2 answers to 2 questions on the O.D.

[ewq1938]

Surely you see how absurd your argument is here? Jesus is saying "you" not to the people he was looking at but to a nameless group in the future who would suddenly say, "He, I think he was speaking of me?"

It's hardly absurd. None of the events happened in the disciples lifetimes so we know without a doubt that he was saying "you" to future "yous".
This is how most prophecy works. The prophecy is written and people of that generation read it but the fulfillment is not in their lifetimes but FAR into the future.

 

[covenantee]

It's hardly absurd. None of the events happened in the disciples lifetimes so we know without a doubt that he was saying "you" to future "yous".
This is how most prophecy works. The prophecy is written and people of that generation read it but the fulfillment is not in their lifetimes but FAR into the future.

He thinks that Jesus was only joking.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for His name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Stephen. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

 

[Marty fox]

He thinks that Jesus was only joking.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for His name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Stephen. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

Amen great post

 

[n2thelight]

Jesus did not say these things would all happen in "one generation." He said it would all happen in "this generation," meaning his own generation.

Question on that generation thing

Matthew 23:33-35; "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" [33] "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of the shall ye scourge in your syagogues, and persecute the from city to city: [34] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Able unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the Temple and the altar." [35]

Did that generation Christ was in kill the prophets ?

 

[ewq1938]

Question on that generation thing

Matthew 23:33-35; "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" [33] "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of the shall ye scourge in your syagogues, and persecute the from city to city: [34] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Able unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the Temple and the altar." [35]

Did that generation Christ was in kill the prophets ?

Good point. He said "ye" but he wasn't talking just about those people in that present generation but people from past generations that killed prophets from long before and if that is correct, and it is, then he can say "you" and speak of a future generation.

 

[covenantee]

Question on that generation thing

Matthew 23:33-35; "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" [33] "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of the shall ye scourge in your syagogues, and persecute the from city to city: [34] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Able unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the Temple and the altar." [35]

Did that generation Christ was in kill the prophets ?

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:29
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

[Truth7t7]

Not one word in Daniel 9:27 mentions antichrist as you claim, that's your misinterpretation in supporting your futurist teaching of the unfulfillment of Daniel 9:27 "Wrong"

Daniel 9:27 is completely historically and Scripturally fulfilled.

Merriam-Webster didn't write Daniel 9:27.

The Holy Spirit and Daniel wrote it.

In Hebrew.

Ably translated by Bro. Strong.

You should read it.

"Consummation" is the future Ultimate End, you aren't going to change scripture

Once again, Yes I agree with Strong's definition in "Complete Destruction", and this didn't take place historically, in your claims of 70AD Jerusalem fulfillment

 

[covenantee]

"Consummation" is the future Ultimate End, you aren't going to change scripture

Your consummation isn't Scripture. It's Merriam-Webster.

Daniel's consummation is Holy-Spirit-inspired Scripture.

See the difference?

 

[Truth7t7]

Your consummation isn't Scripture. It's Merriam-Webster.

Daniel's consummation is Holy-Spirit-inspired Scripture.

See the difference?

"Consummation" is the future Ultimate End, you aren't going to change scripture

Once again, Yes I agree with Strong's definition in "Complete Destruction", and this didn't take place historically, in your claims of 70AD Jerusalem fulfillment

 

[Truth7t7]

To be honest, I'm not sure what "signs in the sun, moon, and stars" even mean? What is the "shaken heavens?" It sounds like apocalyptic language--perhaps a poetic way of saying that celestial rule is changing hands from Satan to God. It sounds as if the fragility of the temporal universe is literally showing its shortcomings, whatever that *literally* means?

If the literal doesn't fit your narrative in teaching, it's removed through symbolic allegory "Apocalyptic Language" this being a prime example

 

[covenantee]

Good point. He said "ye" but he wasn't talking just about those people in that present generation but people from past generations that killed prophets from long before and if that is correct, and it is, then he can say "you" and speak of a future generation.

Predictable nonsense.

The "ye" and "you" of whom Jesus spoke referred to the present reality of that time, and to fulfilled historical reality of the OT era.

The "ye" and "you" of dispensational futurism is unfulfilled futurized fantasy.

Those without spiritual blinders recognize the difference.

Those with them, don't.

 

[covenantee]

"Consummation" is the future Ultimate End, you aren't going to change scripture

Once again, Yes I agree with Strong's definition in "Complete Destruction", and this didn't take place historically, in your claims of 70AD Jerusalem fulfillment

Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70 AD, confirmed both by Scripture and history.

 

[Truth7t7]

What the "consummation" refers to is not integral to this perspective.

You seem to think every single word and verse needs to be perfectly understood in order to have a sound eschatology. Not true.

The word consummation is the very foundation interpreting Daniel 9:27 and its timing

This verse clearly teaches the bad guy seen will be present on earth until the "consummation" or "ultimate end" a future event unfulfilled

This word "Consummation" destroys your claims that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled historically in 66-70AD Jerusalem, Of course you want to disregard this scriptural truth to maintain your teaching

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[covenantee]

The word consummation is the very foundation interpretation Daniel 9:27

This verse clearly teaches the bad guy seen will be present on earth until the "consummation" or "ultimate end"

This word "Consummation" destroys your claims that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled historically in 66-70AD Jerusalem

Of course you want to disregard this scriptural truth, because it destroys your claims of 66-70AD fulfillment

Jesus Is The Lord

There's no bad guy in Daniel 9:27. That is dispensational futurist fantasy and fallacy.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70 AD, confirmed both by Scripture and history.

Jerusalem being destroyed in 70AD has absolutely no association to Daniel 9:27, that are future events unfulfilled

 

[Truth7t7]

There's no bad guy in Daniel 9:27. That is dispensational futurist fantasy and fallacy.

Last time I checked, good guy's don't make or cause desolation

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[covenantee]

Jerusalem being destroyed in 70AD has absolutely no association to Daniel 9:27, that are future events unfulfilled

Jesus in Matthew 24:15 and the parallel synoptic Gospels affirmed Daniel's description of the destruction of Jerusalem in Daniel 9:27 in 70 AD.

 

[covenantee]

Last time I checked, good guy's don't make or cause desolation

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Messiah the Prince was and is a Good Guy.

He desolated Jerusalem until its consummated complete destruction, using the Roman armies as His agents of judgment and complete annihilation.

Exactly as Daniel foretold.

 

[Truth7t7]

You're certainly not answering my position, brother, because I don't hold to this view either! My argument was that Jesus' generation would see the birth pangs leading up to and including the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The age of Jewish Tribulation only began at that point, and certainly Jesus' generation would not see all of it, being that they would have to live throughout the NT era!

Neither would Jesus' generation see Jesus' Return being that he comes *after* the tribulation of the NT era. And that tribulation is defined by Jesus as being "Jewish Punishment."

Clearly, you have no answer for these things. I don't mind disagreement. But not once have you successfully negated my statement that Jesus defined the Great Tribulation as "Jewish Punishment* throughout the NT era! You just continue to argue your own position.

Don't you care to agree with the Lord on this? Or, is winning arguments your most important aim here?

If you truly care to embrace God's truth, you're going to have to be willing to give up your own pride and accept, openly, what Jesus said about the Great Tribulation. But you don't seem to be willing to do that?

Have I done that? Yes--many times! I've had to change my beliefs, even after strongly arguing them for years! My interest is in making Jesus Lord, and not my own beliefs. I embrace my brothers regardless not because I agree with them but because I serve the Lord, and He loves us all. And He wants us to be agreeable with one another.

You have been clearly shown several times that Daniel's AOD seen in Matthew 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 didn't take place in 66-70AD as you claim, it's future unfulfilled

You can't have a fulfillment of Matthew 24:21 in a great tribulation, because Daniel's AOD causes or starts the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21, it's that simple

 

[Truth7t7]

Messiah the Prince was and is a Good Guy.

He desolated Jerusalem until its consummated complete destruction, using the Roman armies as His agents of judgment and complete annihilation.

Exactly as Daniel foretold.

"NO" Jesus Christ isn't the "He" in Daniel 9:27 making desolation upon earth, as reformed eschatology falsely claims