19th Century Dispensationalism and Double Gospels

[veteran]

In the 1800's, a doctrine associated with the 'mystery' that Paul taught that Salvation would go to the Gentiles also began to be preached along with the Pre-trib secret rapture theory. It is called Dispensationalism. John Nelson Darby in 1800's Britain was one of the main developers of that Dispensationalist doctrine through the Brethren movement, along with promotion of the Pre-tribulational rapture he got from the Edward Irving Church. Some of their disciples then brought the idea to the Americas in 19th century, and folks like C.R. Stam in the 1940's further ran the idea.

Some ideas within Dispensationalism have valuable points, like with distinguishing different periods of how God has manifested His Plan of Salvation, first to Israel, and then to all peoples. But some points in the doctrine go way too far, like with the idea that there exists two separate Gospels, one for Israel, and another different Gospel meant just for Gentiles.

As much as I like E.W. Bullinger as a Christian scholar, and his work with the 1611 KJV study Bible called The Companion Bible, he having lived in that era of the 1800's when Dispensationalism and the Pre-trib rapture doctrines in Britain first began popularity with many, he also held to those doctrines of men and has notes in The Companion Bible that align with Dispensationalism and the Pre-trib rapture theories. (So be forewarned, those of you who use The Companion Bible.)

One of the major distinctions in that Dispensationalist doctrine about The Gospel of Jesus Christ, is their erroneous idea that The Gospel of Grace is totally separate from the The Gospel of The Kingdom idea.


Matt 24:13-14
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(KJV)

In the KJV Bible, the only place we find that "gospel of the kingdom" phrase is in the Gospel Books of Matthew and Mark quoting our Lord Jesus.

In the rest of the New Testament Books, the writers used the phrases of "gospel of Christ", "gospel of God", "gospel of peace", "gospel of the grace of God", etc., but not that "gospel of the kingdom" phrase. That difference coupled with where Apostle Paul says, "my gospel" in Rom.2:16, Rom.16:25, and 2 Timothy 2, those like C.R. Stam ran with the Dispensationalist separations even further, applying to the idea of two different Gospels, one for Israel and another for Gentiles. What Paul taught in Galatians 2 those like Stam also took to mean that idea...

Gal 2:7-8
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For He That wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
(KJV)


But in reality per all of God's Word, is there really TWO separate Gospels, one for Israel and another one for Gentiles? NO!

Whether declaring the word Gospel as the "gospel of the kingdom", "gospel of grace", or "gospel of Christ", or "gospel of God", it is always about the SAME Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is only ONE Gospel per God's Word, though different phrases are used to describe it.

In the Gal.2 Scripture, the main reason the translators put Gal.2:8 in parenthesis was to further explain 'how' Paul meant what he said about the idea of "gospel of circumcision" and "gospel of uncircumcision". It involved "apostleship", which is the idea of Christ's chosen apostles sent by Him in the One Gospel. Peter was to take The Gospel to Israel mainly, and Paul was mainly sent to take The Gospel to the Gentiles. But per the NT, Peter and Paul preached The Gospel BOTH to Israelites and Gentiles.

One of Dispensationalism's convenient features with the dual Gospel idea is to drum up support for the Pre-trib rapture doctrine, as it creates a division within Christ's Body of believers, Israelite believers separate from Gentile believers, and by that a Gentile Church only vs. Israel. Then that is used to help support their Pre-trib rapture doctrine of men, thinking that the Gentile Church is going to be raptured out prior to the tribulation while Israel is left on earth to go through the great tribulation. They won't often admit that they include Israelite believers on Christ Jesus with the Israel that's left-behind to go through the tribulation, but that's what the Dispensationalist idea supports.

That's an example of how men's doctrines get started. They take simple phrase distinctions about the One Gospel, and create a whole another Gospel with it, and then apply that to support other doctrines of men, like the Pre-trib rapture theory.

If you are a Christian, whether an Israelite believer or a Gentile believer, then the phrase "gospel of the kingdom" which our Lord Jesus preached better apply to you, otherwise you would be denying acceptance of the very Kingdom which Christ promised ALL believers on The Father through Him. Apostle Paul abundantly preached about the kingdom of God in relation to all believers (too many Scripture proofs to list here, look in your Strong's and you'll find Paul preaching it many times in his Epistles).

Now if that dual Gospel idea isn't enough confusion, one would be surprised how they take it yet another step farther, adding even another doctrine of men to it. And that is with separating Paul's Epistles from the rest of the whole Bible. That's right, they treat all 'other' Scripture other than Paul's writings as being only for Israel, INCLUDING the Four Gospel Books. Apostle Paul NEVER intended that, or he would not have ever said to Gentiles the 2 Timothy 3:16 Message. Taking apart God's Word like that is actually what the idea of Dispensationalism is about; it only BEGINS with the idea of God's Plan working in different periods, but it ends with a deliberate separation of Christ's Body which He means to be ONE BODY TOGETHER, not two or three, etc. One will eventually see that if they study all their Bible enough.

 

[RichardBurger]

In the 1800's, a doctrine associated with the 'mystery' that Paul taught that Salvation would go to the Gentiles also began to be preached along with the Pre-trib secret rapture theory. It is called Dispensationalism. John Nelson Darby in 1800's Britain was one of the main developers of that Dispensationalist doctrine through the Brethren movement, along with promotion of the Pre-tribulational rapture he got from the Edward Irving Church. Some of their disciples then brought the idea to the Americas in 19th century, and folks like C.R. Stam in the 1940's further ran the idea.

Some ideas within Dispensationalism have valuable points, like with distinguishing different periods of how God has manifested His Plan of Salvation, first to Israel, and then to all peoples. But some points in the doctrine go way too far, like with the idea that there exists two separate Gospels, one for Israel, and another different Gospel meant just for Gentiles.

As much as I like E.W. Bullinger as a Christian scholar, and his work with the 1611 KJV study Bible called The Companion Bible, he having lived in that era of the 1800's when Dispensationalism and the Pre-trib rapture doctrines in Britain first began popularity with many, he also held to those doctrines of men and has notes in The Companion Bible that align with Dispensationalism and the Pre-trib rapture theories. (So be forewarned, those of you who use The Companion Bible.)

One of the major distinctions in that Dispensationalist doctrine about The Gospel of Jesus Christ, is their erroneous idea that The Gospel of Grace is totally separate from the The Gospel of The Kingdom idea.


Matt 24:13-14
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(KJV)

In the KJV Bible, the only place we find that "gospel of the kingdom" phrase is in the Gospel Books of Matthew and Mark quoting our Lord Jesus.

In the rest of the New Testament Books, the writers used the phrases of "gospel of Christ", "gospel of God", "gospel of peace", "gospel of the grace of God", etc., but not that "gospel of the kingdom" phrase. That difference coupled with where Apostle Paul says, "my gospel" in Rom.2:16, Rom.16:25, and 2 Timothy 2, those like C.R. Stam ran with the Dispensationalist separations even further, applying to the idea of two different Gospels, one for Israel and another for Gentiles. What Paul taught in Galatians 2 those like Stam also took to mean that idea...

Gal 2:7-8
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For He That wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
(KJV)


But in reality per all of God's Word, is there really TWO separate Gospels, one for Israel and another one for Gentiles? NO!

Whether declaring the word Gospel as the "gospel of the kingdom", "gospel of grace", or "gospel of Christ", or "gospel of God", it is always about the SAME Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is only ONE Gospel per God's Word, though different phrases are used to describe it.

In the Gal.2 Scripture, the main reason the translators put Gal.2:8 in parenthesis was to further explain 'how' Paul meant what he said about the idea of "gospel of circumcision" and "gospel of uncircumcision". It involved "apostleship", which is the idea of Christ's chosen apostles sent by Him in the One Gospel. Peter was to take The Gospel to Israel mainly, and Paul was mainly sent to take The Gospel to the Gentiles. But per the NT, Peter and Paul preached The Gospel BOTH to Israelites and Gentiles.

One of Dispensationalism's convenient features with the dual Gospel idea is to drum up support for the Pre-trib rapture doctrine, as it creates a division within Christ's Body of believers, Israelite believers separate from Gentile believers, and by that a Gentile Church only vs. Israel. Then that is used to help support their Pre-trib rapture doctrine of men, thinking that the Gentile Church is going to be raptured out prior to the tribulation while Israel is left on earth to go through the great tribulation. They won't often admit that they include Israelite believers on Christ Jesus with the Israel that's left-behind to go through the tribulation, but that's what the Dispensationalist idea supports.

That's an example of how men's doctrines get started. They take simple phrase distinctions about the One Gospel, and create a whole another Gospel with it, and then apply that to support other doctrines of men, like the Pre-trib rapture theory.

If you are a Christian, whether an Israelite believer or a Gentile believer, then the phrase "gospel of the kingdom" which our Lord Jesus preached better apply to you, otherwise you would be denying acceptance of the very Kingdom which Christ promised ALL believers on The Father through Him. Apostle Paul abundantly preached about the kingdom of God in relation to all believers (too many Scripture proofs to list here, look in your Strong's and you'll find Paul preaching it many times in his Epistles).

Now if that dual Gospel idea isn't enough confusion, one would be surprised how they take it yet another step farther, adding even another doctrine of men to it. And that is with separating Paul's Epistles from the rest of the whole Bible. That's right, they treat all 'other' Scripture other than Paul's writings as being only for Israel, INCLUDING the Four Gospel Books. Apostle Paul NEVER intended that, or he would not have ever said to Gentiles the 2 Timothy 3:16 Message. Taking apart God's Word like that is actually what the idea of Dispensationalism is about; it only BEGINS with the idea of God's Plan working in different periods, but it ends with a deliberate separation of Christ's Body which He means to be ONE BODY TOGETHER, not two or three, etc. One will eventually see that if they study all their Bible enough.

What the churches teach today is a BLENDED, HOMOGENIZED theology of trying to fit square pegs into round holes, of trying to make Law the same as grace. It is the most confusing theolgy because people can not know whether their sins are forgiven or not. It is a theolgy that says God has treated mankind the same way in all of time.

Sorry, but the scriptures teach that God has progressively changed how He deals with mankind.

People would do well to study and see for themselves what dispensationist believe rather that take any mans negative rants.

If anyone is a protestant then they have their roots in the protestant reformation and that did not occur until about 1400. So to dismiss studying the scriptures from a dispensational viewpoint because it was not considered until 1800 is certainly not rational or good Bible study.

 

[veteran]

I also would like to admonish my Gentile Christian brethren to study all of God's Word as a whole, and not just take out Scriptures which Dispensationalists try to say is not meant for Gentiles.

To study all of God's Word is not going back into bondage to the Old Covenant law like many Dispensationalists want us to think. Quite a few of the Dispensationalist Churches out there try to say we need only Apostle Paul's Epistles in order to know about God's Salvation Plan through His Son. That is not an idea which Apostle Paul taught, which what Paul said in Timothy 3:16 gives absolute proof that all of God's Word is breathed by God, and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.

We should also remember that Repentance of sins is not just an Old Covenant teaching. It is a New Covenant requirement our Lord Jesus gave, even in The Lord's Prayer which He gave us in His one Gospel to all peoples. It is also very much a part of taking Communion with Jesus Christ, humbling ourselves before Him.

 

[tomwebster]

I also would like to admonish my Gentile Christian brethren to study all of God's Word as a whole, and not just take out Scriptures which Dispensationalists try to say is not meant for Gentiles.

To study all of God's Word is not going back into bondage to the Old Covenant law like many Dispensationalists want us to think. Quite a few of the Dispensationalist Churches out there try to say we need only Apostle Paul's Epistles in order to know about God's Salvation Plan through His Son. That is not an idea which Apostle Paul taught, which what Paul said in Timothy 3:16 gives absolute proof that all of God's Word is breathed by God, and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.

We should also remember that Repentance of sins is not just an Old Covenant teaching. It is a New Covenant requirement our Lord Jesus gave, even in The Lord's Prayer which He gave us in His one Gospel to all peoples. It is also very much a part of taking Communion with Jesus Christ, humbling ourselves before Him.

I understand the Dispensations differently than you and I think you make a mistake if you try to place all Dispensational Theology in one pot. There are different Administrations in God's Word. I also have a different appreciation for E W Bullinger’s work than you. There is a reason most people do not care for his work and that is perfectly fine with me. His work is not for everyone.

 

[veteran]

I understand the Dispensations differently than you and I think you make a mistake if you try to place all Dispensational Theology in one pot. There are different Administrations in God's Word. I also have a different appreciation for E W Bullinger’s work than you. There is a reason most people do not care for his work and that is perfectly fine with me. His work is not for everyone.

I actually have not been discussing the idea of dispensatiional periods in God's Plan that much. That much of the doctrine I agree with. I'm aware there are various forms of Dispensationalism. One could... even categorize me (if they wanted), as a Progressive Dispensationalist (God's Plan of Salvation moving progressively forward through different periods).

But in your opinion, what kind of Dispensationalism is it that treats only Paul's Epistles for Gentile believers, and preaches there are TWO Gospels instead of ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ?

(P.S. - I love the work E.W. Bullinger did with his Companion Bible. I still think it is the BEST KJV study Bible on the market today. That still doesn't mean I'm going to accept the Pre-trib rapture theory like he did, nor much of the Dispensationalist view from Darby about some supposed separation of Israelites from Christ's Body.)

 

[tomwebster]

...
(P.S. - I love the work E.W. Bullinger did with his Companion Bible. I still think it is the BEST KJV study Bible on the market today. That still doesn't mean I'm going to accept the Pre-trib rapture theory like he did, nor much of the Dispensationalist view from Darby about some supposed separation of Israelites from Christ's Body.)

Bullinger did not have the information available to understand the migration of the tribes of Israel we have today. If he had known the true identity of Israel he would not have agreed with the pre-trib rapture.

 

[veteran]

Bullinger did not have the information available to understand the migration of the tribes of Israel we have today. If he had known the true identity of Israel he would not have agreed with the pre-trib rapture.

Yeah, and I was a bit surprised at that, for he obviously was familiar with the prophecies. Could be the Dispensationalist and Pre-trib rapture beliefs got in his way of that. Can't have that Israelite separation from Gentiles doctrine to properly understand it. That's why I believe Dispensationalism had later become an idea further developed by the "crept in unawares" to get many off track in God's Word.

 

[RichardBurger]

I also would like to admonish my Gentile Christian brethren to study all of God's Word as a whole, and not just take out Scriptures which Dispensationalists try to say is not meant for Gentiles.

To study all of God's Word is not going back into bondage to the Old Covenant law like many Dispensationalists want us to think. Quite a few of the Dispensationalist Churches out there try to say we need only Apostle Paul's Epistles in order to know about God's Salvation Plan through His Son. That is not an idea which Apostle Paul taught, which what Paul said in Timothy 3:16 gives absolute proof that all of God's Word is breathed by God, and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.

We should also remember that Repentance of sins is not just an Old Covenant teaching. It is a New Covenant requirement our Lord Jesus gave, even in The Lord's Prayer which He gave us in His one Gospel to all peoples. It is also very much a part of taking Communion with Jesus Christ, humbling ourselves before Him.

You are so foolish with your comments. Dispensationlist teach the whole Bible. It teaches that God has changed His program of salvation several times but obviously you can't see it.

However, Paul was the Apostles sent to the Gentiles with a gospel of grace that was HIDDEN in God and revealed to him. If it was revealed before Jesus gave it to Paul then it wasn't hidden. But you don't really believe it was a hidden gospel of grace even though you can't find one verse in the O.T. and the first 4 books of the N.T. that teaches being reconciled to God by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Instead of telling others they don't know the scriptures perhaps you should tell youself.

We need the O.T. to see how God dealt with mankind in the different ages. We need the first 4 books of the N.T. to see how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies about Him. Without them (the O.T. and the first 4 books of the N.T. ) how can we understand who Jesus was.

The best book on dispensational thought, complete with time charts is "DISPENSATIONAL TRUTH" written by Clarence Largin.

Some of the comentarys on Mr. Larkins book are these;

Mr. Larkin is a 'Master Workman' in "rightly dividing the work of truth (Dr. I.M. Haldeman)

"Mr. Larkin has published what may be called the most elabrorate and exhaustive specimen of Biblical and Dispensational Cartography that has ever been designed." (Rev. F.W. Farr)

"It is the best collection of 'Dispensational Charts ever published. I know of none to compare with it." (Rev. Frank S. Weston, Toronto Bible College.)

 

[Thankful 1]

Do you realize people the fact that a Christian does not sin is the corner stone the crushes Luther, Calvin, and the rest of the Reformation theologians house of cards?

 

[RichardBurger]

Do you realize people the fact that a Christian does not sin is the corner stone the crushes Luther, Calvin, and the rest of the Reformation theologians house of cards?

It is the spirit that is born of God that does not sin. The flesh will always sin. If you say your flesh does not sin the scripture says you are a liar.

 

[veteran]

You are so foolish with your comments. Dispensationlist teach the whole Bible. It teaches that God has changed His program of salvation several times but obviously you can't see it.

However, Paul was the Apostles sent to the Gentiles with a gospel of grace that was HIDDEN in God and revealed to him. If it was revealed before Jesus gave it to Paul then it wasn't hidden. But you don't really believe it was a hidden gospel of grace even though you can't find one verse in the O.T. and the first 4 books of the N.T. that teaches being reconciled to God by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Instead of telling others they don't know the scriptures perhaps you should tell youself.

We need the O.T. to see how God dealt with mankind in the different ages. We need the first 4 books of the N.T. to see how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies about Him. Without them (the O.T. and the first 4 books of the N.T. ) how can we understand who Jesus was.

I don't see what? That the form of Dispensationalism you're on tries to divide Christ's Body with two separate Gospels, when there is only ONE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST? Such an idea is a silly doctrine of men, turning and twisting what Paul taught inside out.


That "gospel of grace of God" phrase occurs only one time in the KJV Bible, and it is nowhere in Paul's Epistles. All Christ's Apostles preached the idea of grace along with The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Grace is not a term one can try to use only for Paul's preaching of The Gospel.

To infer that only the gospel that Paul taught involving Salvation going also to the Gentiles is some separate Gospel than the very Gospel of Jesus Christ taught THROUGHOUT all of God's Word is ludicrous, and gross error away from God's Holy Writ.

You know why it's crazy to have that idea about two separate Gospels? Because the prophecy that The Gospel Salvation would ALSO go to the Gentiles WAS FIRST WRITTEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS! That's where Apostle Paul was pulling from when he preached The Gospel to the Gentiles, AND to Israelites scattered among them!

Peter preached the SAME Gospel to Gentiles that Paul did. And Paul preached the SAME Gospel to Gentiles and Jews when both were gathered together under one roof!! That's a lot of what the Book of Acts is about. And in Acts 9 our Lord Jesus even said Paul was His "chosen vessel" to preach The Gospel to whom? To the Gentiles, AND to kings, AND to the children of Israel!!!

Don't you even know what that word 'gospel' means per Scripture, or why the four Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are called The Four Gospels? It's because The Gospel means 'good tidings' because of Christ Jesus being born through a virgin to die on the cross for the remission of sins past for those who believe. That was prophesied to occur in the Old Testament Books, which is where our Lord Jesus and all His Apostles preached The Gospel from, ESPECIALLY Apostle Paul.

Holding to some false idea that Paul preached a different Gospel than any other Apostle preached is a sign of those he said are 'drunken in the night'. They are so spiritually 'drunk' on men's doctrines they can't discern the simple Truth.

 

[RichardBurger]

I don't see what? That the form of Dispensationalism you're on tries to divide Christ's Body with two separate Gospels, when there is only ONE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST? Such an idea is a silly doctrine of men, turning and twisting what Paul taught inside out.


That "gospel of grace of God" phrase occurs only one time in the KJV Bible, and it is nowhere in Paul's Epistles. All Christ's Apostles preached the idea of grace along with The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Grace is not a term one can try to use only for Paul's preaching of The Gospel.

To infer that only the gospel that Paul taught involving Salvation going also to the Gentiles is some separate Gospel than the very Gospel of Jesus Christ taught THROUGHOUT all of God's Word is ludicrous, and gross error away from God's Holy Writ.

You know why it's crazy to have that idea about two separate Gospels? Because the prophecy that The Gospel Salvation would ALSO go to the Gentiles WAS FIRST WRITTEN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS! That's where Apostle Paul was pulling from when he preached The Gospel to the Gentiles, AND to Israelites scattered among them!

Peter preached the SAME Gospel to Gentiles that Paul did. And Paul preached the SAME Gospel to Gentiles and Jews when both were gathered together under one roof!! That's a lot of what the Book of Acts is about. And in Acts 9 our Lord Jesus even said Paul was His "chosen vessel" to preach The Gospel to whom? To the Gentiles, AND to kings, AND to the children of Israel!!!

Don't you even know what that word 'gospel' means per Scripture, or why the four Books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are called The Four Gospels? It's because The Gospel means 'good tidings' because of Christ Jesus being born through a virgin to die on the cross for the remission of sins past for those who believe. That was prophesied to occur in the Old Testament Books, which is where our Lord Jesus and all His Apostles preached The Gospel from, ESPECIALLY Apostle Paul.

Holding to some false idea that Paul preached a different Gospel than any other Apostle preached is a sign of those he said are 'drunken in the night'. They are so spiritually 'drunk' on men's doctrines they can't discern the simple Truth.

You seem to have a problem of not believing what the word says. Paul said it was """HIDDEN IN GOD""" but you say it wasn't. I will believe Paul.

So you believe that the same gospel has been preached throughout the Bible . That is plain enough, but I disagree.

The scripture: 1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
NKJV

Your belief that the mystery was that God would include the Gentiles does not seem like a sufficent reason for them to not crucified Jesus. Gentiles could always be included by becoming a Jewish Proselyte.

The real reason is that NOW God has made a plan of salvation that is completely based on Jesus' shed blood on the cross and not on religious practices. If the Jews had known that, they would certainly not have shed His blood. An act that in this age of grace completely negates the Jewish religion. In other words the gospel of grace based on Jesus' shed blood was the mystery.

 

[veteran]

You seem to have a problem of not believing what the word says. Paul said it was """HIDDEN IN GOD""" but you say it wasn't. I will believe Paul.

It's pretty obvious you don't really pay attention to my posts, but only hear what you 'want' to hear.


Of course the idea that Christ's Salvation would also go to the Gentiles was 'hidden' until it began.

Did that mean God did not cause it to be written down in prophecy through His OT prophets beforehand? No, of course not. Even Peter revealed that...

1 Pet 1:9-12
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
(KJV)

Do you know what Peter said there? Peter rightly understood that, because he was first to be shown by example that Salvation was also to the Gentiles, as per Acts 10!

But actually, didn't even our Lord Jesus tell His disciples in The Gospel to go preach to all nations? Yes, per Matt.28; Mark 16, and Luke 24. That right then was the very first revealing of it, but they did not yet understand it either until they saw it.

Now, since Christ has come and died on the cross to offer us His Salvation, we can go back into the Old Testament Books and discover where the prophecies about that had been written beforehand.

It's because now all believers on Christ Jesus are given to 'understand' about it. That's why so many Christian pastors are able to go back to the OT and show it, and preach The Gospel from the OT prophets along with the NT witnesses. Afterall, THAT is exactly what Apostle Paul was doing when preaching The Gospel to the Gentiles, for he was pulling especially from OT Scripture. Paul was not a believer until after... Pentecost, but Paul would be chosen to write most of the NT Books.

This is one of the reasons why I highly recommend the KJV study Bible which the 19th century Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger put together called The Companion Bible. Every time Apostle Paul was pulling from Old Testament Scripture when preaching The Gospel to the Gentiles, Bullinger lists a side margin note to the OT Scripture. Go ask your pastor if this is not so. If your pastor is a Christian pastor, he will not deny that fact about Paul's preaching The Gospel also from OT Scripture.

So you believe that the same gospel has been preached throughout the Bible . That is plain enough, but I disagree.

Yep!! Same Gospel, because God has only ONE Salvation Plan for all peoples, not two, or three, or four, etc. Apostle Paul proved in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 it's one and the same Gospel when he taught about those of Faith having become "the children of Abraham" because of believing by Faith as Abraham did, ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BOOK OF GENESIS!

The scripture: 1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
NKJV

Your belief that the mystery was that God would include the Gentiles does not seem like a sufficent reason for them to not crucified Jesus. Gentiles could always be included by becoming a Jewish Proselyte.

What's Gentiles becoming part of Israel under the OLD COVENANT got to do with Christ Jesus and The New Covenant when The Gospel went also to Gentiles after Christ's crucifixion? You haven't forgotten the basic rules of dispensationalism have you? You know, the idea of God's Salvation progressively being revealed through a succession of periods?

Do you think all Israelites had a hand in Christ's crucifixion? Those false prophets have taught you to believe that lie. Makes me wonder if your Bible has only Paul's Epistles in it, with the rest of the Books of The Bible torn out. You don't fully understand Paul's Epistles, because you haven't first understood the previous Books of The Bible which Apostle Paul was a scholar within. I have to tell you that, for obviously those you listen to are not going to tell you.

The real reason is that NOW God has made a plan of salvation that is completely based on Jesus' shed blood on the cross and not on religious practices. If the Jews had known that, they would certainly not have shed His blood. An act that in this age of grace completely negates the Jewish religion....

God made that Salvation Plan through Christ Jesus FROM THE FIRST, EVEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Even Apostle Paul admitted that...

Eph 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(KJV)

Eph 2:18-22
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(KJV)

In other words the gospel of grace based on Jesus' shed blood was the mystery.

Yes, that was a mystery, and a mystery that Christ's Gospel would also go to the Gentiles, but our Lord Jesus revealed how Abraham was shown when He told the unbelieving Jews that Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and was glad...

John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
(KJV)

 

[RichardBurger]

It's pretty obvious you don't really pay attention to my posts, but only hear what you 'want' to hear.


Of course the idea that Christ's Salvation would also go to the Gentiles was 'hidden' until it began.

Did that mean God did not cause it to be written down in prophecy through His OT prophets beforehand? No, of course not. Even Peter revealed that...

1 Pet 1:9-12
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
(KJV)

Do you know what Peter said there? Peter rightly understood that, because he was first to be shown by example that Salvation was also to the Gentiles, as per Acts 10!

But actually, didn't even our Lord Jesus tell His disciples in The Gospel to go preach to all nations? Yes, per Matt.28; Mark 16, and Luke 24. That right then was the very first revealing of it, but they did not yet understand it either until they saw it.

Now, since Christ has come and died on the cross to offer us His Salvation, we can go back into the Old Testament Books and discover where the prophecies about that had been written beforehand.

It's because now all believers on Christ Jesus are given to 'understand' about it. That's why so many Christian pastors are able to go back to the OT and show it, and preach The Gospel from the OT prophets along with the NT witnesses. Afterall, THAT is exactly what Apostle Paul was doing when preaching The Gospel to the Gentiles, for he was pulling especially from OT Scripture. Paul was not a believer until after... Pentecost, but Paul would be chosen to write most of the NT Books.

This is one of the reasons why I highly recommend the KJV study Bible which the 19th century Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger put together called The Companion Bible. Every time Apostle Paul was pulling from Old Testament Scripture when preaching The Gospel to the Gentiles, Bullinger lists a side margin note to the OT Scripture. Go ask your pastor if this is not so. If your pastor is a Christian pastor, he will not deny that fact about Paul's preaching The Gospel also from OT Scripture.





Yep!! Same Gospel, because God has only ONE Salvation Plan for all peoples, not two, or three, or four, etc. Apostle Paul proved in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 it's one and the same Gospel when he taught about those of Faith having become "the children of Abraham" because of believing by Faith as Abraham did, ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BOOK OF GENESIS!




What's Gentiles becoming part of Israel under the OLD COVENANT got to do with Christ Jesus and The New Covenant when The Gospel went also to Gentiles after Christ's crucifixion? You haven't forgotten the basic rules of dispensationalism have you? You know, the idea of God's Salvation progressively being revealed through a succession of periods?

Do you think all Israelites had a hand in Christ's crucifixion? Those false prophets have taught you to believe that lie. Makes me wonder if your Bible has only Paul's Epistles in it, with the rest of the Books of The Bible torn out. You don't fully understand Paul's Epistles, because you haven't first understood the previous Books of The Bible which Apostle Paul was a scholar within. I have to tell you that, for obviously those you listen to are not going to tell you.




God made that Salvation Plan through Christ Jesus FROM THE FIRST, EVEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Even Apostle Paul admitted that...

Eph 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(KJV)

Eph 2:18-22
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(KJV)



Yes, that was a mystery, and a mystery that Christ's Gospel would also go to the Gentiles, but our Lord Jesus revealed how Abraham was shown when He told the unbelieving Jews that Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and was glad...

John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
(KJV)

Foreseeing-Beforehand-would justify

Galatians 3:6-8
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." NKJV

Note the words “foreseeing“, “would justify“, “beforehand“. They clearly indicate that faith was not instituted at that time. It was to be a future event.

But you don't believe it was to be a future event do you?

 

[veteran]

Foreseeing-Beforehand-would justify

Galatians 3:6-8
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." NKJV

Note the words “foreseeing“, “would justify“, “beforehand“. They clearly indicate that faith was not instituted at that time. It was to be a future event.

But you don't believe it was to be a future event do you?

You're just not thinking, but are so bent on trying to support the doctrine of men's divisions, that it has clouded your mind.

When Apostle Paul pointed back to Abraham's Faith, THAT IS when The Promise of Salvation by Faith began! That WAS... the start of The Gospel Faith. God ordained it before the foundation of the world. To Abraham He first gave that Salvation Promise by Faith (Gen.14-17). That is WHY Apostle Paul taught that about believing Gentiles becoming the children of Abraham involving The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Our Lord Jesus even CONFIRMED that about The Gospel being revealed to Abraham, in John 8:56 when He told the Pharisees that Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and was glad. That's what Paul was talking about in that Galatians 3 Scripture.

 

[RichardBurger]

You're just not thinking, but are so bent on trying to support the doctrine of men's divisions, that it has clouded your mind.

When Apostle Paul pointed back to Abraham's Faith, THAT IS when The Promise of Salvation by Faith began! That WAS... the start of The Gospel Faith. God ordained it before the foundation of the world. To Abraham He first gave that Salvation Promise by Faith (Gen.14-17). That is WHY Apostle Paul taught that about believing Gentiles becoming the children of Abraham involving The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Our Lord Jesus even CONFIRMED that about The Gospel being revealed to Abraham, in John 8:56 when He told the Pharisees that Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and was glad. That's what Paul was talking about in that Galatians 3 Scripture.

I sure wish you would get off this thing you have of always saying I have a proplem. Don't you realize I can make those same charges to you? "You're just not thinking, but are so bent on trying to support your doctrine first developed by the RCC and then the many protestant divisions, that it has clouded your mind, so there!

I have posted this before but you ignor it. The gospel of Grace was told to Abraham but it WAS NOT PUT IN EFFECT AT THAT TIME, according to Paul. I will believe Paul. You can believe what is in your own head.

Foreseeing-Beforehand-would justify

Galatians 3:6-8
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." NKJV

Note the words “foreseeing“, “would justify“, “beforehand“. They clearly indicate that faith was not instituted at that time. It was to be a future event.

 

[lawrance]

I just see this type of dispensationalism as just wordily and racist trash thought up by mad men to push their ends.
I think their may of been a type of dispensation with Mary.
When i finally came out from all that worldly protestant half baked Christianity and seen who and what Mary really is all about and it was great. but i was trying to see it from a worldly perception but you can only really see in a spiritual way. so to me this so called 19Th Century dispensationalism to me has no real spiritual foundations.
It's just of poor delusions running around chasing their tail as it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all really.

 

[veteran]

I sure wish you would get off this thing you have of always saying I have a proplem. Don't you realize I can make those same charges to you? "You're just not thinking, but are so bent on trying to support your doctrine first developed by the RCC and then the many protestant divisions, that it has clouded your mind, so there!

I have posted this before but you ignor it. The gospel of Grace was told to Abraham but it WAS NOT PUT IN EFFECT AT THAT TIME, according to Paul. I will believe Paul. You can believe what is in your own head.

Foreseeing-Beforehand-would justify

Galatians 3:6-8
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." NKJV

Note the words “foreseeing“, “would justify“, “beforehand“. They clearly indicate that faith was not instituted at that time. It was to be a future event.

OK, sorry, but I had to say it, because it's true...

Rom 4:3-5
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him That justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(KJV)


You CANNOT try to separate Abraham's Faith from our Faith on The Saviour. It's the SAME Faith is why...

Rom 4:13-16
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(KJV)


Faith WAS instituted at the time of Abraham. That's specifically what the Promise to Abraham was about!

Abraham believed by Faith, and God counted it to him as righteousness. That is HOW and WHY those in Christ Jesus are now counted as spiritual children of Abraham. When Christ Jesus did come to die on the cross, that sealed that Promise by Faith. But the Promise by Faith had already been given long before Christ's first coming. And that Promise was The Gospel Salvation by Faith on God's Promised Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[veteran]

I just see this type of dispensationalism as just wordily and racist trash thought up by mad men to push their ends.
I think their may of been a type of dispensation with Mary.
When i finally came out from all that worldly protestant half baked Christianity and seen who and what Mary really is all about and it was great. but i was trying to see it from a worldly perception but you can only really see in a spiritual way. so to me this so called 19Th Century dispensationalism to me has no real spiritual foundations.
It's just of poor delusions running around chasing their tail as it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all really.

What's you're point?

What you've been espousing is known as Hyper-Dispensationalism. That's where the dual Gospel idea originated. The dual Gospel idea was NOT part of the original Dispensationalist ideas from 1800's Great Britain.

Early Dispensationalists only saw one Gospel, but two different stewardships or administrations of the one Gospel with the ministries of Paul and Peter.

Just as with what Paul showed Peter in Galatians, Gentile Christians should be able visit assemblies of Jewish believers on Jesus Christ and be welcomed as fellow-brethren, and visa versa. In the time of Acts, Christ's Church included both believing Israelites and Gentiles together as one body. That's how it really still should be today.

 

[RichardBurger]

OK, sorry, but I had to say it, because it's true...

Rom 4:3-5
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him That justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(KJV)


You CANNOT try to separate Abraham's Faith from our Faith on The Saviour. It's the SAME Faith is why...

Rom 4:13-16
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(KJV)


Faith WAS instituted at the time of Abraham. That's specifically what the Promise to Abraham was about!

Abraham believed by Faith, and God counted it to him as righteousness. That is HOW and WHY those in Christ Jesus are now counted as spiritual children of Abraham. When Christ Jesus did come to die on the cross, that sealed that Promise by Faith. But the Promise by Faith had already been given long before Christ's first coming. And that Promise was The Gospel Salvation by Faith on God's Promised Saviour Jesus Christ.

Then perhaps you can tell me what these scriptures I referenced mean.

Galatians 3:6-8
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." NKJV

Why did Paul use all these future tense words?