3.5 Tribulation

[Bibleinvestigations]

The prophecy was about the coming of the Messiah. Whatever else is said has to be understood in light of the subject. The desolating abominations are associated with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which is an added piece of information.

Why? I don't see the connection. What is so important about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple so that it was inserted in a prophecy about Jesus?

If the prophecy was about both the Messiah AND the people of the prince who was to come, the latter would also have got a mention in the beginning, in verses 24-25.

The 40-year gap between the crucifixion of the Messiah and the destruction of the city and temple does not change the meaning of the prophecy in any way - it's an added piece of information that is not part of the same 70-weeks prophecy.

Hmmm...an added piece of information that isn't part of the same 70-weeks prophecy? Prophecy is the word of God and the word of God is perfect. Therefore, the FULL meaning of the seventy sevens is in the verses and only the verses.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

A seven year covenant with the answer being found in Revelation. I'll give another clue - it isn't a made-up distant future scenario - it's an exact prediction that has already come true.

26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.

After the first 7+62 weeks = in the 70th week. The prince of the people who was to come destroyed the city and temple 40 years later. The desolating abominations are associated with this.

I believe I've seen timelines of this and it becomes the CATS of the seven years in the distant future that I never could understand - especially with prophecy expected to be exact when it presents numerous numbers. Are the numbers all arbitrary? Nope - they are exact and fit into the solution of the seventy sevens - but only when combined with Revelation!!!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I've had some discussion with some of the participants in another thread and was intrigued by the idea that Jesus fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. I had only heard one other source mentioning this in some of my past ministry connections, but had never heard the reason for it. However on further study of the subject I'm wondering the true validity of the doctrine.
In brief; the doctrine comes into play with the verse of Daniel 9. It reads as such:

Daniel 9:26,27 KJV
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Is this a common teaching for many on the forum?

The whole 70 weeks od Daniel is about the Messiah's 1st Coming. " The people of the prince that shall come" is just an allusion to the Romans/Titus in 70 AD and beyond - not part of the 70 weeks, like a pathetically note ... "Oh and btw these things will happen after a His coming: desolation of city, temple, death and wars to come. The death of Jesus was the ultimate "abomination that cause desolation" to come to the Jews and Jerusalem even until the consummation: His Second Coming, Millennial Kingdom, our resurrection.
Then vs. 27 gets back to Messiah who gave us a Covenant withing that week and was cut off killed. The Covenanat wasn't for one week, Jesus confirmed the covenant for 3 1/2 years (a portion of one week).
But you will hear many interpretations. The Pre-tribbers rest on the GAP THEORY. Why would God instruct Gabriel to give Daniel a message about the Messiah's 1st coming and then completely change it, insert a gap and then gives us the last week 2000 years later?

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

The whole 70 weeks od Daniel is about the Messiah's 1st Coming. " The people of the prince that shall come" is just an allusion to the Romans/Titus in 70 AD and beyond - not part of the 70 weeks, like a pathetically note ... "Oh and btw these things will happen after a His coming: desolation of city, temple, death and wars to come. The death of Jesus was the ultimate "abomination that cause desolation" to come to the Jews and Jerusalem even until the consummation: His Second Coming, Millennial Kingdom, our resurrection.
Then vs. 27 gets back to Messiah who gave us a Covenant withing that week and was cut off killed. The Covenanat wasn't for one week, Jesus confirmed the covenant for 3 1/2 years (a portion of one week).
But you will hear many interpretations. The Pre-tribbers rest on the GAP THEORY. Why would God instruct Gabriel to give Daniel a message about the Messiah's 1st coming and then completely change it, insert a gap and then gives us the last week 2000 years later?

Yes, Jesus is the abomination that causes desolation, so we’re getting closer to the truth. I really like your ending sentences. Why…why…why? I think people tend to forget the common sense aspect of scripture to search for force-fitted meaning.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I wonder if there is any significance to the trumpet sounds heard around the world. Sky trumpets 2020 - Updated list of trumpet sounds in the sky

I think we are at least in the "beggining of sorrows" mentioned in Mathew 24 that precedes the Great Tribulation. And I do believe the GT is 3 1/2 years long. I think the pandemic was the beggining of this NWO that began to enforce the world to lock down, wear masks, close schools, churches, determine what businesses were essential or not, testing, vaccines -- all starting in March 2020. What's next? WW3 in the Middle East. Ten nations (Islamic) backed by Russia as well attack Israel. Could happen soon. Then we will know we are in it, we will find out who the Antichrist is and if it is nuclear, ot will be over in a few hours. Then the Two Witnessses will show up. Tisha B'Av would be a likely date if it happened this year. ???

 

[Gordon]

So you think I'm not speaking by the unction of The Holy Spirit when I quote to you Scripture witnesses about that future time at the end? And those Scriptures I referenced are not that difficult to understand for a disciple of Christ that disciplines theirself in His Word.

It is obvious that the Holy Spirit is with you; but where offense arises its a good sign that something has been added to the relationship.

Im at a loss to understand your compliant. What you say here; I agree with and have come to the same conclusion. Refresh my memory as to what it is that we don't agree on.
The whole Revelation 6 chapter is a link to the SIGNS of the end which Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. At this present time today, we are already in the 4th Seal, which is part of the "beginning of sorrows" time that Jesus forewarned (Matthew 24:5-8).
When the event of the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in future Jerusalem is setup per the Matthew 24:15 verse, that is when the 'middle' of the "one week" will be, and will kick off the latter 3.5 years of the Dan.9:27 "one week", which will be the time of "great tribulation". (However, per Matthew 24:22, Jesus said He shortened that tribulation for the sake of His elect. So the 3.5 years, or 1260 days, or 42 months of Rev.11 is now just a blueprint of the events to come, those number of days no longer accurate. But Lord Jesus showed His elect to what time He shortened the tribulation to, just not where one would expect to find it in the Scriptures.)

If you find a verse, describing "when" God actually shortened the time I would be very interested.

If you recognize that we are on the cusp of the 4th seal then you recognize that there was a start date to the Tribulation. If it is march 11, 2020 then counting 2300 days is august 2026. Back tracking in order to include the two witnesses it would mean that they are here since Jan 2023.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

The whole Revelation 6 chapter is a link to the SIGNS of the end which Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. At this present time today, we are already in the 4th Seal, which is part of the "beginning of sorrows" time that Jesus forewarned (Matthew 24:5-8).
When the event of the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in future Jerusalem is setup per the Matthew 24:15 verse, that is when the 'middle' of the "one week" will be, and will kick off the latter 3.5 years of the Dan.9:27 "one week", which will be the time of "great tribulation". (However, per Matthew 24:22, Jesus said He shortened that tribulation for the sake of His elect. So the 3.5 years, or 1260 days, or 42 months of Rev.11 is now just a blueprint of the events to come, those number of days no longer accurate. But Lord Jesus showed His elect to what time He shortened the tribulation to, just not where one would expect to find it in the Scriptures.)

Can someone please explain how the abomination that causes desolation - the worst thing to ever happen - is about an IDOL in future Jerusalem? We've had nuclear bombs, mass genocide, and a church that is corrupted to the core yet God wants us to look to the future for some IDOL as the worst thing that could ever happen? If we find out that the abomination that causes desolation is NOT this IDOL and it has already occurred, then all those assumptions made about the great tribulation, 1,260 days, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are in error. Could it be that the current approach to understanding the abomination that causes desolation is just theological stew meant to hide the identity of the beast?

 

[Nancy]

Can someone please explain how the abomination that causes desolation - the worst thing to ever happen - is about an IDOL in future Jerusalem? We've had nuclear bombs, mass genocide, and a church that is corrupted to the core yet God wants us to look to the future for some IDOL as the worst thing that could ever happen? If we find out that the abomination that causes desolation is NOT this IDOL and it has already occurred, then all those assumptions made about the great tribulation, 1,260 days, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are in error. Could it be that the current approach to understanding the abomination that causes desolation is just theological stew meant to hide the identity of the beast?

A N T I C H R I S T 'guessing-game' ends here

Antichrist ID'd on today's End Time world stage. [*Fully documented/proven testimony of HeisnearCom founder Rob Conrad]

www.heisnear.com

An interesting site all about Eschatology. The link above concentrates on the A.C.
Take or leave.

 

[Gordon]

Can someone please explain how the abomination that causes desolation - the worst thing to ever happen - is about an IDOL in future Jerusalem? We've had nuclear bombs, mass genocide, and a church that is corrupted to the core yet God wants us to look to the future for some IDOL as the worst thing that could ever happen? If we find out that the abomination that causes desolation is NOT this IDOL and it has already occurred, then all those assumptions made about the great tribulation, 1,260 days, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are in error. Could it be that the current approach to understanding the abomination that causes desolation is just theological stew meant to hide the identity of the beast?

Davy actually offered that paragraph regarding numbered events and I pretty much agree with. So he might also have something to say regarding you question.

My opinion is that when you watch the numbers such as time,time and half, 42 month, 1290 days 1335 they work best when having an acceptable start date. People researching same are seeing a start date at around march 2020. So the numbers tell a story beginning here.
I'm still putting the pieces together so go easy on me.

------Do the numbers suggest that the antichrist is actually active the first 3.5 years; yet working from behind the scenes? The word “reveal” gives us a clue.

2 Thessalonians 2

1. Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ …

2. That day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed],

3. This word “reveal” in the “Strongs concordance #601” describes it this way;

"Reveal is “Persons, previously concealed, and now making their appearance in public”:

2 Thessalonians 2

4. And you know what restrains him now [from being revealed]; it is so that he will be revealed at his own [appointed] time.

5. Until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way.

6. Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

7. The antichrist is destroyed mid-trib and AI beast takes over his image the last 3.5 years

8. Look at the numbers; what do they say about gods timing and is there a discrepancy in the timing?

Daniel 8:13-15 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?” 14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

Matthew 24:22
And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

Daniel 12
9. There will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; but at that time … everyone who is found written in the Book [of Life], will be rescued.

10. “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?”

11. I heard the man dressed in linen … it would be for a time, times, and a half a time (three and a half years)

12. From the time that the regular sacrifice [that is, the daily burnt offering] is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up [ruining the temple for worship of the true God], there will be 1,290 days.

13. is he who waits expectantly [enduring without wavering for the period of tribulation] and comes to the 1,335 days!

If the time is cut short then the numbers such as 1290 a1335 can only be accomplished in the first 3.5 years Mid-Trib.

If the later 3.5 then its not 3.5 but only 2.8 years; so mid trib makes more sense.

14. Further More if the time is cut short its likely based on that 2300 evenings and mornings or 6.3 years beginning date is march 2020 plus 2300 is august 2026.

15. As for the two witness: If the time is cut short and they are given 1260 days to prophecie then by Back Tracking from there

The two watchmen began on January 5, 2023 if not sooner​

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Davy actually offered that paragraph regarding numbered events and I pretty much agree with. So he might also have something to say regarding you question.

My opinion is that when you watch the numbers such as time,time and half, 42 month, 1290 days 1335 they work best when having an acceptable start date. People researching same are seeing a start date at around march 2020. So the numbers tell a story beginning here.
I'm still putting the pieces together so go easy on me.

------Do the numbers suggest that the antichrist is actually active the first 3.5 years; yet working from behind the scenes? The word “reveal” gives us a clue.

2 Thessalonians 2

1. Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ …

3. That day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed],

This word “reveal” in the “Strongs concordance #601” describes it this way;

Reveal is “Persons, previously concealed, and now making their appearance in public”:

2 Thessalonians 2

6. And you know what restrains him now [from being revealed]; it is so that he will be revealed at his own [appointed] time.

7. Until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way.

8. Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

The antichrist is destroyed mid-trib and AI beast takes over his image the last 3.5 years

Look at the numbers; what do they say about gods timing and is there a discrepancy in the timing?

Daniel 8:13-15 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?” 14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

Matthew 24:22
And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

Daniel 12
1. There will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; but at that time … everyone who is found written in the Book [of Life], will be rescued.

6. “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?”

7. I heard the man dressed in linen … it would be for a time, times, and a half a time (three and a half years)

11. From the time that the regular sacrifice [that is, the daily burnt offering] is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up [ruining the temple for worship of the true God], there will be 1,290 days.

12. is he who waits expectantly [enduring without wavering for the period of tribulation] and comes to the 1,335 days!

If the time is cut short then the numbers such as 1290 a1335 can only be accomplished in the first 3.5 years Mid-Trib.

If the later 3.5 then its not 3.5 but only 2.8 years; so mid trib makes more sense.

Further More if the time is cut short its likely based on that 2300 evenings and mornings or 6.3 years beginning date is march 2020 plus 2300 is august 2026.

As for the two witness: If the time is cut short and they are given 1260 days to prophecie then Back Tracking from there and

The two watchmen began on January 5, 2023 if not sooner​

A N T I C H R I S T 'guessing-game' ends here

Antichrist ID'd on today's End Time world stage. [*Fully documented/proven testimony of HeisnearCom founder Rob Conrad]

www.heisnear.com

An interesting site all about Eschatology. The link above concentrates on the A.C.
Take or leave.

Thanks for the info. The introduction stated that John was an old man in a Patmos prison when he received his Revelation and since there is no proof of that, I wrote off his books as more theological stew.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Davy actually offered that paragraph regarding numbered events and I pretty much agree with. So he might also have something to say regarding you question.

My opinion is that when you watch the numbers such as time,time and half, 42 month, 1290 days 1335 they work best when having an acceptable start date. People researching same are seeing a start date at around march 2020. So the numbers tell a story beginning here.
I'm still putting the pieces together so go easy on me.

------Do the numbers suggest that the antichrist is actually active the first 3.5 years; yet working from behind the scenes? The word “reveal” gives us a clue.

2 Thessalonians 2

1. Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ …

2. That day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed],

3. This word “reveal” in the “Strongs concordance #601” describes it this way;

"Reveal is “Persons, previously concealed, and now making their appearance in public”:

2 Thessalonians 2

4. And you know what restrains him now [from being revealed]; it is so that he will be revealed at his own [appointed] time.

5. Until he who now restrains it is taken out of the way.

6. Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

7. The antichrist is destroyed mid-trib and AI beast takes over his image the last 3.5 years

8. Look at the numbers; what do they say about gods timing and is there a discrepancy in the timing?

Daniel 8:13-15 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?” 14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

Matthew 24:22
And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

Daniel 12
9. There will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; but at that time … everyone who is found written in the Book [of Life], will be rescued.

10. “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?”

11. I heard the man dressed in linen … it would be for a time, times, and a half a time (three and a half years)

12. From the time that the regular sacrifice [that is, the daily burnt offering] is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up [ruining the temple for worship of the true God], there will be 1,290 days.

13. is he who waits expectantly [enduring without wavering for the period of tribulation] and comes to the 1,335 days!

If the time is cut short then the numbers such as 1290 a1335 can only be accomplished in the first 3.5 years Mid-Trib.

If the later 3.5 then its not 3.5 but only 2.8 years; so mid trib makes more sense.

14. Further More if the time is cut short its likely based on that 2300 evenings and mornings or 6.3 years beginning date is march 2020 plus 2300 is august 2026.

15. As for the two witness: If the time is cut short and they are given 1260 days to prophecie then by Back Tracking from there

The two watchmen began on January 5, 2023 if not sooner​

Try forgetting everything you've been told about the numbers, seventy sevens, coming antichrist, and tribulation, and concentrate only on the written words in prophecy and try to match the two books of Daniel and Revelation together.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Thanks for the info. The introduction stated that John was an old man in a Patmos prison when he received his Revelation and since there is no proof of that, I wrote off his books as more theological stew.

Sorry Nancy. I'm not trying to be a downer and I know it seems critical but I've been in Revelation for a long time trying to solve it, and the Patmos story of John at an old age hits a raw nerve because it's another story created that has no basis - it's theological stew. Based on this, I would expect that someone claiming to solve one of the mysteries of scripture to be aware of this rather than promoting the falsehood in an introduction to their books.

 

[Johann]

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS

We can broaden this-

TRIBULATION (thlipsis)

There needs to be a theological distinction between Paul's use of this term (thlipsis) and John's.



A. Paul's usage (which reflects Jesus' usage)

1. problems, sufferings, evil involved in a fallen world

a. Matt. 13:21

b. Rom. 5:3

c. 1 Cor. 7:28

d. 2 Cor. 7:4

e. Eph. 3:13

2. problems, sufferings, evil caused by unbelievers

a. Rom. 5:3; 8:35; 12:12

b. 2 Cor. 1:4,8; 6:4; 7:4; 8:2,13

c. Eph. 3:13

d. Phil. 4:14

e. 1 Thess. 1:6

f. 2 Thess. 1:4

3. problems, sufferings, evil of the end-time

a. Matt. 24:21,29

b. Mark 13:19,24

c. 2 Thess. 1:6-9

B. John's usage

1. John makes a specific distinction between thlipsis and orgē or thumos (wrath) in Revelation. Thlipsis is what unbelievers do to believers and orgē and thumos is what God does to unbelievers.

a. thlipsis – Rev. 1:9; 2:9-10,22; 7:14

b. orgē – Rev. 6:16-17; 11:18; 16:19; 19:15

c. thumos – Rev. 12:12; 14:8,10,19; 15:1,7; 16:1; 18:3

2. John also uses the term in his Gospel to reflect problems believers face in every age – John 16:33.

J.

 

[Johann]

Hmmm...an added piece of information that isn't part of the same 70-weeks prophecy? Prophecy is the word of God and the word of God is perfect. Therefore, the FULL meaning of the seventy sevens is in the verses and only the verses.

Are you a Preterist?

According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-centuonflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.

I have to smile-everyone is a "scholar on eschatology" on this site, but see how even you guys disagree.



J.

 

[face2face]

I've had some discussion with some of the participants in another thread and was intrigued by the idea that Jesus fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. I had only heard one other source mentioning this in some of my past ministry connections, but had never heard the reason for it. However on further study of the subject I'm wondering the true validity of the doctrine.
In brief; the doctrine comes into play with the verse of Daniel 9. It reads as such:

Daniel 9:26,27 KJV
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Is this a common teaching for many on the forum?

Hi Gordon,

This prophecy has been and gone!

Sixty-two sevens (see verse 24). A period of 434 years which extended beyond the revival of Jewry in the times of the Maccabees which followed Nehemiah, to the domination of the nation by the Romans. It was a period of great expectation for Jewry. They sought a
leader with pomp and splendor to overthrow their enemies, when they would be "helped with a little help" (see Dan 11:34). The time period introduced the advent of Messiah, and the proclamation of John the Baptist as forerunner.

Stay well away from futurist commentaries as this is a bottomless pit of destruction for those who find themselves lost in its darkness.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Are you a Preterist?

According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history.
J.

No this is untrue - plenty of Bible prophecy still to be fulfilled - the problem with futurists is they apply future to all prophecy.
It's easy that way! Don't need to show yourself approved...
F2F

 

[face2face]

Can we ask another question? What happens if a theory is wrong and precedes our understanding of end times; will we ever notice when the real time line appears?
These matters are also enmeshed in spiritual struggle; if for any other reason because we are trying to seek after the kingdom of God.

You need the keys to unlock the figurative language used in the Revelation. Without the keys you are blind! To get the keys you must study the symbols used and not apply man made notions to the Word. It's constantly happening in this forum.
F2F

 

[Timtofly]

Thanks for the info. The introduction stated that John was an old man in a Patmos prison when he received his Revelation and since there is no proof of that, I wrote off his books as more theological stew.

John was old. But not an old man. If you accept a date of 96, think about it. John was the youngest disciple, but in 30AD if he was 18, add 66 to that. That makes 84. Do you think 84 is old? If John was any older than 18, writing in 96 would not make him younger. If John was 8 years old in 30AD, in 96 he would still be 74. Do you think 74 is old? Can we rely on historical legend which you have to do to get 96 anyway? There are a few reasons why many want to move the date 30 years closer to 66. It would make John younger.


Why was John on Patmos to begin with? They had already tried to kill him a few times. What if he actually died, and God changed his body to never age after that? Legend has it that he befriended a youth, and had to leave. When he came back the youth was an old man, but John had not aged a day. John was allegedly placed in a boiling pot of oil, which is supposed to kill the person placed in it, but John came out in a body that was not even damaged by the oil. While this may all be speculation just as much as the writings of Josephus, it is to point out that John could have died prior to receiving Revelations and also be one of the two witnesses killed again in the future. The point is not really about dying physically but doing the work of God one is called to. I mean, even Elijah was said to come and go between heaven and earth, hence the prophecy of Malachi.

Personally I think Enoch was Elijah who was sent back to earth. When he was finished Elisha witnessed him leaving and caught his mantle as it fell to earth. Elisha accomplished twice as much as Elijah. Elijah could have come back several times not recorded in Scripture. Elijah did come back with Moses and met with Peter, James, and John. Then they were confused, thinking Elijah was a few years late in coming to earth. They asked Jesus, and Jesus indicated that it was John the Baptist who fulfilled the prophecy, not Elijah. But we already knew that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, although the disciples may have never heard that until after Jesus died and rose again.

The age of John is not theological stew, any more than those placing all their ponies into the 70AD event. 70AD was not described at all in the NT nor OT for that matter. All we have is Daniel 9:26 and that Daniel's people would destroy the Temple and the city of Jerusalem. Not how nor why. Just that it will happen. Then in the Olivet Discourse and on the Temple grounds itself Jesus told them it would be destroyed, but not really when. John being the youngest disciple was the only one to live until or past 70AD. Jesus would have been older than 70 at that point. Even Paul died prior to 70AD. Peter was probably the oldest, and died before 70AD.

This post was not written as some theological explanation. It is to point out the reality of the gap between 30AD and 70AD since you complained John was over 70 years old. In 70AD John may have been 50 to 60 years old, since 40 is how many years of a gap between the two most posted about events of the first century.

Besides this 3.5 years of hotly debated time could be any 3.5 years of history past present or future. Most of the people trying to figure out this time, hijack the prophecy of Antiochus Epiphanes that was already fulfilled and the Jews call it Hanukkah. Time already accounted for, may or may not be duplicated in the future. Is double fulfillment also theological stew? I have already tried to point out that Ezekiel's war of Northern Israel has more than likely already been fulfilled in the 12 year long Syrian Civil War of the last decade. Most countries mentioned were all involved. At least from a recorded standpoint. Who knows who all was involved under the table or by proxi? How can any one know when a prophecy has been fulfilled or not? The only one for certain will be the one that removes the church, and most are divided on that event as well. If left behind will they accept it, or be deceived on the very basis they were wrong, and did not experience even that prophecy?

Is not the example of John the Baptist proof that God can tweak a prophecy without having to answer to humans? Jesus seemed to let His disciples believe what they wanted to without putting up much of an argument. Seems like God is longsuffering when it comes to the myriads of end time interpretations out there.

 

[face2face]

John was old. But not an old man. If you accept a date of 96, think about it. John was the youngest disciple, but in 30AD if he was 18, add 66 to that. That makes 84. Do you think 84 is old? If John was any older than 18, writing in 96 would not make him younger. If John was 8 years old in 30AD, in 96 he would still be 74. Do you think 74 is old? Can we rely on historical legend which you have to do to get 96 anyway? There are a few reasons why many want to move the date 30 years closer to 66. It would make John younger.


Why was John on Patmos to begin with? They had already tried to kill him a few times. What if he actually died, and God changed his body to never age after that? Legend has it that he befriended a youth, and had to leave. When he came back the youth was an old man, but John had not aged a day. John was allegedly placed in a boiling pot of oil, which is supposed to kill the person placed in it, but John came out in a body that was not even damaged by the oil. While this may all be speculation just as much as the writings of Josephus, it is to point out that John could have died prior to receiving Revelations and also be one of the two witnesses killed again in the future. The point is not really about dying physically but doing the work of God one is called to. I mean, even Elijah was said to come and go between heaven and earth, hence the prophecy of Malachi.

Personally I think Enoch was Elijah who was sent back to earth. When he was finished Elisha witnessed him leaving and caught his mantle as it fell to earth. Elisha accomplished twice as much as Elijah. Elijah could have come back several times not recorded in Scripture. Elijah did come back with Moses and met with Peter, James, and John. Then they were confused, thinking Elijah was a few years late in coming to earth. They asked Jesus, and Jesus indicated that it was John the Baptist who fulfilled the prophecy, not Elijah. But we already knew that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, although the disciples may have never heard that until after Jesus died and rose again.

The age of John is not theological stew, any more than those placing all their ponies into the 70AD event. 70AD was not described at all in the NT nor OT for that matter. All we have is Daniel 9:26 and that Daniel's people would destroy the Temple and the city of Jerusalem. Not how nor why. Just that it will happen. Then in the Olivet Discourse and on the Temple grounds itself Jesus told them it would be destroyed, but not really when. John being the youngest disciple was the only one to live until or past 70AD. Jesus would have been older than 70 at that point. Even Paul died prior to 70AD. Peter was probably the oldest, and died before 70AD.

This post was not written as some theological explanation. It is to point out the reality of the gap between 30AD and 70AD since you complained John was over 70 years old. In 70AD John may have been 50 to 60 years old, since 40 is how many years of a gap between the two most posted about events of the first century.

Besides this 3.5 years of hotly debated time could be any 3.5 years of history past present or future. Most of the people trying to figure out this time, hijack the prophecy of Antiochus Epiphanes that was already fulfilled and the Jews call it Hanukkah. Time already accounted for, may or may not be duplicated in the future. Is double fulfillment also theological stew? I have already tried to point out that Ezekiel's war of Northern Israel has more than likely already been fulfilled in the 12 year long Syrian Civil War of the last decade. Most countries mentioned were all involved. At least from a recorded standpoint. Who knows who all was involved under the table or by proxi? How can any one know when a prophecy has been fulfilled or not? The only one for certain will be the one that removes the church, and most are divided on that event as well. If left behind will they accept it, or be deceived on the very basis they were wrong, and did not experience even that prophecy?

Is not the example of John the Baptist proof that God can tweak a prophecy without having to answer to humans? Jesus seemed to let His disciples believe what they wanted to without putting up much of an argument. Seems like God is longsuffering when it comes to the myriads of end time interpretations out there.

Hollywood couldn't script this better.

 

[Timtofly]

You need the keys to unlock the figurative language used in the Revelation. Without the keys you are blind! To get the keys you must study the symbols used and not apply man made notions to the Word. It's constantly happening in this forum.
F2F

So not a futurist nor preterist? Is archeologist a new eschatological descriptive title?

 

[face2face]

So not a futurist nor preterist? Is archeologist a new eschatological descriptive title?

I'm a Bible student that considers the text in its first audience context - my approach is continuous historic, as this is the chosen methodology God adopts through his prophets. Daniel 2 & 7 are clear examples of this - the four beasts of Revelation is the expansion of the fourth beast of Daniel 7.

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