1599 Geneva Bible!!!

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Willie T

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From a book I am rereading at the moment:

Problems began under James I, whose somewhat extravagant notion of the “divine right of kings” caused considerable political difficulties. The idea had been around since the Middle Ages; James, however, developed it in what many regarded as an unacceptable, even downright eccentric, way.11 The basic idea is summarized neatly in the opening sonnet of James’s Basilikon Doron (1598), written while he was still king of Scotland:

God gives not Kings the style of Gods in vain, For on his throne his Sceptre do they sway.

In some 1609 speeches to Parliament, James made it clear that he regarded himself as above the law, which was his instrument for ruling on God’s behalf.

The king’s subsequent dissolution of Parliament in 1611 was entirely consistent with his theology; it did nothing, however, to endear him to the increasingly powerful and vocal gentry. Sir Edward Coke (1552–1634) led the intellectual opposition to James’s interpretation of the “divine right of kings,” arguing that the king was under the law, not above it. Law was not something the king could use as he pleased to enforce his will; rather, it set limits to his actions.

The Anglican establishment felt that it had no choice but to support James in this matter. It required little critical acumen to notice that James’s theology of kingship lent support to the idea of religious establishment, thus safeguarding their positions, status, and incomes at a time of uncertainty. James had made it clear that he was resolutely opposed to “Papists and Puritans” and that he intended to steer a middle way between these two camps. The theory of the divine right of kings neatly locked church and king together in a robust circle of mutual support and reinforcement, in effect making the established church impervious to significant parliamentary criticism.

Yet the most significant criticism of James’ doctrine was theological. The theological foundation for the doctrine of “monarchomachy” — the idea that severe restrictions were to be placed upon the rights of kings, so that the people had both a right and a duty to resist tyrannical monarchs — was laid in France in response to the massacre of St. Bartholomew’s Day in 1572. Some years earlier, John Calvin — perhaps beginning to recognize the practical and political importance of the question — had conceded that rulers might exceed the bounds of their authority by setting themselves against God; when they did so, he suggested, they abrogated their own power. These ideas were developed and extended by his French followers in the aftermath of the events of 1572. François Hotman, Theodore Beza, and Philippe Duplessis-Mornay all emphasized precisely the same point: tyrants are to be resisted.12 The primary Christian duty to obey God is to be placed above any secondary obligation to obey a human ruler.

Puritan writers thus deconstructed the notion of the divine right of kings with theological ease and personal glee, pointing out its lack of biblical warrant. For them, the king’s excesses highlighted the virtues of the republicanism of Calvin’s Geneva. These virtues were emphasized by one of the most important English translations of the Bible — the so-called Geneva Bible, produced by English exiles at Geneva during the reign of Mary Tudor and published in 1560. It was probably the finest translation of its age. Yet its growing popularity in the reign of James I rested largely on an additional feature of this translation — its marginal notes.13

As we have emphasized time and time again, the vexed issue of biblical interpretation lies at the heart of the Protestant theological enterprise. Where earlier English Protestants, such as William Tyndale, had assumed — not a little optimistically, as it turned out — that the Bible, once translated, could easily be understood by any plowboy, the Geneva Bible explicitly recognized that there were “hard places” — that is, passages of the Bible that needed more than a little explanation. The marginal notes of the Geneva Bible provided its readers with clear explanations of the meanings of important yet potentially obscure biblical texts. Unsurprisingly, the interpretations offered were those associated with Calvin’s Geneva — theologically Reformed and politically republican. And equally unsurprisingly, the notes were highly critical of any idea of the “divine right of kings.”

The Geneva Bible provided powerful ammunition to those who challenged the theological basis of James’s ideology of kingship.14 Commenting on Daniel being thrown into the lions’ den, the Geneva Bible notes that Daniel “disobeyed the king’s wicked commandment in order to obey God.” The implication is clear: God approves of those who resist the unjust demands of kings. Much the same point is made in relation to the account of the Exodus. God ended Pharaoh’s oppression of his people through Moses. And God will deal in the same way with any other kings who oppress his people. It was not difficult to make the connection with James’s abortive attempts to rule England.

One of the biblical texts seized upon by the supporters of the “divine right of kings” was Psalm 105:15: “Do not touch mine anointed.” The meaning of the text was clear, they argued: the people are forbidden to take any form of violent action against God’s anointed one — in other words, the king. The Geneva Bible interpreted this verse in a rather different way: kings are forbidden to oppress or take any violent action against God’s anointed people. The implicit theological justification of republicanism could hardly be overlooked — as James himself knew.

James had encountered the Geneva Bible while in Scotland and cordially detested its marginal notes. One of his most significant religious actions as the new king of England was his 1604 command that a new English translation of the Bible was to be made — a translation that eventually appeared in 1611 and is widely known as the King James Bible. This new translation, he insisted, would have no marginal notes. Yet the new translation proved to be a commercial flop. The Geneva Bible reigned supreme until the restoration of the monarchy under Charles II — even though James banned its production in England in 1616.
 

farouk

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The translation committee had many Puritans working on the KJV. Approximately 25% of the translators were Puritans, including John Reynolds (Rainolds) who actually initiated the movement to have a new translation under James I.

"The chief events of his subsequent career were his share in the Hampton Court Conference, where he was the most prominent representative of the Puritan party and received a good deal of favour from the King.

During the Conference, the Puritans, led by Rainolds as spokesperson, directly questioned James about their grievances. However, almost every request brought forward by Rainolds was immediately denied or disputed by James. [6] At some point during the course of Rainolds’ pleading before the king, Rainolds made a request that “one only translation of the Bible . . . [be] declared authentical, and read in the church.” [7] Whether Rainolds was asking for a new translation or simply for a direction to authorize only one of the existing English translations, most took Rainolds’ words as a request for the former.[8] James readily agreed to a new translation."

From Wikipedia
I guess they all meant something different, but found a form of words by which to proceed, so they were all "agreed"...

(Where have I heard this kind of thing before among politicians...?)
 

CoreIssue

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In the end we must all agree that God's good hand was in this entire venture, and those who were selected to do the work of translation were outstanding scholars, and also outstanding Christians in their reverence and piety. The work was done with extreme diligence and care.

"But it is high time to leave them, and to show in brief what we proposed to ourselves, and what course we held in this our perusal and survey of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had been true in some sort, that our people had been fed with gall of Dragons instead of wine, with whey instead of milk) but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath been our endeavor, that our mark. To that purpose there were many chosen, that were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and that sought the truth rather than their own praise."

The KJV served a purpose. Hard to argue with that.

But when you dig into historical realities it was all built on politics and not spiritual purity as claimed.

If it had been the Apocrypha would not have been in it. Nor are the verses and words added by Catholics.

Today we have superior translations based on more manuscripts than they had access to. Older manuscripts not from Catholic sources from the 1500s.

And not written in archaic English.

People use whichever Bible they choose, including the KJV.

What is dishonest is to call the KJV the only true Bible order say it does not have God's truth in it.

Also dishonest is to call it the best translation when it added versus and then accuses other translations of deleting those verses. Or changing such as Passover to Easter when Christ was still very much alive.

This article is pretty evenhanded on dealing with the issue.

Why I Do Not Think the King James Bible Is the Best Translation Available Today
 

farouk

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The KJV served a purpose. Hard to argue with that.

But when you dig into historical realities it was all built on politics and not spiritual purity as claimed.

If it had been the Apocrypha would not have been in it. Nor are the verses and words added by Catholics.

Today we have superior translations based on more manuscripts than they had access to. Older manuscripts not from Catholic sources from the 1500s.

And not written in archaic English.

People use whichever Bible they choose, including the KJV.

What is dishonest is to call the KJV the only true Bible order say it does not have God's truth in it.

Also dishonest is to call it the best translation when it added versus and then accuses other translations of deleting those verses. Or changing such as Passover to Easter when Christ was still very much alive.

This article is pretty evenhanded on dealing with the issue.

Why I Do Not Think the King James Bible Is the Best Translation Available Today
In the early 19th century, some editions of the KJV started being printed without the Apocrypha.
 

Enoch111

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Today we have superior translations based on more manuscripts than they had access to.
This statement is UTTERLY FALSE. Today we have INFERIOR translations, since they are based upon corrupt manuscripts incorporated into corrupt critical texts.
 

farouk

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This statement is UTTERLY FALSE. Today we have INFERIOR translations, since they are based upon corrupt manuscripts incorporated into corrupt critical texts.
Sounds about right; often the so called "new" manuscripts are re-hashes of discarded, unreliable ones...
 
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CoreIssue

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The translation committee had many Puritans working on the KJV. Approximately 25% of the translators were Puritans, including John Reynolds (Rainolds) who actually initiated the movement to have a new translation under James I.

"The chief events of his subsequent career were his share in the Hampton Court Conference, where he was the most prominent representative of the Puritan party and received a good deal of favour from the King.

During the Conference, the Puritans, led by Rainolds as spokesperson, directly questioned James about their grievances. However, almost every request brought forward by Rainolds was immediately denied or disputed by James. [6] At some point during the course of Rainolds’ pleading before the king, Rainolds made a request that “one only translation of the Bible . . . [be] declared authentical, and read in the church.” [7] Whether Rainolds was asking for a new translation or simply for a direction to authorize only one of the existing English translations, most took Rainolds’ words as a request for the former.[8] James readily agreed to a new translation."

From Wikipedia

An interesting discussion about the KJV on the Puritan board demonstrates the politics of the time.

Geneva Bible & KJV
 

Willie T

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In this rare instance, I have to agree with CoreIssue. There have been literally thousands of biblical discoveries and technical advancements made since those older books were translated in the Middle Ages when scribes made mistakes and got tired. Computers do neither. And those machines instantly scan many tens of thousands of documents for comparative writing and style analyses that the translators of old didn't even know existed.
 
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CoreIssue

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In this rare instance, I have to agree with CoreIssue. There have been literally thousands of biblical discoveries and technical advancements made since those older books were translated in the Middle Ages when scribes made mistakes and got tired. Computers do neither. And those machines instantly scan many tens of thousands of documents for comparative writing and style analyses that the translators of old didn't even know existed.

True.

As well KJVO declare such as the NIV invalid because it does not contain certain verses the KJV does or errors such as Easter/

That is not proof. It is erroneous to site what you trying to prove true as proof it is true.

In the absurdity of saying a Bible in 1611 and manuscripts from the 1500s are more accurate than those from BC times in the first and second centuries A.D..
 

farouk

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True.

As well KJVO declare such as the NIV invalid because it does not contain certain verses the KJV does or errors such as Easter/

That is not proof. It is erroneous to site what you trying to prove true as proof it is true.

In the absurdity of saying a Bible in 1611 and manuscripts from the 1500s are more accurate than those from BC times in the first and second centuries A.D..
...but often the majority of manuscripts agree, while the minority disagree among themselves, even if older...
 

CoreIssue

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No; but the KJV is a proven, reliable version.

Proven according to whom?

The new versions were not there when I was saved using the KJV. But when I got the NIV my sanctification grew rapidly.

The way the KJV is written is the foundation many cults fall back on for proof. As well as false doctrine believers.

So I ask again, proven by whom?

And you do realize there were other Bibles before the KJV or are you saying there was no usable Bible for 1600 years?

...but often the majority of manuscripts agree, while the minority disagree among themselves, even if older...

So what if they agree? Of course under Catholicism they are going to agree.

And what are the manuscripts your supporting based on? Sure not the apostles, Christ or prophets.
 

farouk

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Proven according to whom?

The new versions were not there when I was saved using the KJV. But when I got the NIV my sanctification grew rapidly.

The way the KJV is written is the foundation many cults fall back on for proof. As well as false doctrine believers.

So I ask again, proven by whom?

And you do realize there were other Bibles before the KJV or are you saying there was no usable Bible for 1600 years?



So what if they agree? Of course under Catholicism they are going to agree.

And what are the manuscripts your supporting based on? Sure not the apostles, Christ or prophets.
I do think it's preposterous to advance that, just because some cults have used the KJV - going off in a tangent from the KJV's content, I might add - this somehow supposedly "proves" that little blessing has resulted from the hugely widespread reading and use of the KJV. Frankly, I'm not disposed to ague further, sorry.
 

CoreIssue

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I do think it's preposterous to advance that, just because some cults have used the KJV - going off in a tangent from the KJV's content, I might add - this somehow supposedly "proves" that little blessing has resulted from the hugely widespread reading and use of the KJV. Frankly, I'm not disposed to ague further, sorry.

It's not preposterous. It is like Catholicism saying its belief Peter was the first Pope and Bishop of Rome is accurate because it's so old a claim.

I'm not going in a tangent, I am zeroed in on the facts the KJV is based on Catholicism and nothing more. And the fact it contains so many errors.

What is preposterous is your defense. No evidence, pure supposition and personal desire. For it to be right.

As for widespread reading then you just defended Islam and cults..
 

farouk

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It's not preposterous. It is like Catholicism saying its belief Peter was the first Pope and Bishop of Rome is accurate because it's so old a claim.

I'm not going in a tangent, I am zeroed in on the facts the KJV is based on Catholicism and nothing more. And the fact it contains so many errors.

What is preposterous is your defense. No evidence, pure supposition and personal desire. For it to be right.

As for widespread reading then you just defended Islam and cults..
So many people have declared Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide from an English Bible which has been in the KJV. Really, I don't feel I have to "prove" any more to you (even though I am not strictly KJVO).

Really, I should move on...