Perpetual virginity of Mary!

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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Please point me to the verses that say Mary had sex; that she had other children.

The four Gospels, the Acts of Apostles, and two of Paul’s letters mention “the Lord’s brothers,” “the brother of the Lord,” “his brothers,” “his sisters,” naming four of the “brothers”: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas. (Mt 12:46; 13:55, 56; Mr 3:31; Lu 8:19; Joh 2:12; Ac 1:14; 1Co 9:5; Ga 1:19) The majority of Bible scholars accept the cumulative evidence that Jesus had at least four brothers and two sisters and that all were offspring of Joseph and Mary by natural means after the miraculous birth of Jesus.
 
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theefaith

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We can’t have Satan accusing Jesus being the Son of a sinner!

gen 3:15 enmity total war none of His works are in Her!

Lk 1:28 Mary is blessed
Lk 1:49 He that is mighty has done great things to me, the Holy Spirit conception of Jesus! And the immaculate conception of Mary!
Rev 12:1 clothed with the sun! Immaculate purity!
The ark is incorruptible wood cover with pure gold with angels over it, a type of Mary and Her immaculate purity, with the angel over Her!
 

theefaith

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Yes!

where does the Bible say they did?

Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (Council of the Lateran, 649)

Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!

And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!

Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (does James save his people?)

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!

Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
(The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son, singular)

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son is God)

Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!
 
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Mungo

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The four Gospels, the Acts of Apostles, and two of Paul’s letters mention “the Lord’s brothers,” “the brother of the Lord,” “his brothers,” “his sisters,” naming four of the “brothers”: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas. (Mt 12:46; 13:55, 56; Mr 3:31; Lu 8:19; Joh 2:12; Ac 1:14; 1Co 9:5; Ga 1:19) The majority of Bible scholars accept the cumulative evidence that Jesus had at least four brothers and two sisters and that all were offspring of Joseph and Mary by natural means after the miraculous birth of Jesus.

None of those references say Mary had sex
None of those references say those "brothers" and "sisters" were children of Mary.

And the majority of Bible scholars do NOT accept the cumulative evidence that Jesus had at least four brothers and two sisters and that all were offspring of Joseph and Mary by natural means after the miraculous birth of Jesus.
You just made that up.
 

Marymog

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..... The majority of Bible scholars accept the cumulative evidence that Jesus had at least four brothers and two sisters and that all were offspring of Joseph and Mary by natural means after the miraculous birth of Jesus.
Completely and utterly NOT TRUE Barney!!! That teaching started AFTER the Reformation and even some of the Reformers taught Perpetual Virginity.

You should have said "The majority of the scholars I have read....."!
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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None of those references say Mary had sex
None of those references say those "brothers" and "sisters" were children of Mary.

And the majority of Bible scholars do NOT accept the cumulative evidence that Jesus had at least four brothers and two sisters and that all were offspring of Joseph and Mary by natural means after the miraculous birth of Jesus.
You just made that up.

No I didn't, you're the one who has allowed imperfect humans fabrications to influence you are true, that's on you. The scriptures show that when it comes to wives and husband's their bodies don't just belong to themselves. The husband's body doesn't just belong to him but it also belongs to the wife and the body of the wife doesn't only belong to her it also belongs to the husband and neither husband or wife should be depriving each others body from each other.

Also statements to the effect that Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn” (Lu 2:7), and that Joseph “had no intercourse with her until she gave birth to a son,” also support the view that Joseph and Mary had other children. (Mt 1:25) Even Nazarene neighbors recognized and identified Jesus as “the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon,” adding, “And his sisters are here with us, are they not?”—Mr 6:3.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Completely and utterly NOT TRUE Barney!!! That teaching started AFTER the Reformation and even some of the Reformers taught Perpetual Virginity.

You should have said "The majority of the scholars I have read....."!

No what you're saying is not true. You could care less what the scriptures say. Such as statements to the effect that Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn” (Lu 2:7), and that Joseph “had no intercourse with her UNTIL she gave birth to a son,” also support the view that Joseph and Mary had other children. (Mt 1:25) Even Nazarene neighbors recognized and identified Jesus as “the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon,” adding, “And his sisters are here with us, are they not?”—Mr 6:3. You could care less about what scripture says. It's not important to you what Gods Holy Spirit inspired men to write down. It's what imperfect humans thoughts and what they say that's more important to you.
 

Prayer Warrior

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In Mary is all our hope of salvation!

Acts 4:8-12-- Then Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit and said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders: If we are being examined today about a good deed done to a disabled man — by what means he was healed — let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene — whom you crucified and whom God raised from the dead — by Him this man is standing here before you healthy. This Jesus is the stone rejected by you builders, which has become the cornerstone. There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people, and we must be saved by it.
 

Illuminator

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No what you're saying is not true. You could care less what the scriptures say. Such as statements to the effect that Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn” (Lu 2:7), and that Joseph “had no intercourse with her UNTIL she gave birth to a son,” also support the view that Joseph and Mary had other children. (Mt 1:25) Even Nazarene neighbors recognized and identified Jesus as “the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon,” adding, “And his sisters are here with us, are they not?”—Mr 6:3. You could care less about what scripture says. It's not important to you what Gods Holy Spirit inspired men to write down. It's what imperfect humans thoughts and what they say that's more important to you.
If you talked about my mother in front of me with the same disrespectful tone you talk about Jesus' mother, I would justifiably punch you in the face. The Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary highlights the uniqueness and sanctity of the Incarnation, not Mary as a person apart from that. That's why you are forced to unbiblically isolate Mary from Jesus, and could care less about what has always been believed.
 

theefaith

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And the Bible say the Lord is with Mary!
Lk 1:28

and mother of God Lk 1:43

and all must call Her blessed! Lk 1:48

why is She blessed?
 

Illuminator

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And the Bible say the Lord is with Mary!
Lk 1:28

and mother of God Lk 1:43

and all must call Her blessed! Lk 1:48

why is She blessed?
She is Blessed because it is a proper BIBLICAL title that anti-Mary Christians ignore. It's not found on their web sites, literature or sermons yet they claim to follow the Bible and we don't.
"...all generations shall call me Blessed..." except theirs.

hypocrisy.jpg
 
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Mungo

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No what you're saying is not true. You could care less what the scriptures say. Such as statements to the effect that Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn” (Lu 2:7),

Firstborn does not mean onlyborn.

For the ancient Jews firstborn meant the child that opened the womb (Ex. 13:2; Num. 3:12). Under the Mosaic Law, it was the "first-born" son that was to be sanctified (Ex. 34:20). Did this mean the parents had to wait until a second son was born before they could call their first the "first-born"? Hardly. The first male child of a marriage was termed the "first-born" even if he turned out to be the only child of the marriage.

Moreover to be the ‘first-born’ was a very important title in that culture, since among other things, it implied the person would receive two thirds of the inheritance. It does not refer only to the fact of being the first one to be born, since the older son, even if the only one would be called ‘first-born’. Heb 1:6 is a reference to God sending his first-born Son into the world. Who would be others sent by God with the same dignity as Jesus?

‘First-born’ refers to a privilege, without having to have had other sons or children. If the ‘first-born’ were at the same time the ‘only-born’, the first title would count for more.

and that Joseph “had no intercourse with her UNTIL she gave birth to a son,” also support the view that Joseph and Mary had other children. (Mt 1:25)

The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. It does not mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.

Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death?

“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84?

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching?

Even Nazarene neighbors recognized and identified Jesus as “the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon,” adding, “And his sisters are here with us, are they not?”—Mr 6:3.

The first point is that there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14). Other similar examples can be given.

Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
Tychicus, my beloved brother (adelphos)……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother (adelphos)”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).

Thirdly there indications in scripture that the brothers and sisters referred to in Mt 13:55 (and the equivalent in other gospels) are not Jesus brothers in any genetic sense.

You could care less about what scripture says. It's not important to you what Gods Holy Spirit inspired men to write down. It's what imperfect humans thoughts and what they say that's more important to you.
I care very much about what scripture actually says.
It is you who are inventing what scripture does not say.
 

Illuminator

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Firstborn does not mean onlyborn.

For the ancient Jews firstborn meant the child that opened the womb (Ex. 13:2; Num. 3:12). Under the Mosaic Law, it was the "first-born" son that was to be sanctified (Ex. 34:20). Did this mean the parents had to wait until a second son was born before they could call their first the "first-born"? Hardly. The first male child of a marriage was termed the "first-born" even if he turned out to be the only child of the marriage.

Moreover to be the ‘first-born’ was a very important title in that culture, since among other things, it implied the person would receive two thirds of the inheritance. It does not refer only to the fact of being the first one to be born, since the older son, even if the only one would be called ‘first-born’. Heb 1:6 is a reference to God sending his first-born Son into the world. Who would be others sent by God with the same dignity as Jesus?

‘First-born’ refers to a privilege, without having to have had other sons or children. If the ‘first-born’ were at the same time the ‘only-born’, the first title would count for more.



The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. It does not mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.

Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death?

“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84?

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching?

The first point is that there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14). Other similar examples can be given.

Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
Tychicus, my beloved brother (adelphos)……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother (adelphos)”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).

Thirdly there indications in scripture that the brothers and sisters referred to in Mt 13:55 (and the equivalent in other gospels) are not Jesus brothers in any genetic sense.

I care very much about what scripture actually says.
It is you who are inventing what scripture does not say.
Good post. Using plain logic and common sense, you have exposed the illogical, unbiblical, absurd abuse of Matthew 1:25.

“not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” "until“, the Greek "Heos” references the past, never the future. Sadly, the anti-Mary crowd ignores original Greek text, doesn't fulfil Judaism in any meaningful sense and supports man made traditions invented by liberals and atheists in the mid 18th century. It's fad theology.


mary.jpg
 
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theefaith

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scripture says a son singular!

Is 7:14
Matt 1:23
Lk 1:35

and Her son is God! Lk 1:35
 

Illuminator

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scripture says a son singular!

Is 7:14
Matt 1:23
Lk 1:35

and Her son is God! Lk 1:35
Luke 2:41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. And before they left Nazareth Mary and Joseph hired babysitters to look after Jesus' "siblings" while they were gone! The Bible is perfectly clear!!!
 
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theefaith

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But Mary does have other children! billions of them! Spiritual children!
As Eva was the mother of all the living in the first creation so Mary is the mother of all the living in the new! Jn 19:26-27 rev. 12:17

do you have insights on the meaning of Lk 2:35
 

Eternally Grateful

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Honor thy father and mother!

and she is your mother!

Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17 if your a disciple of Jesus!

and in the line of king David Lk 1:32-33 the mother of the king is always queen and Jesus is king of heaven so Mary is queen of heaven, see queen Esther she was a type of Mary


lk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

lk 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Mary is not my mother

and Jesus had brothers, so she also did not die a virgin

so your wrong on both points,
 
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Eternally Grateful

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I'll come out as say this point blank:

Using Sola Scriptura, the question of "did Mary and Joseph ever eventually have sex" is not resolvable. The Bible is mute on the subject. There are lots of things that are true (or not true) that aren't listed out in the Bible.

If DESPISE the bashing people do to one another over this subject. Let's all just move on from this silly and divisive bashing.
I do not think the Bible is mute

it states Jesus had brothers. (Not cousins)

and it said joseph did not KNOW his wife until after the birth of Jesus.
Inspite of the claims contrary, this sentence is meaningless if he “never” knew his wife.
 
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