise, in the belly:

Jonah 1:17 KJB - Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.​

Therefore, in either care, "for ever" is limited, in this instance, in distance and time.

In Deuteronomy 23:3 KJB, “forever” means 10 generations. It can also mean “as long as he lives,” or “to death.”; thus see 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14 KJB.

The redeemed will have eternal life, because Jesus is eternal life, but the wicked will never have eternal existence:

Psalms 21:4 KJB - He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

Ecclesiastes 8:13 KJB - But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.​

Iniquity must be purged and cleansed from the universe, and it will not happen until the wicked cease to be:

Isaiah 22:14 KJB - And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

Psalms 37:10 KJB - For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.​

When will these verses be fulfilled in your understanding:

Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

The example of the burning bush, is the perfect example of Christ Jesus in us [the redeemed] in type. It is not an example of how the wicked will be, since Christ Jesus is not in them:

Penitently redeemed:

John 14:20 KJB - At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 15:4 KJB Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Exodus 3:2 KJB - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.​

Stubbornly wicked:

John 5:38 KJB - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

John 8:37 KJB - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 5:42 KJB - But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Exodus 33:5 KJB - For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.​

You do not know it, but you are actually blaspheming God's very name an character by teaching what you teach. Think carefully about it, please.

Notice the contrast between Exodus 3:2, with Christ Jesus in the midst of the bush, and the bush was "not consumed", and then see Exodus 33:5, wherein the peoples did not have Christ Jesus abiding within, and were about to be totally "consumed".

Did the global flood of Noah kill all of the finally impentient outside of the Ark in one single instant of time?, or was there not rather various lengths of time, and degrees of injuries sustained throughout, that people continued to receive and live through, until all were finally destroyed from the face of the earth? with some instantly perishing, and others taking days to finally die either by beast, other men attempting to escape their doom fighting for the highest ground, starvation, thirst, hurling and heaving earth, or finally drown beneath the black depths ...

In 2 Peter 2:5 [see also 2 Peter 3:6] KJB, Peter says "flood upon the world", yet in the koine Greek, it is "κατακλυσμον κοσμω", a 'cosmic cataclysm'. Such devastation and destruction as has never been known, and will never again be known [by water], but will again be by fire. If one were to read Genesis 7-8 KJB carefully they will see that it took some time for all [human-kind] outside of the ark to finally perish, and not all perished at the same time. The wages for sin is death, even from Genesis 2:17 KJB, but the final punishment, being death, is preceded by terrors, anguish, torment, all limited and depending upon the deeds done in the body [Romans 2:6; Jude 1:15 KJB], as it is written.

So to die of thirst in such a cataclysm takes several days, while being crushed by a large piece of exploded land, or tree, or debris is near instantaneous. Each is just. Each received the length of time in torment, suffering, that was due, and both received the final end, death.

Yes, the "punishment" is indeed "eternal". For the "wages of sin is death", that being the "second death".

The "torment", or the "suffering" unto that death, is limited. The suffering or torment is not eternal, as I have shown in the case of Jesus Christ, who took upon Himself the sins of the whole world. His suffering though tremendous, more than any other could endure [for just our own sins would crush us], and yet, it was limited. Hence the phrase, "once suffered", meaning it is in the past, and is over and done with, thus it was limited in time.
 

ReChoired

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And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)
What you quoted was a single text Revelation 20:10, out of context, and didn't even biblically define the words therein, as I did, and as such you have a pretext (an agenda, an apriori that you impose upon the words, rather than define them by scripture and line upon line).

Then, others generally cite another text, Revelation 14:11, which speaks of the smoke going up (distance, and upward motion) "for ever and ever", and doesn't deal with time.

Ok, the "smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever". This does not deal with 'time', but 'distance' [height, ascending up to heaven]. The smoke goes "up" forever and ever. In otherwords, up and out of sight into the stratosphere.:

For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isaiah 34:8

And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. Isaiah 34:9

It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. Isaiah 34:10​

See:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11​

See also:

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Revelation 18:9

And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Revelation 18:14

And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! Revelation 18:18

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Revelation 18:21

And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Revelation 18:22

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. Revelation 18:23

And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. Revelation 19:3​

We may also directly compare to Sodom and Gomorrah, which are set forth as an example of what comes in the end, total destruction, leaving nothing, but ashes and smoke rising into the sky...:

And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. Genesis 19:28

Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:9

As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. Jeremiah 49:18

As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. Jeremiah 50:40

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Luke 17:29

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:6

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7​

Sodom and Gomorrah [peoples and citizens, items, animals, etc] are not still burning, nor even still smoking, they are ashes and dust, and no more for they were punished with the fire of God completely destroying them.

We may also compare to the destruction of the city of Ai:

And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers. Joshua 8:20

And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai. Joshua 8:21​

We may also compare in the book of Judges:

Now there was an appointed sign between the men of Israel and the liers in wait, that they should make a great flame with smoke rise up out of the city. Judges 20:38

But when the flame began to arise up out of the city with a pillar of smoke, the Benjamites looked behind them, and, behold, the flame of the city ascended up to heaven. Judges 20:40​

Elsewhere:

For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke. Isaiah 9:18

We may also compare to the smoke upon Mt. Sinai, where God Himself descended and touched that mountain with His own feet:

And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18​
 

Enoch111

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You can view Hell and Mr Fudge here...
We do not need a lengthy justification for any heresy. Fudge has manufactured his own doctrine, and as I already posted, he has CONTRADICTED Scripture. The SDA Church is bitterly opposed to the Roman Catholic Church, but at least the RCC did not pervert the doctrine of Hell, and in fact has presented the true Bible doctrine.

THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Which means that Edward Fudge is a heretic, as are all Annihilationists.
 

ReChoired

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Why not? This is the first time I am hearing about this guy who fudged the doctrine of eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire. ...
LOF Context:

Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?

Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 KJB - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 KJB - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 KJB - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

While Revelation 21:1 KJB states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:

Isaiah 33:14 KJB - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Isaiah 33:15 KJB - He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Isaiah 33:16 KJB - He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Isaiah 33:17 KJB - Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Isaiah 33:18 KJB - Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?

Isaiah 33:19 KJB - Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

Isaiah 33:20 KJB - Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

Isaiah 33:21 KJB - But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.​

[see also Ezekiel 47:1-6 KJB]

Isaiah 33:22 KJB - For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

Isaiah 33:23 KJB - Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

Isaiah 33:24 KJB - And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.​

The text also reveals that the "lake of fire", even the fiery "sea" will have passed away also [for to "pass away", is to "die"], for it was upon this old earth, look again [ignore the chapter break for a moment, just read it straight through]:

Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

In scripture, a "Sea" = "Lake" [whether of water, fire, etc]:

Luke 5:1 - "the lake of Gennesaret" [see "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11 KJB], [see also "Chinnereth" [Deuteronomy 3:17; Joshua 19:35 KJB]] or "sea of Chinneroth" [Joshua 12:3 KJB], or "of Gennesaret" [Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53 KJB]; Matthew 8:27; Mark 4:39,41 KJB uses the word "sea" and John 6:1 says, "sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias".

The very word "lake" in the Koine Greek in Revelation 20:14,15 is λιμνην [limnen].

G3041 [only used in the Koine Greek of the NT, I didn't find it in the (so-called) LXX either]

λίμνη limnē

Total KJB Occurrences: 10

lake, 10

Luke 5:1-2 (2), 8:22-23 (2),33;
Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15 (2), 21:8​

See also the alternate word for "sea":

G2281 [its also in the (so-called) LXX, in the very places of the "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11,12 (so-called) [LXX], etc]

θάλασσα thalassa

Total KJB Occurrences: 95

sea
, 93

Mat_4:15, Mat_4:18 (2), Mat_8:24, Mat_8:26-27 (2), Mat_8:32, Mat_13:1, Mat_13:47, Mat_14:24-26 (3), Mat_15:29, Mat_17:27, Mat_18:6, Mat_21:21, Mar_1:15-16 (3), Mar_2:13, Mar_3:7, Mar_4:1 (3), Mar_4:39, Mar_4:41, Mar_5:1, Mar_5:13 (2), Mar_5:21, Mar_6:47-49 (3), Mar_7:31, Mar_9:42, Mar_11:23, Luk_17:2, Luk_17:6, Luk_21:25, Joh_6:1 (2), Joh_6:16-19 (4), Joh_6:22, Joh_6:25, Joh_21:1, Joh_21:7, Act_4:24, Act_7:36, Act_10:6, Act_10:32, Act_14:15, Act_17:14, Act_27:30, Act_27:38, Act_27:40, Act_28:4, Rom_9:27, 1Co_10:1-2 (2), 2Co_11:26, Heb_11:12, Heb_11:29, Jas_1:6, Jud_1:13, Rev_4:6, Rev_5:13, Rev_7:1-3 (3), Rev_8:8-9 (3), Rev_10:2, Rev_10:5-6 (2), Rev_10:8, Rev_12:12, Rev_13:1 (2), Rev_14:7, Rev_16:2-3 (4), Rev_18:17, Rev_18:19, Rev_18:21, Rev_20:8, Rev_20:13, Rev_21:1​

red [sea], 2

Act_7:36, Heb_11:29​

Do you believe?

Do you believe that the wicked will be at some point "ashes" by the fire/lake of fire?

Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

Do you believe that this fire/lake of fire only burns up the 'body' unto "ashes"?

Do you believe that something of the person [an immortal essence, or whatever] continues to exist after the 'body' is long gone as "ashes"?

If so, how does this physical fire, bring any further 'never-ending' torments to this non-corpse [non-body] entity?

Where do these wicked non-body [non-corpse] entities exist for and ever?

Do you believe that Satan has a physical body? If no, how does the physical fire of Revelation 20 [etc] affect him and his angels? How, would he and they become "ashes" [Ezekiel 28:18 KJB]?
 

ReChoired

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We do not need a lengthy justification for any heresy. Fudge has manufactured his own doctrine, and as I already posted, he has CONTRADICTED Scripture. The SDA Church is bitterly opposed to the Roman Catholic Church, but at least the RCC did not pervert the doctrine of Hell, and in fact has presented the true Bible doctrine.

THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Which means that Edward Fudge is a heretic, as are all Annihilationists.
Rome, and her daughters say, not to scripture for positive evidence, but to other things and philosophies:

"...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Soul

"... For
positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immortality
 

Enoch111

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What you quoted was a single text Revelation 20:10, out of context..
NOT out of context. That is a false accusation. And if one verse of Holy Writ will not suffice, then nothing will.

Your reams and reams and reams of words contradicting eternal Hell mean absolutely nothing. The truth can be stated in just a few words (like Revelation 20:10).
 

Giuliano

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It is extremely unfortunate that the Hebrew and Greek words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus were ALL labeled as "hell" by the King James translators (and probably in all the other English translations of that time, including the Douay-Rheims translation).

But when the Bible says that "hell" was cast into the Lake of Fire, the Greek word is Hades, which is definitely not Hell (Gehenna, the Lake of Fire). It is Hades which was metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire.

You will notice that in Revelation Death and Hades are personified in chapters 6 and 20. But what it means is that the existence of Hades (the region of departed souls and spirits) is no longer necessary, therefore Hades is metaphorically cast in to the Lake of Fire (since all the inhabitants of that region have been cast into the Lake of Fire, and there will not be any more unrighteous dead on earth).

The same applies to death. Following the Great White Throne judgment, the New Heavens and the New Earth will come into existence. And there will be no more sin on earth -- just eternal righteousness. Therefore there will also be no more death. So once again death is metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire.
So where are "sinners" now? Burning in the lake of fire or being held in hades?

Revelation disagrees with you about that "eternal righteousness" bit. This is after the Thousand Years:

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. . .
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


The "unjust" and "filthy" are not burning in the lake of fire.
When you see pictures of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, you see Death and Hades riding on a pale horse. They have simply been personified.
I think death and hell are real forces. . . . If they're just symbols, then you're saying Jesus defeated symbols by defeating them?
 

ReChoired

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NOT out of context. That is a false accusation. And if one verse of Holy Writ will not suffice, then nothing will.

Your reams and reams and reams of words contradicting eternal Hell mean absolutely nothing. The truth can be stated in just a few words (like Revelation 20:10).
Ignasius - The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be.​

Athanasius the Great - On the Incarnation of the Word, Chapter 4

For transgression of the commandment was turning them back to their natural state, so that just as they have had their being out of nothing, so also, as might be expected, they might look for corruption into nothing in the course of time. 5. For if, out of a former normal state of non-existence, they were called into being by the Presence and loving-kindness of the Word, it followed naturally that when men were bereft of the knowledge of God and were turned back to what was not (for what is evil is not, but what is good is), they should, since they derive their being from God who IS, be everlastingly bereft even of being; in other words, that they should be disintegrated and abide in death and corruption.​

Irenaeus - Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 34)

And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: “If you have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?” indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.​

Video link to Church Fathers who were Annhilationists:

Church Fathers who were Conditionalists | Rethinking Hell

Immortality in the early church. A comprehensive study in e-Book form:

http://bryangrayministries.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Immortality-in-the-Early-Church.doc
 

Enoch111

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So where are "sinners" now? Burning in the lake of fire or being held in hades?
Sinner are being held in Hades unto the Great White Throne Judgment.
Revelation disagrees with you about that "eternal righteousness" bit.
One must connect the dots. So here is the connection in 2 Peter 3:13: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

At the same time all sinners will be in the Lake of Fire.
I think death and hell are real forces. . . . If they're just symbols, then you're saying Jesus defeated symbols by defeating them?
I believe you have misunderstood what I said. Death and Hades were PERSONIFIED -- as if they were persons. They are very real. But personification is a figure of speech, just like when people say "the fury of the storm". The storm is not a person, but is personified here.
 

Waiting on him

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So where are "sinners" now? Burning in the lake of fire or being held in hades?

Revelation disagrees with you about that "eternal righteousness" bit. This is after the Thousand Years:

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. . .
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


The "unjust" and "filthy" are not burning in the lake of fire.
I think death and hell are real forces. . . . If they're just symbols, then you're saying Jesus defeated symbols by defeating them?
Luke 8:28 KJV
[28] When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
My opinion is to much group think, this man is begging “don’t give me my truth”
 

Giuliano

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Sinner are being held in Hades unto the Great White Throne Judgment.

One must connect the dots. So here is the connection in 2 Peter 3:13: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

At the same time all sinners will be in the Lake of Fire.

I believe you have misunderstood what I said. Death and Hades were PERSONIFIED -- as if they were persons. They are very real. But personification is a figure of speech, just like when people say "the fury of the storm". The storm is not a person, but is personified here.
Thanks for clearing up that you don't think death and hell are mere symbols. You still haven't come to terms with the fact that people cast into the lake of fire are seen later outside the Holy City.
 
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Episkopos

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Rev. 20:14 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."



If death and hell are cast are cast into the lake of fire do these suffer torment forever? Or does anything temporal (including us) perish in the fire? When has death ever meant eternal torment. It is a cessation of life. So then if the first death was separation from life...then why would the second death prolong the life that the first death sought to separate?

Do our bad works live on in eternal torment? No, of course not. Or does the fire burn them up? Are we more purified by an eternal torment? What purpose does an eternal suffering have for people who were careless with their lives for a few short years? God will pay back up to seven times...but His wrath doesn't last forever. The wicked die and then it's over.

To see fire as an eternal torment is to miss the purifying effect that fire brings. We are not qualified as yet to comment on the judgment of angels. We are not angels. And we have not yet passed the bar, so to speak, that qualifies us as judges of anything.
 
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Giuliano

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Luke 8:28 KJV
[28] When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
My opinion is to much group think, this man is begging “don’t give me my truth”
I wonder why he thought Jesus would torment him. Jesus was just walking by. Just having Jesus near him seemed to make him get uncomfortable and shaky as if he couldn't stand being around good. I think the wicked imagine much of their torment into existence.

Proverbs 28:1 The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.
 
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Episkopos

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Thanks for clearing up that you don't think death and hell are mere symbols. You still haven't come to terms with the fact that people cast into the lake of fire are seen later outside the Holy City.


Actually it is they who are cast into outer darkness that are barred from entering the city. Even in the next age (eternal) the naked and shamed are not permitted access to God or His people. There are walls and gates to the holy city.

They who are cast into the lake of fire perish there. That is why it is called the second death. Man can kill the body...but God can destroy the soul (our very essence) in the fire.

Fear God.
 

Waiting on him

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I wonder why he thought Jesus would torment him. Jesus was just walking by. Just having Jesus near him seemed to make him get uncomfortable and shaky as if he couldn't stand being around good. I think the wicked imagine much of their torment into existence.

Proverbs 28:1 The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.
Hebrews 12:29 KJV
[29] For our God is a consuming fire.
 

Waiting on him

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Actually it is they who are cast into outer darkness that are barred from entering the city. Even in the next age (eternal) the naked and shamed are not permitted access to God or His people. There are walls and gates to the holy city.

They who are cast into the lake of fire perish there. That is why it is called the second death. Man can kill the body...but God can destroy the soul (our very essence) in the fire.

Fear God.
Hebrews 13:11-13 KJV
[11] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
 
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Enoch111

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You still haven't come to terms with the fact that people cast into the lake of fire are seen later outside the Holy City.
That is resolved very simply by understanding the those in the Lake of Fire can be seen by those who are with Christ. We are discussing matters outside the natural realm. Now please note "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ):

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14:10)

What this tells us is exactly what I said above. The Lake of Fire is supernaturally visible from the New Jerusalem in Heaven. Which means that sinners are outside the Holy City.

When men begin to use their limited human reasoning to try and grasp these matters, they invariably go into error, just like Edward Fudge, and everyone else who tries to fudge the truth.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Rev. 20:14 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."



If death and hell are cast are cast into the lake of fire do these suffer torment forever? Or does anything temporal (including us) perish in the fire? When has death ever meant eternal torment. It is a cessation of life. So then if the first death was separation from life...then why would the second death prolong the life that the first death sought to separate?

Do our bad works live on in eternal torment? No, of course not. Or does the fire burn them up? Are we more purified by an eternal torment? What purpose does an eternal suffering have for people who were careless with their lives for a few short years? God will pay back up to seven times...but His wrath doesn't last forever. The wicked die and then it's over.

To see fire as an eternal torment is to miss the purifying effect that fire brings. We are not qualified as yet to comment on the judgment of angels. We are not angels. And we have not yet passed the bar, so to speak, that qualifies us as judges of anything.


Numbers 11:1-3 And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord : and the Lord heard it ; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp. [2] And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the Lord, the fire was quenched. [3] And he called the name of the place Taberah: because the fire of the Lord burnt among them.
 
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