22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

I am not going to answer until you admit that Ezekiel was not a false prophet. If you think he was a false prophet, then what good would it do for me to prove anything from that text? I see no events or situations, predicted by Ezekiel, that align with history. I believe that Ezekiel speaks truly. Therefore . . .?

That is a silly question, and you know it. No Amil believes he was a false prophet. Why ask such an absurd question? Now, please address the question, and stop avoiding.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This seems like a cop out. What are you afraid of here?

Let me just spell out why I'm asking this. Earlier, you said that the animal sacrifices would not be for the atonement of sins. But, the animal sacrifices described in Ezekiel 40-48 would be for the atonement of sins, as described in Ezekiel 45:15-17. So, what are your thoughts on that?

Saying that my post is a cop out is prejudicial language and an appeal to emotion. Instead of asking me "what are you afraid of here?" Ask me, "what is at stake here?" I am not afraid of the truth as you seem to suggest.

I'll tell you want is at stake. I am not convinced that the final chapters of Ezekiel are fulfilled in history yet. I could be wrong but I don't think so, for the reasons I said earlier. Consider Ezekiel chapter 45 for instance. In that chapter we witness at least two (if not more) unique innovations to the original covenant that have not been realized in history. First, Ezekiel says that the prince will offer the sacrifices instead of the priest. Second, the land will be parceled out differently than before.

 

[Truth7t7]

These verses are speaking of a time after the Millennial Period.

Those verses speak about his second coming in fire and final judgment (The End), we will add a few more below

You falsely believe in the second coming, then a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "Wrong"

You don't want to see the fire in destruction at the Lord's return, because it removes your claim of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Jesus Is The Lord

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm referring to your regular attack on me as being a "Zionist." I call that "Anti-Zionist," or the same, "Anti-Semitic." Only the ignorant would not know that anti-Zionism is anti-Israel. That's how the enemies of Israel depict it, as "Anti-Zionism." They hate Zionism!

I visited Israel and actually tried to sign up to work *for free* on a kibbutz, and was nearly accepted. There were extenuating circumstances, and I was turned down.

So, yes, you could say I'm a "Zionist." I like B. Netanyahu and hope he becomes president again. And I strongly believe the world should support the independence of the Jewish state, along with defensible borders.

I feel the same way about Ukraine and Taiwan. Some things are simply a matter of justice, and not anything to do with disputes over doctrine.

Your beliefs and teachings are Christian Zionism 100%

Your claims that I'm attacking you are 100% false, sorta like liberal democrats shouting racist at everybody that disagrees with them

 

[Truth7t7]

With regard to Malachi 3:2, he employs figurative language -- a refiner's fire -- to speak about the day of his coming. In Malachi 4, the fire is real fire, but in that context, the fire is limited to Palestine.

Oh the fire is limited to Palestine?

Luke the Apostle and Nahum the Prophet below shows your claim to be "False" the entire world will be burned in the presence of the Lords second coming

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[Truth7t7]

It must be a loooooooong shout that they all respond to.

Will you continue to mock God's holy words of truth below, beware!

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Does what? I can't read your mind. Give me an example of what you're talking about.

You give a "like" to many of his posts so I don't know why you haven't seen it yourself.

Do you know how to search the thread? I don't. I should learn. I would look for the word "Premils", which WPM uses often.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm not seeing any logic here at all. God commanded animal sacrifices long ago and they were performed as a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice (Hebrews 10:1). How exactly does that turn into animal sacrifices being performed again in the future?

Which passage exactly are you talking about? I only referenced the book of Deuteronomy in general and not any particular passage. Honestly, I think it's insane to think that anything in Deuteronomy has anything to do with a future Millennium. The sacrifices talked about there were the old covenant sacrifices.

Yes, of course God commanded them a long time ago. And yes, one particular sacrifice foreshadowed the cross. But this does not mean that God won't institute them again. I don't dismiss them as easily as you do.

The Lord will once again institute the sacrifices during that time in our future when God chooses to sanctify his holy name.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is a silly question, and you know it. No Amil believes he was a false prophet. Why ask such an absurd question? Now, please address the question, and stop avoiding.

What you say you believe is not always revealed in your arguments. You say you believe he is a false prophet, but your argument says otherwise. I didn't bring up Ezekiel 45, you did. And you never once proved that Ezekiel 45 was fulfilled, because I didn't let you. I cut to the chase showing you that it couldn't have been fulfilled. I told you already, several times, that Ezekiel 45 is not a problem for my view and you would know this if you took the time to understand MY view.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Those verses speak about his second coming in fire and final judgment (The End), we will add a few more below

You falsely believe in the second coming, then a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "Wrong"

You don't want to see the fire in destruction at the Lord's return, because it removes your claim of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Jesus Is The Lord

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Okay. Believe what you want about me. I have studied this subject and I know that while God brings fire during the run-up to the Day of the Lord, that fire is NOT the grand whoosh mentioned by Peter. THAT fire destroys the entire planet. The fire in Malachi doesn't

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your beliefs and teachings are Christian Zionism 100%

Your claims that I'm attacking you are 100% false, sorta like liberal democrats shouting racist at everybody that disagrees with them

Yes, I'm pro-Zionist. And you are clearly anti-Zionist, which is the same thing as being anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. I'm referring to the use of "Zionism" as a term of contempt, as opposed to opposition to some of Israel's expansionist policies. If you support Israel's right to exist, you should stop using "Zionism" as a term of contempt.

 

[WPM]

What you say you believe is not always revealed in your arguments. You say you believe he is a false prophet, but your argument says otherwise. I didn't bring up Ezekiel 45, you did. And you never once proved that Ezekiel 45 was fulfilled, because I didn't let you. I cut to the chase showing you that it couldn't have been fulfilled. I told you already, several times, that Ezekiel 45 is not a problem for my view and you would know this if you took the time to understand MY view.

You didn't answer my question. You said:

I am not going to answer until you admit that Ezekiel was not a false prophet.

I will try again: Is Ezekiel 40-48 historic or future in your millennium?

 

[Phoneman777]

Israel sometimes obeyed God, and sometimes they disobeyed God. To say that because at the time of Jesus they were in the midst of national apostasy they were always that way is not true. To say that because Israel historically had a hard time obeying God they were always evil and out of compliance with God's covenant is not true.

I hear this all the time, and clearly, you are judging the entire nation by those who failed. The entire nation did *not* always fail. They faithfully entered into Canaan and conquered their enemies. They hailed God as their one and only God. The fact they later failed in some parts of the nation did not mean all failed.

It was a process, one that ultimately does lead to national failure. But along the way, many acts of obedience take place. The story of the judges and the stories of the kings illustrate this.

I agree up and down surely describes Israel's experience with God, but unlike Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism, Protestant Historicism holds that the 70 Weeks was a final Israeli probationary period where they were given 490 years to return from Babylon and get their act together and get busy announcing the coming of the Messiah...but instead they killed Him. Therefore, God washed His hands of them, raised up Paul to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, and allowed Israel to be destroyed and scattered in 70 A.D.

Let me ask you: do you think God forced those ancient pagan kings and despots to leave slave Israelite women alone? To allow ONLY slave Israelite men to have sex with them and preserve their bloodline? Or, did pagan kings indiscriminately rape and/or marry (especially very attractive Israelite women like Esther), sexually abuse them, impregnate them for use in infant sacrifice rituals, while segregating slave Israelite men? The Israelite men, no doubt, were immediately castrated as soon as they arrived at their place of servitude, as was Daniel and his friends. Are we to believe the one Jew tribe or all the 12 tribes are somehow with us today after all that?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I'm pro-Zionist. And you are clearly anti-Zionist, which is the same thing as being anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. I'm referring to the use of "Zionism" as a term of contempt, as opposed to opposition to some of Israel's expansionist policies. If you support Israel's right to exist, you should stop using "Zionism" as a term of contempt.

To oppose the false teachings in "Zionism" isn't anit-semetic as you falsely claim, exposing false teachings is biblical truth

Like I stated, any person opposing your false Zionist teaching will be branded anti-semetic, just like liberal democrats calling conservatives racist in opposing theirs

The goal is to silence the opposition with false claims of anti-semetism and racism

And don't forget your statement "Yes I'm Pro Zionist" as I have stated all along

 

[covenantee]

Jerusalem is the Whore Mystery Babylon The Great

The future, little horn, man of sin, the beast, hasnt been, nor will he be a Roman Catholic Pope

The reformers had it all wrong, but living under the persecution of Rome during their time on earth, it is fully understandable

It is self-evident as to who has it all wrong.

God raised up His Reformers and empowered them to liberate His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression. They succeeded.

God had it all right.

His Reformers had it all right.

God hasn't raised you up to denigrate and disparage their faith, vision, and sacrifice.

Without them, you wouldn't be on this forum. In fact, there's a high probability that you simply wouldn't be.

 

[Randy Kluth]

To oppose the false teachings in "Zionism" isn't anit-semetic as you falsely claim, exposing the lie is biblical truth

Like I stated, any person opposing your false Zionist teaching will be branded anti-semetic, just like liberal democrats calling conservatives racist in opposing their lies

The goal is to silence the opposition with false claims of anti-semetism and racist

I'm not asking you to censor your criticism of Israel. I've asked you to stop using the term "Zionism" in a derisive way, as a "term of contempt." Obviously, you will deny it because you're dishonest, a name-caller, and a hater of those who support the Jewish People and Israel.

This is not about Replacement Theology, but about hate. Using negative connotations and terms of contempt aimed at the Jewish People is anti-Semitic.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not asking you to censor your criticism of Israel. I've asked you to stop using the term "Zionism" in a derisive way, as a "term of contempt." Obviously, you will deny it because you're dishonest, a name-caller, and a hater of those who support the Jewish People and Israel.

This is not about Replacement Theology, but about hate. Using negative connotations and terms of contempt aimed at the Jewish People is anti-Semitic.

Your claims are false again, personal attacks trying desperately to silence your opposition

I don't use Zionism in a derisive way in contempt, Truth7t7 isn't dishonest, a name caller, or a hater of Jews or those that support them, your claims are "False"!

Sounds like the liberal democrats shouting racist at anybody that would oppose them

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

It is self-evident as to who has it all wrong.

God raised up His Reformers and empowered them to liberate His True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression. They succeeded.

God had it all right.

His Reformers had it all right.

God hasn't raised you up to denigrate and disparage their faith, vision, and sacrifice.

Without them, you wouldn't be on this forum. In fact, there's a high probability that you simply wouldn't be.

Salvation is in the reformers!

Big Smiles

 

[Randy Kluth]

I agree up and down surely describes Israel's experience with God, but unlike Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism, Protestant Historicism holds that the 70 Weeks was a final Israeli probationary period where they were given 490 years to return from Babylon and get their act together and get busy announcing the coming of the Messiah...but instead they killed Him. Therefore, God washed His hands of them, raised up Paul to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, and allowed Israel to be destroyed and scattered in 70 A.D.

A lot of truth in that, but it can be easily misunderstood. "Wash hands of the Jews forever?" Is that what you're implying? I'm neither a Historicist nor a Preterest, but ally on certain points with both schools. I believe the 70 Weeks expired at the crucifixion of Christ, and was followed by the AoD, the Roman Army. This began the longest period of Jewish Punishment in their history.

But did God wash His hands of them? No, he said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Many of them, nevertheless, were judged and destroyed. But through the generations, God has always converted a remnant of Jews to keep their lamp burning until finally, it will come true the promise that they will be saved from their enemies, never to be oppressed again.

Let me ask you: do you think God forced those ancient pagan kings and despots to leave slave Israelite women alone? To allow ONLY slave Israelite men to have sex with them and preserve their bloodline? Or, did pagan kings indiscriminately rape and/or marry (especially very attractive Israelite women like Esther), sexually abuse them, impregnate them for use in infant sacrifice rituals, while segregating slave Israelite men? The Israelite men, no doubt, were immediately castrated as soon as they arrived at their place of servitude, as was Daniel and his friends. Are we to believe the one Jew tribe or all the 12 tribes are somehow with us today after all that?

I have no idea where you're going with this? Obviously, there has been mistreatment of the Jewish People, male and female, as has been true of all races and nations. What's the point?

With respect to the continuity of Jewish tribes, I absolutely reject that. The 12 tribes ceased to exist as such when the nation formed into a kingdom, under Saul and David. People still had their genealogies, and in some cases, required it. But the formal boundaries of the tribes ceased to be of any relevance once God had achieved His goal of turning these tribes into a nation, as was promised.

 

[covenantee]

Salvation is in the reformers!

Big Smiles

Salvation is not in you!!

Bigger guffaw.