3.5 Tribulation

[Johann]

I'm a Bible student that considers the text in its first audience context - my approach is continuous historic, as this is the chosen methodology God adopts through his prophets. Daniel 2 & 7 are clear examples of this - the four beasts of Revelation is the expansion of the fourth beast of Daniel 7.

Like this:

View attachment 34462

Nice pictures-so, no futuristic events?


2Ti_2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.



CONSISTENCY AND BALANCE
It must be said that the different schools of modern eschatological interpretation all contain half truths.

They explain and interpret well some texts. The problem lies in consistency and balance. Often there is a set of presuppositions which use the biblical text to fill in the pre-set theological skeleton. The Bible does not reveal a logical, chronological, systematic eschatology.

It is like a family album. The pictures are true, but not always in order, in context, in a logical sequence. Some of the pictures have fallen out of the album and later generations of family members do not know exactly how to put them back. The key to proper interpretation of Revelation is the intent of the original author as revealed in his choice of literary genre.

Most interpreters try to carry their exegetical tools and procedures from other genres of the NT into their interpretations of Revelation. They focus on the OT instead of allowing the teachings of Jesus and Paul to set the theological structure and let Revelation act as illustrative.

I must admit that I approach this commentary on the Revelation with some fear and trepidation, not because of the curse of Rev. 22:18-19, but because of the level of controversy the interpretation of this book has caused and continues to cause among God's people.

I love God's revelation. It is true when all men are liars (cf. Rom. 3:4)! Please use this commentary as an attempt to be thought provoking and not definitive, as a sign post and not a road map, as a "what if," not a "thus says the Lord." I have come face to face with my own inadequacies, biases, and theological agenda. I have also seen those of other interpreters.

It almost seems that people find in Revelation what they expect to find. The genre lends itself to abuse!

However, it is in the Bible for a purpose. Its placement as the concluding "word" is not by accident. It has a message from God to His children of each and every generation. God wants us to understand! Let us join hands, not form camps; let us affirm what is clear and central, not all that may be, might be, could be true. God help us all!

J.

 

[face2face]

Nice pictures-so, no futuristic events?

Certainly is!

 

[Johann]

Certainly is!

Go back to post #41-I made some edits-see if you would agree.
J.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Are you a Preterist?

According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-centuonflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.

I have to smile-everyone is a "scholar on eschatology" on this site, but see how even you guys disagree.



J.

Adding another 2 cents to Johann, I'm not sure what category of theorists I would be because I don't study eschatology. and aren't familiar with the various beliefs. I'm still wrapping up the analysis of Revelation, but thus far I've found that it is a history book written about the entire future of the church starting with the coming of Jesus. Daniel was similar, but the starting point was Nebuchadnezzar's reign during the Old Covenant then it takes readers through the transition to the New Covenant and wraps it up with the end times coming of the eternal church. When considered together they cover the same data points and help clarify them.

 

[Johann]

Adding another 2 cents to Johann, I'm not sure what category of theorists I would be because I don't study eschatology. and aren't familiar with the various beliefs. I'm still wrapping up the analysis of Revelation, but thus far I've found that it is a history book written about the entire future of the church starting with the coming of Jesus. Daniel was similar, but the starting point was Nebuchadnezzar's reign during the Old Covenant then it takes readers through the transition to the New Covenant and wraps it up with the end times coming of the eternal church. When considered together they cover the same data points and help clarify them.

You are aware there is still to this day 4 possible interpretations of Revelation-and even then-they are wrong?



FIRST TENSION (OT racial, national, and geographical categories vs. all believers over all the world)
The OT prophets predict a restoration of a Jewish kingdom in Palestine centered in Jerusalem where all the nations of the earth gather to praise and serve a Davidic ruler, but neither Jesus nor any NT Apostles ever focus on this agenda. Is not the OT inspired (cf. Matt. 5:17-19)? Have the NT authors omitted crucial end-time events?

There are several sources of information about the end of the world.

1. OT prophets (Isaiah, Micah, Malachi)

2. OT apocalyptic writers (cf. Ezekiel 37-39; Daniel 7-12; Zechariah)

3. intertestamental, non-canonical Jewish apocalyptic writers (like I Enoch, which is alluded to in Jude)

4. Jesus Himself (cf. Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21)

5. the writings of Paul (cf. 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 5; 1 Thessalonians 4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2)

6. the writings of John (1 John and Revelation)

Do these all clearly teach an end-time agenda (events, chronology, persons)? If not, why? Are they not all inspired (except the Jewish intertestamental writings)?

The Spirit revealed truths to the OT writers in terms and categories they could understand. However, through progressive revelation the Spirit has expanded these OT eschatological concepts to a universal scope ("the mystery of Christ," cf. Eph. 2:11-3:13). Here are some relevant examples:

1. The city of Jerusalem in the OT is used as a metaphor for the people of God (Zion), but is projected into the NT as a term expressing God's acceptance of all repentant, believing humans (the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation 21-22). The theological expansion of a literal, physical city into the new people of God (believing Jews and Gentiles) is foreshadowed in God's promise to redeem fallen mankind in Gen. 3:15, before there even were any Jews or a Jewish capital city. Even Abraham's call (cf. Gen. 12:1-3) involved the Gentiles (cf. Gen. 12:3; Exod. 19:5).

2. In the OT the enemies of God's people are the surrounding nations of the Ancient Near East, but in the NT they have been expanded to all unbelieving, anti-God, Satanically-inspired people. The battle has moved from a geographical, regional conflict to a worldwide, cosmic conflict (cf. Colossians).

3. The promise of a land which is so integral in the OT (the Patriarchal promises of Genesis, cf. Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 15:7,15,16; 7:8) has now become the whole earth. New Jerusalem comes down to a recreated earth, not the Near East only or exclusively (cf. Revelation 21-22).

4. Some other examples of OT prophetic concepts being expanded are

a. the seed of Abraham is now the spiritually circumcised (cf. Rom. 2:28-29)

b. the covenant people now include Gentiles (cf. Hos. 1:10; 2:23, quoted in Rom. 9:24-26; also Lev. 26:12; Exod. 29:45, quoted in 2 Cor. 6:16-18 and Exod. 19:5; Deut. 14:2, quoted in Titus 2:14)

c. the temple is now Jesus (cf. Matt. 26:61; 27:40; John 2:19-21) and through Him the local church (cf. 1 Cor. 3:16) or the individual believer (cf. 1Cor. 6:19)

d. even Israel and its characteristic descriptive OT phrases now refer to the whole people of God (i.e.,"Israel," cf. Rom. 9:6; Gal. 6:16, i.e.,"kingdom of priests," cf. 1 Pet. 2:5, 9-10; Rev. 1:6)



The prophetic model has been fulfilled, expanded, and is now more inclusive. Jesus and the Apostolic writers do not present the end-time in the same way as the OT prophets (cf. Martin Wyngaarden, The Future of The Kingdom in Prophecy and Fulfillment). Modern interpreters who try to make the OT model literal or normative twist the book of Revelation into a very Jewish book and force meaning into atomized, ambiguous phrases of Jesus and Paul! The NT writers do not negate the OT prophets, but show their ultimate universal implication. There is no organized, logical system to Jesus' or Paul's eschatology. Their purpose is primarily redemptive or pastoral.

However, even within the NT there is tension. There is no clear systemization of eschatological events. In many ways the Revelation surprisingly uses OT allusions in describing the end instead of the teachings of Jesus (cf. Matthew 24; Mark 13)! It follows the literary genre initiated by Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah, but developed during the intertestamental period (Jewish apocalyptic literature). This may have been John's way of linking the Old and New Covenants. It shows the age-old pattern of human rebellion and God's commitment to redemption! But it must be noted that although Revelation uses OT language, persons, and events, it reinterprets them in light of first century Rome (cf. Revelation 17)

J.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Why was John on Patmos to begin with? They had already tried to kill him a few times. What if he actually died, and God changed his body to never age after that? Legend has it that he befriended a youth, and had to leave.

You summarized your whole story about John with this statement. Legends are not facts, they are stories and stories aren't allowed in scripture because they can't be proven as true or false. Only scripture is the proven truth and it's clear that Jesus and the apostles wanted us to stick to the truth.

The age of John is not theological stew, any more than those placing all their ponies into the 70AD event.

All historical data on the death of the disciples has been removed by the great false church - the beast. However, from scripture, including prophecy in Daniel and Revelation, we can assemble everything we need to know the truth.

This post was not written as some theological explanation. It is to point out the reality of the gap between 30AD and 70AD since you complained John was over 70 years old. In 70AD John may have been 50 to 60 years old, since 40 is how many years of a gap between the two most posted about events of the first century.

If John was 50 to 60 years old in AD 70, unless my math is off that would have made him 7 to 17 years old when Jesus selected him in AD 26/27 to be the disciple whom Jesus loved.

How can any one know when a prophecy has been fulfilled or not?

Because both Daniel and Revelation were written to be understood. Take away the theological stew created by other men and focus on just the scripture through prayer, and the answers are there.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

You are aware there is still to this day 4 possible interpretations of Revelation-and even then-they are wrong?

I'm really not aware of this. The Lord gave me an uncanny ability to search documents and solve puzzles, so I've used my background, experience, and answers to prayer to follow the guidance and directions from the Holy Spirit that helps me unravel scripture. I never read the words of others because they are just words and they would replace my focus on the words of scripture with a focus on the words of other people.

FIRST TENSION (OT racial, national, and geographical categories vs. all believers over all the world)
The OT prophets predict a restoration of a Jewish kingdom in Palestine centered in Jerusalem where all the nations of the earth gather to praise and serve a Davidic ruler, but neither Jesus nor any NT Apostles ever focus on this agenda. Is not the OT inspired (cf. Matt. 5:17-19)? Have the NT authors omitted crucial end-time events?

There are several sources of information about the end of the world.

1. OT prophets (Isaiah, Micah, Malachi)

2. OT apocalyptic writers (cf. Ezekiel 37-39; Daniel 7-12; Zechariah)

3. intertestamental, non-canonical Jewish apocalyptic writers (like I Enoch, which is alluded to in Jude)

Yes this is exciting stuff but I haven't gotten there yet. Lord willing this may be my next investigation and all prophetic scripture in the OT will either verify my findings, or shed it will shed additional light on pieces of the conclusions that I didn't initially see.

4. Jesus Himself (cf. Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21)

5. the writings of Paul (cf. 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 5; 1 Thessalonians 4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2)

6. the writings of John (1 John and Revelation)

Been through all this and it supports the conclusions I'm finding. I was trying to work some of this into the summary of Daniel and now in Revelation, but I don't think I'm covering it much. Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are not about the time of the end they are about the lives of the disciples - what they will experience. Paul's writing seemingly contradicts some of what I've found, but when closely reviewed, it supports it.

Do these all clearly teach an end-time agenda (events, chronology, persons)? If not, why? Are they not all inspired (except the Jewish intertestamental writings)?

Some do and some don't as I mentioned above.

The Spirit revealed truths to the OT writers in terms and categories they could understand. However, through progressive revelation the Spirit has expanded these OT eschatological concepts to a universal scope ("the mystery of Christ," cf. Eph. 2:11-3:13). Here are some relevant examples:

1. The city of Jerusalem in the OT is used as a metaphor for the people of God (Zion), but is projected into the NT as a term expressing God's acceptance of all repentant, believing humans (the "new Jerusalem" of Revelation 21-22). The theological expansion of a literal, physical city into the new people of God (believing Jews and Gentiles) is foreshadowed in God's promise to redeem fallen mankind in Gen. 3:15, before there even were any Jews or a Jewish capital city. Even Abraham's call (cf. Gen. 12:1-3) involved the Gentiles (cf. Gen. 12:3; Exod. 19:5).

2. In the OT the enemies of God's people are the surrounding nations of the Ancient Near East, but in the NT they have been expanded to all unbelieving, anti-God, Satanically-inspired people. The battle has moved from a geographical, regional conflict to a worldwide, cosmic conflict (cf. Colossians).

3. The promise of a land which is so integral in the OT (the Patriarchal promises of Genesis, cf. Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 15:7,15,16; 7:8) has now become the whole earth. New Jerusalem comes down to a recreated earth, not the Near East only or exclusively (cf. Revelation 21-22).

4. Some other examples of OT prophetic concepts being expanded are

a. the seed of Abraham is now the spiritually circumcised (cf. Rom. 2:28-29)

b. the covenant people now include Gentiles (cf. Hos. 1:10; 2:23, quoted in Rom. 9:24-26; also Lev. 26:12; Exod. 29:45, quoted in 2 Cor. 6:16-18 and Exod. 19:5; Deut. 14:2, quoted in Titus 2:14)

Maybe we should be working on the followup book together - that is unless you read the summaries and believe me to be crazy.

c. the temple is now Jesus (cf. Matt. 26:61; 27:40; John 2:19-21) and through Him the local church (cf. 1 Cor. 3:16) or the individual believer (cf. 1Cor. 6:19)

Yes this is one of the keys to understanding prophecy. Jesus and his church are the inseparable bridge to the kingdom of God.

However, even within the NT there is tension. There is no clear systemization of eschatological events. In many ways the Revelation surprisingly uses OT allusions in describing the end instead of the teachings of Jesus (cf. Matthew 24; Mark 13)! It follows the literary genre initiated by Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah, but developed during the intertestamental period (Jewish apocalyptic literature). This may have been John's way of linking the Old and New Covenants. It shows the age-old pattern of human rebellion and God's commitment to redemption! But it must be noted that although Revelation uses OT language, persons, and events, it reinterprets them in light of first century Rome (cf. Revelation 17)

Why would God provide John this vision if he didn't want people to understand it? That was the starting point of my investigation.
Blessings, Johann

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

BTW Johann, Has anyone told you that you look like Stallone?

 

[Johann]

Why would God provide John this vision if he didn't want people to understand it? That was the starting point of my investigation.
Blessings, Johann

Not a problem-Scripture is filled with paradoxes and tension-but if you have it all figured out, then I can safely say we have 5 possible interpretations on Revelation-and still can be wrong.
Not being facetious with you brother.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

BTW Johann, Has anyone told you that you look like Stallone?

Yes-kinda "Sly"
Johann.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Not a problem-Scripture is filled with paradoxes and tension-but if you have it all figured out, then I can safely say we have 5 possible interpretations on Revelation-and still can be wrong.
Not being facetious with you brother.
Johann.

I get it. Four years ago I was a professed Christian who couldn't fully commit to Jesus because I thought the story of the Gospel authors was a joke. Why would God send his Son to earth, but hide the names of those who documented the story? To top it off, we were lucky enough to have "early church fathers" tell us who they are. My thought was if you believe this, then there is some waterfront (swamp) property I want to sell you. Then the Lord brought me to my knees and after performing a 'work' investigation on the Gospels and book of Acts I found the story of Jesus to be 100% true, but the Gospel authors to be a phony just as I had suspected for nearly all my life. When the Lord wanted me to look at prophecy I rebelled and didn't want to because I had read Daniel and Revelation numerous times and listened the explanations from others, but they never made sense. The Lord even knew I would rebel - for a time.

I pray, listen and write what I think I'm being told to write. Where the results fit into current theology doesn't matter to me. It also doesn't matter what others think about the results. I'm the biggest and worst critic there is and the results make sense to me, so I believe they will make sense to some and others will want to stick to their theological stew - especially those who have written books and have an investment to protect. I've never seen a reasonable explanation for the seventy sevens, 1,260, 1,290, 1,335, 2,300, nor most of the verses in prophecy, but the explanations coming up soon in Unraveling Daniel and later in Decoding Revelation are reasonable and fit in with the rest of the scripture in the books. It reads as a beautiful and complete story to me, but with that comes a thorough explanation of the corruption that affected the church from day one until the time of the end.

 

[Johann]

I get it. Four years ago I was a professed Christian who couldn't fully commit to Jesus because I thought the story of the Gospel authors was a joke. Why would God send his Son to earth, but hide the names of those who documented the story? To top it off, we were lucky enough to have "early church fathers" tell us who they are. My thought was if you believe this, then there is some waterfront (swamp) property I want to sell you. Then the Lord brought me to my knees and after performing a 'work' investigation on the Gospels and book of Acts I found the story of Jesus to be 100% true, but the Gospel authors to be a phony just as I had suspected for nearly all my life. When the Lord wanted me to look at prophecy I rebelled and didn't want to because I had read Daniel and Revelation numerous times and listened the explanations from others, but they never made sense. The Lord even knew I would rebel - for a time.

I pray, listen and write what I think I'm being told to write. Where the results fit into current theology doesn't matter to me. It also doesn't matter what others think about the results. I'm the biggest and worst critic there is and the results make sense to me, so I believe they will make sense to some and others will want to stick to their theological stew - especially those who have written books and have an investment to protect. I've never seen a reasonable explanation for the seventy sevens, 1,260, 1,290, 1,335, 2,300, nor most of the verses in prophecy, but the explanations coming up soon in Unraveling Daniel and later in Decoding Revelation are reasonable and fit in with the rest of the scripture in the books. It reads as a beautiful and complete story to me, but with that comes a thorough explanation of the corruption that affected the church from day one until the time of the end.

Well-on this thread and two other "eschatological threads" we have members here who have it all "nice and tucked"
-------------------------------------------------

It must be said that the different schools of modern eschatological interpretation all contain half truths.

They explain and interpret well some texts. The problem lies in consistency and balance. Often there is a set of presuppositions which use the biblical text to fill in the pre-set theological skeleton.

The Bible does not reveal a logical, chronological, systematic eschatology. It is like a family album. The pictures are true, but not always in order, in context, in a logical sequence. Some of the pictures have fallen out of the album and later generations of family members do not know exactly how to put them back.

The key to proper interpretation of Revelation is the intent of the original author as revealed in his choice of literary genre.

Most interpreters try to carry their exegetical tools and procedures from other genres of the NT into their interpretations of Revelation. They focus on the OT instead of allowing the teachings of Jesus and Paul to set the theological structure and let Revelation act as illustrative.

I must admit that I approach this commentary on the Revelation with some fear and trepidation, not because of the curse of Rev. 22:18-19, but because of the level of controversy the interpretation of this book has caused and continues to cause among God's people. I love God's revelation.

It is true when all men are liars (cf. Rom. 3:4)!

Please use this commentary as an attempt to be thought provoking and not definitive, as a sign post and not a road map, as a "what if," not a "thus says the Lord."

But then-other threads have "voices" having a regular conversation with the elite-chosen-few, so the "keys to unlocking the book of Revelation" shouldn't be a problem.

God bless
Johann.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

The Bible does not reveal a logical, chronological, systematic eschatology. It is like a family album. The pictures are true, but not always in order, in context, in a logical sequence. Some of the pictures have fallen out of the album and later generations of family members do not know exactly how to put them back.

I found that both Daniel and Revelation were chronological presentations of the future of the church.

I must admit that I approach this commentary on the Revelation with some fear and trepidation, not because of the curse of Rev. 22:18-19, but because of the level of controversy the interpretation of this book has caused and continues to cause among God's people. I love God's revelation.

As we all should!!! I find that Revelation 22:18-19 is a prediction of the theological stew injected into prophecy, such as the untrue story of John being in a Patmos prison at an old age. This tall tale was used to throw off the identity of the two witnesses, so that CATS would point people to the distant future rather than recognizing and addressing the beast in the church. Those false teachers were very crafty and effective followers of evil - much as we see those hucksters on TV who sell Jesus. As I wrote in Decoding Revelation yesterday as I try to wrap up that book, in the NIV the beast is mentioned in Revelation 34 out of the total 36 times the beast is mentioned in the New Testament (using biblegateway.com). In my humble opinion, the beast should be the main topic discussed in sermons that cover Revelation, yet it is an afterthought. Revelation and Daniel are clear on the identity of the beast, yet the church ignores it.

It is true when all men are liars (cf. Rom. 3:4)!

Please use this commentary as an attempt to be thought provoking and not definitive, as a sign post and not a road map, as a "what if," not a "thus says the Lord."

Great comment - thanks. Many people claim to have the correct scripture interpretation and although it may seem like I'm saying this, I don't want to be one of them. I look forward to my words being put to the test and I expect to grow in the word with others as what I write is debated and picked apart. I once had a performance review by some two very mediocre managers sharing the leadership responsibility, that told me "You need to get a masters degree like we have if you want to be promoted." I responded, "I don't want to be like you are, I had a few great mentors who I try to model myself after and they didn't have masters degrees either." I think many put to much faith in PhD theologians who aren't using God as their mentor.

Blessings,

jaz

 

[Zao is life]

We can broaden this-

TRIBULATION (thlipsis)

There needs to be a theological distinction between Paul's use of this term (thlipsis) and John's.



A. Paul's usage (which reflects Jesus' usage)

1. problems, sufferings, evil involved in a fallen world

a. Matt. 13:21

b. Rom. 5:3

c. 1 Cor. 7:28

d. 2 Cor. 7:4

e. Eph. 3:13

2. problems, sufferings, evil caused by unbelievers

a. Rom. 5:3; 8:35; 12:12

b. 2 Cor. 1:4,8; 6:4; 7:4; 8:2,13

c. Eph. 3:13

d. Phil. 4:14

e. 1 Thess. 1:6

f. 2 Thess. 1:4

3. problems, sufferings, evil of the end-time

a. Matt. 24:21,29

b. Mark 13:19,24

c. 2 Thess. 1:6-9

B. John's usage

1. John makes a specific distinction between thlipsis and orgē or thumos (wrath) in Revelation. Thlipsis is what unbelievers do to believers and orgē and thumos is what God does to unbelievers.

a. thlipsis – Rev. 1:9; 2:9-10,22; 7:14

b. orgē – Rev. 6:16-17; 11:18; 16:19; 19:15

c. thumos – Rev. 12:12; 14:8,10,19; 15:1,7; 16:1; 18:3

2. John also uses the term in his Gospel to reflect problems believers face in every age – John 16:33.

J.

Very good observation. God's wrath is always produced by His burning anger, and in both Hebrew and Greek, there are different words that are used interchangeably in reference to both the emotion, and the actions produced by the emotion (sometimes the same word that is used in reference to the burning anger of God is also used for the action produced by the emotion).

HEBREW:

Isaiah 13:13
So I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall move out of its place, in the wrath [‛ebrâh] of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce [chârôn] anger ['aph].

Exodus 15:7
And in the greatness of Your excellency You have overthrown them that rose up against You. You sent forth Your wrath [chârôn], consuming them like stubble.

‛ebrâh H5679 Feminine of H5676; an outburst of passion: - {anger} {rage} wrath.
chârôn H2740 From H2734 (BELOW); a burning of anger: - sore {displeasure} fierce ({-ness}) {fury} (fierce) wrath (-ful).
chârâh H2734 to glow or grow warm; figuratively (usually) to blaze {up} of {anger} {zeal} jealousy: - be {angry} {burn} be {displeased} X {earnestly} fret {self} {grieve} be (wax) {hot} be {incensed} {kindle} X {very} be wroth.
'aph H639 From H599 (BELOW); properly the nose or nostril; hence the {face} and occasionally a person; also (from the rapid breathing in passion) ire: - anger
'ânaph H599 A primitive root; to breathe {hard} that {is} be enraged: - be angry (displeased).

GREEK:

Ephesians 4:31
Let all bitterness and (English translation): wrath [thymós] and anger [orgḗ] and tumult and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.

Revelation 16:19
And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger [thymós] of His wrath [orgḗ].

thymós, G2372 from 2380 (BELOW); passion (as if breathing hard):--fierceness, indignation, wrath.
thýō, 02380 A primary verb; properly, to rush (breathe hard, blow, smoke), i.e. (by implication) to sacrifice (properly, by fire, but genitive case); by extension to immolate (slaughter for any purpose):--kill, (do) sacrifice, slay.
orgḗ, 03709 from 3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

As far as the action produced by the emotion (the burning anger) is concerned, there is only one type of it, but different words are used interchangeably in reference to both the emotion, and the actions produced by the emotion.
​

1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God has not appointed us to wrath [orgḗ], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 5:8-10
"But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath [orgḗ] through Him.
For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

It's just as you say: Thlipsis (tribulation) is what unbelievers do to believers and orgē and thumos (wrath) is what God does to unbelievers.

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger, but it’s not always a final judgement, nor is it always a universal judgment: A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

The New Testament consistently makes this distinction. It's a misnomer to call "the winepress of the wrath of God" that Jesus Himself will tread by the term "tribulation" or "great tribulation". The Pre-tribulation theology was dead on arrival when it was first introduced to Western churches.

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24 is not about the time of the end, it is all about the lives of the disciples.

Absolutely false statement, that above is.

Those who don't realize that Christ in His Olivet discourse was giving the 7 main SIGNS of the end of this world leading up to His future return reveal they in no way understand His Book of Revelation either, because those SIGNS parallel directly the Seals of Revelation 6.

So brethren, I'd be careful listening to deceived folks like the above person.

 

[Davy]

If you find a verse, describing "when" God actually shortened the time I would be very interested.

If you recognize that we are on the cusp of the 4th seal then you recognize that there was a start date to the Tribulation. If it is march 11, 2020 then counting 2300 days is august 2026. Back tracking in order to include the two witnesses it would mean that they are here since Jan 2023.

My complaint is with the false notion you raised in the original post, that Jesus fulfilled the first half of the Daniel 9:27 "one week", i.e., the 3.5 years first part you mentioned. That is impossible, and that's why I complained, and I refuse to believe that you failed to understand how I balked at that idea in my previous posts here.

Because you have corrupted the Scriptures by even suggesting... that Jesus could have fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, there's no way I'm going to show you what He shortened the tribulation to. Ask Him.

Furthermore, and you really need to understand this; the actual time of the "great tribulation" linked to the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 is about the LATTER HALF of that "one week". That means the LATTER 3.5 years of the 7 years. The false-Messiah kicks that LATTER HALF of 3.5 years off with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in a new physical temple built in Jerusalem at the very end of this world.

 

[Zao is life]

CONSISTENCY AND BALANCE
It must be said that the different schools of modern eschatological interpretation all contain half truths.

The above statement is the full truth.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Absolutely false statement, that above is.

Those who don't realize that Christ in His Olivet discourse was giving the 7 main SIGNS of the end of this world leading up to His future return reveal they in no way understand His Book of Revelation either, because those SIGNS parallel directly the Seals of Revelation 6.

So brethren, I'd be careful listening to deceived folks like the above person.

Yes, I am one of "those." This reads like a challenge, so prove me wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm a Bible student that considers the text in its first audience context - my approach is continuous historic, as this is the chosen methodology God adopts through his prophets. Daniel 2 & 7 are clear examples of this - the four beasts of Revelation is the expansion of the fourth beast of Daniel 7.

Like this:

View attachment 34462

Except you are skipping over a few steps.

"And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom."

These kings are not the 4th kingdom, Rome was. The fifth kingdom is the 10 toes.

The dragon did involve the first 4 kingdoms. But it involved the 5th kingdom as well.

Revelation 17 clearly says 5 are fallen. The 6th has a mortal wound according to Revelation 13.

The 6th kingdom has been the state of humanity since the 5th kingdom fell.

Not even Daniel was given information on the 5th and 6th kingdoms, other than there were ten toes of iron and clay.

You claim Daniel 7 is just rehashing the first four. Some have attributed them to modern nations. How would we know even if you claim to have unlocked some mystery?

The dragon is meaningless if you think all 4 heads are applicable for a future reality. The only head that is future is that of Satan's government. John calls this the 8th kingdom. At what point in history would you accept the first 5 kingdoms are fallen, and no longer viable, according to a continuous historical method?

 

[Timtofly]

If John was 50 to 60 years old in AD 70, unless my math is off that would have made him 7 to 17 years old when Jesus selected him in AD 26/27 to be the disciple whom Jesus loved.

That was my point.

Do you think that is old?

Saying he was older in 26AD, does not make him younger in 70AD, nor 90-96AD.