2 answers to 2 questions on the O.D.

[covenantee]

Direct Question:
Randy Will You Deny That "The Consummation" Seen Below Is "The Ultimate End"?

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination is a "Future" event unfulfilled, just as Daniel 9:27 below clearly teaches, the future bad guy will be present on earth to the very "Consummation" or "Ultimate End" a "Future" event unfulfilled, it's that simple, and scripture isn't going to change

The words "Even Until The Consummation" destroys your eschatology's claim in 70AD fulfillment "Gone"

Randy you have been shown this scriptural truth several times, yet you continue to teach otherwise

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end :Finish

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

From Daniel 9:27 Hebrew:

kā·lāh
כָּלָה֙
the consummation
N‑fs

Strong's Concordance
kalah: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation
Original Word: כָּלָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: kalah
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-law')
Definition: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Referring to the complete destruction and annihilation of the nation of Israel in 70 AD.

Prophesied by Daniel, corroborated by Jesus.

Disproving dispensational futurist fantasy and fallacy.

 

[Truth7t7]

From Daniel 9:27 Hebrew:

kā·lāh
כָּלָה֙
the consummation
N‑fs

Strong's Concordance
kalah: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation
Original Word: כָּלָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: kalah
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-law')
Definition: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Referring to the complete destruction and annihilation of the nation of Israel in 70 AD.

Prophesied by Daniel, corroborated by Jesus.

Disproving dispensational futurist fantasy and fallacy.

I Strongly Disagree, The Consummation Will Be The Ultimate End As Seen Below

It Appears There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[covenantee]

I Strongly Disagree, The Consummation Will Be The Ultimate End As Seen Below

It Appears There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You disagree with the definition and description of consummation in Daniel 9:27?

You'll have to take that up with Bro. Strong.

I'm confident that his Hebrew is better than yours.

 

[Truth7t7]

You disagree with the definition and description of consummation in Daniel 9:27?

You'll have to take that up with Bro. Strong.

I'm confident that his Hebrew is better than yours.

I Fully Agree With Strong's, Your Looking At The "Complete Destruction" Below In The Consummation, The Ultimate End By "Fire"!

kā·lāh
כָּלָה֙
the consummation
N‑fs
Strong's Concordance
kalah: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation
Original Word: כָּלָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: kalah
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-law')
Definition: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[covenantee]

I Fully Agree With Strong, Your Looking At The "Complete Destruction" Below In The Consummation, The Ultimate End

kā·lāh
כָּלָה֙
the consummation
N‑fs

Strong's Concordance
kalah: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation
Original Word: כָּלָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: kalah
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-law')
Definition: completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation

Referring to the complete destruction and annihilation of the nation of Israel in 70 AD.

Prophesied by Daniel, corroborated by Jesus.

Disproving dispensational futurist fantasy and fallacy.
I Strongly Disagree, The Consummation Will Be The Ultimate End As Seen Below

It Appears There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You cited all of that already.

You're missing Matthew 24:15, in which Jesus refers to Daniel 9:27.

The consummation, i.e. complete destruction and annihilation, of the nation of Israel in 70 AD.

 

[Truth7t7]

You cited all of that already.

You're missing Matthew 24:15, in which Jesus refers to Daniel 9:27.

The consummation, i.e. complete destruction and annihilation, of the nation of Israel in 70 AD.

Not one word in Daniel 9:27 mentions Israel as you claim, that's your misinterpretation in supporting your preterist 70AD teaching in historical fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 "Wrong"

Daniel 9:27 represents future events unfulfilled, that will see the antichrist on earth at the consummation or ultimate end

The words "Even Until The Consummation" destroys your eschatology's claim in 70AD fulfillment "Gone"

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end :Finish

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Enoch111]

And you?

I am just a Biblicist and the Bible reveals both Covenants and Dispensations (which run more or less parallel). Since Scripture actually speaks of "the dispensation of the fulness of times" it is clear that you have swallowed all the baloney which attacks Dispensationalism. While I do not subscribe 100% to how the dispensations are presented, there is no question that God deals with humans in different ways at different times.

 

[covenantee]

I am just a Biblicist and the Bible reveals both Covenants and Dispensations (which run more or less parallel). Since Scripture actually speaks of "the dispensation of the fulness of times" it is clear that you have swallowed all the baloney which attacks Dispensationalism. While I do not subscribe 100% to how the dispensations are presented, there is no question that God deals with humans in different ways at different times.

Why are you avoiding the main issue?

The ideology is known as "dispensational futurism".

The main issue is the modernist futurism which denies historical Scriptural fulfillment, rejecting a clear majority of historical Christian orthodoxy for over 17 centuries.

In comparison, dispensations are a minor distraction.

 

[covenantee]

Not one word in Daniel 9:27 mentions Israel as you claim, that's your misinterpretation in supporting your preterist 70AD teaching in historical fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 "Wrong"

Daniel 9:27 represents future events unfulfilled, that will see the antichrist on earth at the consummation or ultimate end

The words "Even Until The Consummation" destroys your eschatology's claim in 70AD fulfillment "Gone"

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end :Finish

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Not one word in Daniel 9:27 mentions antichrist as you claim, that's your misinterpretation in supporting your futurist teaching of the unfulfillment of Daniel 9:27 "Wrong"

Daniel 9:27 is completely historically and Scripturally fulfilled.

Merriam-Webster didn't write Daniel 9:27.

The Holy Spirit and Daniel wrote it.

In Hebrew.

Ably translated by Bro. Strong.

You should read it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Apparently you have not studied the word as I have or you wouldn't say that.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

G3778
οὗτος, οὗτοι, αὕτη, αὕται
houtos houtoi hautē hautai
hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee
Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or that (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
Total KJV occurrences: 352

I can appreciate your Greek studies. The reason the translators used "this" is because in context it fit better than "that." And they know better than amateur translators do!

Of course, translators aren't perfect either. But I don't see *any* translations that saying "that generation."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy you move from the "Literal" interpretation of men's hearts failing because of signs in the sun, moon, stars, distress of the worlds nations,, and the heavens shaken (The End)

Randy you remove this factual literal interpretation, and replace it with your private symbolic "misinterpretation" of men's hearts failing "because the Jewish religion failed" that's a big head shake, eyes still rolling

Luke 21:25-26KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

To be honest, I'm not sure what "signs in the sun, moon, and stars" even mean? What is the "shaken heavens?" It sounds like apocalyptic language--perhaps a poetic way of saying that celestial rule is changing hands from Satan to God. It sounds as if the fragility of the temporal universe is literally showing its shortcomings, whatever that *literally* means?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Direct Question:
Randy Will You Deny That "The Consummation" Seen Below Is "The Ultimate End"?

I answered your question already. There is disputation surrounding what the verse means. Either way, it does not affect my interpretation of the passage overall. Whether it means that Jerusalem will be destroyed, or that the desolator of Jerusalem will be destroyed, or that the age will come to an end, it *makes no difference in my overall view of this passage!*

70 Weeks of years lead up to the 1st Coming of Messiah, and the rise of Roman leadership leads to 1st the completion of Jesus' earthly ministry, 2nd the death of Christ, and 3rd the destruction of the temple worship, ie the old covenant relationship of God to Israel. What the "consummation" refers to is not integral to this perspective.

You seem to think every single word and verse needs to be perfectly understood in order to have a sound eschatology. Not true.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"NO" the generation of Jesus didn't witness Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD, Matthew 24:21The Great Tribulation, or Matthew 24:30 The Literal, Visible, Return Of Jesus In The Heavens, These Are Future Events Unfulfilled

You're certainly not answering my position, brother, because I don't hold to this view either! My argument was that Jesus' generation would see the birth pangs leading up to and including the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The age of Jewish Tribulation only began at that point, and certainly Jesus' generation would not see all of it, being that they would have to live throughout the NT era!

Neither would Jesus' generation see Jesus' Return being that he comes *after* the tribulation of the NT era. And that tribulation is defined by Jesus as being "Jewish Punishment."

Clearly, you have no answer for these things. I don't mind disagreement. But not once have you successfully negated my statement that Jesus defined the Great Tribulation as "Jewish Punishment* throughout the NT era! You just continue to argue your own position.

Don't you care to agree with the Lord on this? Or, is winning arguments your most important aim here?

If you truly care to embrace God's truth, you're going to have to be willing to give up your own pride and accept, openly, what Jesus said about the Great Tribulation. But you don't seem to be willing to do that?

Have I done that? Yes--many times! I've had to change my beliefs, even after strongly arguing them for years! My interest is in making Jesus Lord, and not my own beliefs. I embrace my brothers regardless not because I agree with them but because I serve the Lord, and He loves us all. And He wants us to be agreeable with one another.

 

[ewq1938]

I can appreciate your Greek studies. The reason the translators used "this" is because in context it fit better than "that." And they know better than amateur translators do!

Of course, translators aren't perfect either. But I don't see *any* translations that saying "that generation."

"this generation" still can have the same meaning of "that generation" being the generation described but not listening. "One day a generation of men will see men colonizing different galaxies. This generation will be happy to accomplish that."

I'm in no way saying my own generation or yours is the generation to see that. I am speaking of a future generation.

The fact that the word can mean this or that further strengthens the argument. Never did Christ say "your generation".

 

[Randy Kluth]

"this generation" still can have the same meaning of "that generation" being the generation described but not listening. "One day a generation of men will see men colonizing different galaxies. This generation will be happy to accomplish that."

I'm in no way saying my own generation or yours is the generation to see that. I am speaking of a future generation.

The fact that the word can mean this or that further strengthens the argument. Never did Christ say "your generation".

On the contrary, Jesus directed all of his comments at "you," meaning the disciples. And the focus was on the Jewish People, largely unbelievers and apostates, but including the righteous disciples of Jesus. This had no reference to an endtime group of Christians who see the Antichristian Great Tribulation, or who see a complete list of signs that apply more to the disciples of Jesus in his time than to Christians in our own time.

 

[covenantee]

On the contrary, Jesus directed all of his comments at "you," meaning the disciples. And the focus was on the Jewish People, largely unbelievers and apostates, but including the righteous disciples of Jesus. This had no reference to an endtime group of Christians who see the Antichristian Great Tribulation, or who see a complete list of signs that apply more to the disciples of Jesus in his time than to Christians in our own time.

As you previously observed, not one English Bible version translates it as "that generation".

Fire that at him a few times.

Eventually, I would expect to see him say what he says about more than 17 centuries of historical Christian prophetic exegesis.

"They are wrong".

Such is the unsurpassed arrogance and ignorance of the modernist cult of dispensational futurism.

 

[ewq1938]

On the contrary, Jesus directed all of his comments at "you," meaning the disciples.

He was speaking to the future generation that would read those words and actually see all the things he described.

 

[covenantee]

He was speaking to the future generation that would read those words and actually see all the things he described.

Dispensational futurism.

Cultism on parade.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As you previously observed, not one English Bible version translates it as "that generation".

Fire that at him a few times.

Eventually, I would expect to see him say what he says about more than 17 centuries of historical Christian prophetic exegesis.

"They are wrong".

Such is the unsurpassed arrogance and ignorance of the modernist cult of dispensational futurism.

Yea, I know....

 

[Randy Kluth]

He was speaking to the future generation that would read those words and actually see all the things he described.

Surely you see how absurd your argument is here? Jesus is saying "you" not to the people he was looking at but to a nameless group in the future who would suddenly say, "He, I think he was speaking of me?"

Hal Lindsey has a lot of people to answer to with his definition of "this generation." Not only was that bad interpretation, but his prophecy, based on that interpretation, didn't come true. The generation that saw the rebirth of the State of Israel did *not* see the Rapture in 40 years, nor in 70 years. And those who follow him are making the same error.