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Featured 2. Could Pharaoh Have Repented?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Helen, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    My point was that we need to figure the claims of repentance us here and now in this dispensation.
     
  2. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Don’t know. Just do what He says. If all our reading and laboring over the Word has not delivered the knowledge God is always good and we should trust Him in all things...then what we are doing is in vain.
     
  3. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    The whole of Scripture is profitable, indeed. Good for conclusions about us now to be particularly centered on what the situation of people is in the New Testament age of grace.

    (I guess my thinking is strongly influenced by Dispensationalism.)
     
  4. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Seems to contradict made whole.
     
  5. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Well, I wouldn't be expected to agree... :)
     
  6. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    :) You have to understand this is coming from one who doesn’t understand dispensationalism.
     
  7. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Stated differently, The church is not Israel.

    The Holy Spirit, by the influence of Whom a person repents, has indwelt Christians since Pentecost, Acts 2.

    (You see the relevance of the dispensational aspect? whether you agree with it or not, you see why I mentioned it?)
     
  8. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi ViJ,

    There is another understanding to "raised you up", which is that God made Pharoah to stand, that is, sustained him..

    Young's Literal Translation shows "And yet for this I have caused thee to stand, so as to show thee My power, and for the sake of declaring My Name in all the earth;"

    The LXX also shows "sustained you".

    God kept Pharoah alive and well so that God could continue all of His plagues. I don't believe God created Pharoah to be a sinner, so that he could sin without repentance.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
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  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi ViJ,

    The simplest understanding of Dispensationalism I've come across is that while Abraham was saved by believing what God told him, just like we are saved by believing what God tells us, what God told Abraham was different than what God tells us today.

    As God continued to work out His salvation plan, different dispensations - house management - reflect the different revelations given.

    We are saved by grace through faith, by trusting in Jesus. Those under the Law were saved by grace through faith as they offered up sacrifices. They didn't know Jesus, and we don't offer sacrifices. But we are saved nonetheless.

    Helpful?

    Much love!
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  10. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Would agree up until the above quote. No. Don’t think God created anyone to be a sinner anymore than you. Anyone. Not just Pharaoh or Judas. But the word does say the potter has the right to form the clay to use for His purpose. Not offended in this. here is a God that put all the despised filth without the gate(camp)...the very place He was lifted up for the despised, poor and rejected ‘unclean’ filth. (Including the unclean leper’s). Leviticus 13:44-46
    [44] He is a leprous man, he is unclean: the priest shall pronounce him utterly unclean; his plague is in his head. [45] And the leper in whom the plague is , his clothes shall be rent, and his head bare, and he shall put a covering upon his upper lip, and shall cry, Unclean, unclean. [46] All the days wherein the plague shall be in him he shall be defiled; he is unclean: he shall dwell alone; without the camp shall his habitation be .
    ^offensive? Not so because it isn’t over yet...Hebrews 13:12-14 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. [14] For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

    God’s goodness all should know. It is amazing. Should we doubt or curse or complain over what we don’t yet understand? ...like Pharaoh or Judas?
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Would God's goodness, which is truly amazing, not hold true for Pharoah?

    Should we ascribe to God the source of sin? If God made Pharoah to be an unrepentant sinner, then God is responsible for the sin in the man's life.

    But if God made Pharoah to be a man who would make moral choices, and would either believe God or not, and God allowed Pharoah to make the wrong choices, and knowing what Pharoah would choose, then went on to use what He knew, then Pharoah remains responsible.

    That's how I see it.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
  12. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Helpful way of putting it... :)
     
  13. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    You ask hard questions. I don’t know. All I know is several years ago if anyone would have pointed out what I was doing was wrong...I would have rolled my eyes and carried on with it. Only want to attribute God with opening my eyes because I was blind. Not saying it was anything I’ve done to see, that’s all. Was God the cause and blame for my sin? No. But it was His timing when I became aware of those sins.

    Romans 8:20-21
    [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    All I’m saying is of Pharaoh: perhaps only God knows. How can we claim to know for sure when we can’t even agree on the simple things. Just because God subjected the creature to vanity doesn’t make Him responsible but then we are told He had His ‘reason’...and we also see that subjecting it to vanity is not the end of the matter but ...the same creation is subjected to Hope. Is God evil for subjecting the creation to vanity which then brings the bondage of corruption...still not the end of the matter but that all will be delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God...end of the curse into blessing.

    Revelation 17:17
    [17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    God puts in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and to give their kingdom unto the beast....until the words of God shall be fulfilled. —to give their kingdom unto the beast. What does he put in their heart? ...but that is not the end of the matter is it? That is all I’m saying: their is a chance we don’t know as much as we think we know even when speaking of Pharaoh. Or Judas.
     
  14. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi ViJ,

    I think that when the Bible says that God is holy, well, since holy means to be set apart for God's use, to me in saying God is holy means that God is Always true to Himself. I believe that God is righteous, and never initiates unrighteousness.

    God may set people in their ways, but I don't believe He chooses those ways for them.

    Through the prophet He said Stand at the ways and look, and ask for the good way. Why would that be?

    Much love!
    Mark
     
  15. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and where is that point for each person? God knows and sometimes to help us understand He is more specific:

    "Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;" Num 14:22
     
  16. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Not quite, but closer! Some people born blind remain always blind and have no real interest in be able to see. [This is regarding the vision of the Spirit rather than the vision of the flesh.] Then there is someone who has vision in a measure and prays that God will give another person such a vision. ["... the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16]. So God in response opens the person's eyes, but that is NOT salvation. That is enough vision to allow the person to make an informed choice. If he still choose the way of mammon rather than the Way of God he has indeed understand his choice and his result is really of his own making.

    No one prays another "into the kingdom" but he can pray so that the person will realize enough of
    what that kingdom [of God] is to make a real decision for or against God.
     
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  17. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Well-Known Member

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    On the other side of the equation, Romans 1:18 tells us, "But God shows His anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked, people who suppress the truth by their wickedness." Later in the same chapter, it tells us that God abandoned the pagans to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. I think that God, even though He is very patient, at some point, He becomes so disgusted with an individual that He abandons them to the devil. Not sure there is any coming back from that.
     
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