23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I refer you back to my last post that rebuts this post in detail.
I like your style. If you don't think the challenge is good, then you don't need wasting time defending yourself.

If you want to show me how the challenge is no good, then I'd be glad to hear it.

But at this point, we simply disagree. I say the prophecy is the Lord returns to judge all and save some, and others say He comes to condemn and destroy all.

And His resurrected saints are given power to do both with Him: judge and destroy the wicked, while saving the innocent.

I have no problem using the rod of iron to hammer down on the wicked with Him, whether the reprobate warriors in Judea, or the goats of the nations.

I'm not like others, who only want to condemn, but not do the necessary executing. I would push the button today on any convicted rapist and murderer, and would do so in His millennium on earth.

Execution is not only just punishment, but it's for the safety of other innocents. Only 8 souls were saved by water in the flood, but many more will be saved by rods of iron at His coming again.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,444
584
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is not in Daniel 9, which corroborates the Roman armies in Luke 21 and Matthew 24.
There are no armies in Matthew 24.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place."

The Image in Revelation 13 will stand in the holy place.

It is not an idol. The image is the beast, the AC. Idols don't come to life. Read Josephus to see what Antiochus Epiphanes placed in the holy place. You read Josephus for the rest of your interpretation anyway. The only reason 70 AD is on your radar is because that is when Josephus declared Jerusalem and the temple were laid waste and all the stones removed from on top of each other.
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
4,558
1,867
113
72
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
There are no armies in Matthew 24.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place."

The Image in Revelation 13 will stand in the holy place.

It is not an idol. The image is the beast, the AC. Idols don't come to life. Read Josephus to see what Antiochus Epiphanes placed in the holy place. You read Josephus for the rest of your interpretation anyway. The only reason 70 AD is on your radar is because that is when Josephus declared Jerusalem and the temple were laid waste and all the stones removed from on top of each other.
There are armies in Luke 21, which is the Olivet discourse's synoptic counterpart to Matthew 24.

There is no Antiochus Epiphanes in the Olivet discourse.

There is no antichrist in the Olivet discourse.
 
Last edited:

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Is Jesus Christ?

The word Christ is in the chapter. They reign with Christ, not for Christ. They are part of the camp of the saints that is on the earth. The camp of the saints is not on the moon, and not on the sun. The camp of the saints is not on Mars. The camp of the saints is not in the firmament. The camp of the saints is on the earth. Jesus does not send the fire from Jerusalem. God sends down fire from heaven. Jesus was on the earth at the first coming, not remote from heaven.

Jesus will be on the earth at the Second Coming, not remote from heaven.

The Second Coming is not found in Revelation 20, but you claim it is in there somewhere. Then you deny Jesus is even on the earth in the chapter. You refute your own point. How can the Second Coming not have Jesus on the earth? Is someone else coming this time?

You just confirmed my thesis. Rev 20 does not locate Jesus on earth during the millennium. That is because it relates to the intra-Advent period.
 

Always Believing

Active Member
Aug 28, 2022
483
92
28
35
Cohocton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Childish response in complete diversion, Your backed into a corner and silenced with scriptural truth presented

Yes, Jesus returns in destruction of the wicked, just as a Potter destroys his vessels with a "Rod Of Iron"
The wicked are not Jesus' vessels.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,849
3,271
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The wicked are not Jesus' vessels.
God is the Potter, all vessels are created by him

Romans 9:21KJV
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I like your style. If you don't think the challenge is good, then you don't need wasting time defending yourself.

If you want to show me how the challenge is no good, then I'd be glad to hear it.

But at this point, we simply disagree. I say the prophecy is the Lord returns to judge all and save some, and others say He comes to condemn and destroy all.

And His resurrected saints are given power to do both with Him: judge and destroy the wicked, while saving the innocent.

I have no problem using the rod of iron to hammer down on the wicked with Him, whether the reprobate warriors in Judea, or the goats of the nations.

I'm not like others, who only want to condemn, but not do the necessary executing. I would push the button today on any convicted rapist and murderer, and would do so in His millennium on earth.

Execution is not only just punishment, but it's for the safety of other innocents. Only 8 souls were saved by water in the flood, but many more will be saved by rods of iron at His coming again.

I wonder why you are avoiding these simple questions? Obviously they expose your whole theology. I will keep repeating until you address these:

Did God "make Hitler blush" in Sodom and Gommorrah and the other 3 cities He destroyed in total? Did God "make Hitler blush" when He destroyed all human flesh in Noah's day apart from 8 souls?

1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

1Sa 15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.


Does God killing men, women and children "make Hitler blush" here?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I already have, and you won't acknowledge them the next time. But thanks for saying please. I respectfully decline.

But I would like to see you actually try and correct the soundness of a point I make. So, if you want, one at a time, we can give it a try.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

I say this:
1. He will smite the nations and tread them fiercely.
2. He will rule them not fiercely trodden to death.

Otherwise, there is none to rule.

What say you.

He is going to obliterate the wicked when He comes not reward them as you do and welcome them into your so-called future millennium. He will smash them to shivers. There is no one left to populate your supposed future millennium. I have already showed you this and you have skipped around it. I will repeat:

Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world and the end of the wicked. It therefore forbids the Premil paradigm.
Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury witha sharp swordthat comes out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: He is Coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine – only trodden in righteous anger. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations. How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second Coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man.

It is hard to think how the Holy Spirit could have used more cogent illustrations to show the annihilation of the wicked. Rather than showing their gracious preservation from the wrath of God they are actually seen to be the focus of His awful fury at His return. Rather than being welcomed into some supposed glorious future millennial kingdom the ungodly are shown to be decimated at the second coming. The wicked are likened unto grapes that are crushed in the vineyard and a clay pot that is broken to bits when found to be flawed and unusable. How can anyone impute blessing upon the recipients of this fiery destruction? How could anyone turn the wrath of the Lord upon the wicked in Revelation 2 and 19 into some kind of spiritual blessing?
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I wonder why you are avoiding these simple questions? Obviously they expose your whole theology. I will keep repeating until you address these:

Did God "make Hitler blush" in Sodom and Gommorrah and the other 3 cities He destroyed in total? Did God "make Hitler blush" when He destroyed all human flesh in Noah's day apart from 8 souls?

1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

1Sa 15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.


Does God killing men, women and children "make Hitler blush" here?
God is justified in all His killings. And if He prophesied His Son coming again to not save, but to destroy all flesh, then He would be justified.

But that is you vile prophecy, not God's. He'll not be outdoing Hitler's Final Solution.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,171
930
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world and the end of the wicked.
That this statement is wrong, is well proved simply by reading the description of the glorious Return of Jesus. Revelation 19:11-21
He merely destroys the attacking armies and chains up Satan. All the wicked people comprise that army, Revelation 16:13-14, and only the righteous and faithful peoples will go into the Millennium with King Jesus.

However, some will fail to keep the decreed feasts and they will be punished by droughts. Zechariah 14:17-19
Then at the end of the Millennium, Satan will be released and he will fool many to follow him. They and Satan, will then be destroyed for ever.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He is going to obliterate the wicked when He comes not reward them as you do and welcome them into your so-called future millennium.
Lying about what others teach is evidence of false teaching. It's practised on God's word as well as those that teach His word as written.

He will smash them to shivers.
But not you, because will be given no power given you to rule them with Him. Which means you are not an overcomer to be given it.
climactic. paradigm.
The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso,

Let us be clear:

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge regularly employed

The picture being portrayed here, this is climactic language

cogent illustrations gracious preservation focus of His awful fury impute blessing upon the recipients found to be flawed and unusable. decimated
I just love it when you talk all theologically. And when you go to Greek, I get a special tingle all it's own.

You are sooooo impressive Mr Scholar sir.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He is going to obliterate the wicked when He comes not reward them as you do and welcome them into your so-called future millennium. He will smash them to shivers. There is no one left to populate your supposed future millennium. I have already showed you this and you have skipped around it. I will repeat:

Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world and the end of the wicked. It therefore forbids the Premil paradigm.
Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury witha sharp swordthat comes out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: He is Coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine – only trodden in righteous anger. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations. How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second Coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man.

It is hard to think how the Holy Spirit could have used more cogent illustrations to show the annihilation of the wicked. Rather than showing their gracious preservation from the wrath of God they are actually seen to be the focus of His awful fury at His return. Rather than being welcomed into some supposed glorious future millennial kingdom the ungodly are shown to be decimated at the second coming. The wicked are likened unto grapes that are crushed in the vineyard and a clay pot that is broken to bits when found to be flawed and unusable. How can anyone impute blessing upon the recipients of this fiery destruction? How could anyone turn the wrath of the Lord upon the wicked in Revelation 2 and 19 into some kind of spiritual blessing?
Not once in all this gaggle of misery on earth, because of the Lamb coming again to earth, is the word shepherd used for His rod.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Also, thanks for copy and pasting it for me. I need it for future use, to show to your fellow believers, that claim it's only by fire that the Lamb kills everyone one earth, and not by personally bludgeoning them all to death. Which of course, you would never do. You just like to watch and cheer, while someone else does the heavy lifting.

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God is justified in all His killings. And if He prophesied His Son coming again to not save, but to destroy all flesh, then He would be justified.

But that is you vile prophecy, not God's. He'll not be outdoing Hitler's Final Solution.

It is completely blasphemous to compare God's righteous destruction of the wicked to the evil of Hitler. You should be ashamed of yourself. Your struggle is clearly with the Word of God.
 
Last edited:

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God is justified in all His killings. And if He prophesied His Son coming again to not save, but to destroy all flesh, then He would be justified.

But that is you vile prophecy, not God's. He'll not be outdoing Hitler's Final Solution.

Who else pours this scorn out against the plain teaching of Scripture re the righteouss acts of God against the wicked at the second coming? You are on your own.
 
Last edited:

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is completely blasphemous to compare God's righteouss destruction of the wicked to the evil of Hitler.
Not a bad twist, but too obvious.

The comparison is to your prophesied Final Solution, that Hitler never remotely achieved.

And the last great antichrist will be stopped by the Lord before your favored Final Solution.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jesus Christ comes to save as much flesh as He can. Your prophesied christ comes to destroy as much flesh as he can:

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


You should be ashamed of yourself. Your struggle is clearly with the Word of God.
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jesus Christ comes to save as much flesh as He can. Your prophesied christ comes to destroy as much flesh as he can:

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who else pours this scorn out against the plain teaching of Scripture re the righteouss acts of God against the wicked at the second coming? You are on your own.
Someone's getting into a snit.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jesus Christ comes to save as much flesh as He can. Your prophesied christ comes to destroy as much flesh as he can:

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not a bad twist, but too obvious.

The comparison is to your prophesied Final Solution, that Hitler never remotely achieved.

And the last great antichrist will be stopped by the Lord before your favored Final Solution.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jesus Christ comes to save as much flesh as He can. Your prophesied christ comes to destroy as much flesh as he can:

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.



And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jesus Christ comes to save as much flesh as He can. Your prophesied christ comes to destroy as much flesh as he can:

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Your MO is to totally sidestep every single scriptural passage that forbids your error and speak as if it doesn't exist. I have showed you the Scriptures that forbid your teaching and you cannot address it. I have started a thread to expose your error.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God is justified in all His killings. And if He prophesied His Son coming again to not save, but to destroy all flesh, then He would be justified.

But that is you vile prophecy, not God's. He'll not be outdoing Hitler's Final Solution.

Were there woman and children destroyed in Sodom, Noah's day and amongst the Amalekites in 1 Samuel 15:7?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Someone's getting into a snit.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jesus Christ comes to save as much flesh as He can. Your prophesied christ comes to destroy as much flesh as he can:

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jesus is not coming back to save the next time (that was His purpose the first time), He is coming back to judge. He will rescue all of His elect and damn the rest to the Lake of Fire. There is no imaginary 3rd group of humans, which you invent.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Someone's getting into a snit.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jesus Christ comes to save as much flesh as He can. Your prophesied christ comes to destroy as much flesh as he can:

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Address the inspired text instead of twisting it.