Biblical Salvation

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Hidden In Him

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I don't think we can say there is no support for the Book written from the foundation of the world. Which is when the lamb was slain. Rev. 13:8. That book seems to tell the world that damnation was predestined when the names of those God would save were written before the world was created,put on its foundation.
Ephesians 1, Romans 8 & 9.

Ok, wait. You are making several statements here that need to be substantiated first. Again, we are in disagreement if you think the verses say the Book was written before the foundation of the world. It only says that's when the Lamb was slain, in the fore-planning of God. Where are you getting that the Book "tells the world that damnation was predestined"? The book contains only names.

What are trying to tell me by quoting Ephesians 1 and Romans 8?
 
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Hidden In Him

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Why would you think God can sin against us?

I don't. :)
And why do you choose to ignore what God tells us of himself?

Again, I don't.
Is there any choice that is unknown to God that has foreordained everything?

Unknown to Him? No. But that does not equate to saying there's no choice He hasn't MADE already. Two different things.
The majority of the bible is prophecy received from God. How does that all come to pass? Because God is giving us insights to his plans already made. Foreordained means, to know beforehand. And predestination coincides. Why do you deny what God says of himself?

He only says that His plan will be fulfilled in the earth. It does not say that He has already predetermined who will be saved and who will not be.

You answered my question with, let's see... FIVE more of your own. I'm guessing that means you may not be too keen on the idea of actually answering it, LoL. ;)
 

CadyandZoe

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This is mainly a response to the unbiblical teaching by some of the “Reformed”, who teach that a sinner is first “regenerated” by the Holy Spirit, which then “makes them alive”, to call on the Lord for salvation. First off there is a problem here. The Holy Bible is very clear, that when it uses the term “regeneration” in relation to the salvation of sinners, it means being “born-again”, which is the same as being “saved”. Titus 3:5 says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit”. Here we have the term “regeneration”, from the Greek, “παλιγγενεσία”, which literally means, “again birth”. This “regeneration” is the work of God the Holy Spirit, Who uses the blood of Jesus Christ to “λουτρόν”, (bathe) the repentant sinner, and to “ἀνακαίνωσις” (renew) them by His conversion.

Secondly, appeal is made to Ephesians 2:1-6 as a “key” passage to support this theory, that the sinner is first “regenerated”, where Paul speaks of “making alive” the sinner, who is dead in their sins. Nowhere in this passage is there even a hint to say that the sinner is first “made alive”, and then “able” to call on the Lord for their salvation. Rather, Paul is here showing how Christians used to live, “in which you once walked” (v.2), “we all once lived” (3), and how God Who is rich in His Mercy, has saved us to be His children, apart from any our merited good works! In Colossians 2:13 Paul uses very similar language, “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together (συνεζωοποιησεν) with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses”.

The aorist participle in the course of a narration sometimes expresses a simultaneous action…Col. ii.13” (G Winer; A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.430)

“χαρισάμενος: “forgiving”. Forgiveness is contemporary with quickening” (Expositors Greek Testament)

“Paul identifies our being made alive with Christ as being caused by, or synonymous with, or simultaneous to, God’s having forgiven us our trespasses” (College Press Commentary)

Here Paul tells us that the sinner is “made alive” in Jesus, at the same time that they are forgiven ALL of their sins (πάντα τὰ παραπτώματα). And not before as taught by some. There is no sequence of events in the Greek. It is very clear from this, that both passages, Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2, teach that the sinner is “made alive” on having their sins forgiven, not before of after!

Ephesians 1:13-14 further clarifies this, Ephesians 1:13-14, “In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory”. The KJV is wrong to suggest that there is a time sequence here, but the Greek is very clear, it is “on believing in Him, [you] were sealed”, that is, “made a possession” of God the Holy Spirit. The sealing was the result of believing, and that was the result of hearing the gospel. The action of believing and sealing by the Spirit, happen simultaneously. Which is, “you heard…you believed…and then you were sealed.”. No time lapse in the Greek! The repentant, believing sinner becomes a child of God, when they are “regenerated” and “washed” and “renewed” by God the Holy Spirit.

The clearest teaching in the New Testament on the “order of salvation” of the lost sinner, is found in Acts chapter 2.

In this chapter of the birth of the Christian Church, we have the clearest Bible Teaching on how a lost sinner is born-again, and becomes a child of The Living God.

Acts chapter 2 records the first “sermon” that is preached, which is by the Apostle Peter. Here we have Peter preach on the Deity, Life, Death and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In his sermon, Peter quotes extensively from the Prophet Joel, where we read, “and it shall be, everyone whoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved” (v.21, literal Greek)

The quote is from Joel 2:32, which has “Yahweh”, and Peter here uses it for Jesus Christ, which Paul also does in Romans 10:13. Clear evidence that the Apostles believed Jesus Christ to be Yahweh, the Eternal, Unchanging, God!

It is clear that those who heard this Gospel Message, and were convicted by God the Holy Spirit, were to “invoke”, the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

After Peter had finished this message, those who were present, we are told, “were cut to the heart (κατενυγησαν την καρδιαν)” (verse 37), that is, their hearts were “pierced, stung sharply”, by the convicting of the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of Peter. Jesus Himself says in John chapter 16, “And when He (the Holy Spirit) is come, He will reprove (ἐλέγχω, to convict, find fault with) the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me”. Here in Acts is the fulfilment of these words of Jesus

After their “conviction” by the Gospel Message, we are told that they, “said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (37). There are some who suppose that the sinner must “do” nothing themselves. It is very clear that these sinners asked what must they DO. Neither Peter, or any of the other Apostles, say to them, that they must not “do” anything, but simply have “faith”. Instead, in the next verse we have Peter’s response. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (38-39). It must not be assumed from Peter’s reply, that the sinners sins are somehow removed in water baptism, which is taught by some. It is the “repenting” which is of their sins, that gets their sins forgiven. This is what the Lord Jesus says in Luke 24:47, “and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His Name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.” The word “remission” is from the Greek ἄφεσις, which denotes, “release, as from bondage, pardon, forgiveness”, as though they had never sinned.

We are told here, that when these sinners repented of their sins, and received forgiveness from the Lord, that they would also “receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit”. In chapter one of Acts, Jesus tells the Apostles, that not many days later, they would be “baptized with the Holy Spirit” (v 5). This was fulfilled in chapter 2, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit” (v 4). This is the “Gift” of the Holy Spirit, which Peter speaks of. The receiving of this Gift, we are told in Acts 1, gives “power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (v 8).

It is very clear from what the Bible teaches, that a sinner is only saved after they “repent and believe”, and they are not “made alive” prior to calling on the Lord for salvation, as Reformed theology wrongly teaches!

Ephesians 2:4-7
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

In your restatement of the Ephesians passage, you left out a very crucial aspect, which answers your objection. In order to strongly emphasize that salvation is "by grace", Paul makes God the author and finisher of every aspect of salvation, which is an act of God performed "even when we were dead in our transgressions." Not only did God supply the cross while we were dead in our transgressions; he raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavenly places while we were dead in our transgressions. In other words, God had designs on our destiny, which only became evident the moment we believed. Although the granting of the Holy Spirit is coincident with our confession of faith; the one does not cause the other. Being made alive, being raised up, and being seated all take place in the plans and purposes of God, which he manifests during our lifetime when it suits his purpose. The point is, all three are active "even when we were dead in our transgressions." That is, he saved us before we were aware we needed saving. Thus, we are saved by grace.
 

Enoch111

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But that isn't what is in the bible.
It absolutely is. So let's look at the passages pertaining to the removal of names from the Book of Life.

And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy Book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my Book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. (Exod 32:30-35)

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3:5)

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Rev 22:19)

It should be quite clear from the above (and there are many more) that names are REMOVED from the Book of Life, not added to it. The names of Moses and the Israelites who sinned were in that book. But since Moses had not sinned, his name would remain. Since those others had sinned grievously against God, their names would be removed.
 

Hidden In Him

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And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy Book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my Book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. (Exod 32:30-35)

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3:5)

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Rev 22:19)


The trouble, Enoch, is that all these verses are discussing people who belonged to the Lord. In order to prove your position, you would need to find a passage that states someone who did not belong to God was still in the Book of Life.

Or do you believe that all souls essentially belong to God until they reach the age of accountability and reject Him? I suppose that's a viable position.
 

Hidden In Him

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It should be quite clear from the above (and there are many more) that names are REMOVED from the Book of Life, not added to it. The names of Moses and the Israelites who sinned were in that book. But since Moses had not sinned, his name would remain. Since those others had sinned grievously against God, their names would be removed.

Also, the language of Philippians 4:3 makes Paul's statement that their names were "in the Book of Life" sound kinda insignificant if this was simply a given regarding all people unless they rejected Him:

And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who elabored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.
 

Amazed@grace

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It absolutely is. So let's look at the passages pertaining to the removal of names from the Book of Life.

And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy Book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my Book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. (Exod 32:30-35)

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3:5)

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Rev 22:19)

It should be quite clear from the above (and there are many more) that names are REMOVED from the Book of Life, not added to it. The names of Moses and the Israelites who sinned were in that book. But since Moses had not sinned, his name would remain. Since those others had sinned grievously against God, their names would be removed.
I think you are missing a key factor in the observation. For a name to be removed from the book it would have to first appear in that book. The names written therein and before the world or people. What then are we to make of names later removed by God? Is ours free will as the created within the creation of the sovereign? Or, is what we think is our free choices actually coinciding with what God has predetermined? Making it not a matter of a name literally being erased out of the book by God. But rather the text that forewarned of that potential is actually a matter of that name having never been there before the foundation of the world. Remember Jesus' promise to the saved? No one will take us from his hand. Coinciding with predetermined, proorizo in Greek, which means determined before, predetermined. Acts 4 reflects this as well.
 

Amazed@grace

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Just going by your prior post.

Again, I don't.
Again, just responding to what you did state previously.


Unknown to Him? No. But that does not equate to saying there's no choice He hasn't MADE already. Two different things.
Not according to what you just said.

He only says that His plan will be fulfilled in the earth. It does not say that He has already predetermined who will be saved and who will not be.
You have to ignore lots of scripture to believe that.
You answered my question with, let's see... FIVE more of your own. I'm guessing that means you may not be too keen on the idea of actually answering it, LoL. ;)
We'll leave this here. You are set in your notions and now deflect. Many a Christian state a belief in the Bible. So too are there many who prefer to ignore all of what it tells them about God from his own words.
 

Hidden In Him

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We'll leave this here. You are set in your notions and now deflect. Many a Christian state a belief in the Bible. So too are there many who prefer to ignore all of what it tells them about God from his own words.

Ok... I'm not much of a deflector, however, as I rarely feel the need to be. I was simply trying to get to what mentality might lay behind what could cause you to believe that our salvation is either chosen or not chosen by God, and the decisions of men to obey or not obey, serve or not serve, are not the deciding factor.

But the word is precisely what I was discussing with you, or at least attempting to. If I thought there was genuine support for salvation of men being predestined by God I would receive it, but the verses we have discussed don't state that the Book and the names written in it existed from the foundation of the world. They state (in the wording of the original texts) that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and that those found in the book of Life will be those who are found in Him. This is the consistent theology of the apostle Paul.

My apologies if I said anything wrong.
 
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Amazed@grace

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Ok... I'm not much of a deflector, however, as I rarely feel the need to be. I was simply trying to get to what mentality might lay behind what could cause you to believe that our salvation is either chosen or not chosen by God, and the decisions of men to obey or not obey, serve or not serve, are not the deciding factor.

But the word is precisely what I was discussing with you, or at least attempting to. If I thought there was genuine support for salvation of men being predestined by God I would receive it, but the verses we have discussed don't state that the Book and the names written in it existed from the foundation of the world. They state (in the wording of the original texts) that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and that those found in the book of Life will be those who are found in Him. This is the consistent theology of the apostle Paul.

My apologies if I said anything wrong.
Maybe that is where the confusion entered. I was about discussing God's own words not the theology of Paul and as he put it, his gospel. In a nutshell what I was making note of was that first and foremost the fall was predetermined by God. This we know because the book of the lamb slain before the creation of the world contains the names of those whom God would save.
Why too was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
 

Hidden In Him

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Why too was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?


Because He knew they would sin, for they would be human and imperfect. So He set up a plan of salvation in advance. You see, the reason they knew He had been slain from the foundation of the world was because it was foreshadowed in things like the Passover, and before that the sacrifice that Abel offered to God in faith. What these things prophetically symbolized made it clear that God had it all planned out well in advance. Man would need a substitute to be offered on his behalf, and God had already figured out how to provide it before they ever sinned (Abraham's near sacrifice of Isaac also foreshadowed it. It appears again and again in the Old Testament typology).
 

Amazed@grace

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Because He knew they would sin, for they would be human and imperfect. So He set up a plan of salvation in advance. You see, the reason they knew He had been slain from the foundation of the world was because it was foreshadowed in things like the Passover, and before that the sacrifice that Abel offered to God in faith. What these things prophetically symbolized made it clear that God had it all planned out well in advance. Man would need a substitute to be offered on his behalf, and God had already figured out how to provide it before they ever sinned (Abraham's near sacrifice of Isaac also foreshadowed it. It appears again and again in the Old Testament typology).
And how did the first of us sin?
 

Enoch111

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Or do you believe that all souls essentially belong to God until they reach the age of accountability and reject Him? I suppose that's a viable position.
That would be more consistent with the character of God and what is also revealed in Scripture. Since eternal life is a gift which everyone could receive if they met God's conditions (Acts 20:21) everyone is in the Book of Life UNTIL THEY EXCLUDE THEMSELVES. And God says that even the pagans are without excuse (Rom 1).

When God placed the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden, it implied that all humanity could receive eternal life if they met God's conditions. Since Adam and Eve did not meet His conditions, they were barred from the Tree of Life (a type of Christ).
 

Hidden In Him

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And how did the first of us sin?

By eating of the fruit of a tree God specifically told Adam not to eat of, which he in turn told Eve about because she obviously knew well enough to tell the serpent she wasn't supposed to be eating of it either.
 

Hidden In Him

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That would be more consistent with the character of God and what is also revealed in Scripture. Since eternal life is a gift which everyone could receive if they met God's conditions (Acts 20:21) everyone is in the Book of Life UNTIL THEY EXCLUDE THEMSELVES. And God says that even the pagans are without excuse (Rom 1).

It's a plausible argument, I just don't know that it can be proven out one way or another. Seems to me that before the age of accountability children have not yet chosen to make Him Lord, and in that case what qualifies them that they should be written in the Lamb's Book of Life? The title insinuates having received redemption from sins, and before the age of accountability they are not yet responsible for any, at least as far as a decision they have made for or against God.

But it's an interesting thought.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Well, it’s what birth is. Nobody ever gets to cause or get themselves be born, more so, be born again. Nicodemus asked Jesus about this birth from above.

And here’s the bottom line of what Jesus said in response:

“The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Do you see anything there that one does?
Jesus Christ is here saying that when a person is born again, it is not an outward thing, like entering the womb for a second time. It is not physical but spiritual. This has nothing to do with the sinner not being required to "repent and believe", which Jesus Himself says in Mark 1:15. You cannot take verses on their own, and try to form a doctrine from it. Peter in Acts 2 told those who asked, "what shall we DO", that they must REPENT.
First, I have to point, there is nothing in Jesus’ response to Nicodemus that speaks of anything that the person does with regards the birth from above.

Yes Jesus there in John 3:8, is telling us that the birth from above is not of the flesh but is of the spirit. But that is not all that Jesus was telling us about there.

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.

What is Jesus telling us by that regarding the birth from above?

Tong
R2519
 

Tong2020

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amigo de christo said:
I know that for a fact my friend . IT IS GOD alone who reaches out and convicts and changes the heart
But God has made it so, that the sinner still needs to respond. It is not automatic as though we are machines.
That is obvious I think. For if it were not, there is no need of conviction unto persuasion and repentance.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Ephesians 2:4-7
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

In your restatement of the Ephesians passage, you left out a very crucial aspect, which answers your objection. In order to strongly emphasize that salvation is "by grace", Paul makes God the author and finisher of every aspect of salvation, which is an act of God performed "even when we were dead in our transgressions." Not only did God supply the cross while we were dead in our transgressions; he raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavenly places while we were dead in our transgressions. In other words, God had designs on our destiny, which only became evident the moment we believed. Although the granting of the Holy Spirit is coincident with our confession of faith; the one does not cause the other. Being made alive, being raised up, and being seated all take place in the plans and purposes of God, which he manifests during our lifetime when it suits his purpose. The point is, all three are active "even when we were dead in our transgressions." That is, he saved us before we were aware we needed saving. Thus, we are saved by grace.
Yes, I think many fails to see and realize that in what Paul said in that passage. You bringing this up here, I hope that many would come to see and realize that now concerning that. Great job.

Tong
R2521
 
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amigo de christo

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Believe in the glorious King JESUS and you are in that book .
Continue faithful unto HIM to the end . And let the glorious LORD be praised . YES INDEED .
Let all that has breath sound those praises out unto the Glorious Lord .
 
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