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theefaith

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Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

St. Francis de Sales commented:

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:

ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:

These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)

Indulgences are graces merited by the passion and blood of Christ.

They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)

Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)






Penance!

In the Old Testament the religious sense of penitence is revealed with even greater richnessc. Even though man generally has recourse to it in the aftermath of sin to placate the wrath of God, or on the occasion of grave calamities, or when special dangers are imminent, or in any case to obtain benefits from the Lord, we can nevertheless establish that external penitential practices are accompanied by an inner attitude of "conversion," that is to say of condemnation of and detachment from sin and of striving toward God. One goes without food or gives away his property (fasting is generally accompanied not only by prayer but also by alms) even after sins have been forgiven and independently of a request for graces. One fasts or applies physical discipline to "chastise one's own soul," to "humble oneself in the sight of his own God," to "turn one's face toward Jehovah," to "dispose oneself to prayer," to "understand" more intimately the things which are divine, or to prepare oneself for the encounter with God.

Penance therefore—already in the Old Testament—is a religious, personal act which has as its aim love and surrender to God: fasting for the sake of God, not for one's own self. Such it must remain also in the various penitential rites sanctioned by law. When this is not verified, the Lord is displeased with His people: "Today you have not fasted in a way which will make your voice heard on high.... Rend your heart and not your garments, and return to the Lord your God."

We can further establish that penitence was represented even before Christ as a means and a sign of perfection and sanctity. Judith, Daniel, the prophetess Anna and many other elect souls served God day and night with fasting and prayers, and with joy and cheerfulness.

Finally, we find among the just ones of the Old Testament those who offered themselves to satisfy with their own personal penitence for the sins of the community. This is what Moses did in the 40 days when he fasted to placate the Lord for the guilt of his unfaithful people. This above all is how the character of the Servant of Jehovah is presented, "who took on our infirmities" and in whom "the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

All this, however, was but a foreshadowing of things to come. Penitence—required by the inner life, confirmed by the religious experience of mankind and the object of particular precept of divine revelation-assumes "in Christ and the Church" new dimensions infinitely broader and more profound.

Christ, who always practiced in His life what He preached, before beginning His ministry spent 40 days and 40 nights in prayer and fasting, and began His public mission with the joyful message: "The kingdom of God is at hand." To this He added the command: "Repent and believe in the Gospel." These words constitute, in a way, a compendium of the whole Christian life.

The kingdom of God announced by Christ can be entered only by a "change of heart" ("metanoia") that is to say through that intimate and total change and renewal of the entire man—of all his opinions, judgments and decisions—which takes place in him in the light of the sanctity and charity of God, the sanctity and charity which were manifested to us in the Son and communicated fully.

The invitation of the Son to "metanoia" becomes all the more inescapable inasmuch as He not only preaches it but Himself offers an example. Christ, in fact, is the supreme model for those doing penance. He willed to suffer punishment for sins which were not His but those of others.
 

theefaith

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If we have saving faith in Christ then we have hope. Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. It's not about I have faith, but I don't have enough hope so I won't be saved. So it's still salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Philippians 3:9 etc..). Your faith and hope is in works and purgatory for salvation and is not in Christ alone.

so you’re not saved in hope?

Christ alone?


John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Not Christ alone must also believe on the Father who sent Christ!
 
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L.A.M.B.

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Thats interesting. I ave known many sinless perfectionist in my lifetime. I will have to wonder now if they are all KJV only people..



No EG,
you won't have to wonder, friend. I prefer the KJB as my guide to know God and walk accordingly but IT tells us of what must be done when we sin, which we do.
I do not believe in sinless perfection unless one is deceased or translated.
 

theefaith

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Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is not found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22
 

theefaith

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So which is it?

You present an order that places "draw" and "instruct" and "believe" BEFORE "baptism" ... and then perform baptisms on infants that CLEARLY have not been "instructed" (and offer no indication of having been "drawn" or "believing").

If one of the crowd that was "pierced" in their heart in Acts 2 and heard Peter's message in Acts 2 and repented as commanded in Acts 2 was killed by a runaway cart on his way to be baptized ... would he remain damned or would he have died saved on his way to proclaim what God had done?
[The answer is the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist ... no Baptist believes that he NEEDS any purgatory to forgive anything ... Sola Fide ... his FAITH in Jesus was sufficient to save him: John 3:18 ... because GOD did all the heavy lifting: Ephesians 2:1-10].

that’s very different than rejection of baptism by “faith alone”!

Infant Baptism

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say except infants!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness.

(It does not say accept infants!)

Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament of the new covenant for all men. Matt 28:19 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!) (but it does say “all”)!

Lk 1:10-11 all people including infants

Thee faith is required for baptism.
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

If it’s not possible (as in the case of infants) it’s not required.

But the promise of the parents to raise and educate the child in the faith is required, then the child is confirmed in thee faith at the age of reason.

Repentance is required for baptism. Acts 2:38

If there is no personal sin to repent of (as in the case of infants) then it’s not required.

For two thousand years the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always baptized infants!
 

theefaith

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We Are not brought life by “faith alone”!

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

initiation into the new covenant:

cannot be by “Faith alone” must be an outward sign, and must be brought into the new covenant communion of saints!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 

L.A.M.B.

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Warnings ABOUT “falling from FAITH”, DO NOT APPLY, to “MEN CONVERTED IN CHIRST!”


What a heaping bunch of poooooo!

All the scriptures about FALLING AWAY FROM FAITH are for those professing Christ !
Maybe a look at scripture through the Spirit is needed.
You can not fall away from something you have zero part in.........

The scripture is so twisted that follows someone who quotes you CANT FALL AWAY.......THEY NEVER WERE OF US.
1John 2:19 ( context 17-20)
This verse in context ,not just pulled ad lib for the cause is talking about antichrist that come in among to deceive ppl. The Spirit will so condemn those coming in to deceive that they cannot stand it, therefore they have to go.
No where in that verse does it say fallen away but went !

V.17............but he that DOETH THE WILL OF GOD ABIDETH FOR EVER.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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I do not believe in sinless perfection unless one is deceased or translated

“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Romans 6:4-6)

“For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:” (Romans 6:7-8)

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)

“It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:” (2 Timothy 2:11)

If you reckon yourself still “alive” in the flesh, then reckon that you will not live with him in the end either.

This is the great stumbling block of men who continue to indulge the desires of his flesh and mind and emotions.
 

GEN2REV

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You can not fall away from something you have zero part in....
But do we have zero part in obedience to God?
The scripture is so twisted that follows someone who quotes you CANT FALL AWAY.......THEY NEVER WERE OF US.
They likely were not obeying either.
....but he that DOETH THE WILL OF GOD ABIDETH FOR EVER.
See, you're supporting my point for me. There is clearly something that must be 'done', something that God expects us to 'do'.

What does Jesus say, repeatedly, that it means to believe in Him?
John 14:15
John 15:14
John 15:10
John 14:21
John 14:23

What does Jesus tell the 'Many' who say 'Lord, Lord' is the reason they are being sent away?
Matthew 7:23

He says it is because they are workers of iniquity. What does that mean?

It means they lived in habitual sin by breaking the Commandments and caused many others to sin by their living example of disobedience.

That is Christ speaking of the future which proves that sin is still possible, whether you believe these were Christians or not (which they most certainly were). IF sin is still possible now, and into the future, then OSAS is ... impossible.
 
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GEN2REV

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“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Romans 6:4-6)

“For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:” (Romans 6:7-8)

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)

“It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:” (2 Timothy 2:11)

If you reckon yourself still “alive” in the flesh, then reckon that you will not live with him in the end either.

This is the great stumbling block of men who continue to indulge the desires of his flesh and mind and emotions.
But what about James 3:2?

You never seem to comment on that.
 

theefaith

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We Are not brought life by “faith alone”!

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

initiation into the new covenant:

cannot be by “Faith alone” must be an outward sign, and must be brought into the new covenant communion of saints!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 

L.A.M.B.

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@Michiah-Imla
@GEN2REV

.M....There is NO ONE who has walked in perfection on this earth except Jesus. Enoch loved God and was NOT for God took him. Elijah was a great prophet and was TAKEN AWAY from earth in a chariot of fire..
Even though in 1Kings we can see that Elijah didn't trust God to keep him when his life was threatened by Jezebel and we have no records of completion of Enoch ,no one, not even Abraham was perfect, only ONE ;God's son walked in perfection and sinned not. The bible states that God even spared NOT the angels that sinned
1 John 1:10 (8-10 context)
If we say we have NOT sinned ,we make him a LIAR and his word is not in us.
Do not be self deceived by your desire to be so perfect here. We can confess to our advocate and receive forgiveness.


.G....We must obey and it is our choice for if we do not then there will be consequences against us. There are so many conditions in God's word that ppl refuse to see and I cannot fathom this. If it say go YOU GO....If it's says don't then YOU DONT....If it say you must then YOU MUST.....God expects and requires obedience of us in our reading of his will. No man knows the mind of God, only the Spirit and Christ have this knowledge. We however better be studying, praying, seeking and asking to be IN CHRIST that we to may be privy to God !
 

Michiah-Imla

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no one, not even Abraham was perfect

“Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.” (Genesis 6:9)

“the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.” (Genesis 17:1)

“Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.” (Deuteronomy 18:13)

“There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.” (Job 1:1)

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)

If we say we have NOT sinned ,we make him a LIAR and his word is not in us.

I see your Bible is missing the rest of 1 John. More of 1 John for you:

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” (1 John 3:6)

No man knows the mind of God, only the Spirit and Christ have this knowledge

“For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 2:16)

If you have the mind of Christ, no unsavory thought should spend more than a few seconds in your brain before you squash it!

There is NO ONE who has walked in perfection on this earth except Jesus

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:6)

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” (John 14:12)
 
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Michiah-Imla

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But what about James 3:2?

You never seem to comment on that.

Sure thing brother:

“My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:1-2)

We all offend in many things. Things like these:

“I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of:” (Romans 14:14-16)

We disagree on the topic of wine. It is my assertion that wine is unclean only to you and as well to others. But I see in scripture that wine is not unclean and can be consumed in moderation (especially for illness). But in order to fellowship with you I would not drink wine. Neither would I lord it over you as a master that wine is harmless. I would not be a “many masters” as the scriptures say.

There are many things that men have personal offense to, in these we do indeed offend all. But we do not offend God when we are following his word.
 

amigo de christo

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Warnings ABOUT “falling from FAITH”, DO NOT APPLY, to “MEN CONVERTED IN CHIRST!”


What a heaping bunch of poooooo!

All the scriptures about FALLING AWAY FROM FAITH are for those professing Christ !
Maybe a look at scripture through the Spirit is needed.
You can not fall away from something you have zero part in.........

The scripture is so twisted that follows someone who quotes you CANT FALL AWAY.......THEY NEVER WERE OF US.
1John 2:19 ( context 17-20)
This verse in context ,not just pulled ad lib for the cause is talking about antichrist that come in among to deceive ppl. The Spirit will so condemn those coming in to deceive that they cannot stand it, therefore they have to go.
No where in that verse does it say fallen away but went !

V.17............but he that DOETH THE WILL OF GOD ABIDETH FOR EVER.
Its so true that all the apostels warned the early church about being on gaurd , about enduring to the end
About not being led away with the error of the wicked and falling from their own steadfastness .
The creation of an acyromn has accused even Christ himself who said , BUT THOSE WHO ENDURE TO THE END , the same shall be saved .
IF JESUS , paul , peter , jude all talked about not falling away , and even warned what happend when angels fell from their first estate ,
IF paul warned massive TO CONTINUE IN THE GOODNESS of GOD , to not be highminded ,
For we are made partakers of CHRIST IF WE HOLD , IF WE HOLD our confidence we had at the first Firm to the END .
THERE are so many warnings from Christ and the apostels , and yet an acryonm has made all who would warn now
To be seen as legalistic , as not trusting in Christ . WHEN IN TRUTH ITS THEY WHO TRUST NOT IN CHRIST
HE said IT , PETER said it , jude reminded about it , paul said it in quite a few letters .
SO who is trusting in men . IS IT THE ONES who take JESUS and HIS EVERY Warning serious , the apostels and their warnings serious ,
OR is it the ones who BLOW off every warning . I TELL US ALL an acronym has destroyed an essential part of the faith .
THE PART that reminds us , which makes us alert and has us to be diligent , AND THROWS IT RIGHT Out the DOOR .
EVER Wonder why the acroymn crowd has destroyed even their own churches . NO serious folks there . JUST those who
rebuke folks like me who even remind us to be hearers and doers , who remind us to stay the course in JESUS firm to the end .
WHO remnid us GOD wont be mocked . YET THE APOSTELS ALL DID IT . THEY have no idea what they have done .
I SEE hardly anyone in that camp that is even serious against the dangers of said sin . and how it can harden a heart
NOPE they just holler at those who use pauls reminders , or JESUS , or judes , or james , or even johns
or peters reminders . THEY accuse EVEN CHRIST and the apostles . IF they all showed up in CHURCHES of the acroynm
Those churches would tell JESUS and all the apostels , SLOW DOWN BUDS , YALL DONT KNOW JESUS , YOUR ALL PHARISEES .
Cause all i do is REMIND with THEIR OWN REMINDERS and look at what i get called exactly .
 

theefaith

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Warnings ABOUT “falling from FAITH”, DO NOT APPLY, to “MEN CONVERTED IN CHIRST!”


What a heaping bunch of poooooo!

All the scriptures about FALLING AWAY FROM FAITH are for those professing Christ !
Maybe a look at scripture through the Spirit is needed.
You can not fall away from something you have zero part in.........

The scripture is so twisted that follows someone who quotes you CANT FALL AWAY.......THEY NEVER WERE OF US.
1John 2:19 ( context 17-20)
This verse in context ,not just pulled ad lib for the cause is talking about antichrist that come in among to deceive ppl. The Spirit will so condemn those coming in to deceive that they cannot stand it, therefore they have to go.
No where in that verse does it say fallen away but went !

V.17............but he that DOETH THE WILL OF GOD ABIDETH FOR EVER.

they can’t sin either??
 

atpollard

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that’s very different than rejection of baptism by “faith alone”!
“Baptists” have NEVER rejected baptism … we sort of make a pretty big deal about it. A big enough deal that Paedobaptists have historically DROWN baptists for insisting on baptizing adults that make a profession of faith.


What we have rejected is the folly that God cannot save unless a man helps by sprinkling magic water.
 

mailmandan

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so you’re not saved in hope?
What part of faith is the assurance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1) do you not understand?

Christ alone?
Who else died on the cross for our sins? Christ alone.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
The Father testifies of the Son. To believe on him that sent me is to believe on Christ. Jesus is God.

Not Christ alone must also believe on the Father who sent Christ!
A distinction without a difference since the Father testifies of the Son and Jesus is God. I believe on the Father who sent Christ and the Son. John 6:40 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

You believe on/in purgatory, works and your church. Whatever you are trusting in for salvation that's what you believe on/in.
 
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mailmandan

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I don't think that answered the question.

Do you claim to be 100% without any sin, like Christ, from moment to moment 24/7 or do you admit that, just as James 3:2 makes clear, you still stumble at times - even with the Spirit's assistance and guidance?

Yes.

John 14:12
1 Peter 4:1..
I'm still waiting on an apology from GEN2REV for calling me a liar for saying that Michiah-Imla teaches sinless perfection.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

St. Francis de Sales commented:

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:

ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:

These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)

Indulgences are graces merited by the passion and blood of Christ.

They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)

Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)

The RCC, Origin, Augustine, Iraneus, Tertulian, Ambrose, Jerome, Cyproan amd many others misinterpreted scripture. Many scholars do now on various doctrines. Most all the scripture you presented either pertain to life, refinement and/or punishment ON EARTH BEFORE WE DIE.
(Psalm 66:12; Isaiah 4:4; Malachi 3:3)

Micah 7:9 - refers to bearing,punishment fir sins in his life on earth and then Christ's deliverance of the OT saints in a section of Hades,(known as Paradise) just after He died on the cross.
refers to chastisement while living and/or punishment in Hell, no intermediate location.
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.. Read the context.,the whole chapter is Jesus teaching the Beattitudes, how to live, to be salt and light, conditions of the heart. marriage, etc. This verse is just telling them to resolve issues with brothers before they go to the altar and offer a sacrifice.
Matthew 12:32 contains a serious charge against those who speak against the Holy Spirit, blaspheming ... the unforgivable sin,
which is tue judgment of Hell
1 Cor. 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
After our Christian lives are over, we go to be with the LORD. The Great White Throne Judgment not only judges the ungodly sinners in Hades, but judges Christians works done in order to receive gifts. Whatever works we did, as loving servants for His Kingdom endures the testing. All then other works, occupations we had, worldly accomplishments, homes, Oscars, hit songs, whatever are tested with firw and burned up. Those things do not count for anything, only what the Holy Spirit prepared fir us to do in love and service count. And those works are rewarded. Like Mother Teresa's love towards and sacrificial life - big rewards for her. Billy Graham will get big rewards too. Me, maybe a few, but I"ll get into heaven.
>>> When we die, we are either eacorted to Hades awaiting for final judgment inbthe Lake of Fire (Hell), OR we if saved, washed by His blood, go directly to Heaven to be with the LORD.
Our spiritual state is fixed at death, you are either going to one place or the other.
Jesus said, "There is one life, one death and then the judgment."