7 Common Errors of Interpretation for Chapters 4-6 of Revelation

[6 Stories]

So, read Dann. 11:40-43, he conquers COUNTRIES to get at Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Turkey which is also foretold in Dan. 8:9 via the direction he conquers from, the Northwest towards the East which is Seleucus/Turkey and South which is Egypt/Ptolemy. Dann. 11:40-43 then says Edom, Ammon and Moab will not be conquered, that just so happens to be where Israel flees unto during the 70th week, the 1/3 who repents, the Woman of Rev. 12 et al. Then he conquers all of North Africa. Now look at the European Neighborhood Policy on Wikipedia and elsewhere, it just so happens that the E.U. has deals in place (7 year deals I might add) with every nation shown above in Orange. When he goes forth conquering, this is who he conquers, not the whole world, then and ONLY THEN will the Beast be HEALED or Revived. The reason God says the 10 (Complete Europe) kings rule with the Beast is the E.U. is his base, he then conquers Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region area where he heals the heretofore and UNDER THE SEA, Wounded Seven Headed Beast System, who has been dead and under water for nigh 2000 years because the gates of hell could not overcome the Church.

So, the Church is not a part of these events, Israel had a mission, Birth the Messiah "CHECK" and to Rule with Christ during the Kingdom Age for 1000 years "SOON TO COME" The Church had one mission, to take the Gospel unto the whole world "CHECK" via TV and Satellites and our modern tech via phones, instant messaging etc. etc. this has been completed, we are now just awaiting ONE EVENT.

Beasts are world empires with power to kill anyone, 100%. There were 4. 1 - Babylon, 2 - Media-Persia, 3 - Greece, 4 - Rome
Heads are beasts plus derivitives of beasts that rule Israel. There have been 6 heads. 1 - Babylon, 2 - Media-Persia, 3 - Greece, 4 - Ptolemy, 5 - Seleucus, 6 - Rome. The 7th will also be Rome for the 70th week. However, the city of Rome will only rule this empire for the 1st half of the 70th week, during the time of "peace and safety.' The 8th will be Seleucus as it takes power from Rome for the 2nd half of the 70th week. Three of the 10 kings that will be replaced during the last 42 months will be from Italy, Israel, and Egypt.

Israel will join the E.U. imho, and this kicks everything off. The 70th week starts and the Church is Raptured. Its not a secret rapture, Paul told us about in several places, 2 Thess. 2:3 shows the Church must DEPART before the Day of the Lord arrives. Its not a DEPARTING of the faith, the Gathering unto Christ is spoken about in vs. 1, NOWHERE is Faith ever mentioned in the whole passage.

And yet we can see it happening. Post Christians Europe. America is falling away. This is being fulfilled. When Christians no longer stand up against evil (the 5th seal), the last world empire will form.

So, look on either side of the Church and you see the same Kingdom, look at the Statue, you have Iron legs, THEN.........Iron and Clay feet & toes which means the 10 (Completion) is the same nation, the E.U. but with many nations trying to be one which is why Clay is used, its not a cohesive nation ruled by force like Rome was, its a collection of many, many nations who freely give their power unto the Beast (A.C.). If the Church can not be overcome by the gates of hell then how can the Beast ever rule?

The falling away?

There is a huge difference in individuals being Martyred and the Church being overcome, the fact is we the Church DELIVERED the Mortal Wound to the Beast, not the other way around, we converted the Beast Rome unto a Christian Nation, we overcame the Beast !! Amen, via our blood. We the church WILL NOT be overcome by the Gates of hell, never ever will that happen, Jesus said so.

Even as individuals in Christ, we can't be overcome. We can fall away. We can't lose our faith, but we can leave our faith as individuals and nations.

There are tons of other things that point to a pre 70th week rapture, people who do not understand the Rapture's timing are just not, IMHO, able to grasp the full facts, they have tunnel vision. You do nit want to see what you do nit want to see. The Jewish bride and groom always spend 7 days in the wedding chambers at the fathers house.

Israel was betrothed to God at Mt. Sinai at the giving of the law. God came down for that! Lightnings, thunders, voices, and an earthquake - Ex 19. When do they spend their 7 days at the fathers house?

We return with Jesus in Rev. 19 and the A.C. and his minions are still on the earth. We see the Church in Rev. 4:1 being raptured as Jesus sounds the LAST TRUMP. We understand the Harvest always ended via the Feast of Trumps, we understand Jesus fulfilled the 1.) Passover (his death) and also 2.) Unleavened Bread (he knew no sin) 2.) The First-fruits (He was the first to overcome death) and that we are now in the 4.) Feast of Week or Harvest/Pentecost, and we are saving souls as the Church for the High Priest in heaven, Jesus, who will end "THE HARVEST" via the "LAST TRUMP" or 5.) Feast of Trumps. Then and ONLY THEN can Israel repent (it goes back to my Romans 9-11 points) because the 6.)Feast of Atonement was POINTING towards an End Time Israel repenting, and then lastly the 1000 year Kingdom Age is fulfilled by the 7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to Tabernacle means to DWELL with God) where Israel will dwell with God for 1000 years.

The Feasts were practiced by Israel over 3000 years ago, they had no clue what they meant, so don't you find it interesting that Jesus has to fulfill all 7 Feasts and that 6 are about Israel, and one is about the Summer Feast or "The Harvest" which just so happens to be the Churches mission on this earth? Then in Rev. 4:1 we see that Jesus tells John to "come up here" and John says he sounds as a "TRUMP". This happens right after the "THINGS WHICH ARE" Church Age ends (the 7 Churches = Divine Completion) in Revv. 3 and John is then told everything else he sees will be the "HEREAFTER" or 70th week. Its all so simple my friend, you guys complicate it by jumping to illogical conclusions or by listening to men who don't understand what they are talking about on prophecy.

CONTINUED..........

Dan 11:40-44
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north (Seleucus) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. (Jordan)
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. (Only Egypt is conquered before AC turns back to the north.)
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

Dan 11:40-44 is also described by the 6th trumpet of Revelation.

Ez 38-39 reveals the countries that alarm AC and cause him to turn north. The Libyans and Ethiopians join the northern countries against AC. However, AC get them all to join him to fight against Jesus. Rev 16:12-14
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

 

[6 Stories]

1 Cor. 15 is "The Rapture" those who are Dead in Christ will be raised and those who are alive will be CHANGED (this means we shed or flesh sins, in simple terms, we DIE and our spirit man goes straight to heaven because no sin flesh can enter heaven).

We are at an impasse because you restate things which are not found in the Bible. The rapture by definition is the "catching up." The Bible does not say anyone is caught up in 1 Cor 15 even though you believe that they are. What more can be said?

Of course there is, we have a mission on earth, out mission is different than Israel's mission.


You are confused brother, the CHANGE is 1 billion Christians dying, there are now 2 Billion Christians on this earth, we know Jesus says only 5 of the 10 virgins make the wedding call, now you know why ONE is taken and ONE left in Mattt. 24:36-51, its the exact same 50 % ratio. We return with Jesus and then ONLY the Jews serve with Jesus during the Kingdom Age as per human beings, the Martyrs of Rev. 20:4 will serve and reign with Jesus on this earth for 1000 years, but ONLY THOSE which refuse the Mark of the Beast which means they had to be alive during the 70th week AND be converted to Christ during the 70th week, which means no one not living during the 70th week will rule with Jesus on this earth during his 1000 year reign. Go read it, ONLY THOSE who refused the Mark of the Beast rules with Jesus for the 1000 years with Glorious bodies. HINT God doesn't need billions with Glorious bodies on earth, we will be in Heaven, IMHO, finishing off the New Jerusalem, that is why when it descends its called the Bride of Christ.

The Bible says that the change is the transformation of mortal bodies to immortal bodies no matter what you believe. I can't change your opinion on broader issues when we disagree about basic definitions.

Death and hell (hades/the grave) is cast into the lake of fire along with Satan, after the 1000 years, which is over a 1000 years after the Rapture.

I think believers will die during the time of Jesus reign on earth. What do you think happens to them?

No, we go to heaven as Spirit men, we will be there in a flash, Satan and his Demons travel as Spirit men, why would God need to give us a body just to travel? We go to heaven in a FLASH and then we receive our glorious body in a grand ceremonial event, not flying through the air. The CHANGING is those who are alive, it says so in the scripture, we DIE, or our Spirit leaves our body to go be with the Lord. Pssstt, now you know in part what the COVID 19 event was all about, prepping the world for one billion deaths.

We will also come out of our graves.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 11:24 "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Before Jesus rose, OT saints could not enter into heaven.
Acts 2:29-34
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:

Well sorta, but the fact is after 33 AD God left the Temple (He rent it or left) and in 70 AD God saw Israel from that point on as Dead Men's Bones so they were not an entity in God's eyes, and since each Beast is over Israel, they were placed over Israel to achieve a goal of repentance, then Israel not being around means there can't be a Beast over Israel (of course) any longer, but since the beast was around before Israel died off, Rome was still technically a Beast until they fell because in Rev. 17 we see that 5 Kings have fallen, and ONE IS (which means Rome would fall later), and then the LAST BEAST (A.C./Little Horn) would be the 7th and final Beast who will fall. But The Church OVERCAME the Beast, we delivered the Mortal Wound of Rev. 13.

The 7th beast is not the final beast. That is why the Bible refers to an 8th beast.
Rev 17:10-11
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I agree that the one is, was Rome that would fall. The 7th head is over a Roman Empire. This is not AC! (First half of 70th week)
The 8th head, the Seleucus head will take power from Rome and rule the Roman Empire from Seleucia. (Second half of 70th week)

Besides all that, the HEREAFTER is referring to the 70th week Beast which is the A.C. not Rome.

Did you read Dan 2?

Jesus is Eternal, John was created, Jesus was raised to the Heaven just after his death. John was shown the vision in 90ish AD. 90 AD comes after 33 AD. Besides all that, you point makes no sense brother. The Lamb was always in Heaven, if you are saying he was not there in Rev. 4, that just means John did not understand the symbolism at first, the Dead Lamb was Jesus.

Was Jesus in heaven when he was a man on earth?

Well, its only repetition if they happen again, not if they are firstly prophesied. Joel 2:31 and the 6th Seal are both POINTING TOWARDS (Prophesying) about a coming Asteroid Impact or Day of the Lord God's Wrath on mankind. Everything starts with the Asteroid Impact as seen in Rev. 8 via Trumps 1-4.

The repetition refers to the 6 times that the last plague is mentioned throughout the Revelation.

But I am correct, so the impasse is a bad chess move on your part my brother.

There is no relevance to repeating the same moves, which is what much of our discussion had become. I am happy to continue discussing things we have not gone over.

 

[6 Stories]

Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Jesus was already reigning since Calvary, more than four centuries before the ten kings.

Matthew 6
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Present tense when written.

Heaven and Earth are currently under 2 separate dominions.
Heaven is and always has been under the dominion of God.
God gave dominion over the Earth to mankind.
Mankind gave dominion over the Earth to Satan when we chose to follow Satan into sin in Gen 3.
Satan rules over the earth to this day.
Christians are ambassadors for Christ. Our spirits are part of God's Kingdom even while our bodies are in a foreign kingdom on earth.
God does have ultimate authority, even on earth, so he intervenes in Satan's kingdom on earth.
The millennial kingdom is the time God removes Satan from earth and retakes dominion over the earth.

I hope you don't think the Reformation is all that has been promised!

 

[ewq1938]

The 7th trumpet comes from an angel.
The last trump is the voice of God the Father, just as the trump of 1 Thes 4 is the voice of God the Father.
Therefore, the 7th trump and the last trump are different.

No, the last trump is sounded by an angel. It is his voice that is heard as a shout from a trumpet.

Rev 1:10-11
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

That isn't a trump sounding.

 

[covenantee]

Heaven and Earth are currently under 2 separate dominions.
Heaven is and always has been under the dominion of God.
God gave dominion over the Earth to mankind.
Mankind gave dominion over the Earth to Satan when we chose to follow Satan into sin in Gen 3.
Satan rules over the earth to this day.
Christians are ambassadors for Christ. Our spirits are part of God's Kingdom even while our bodies are in a foreign kingdom on earth.
God does have ultimate authority, even on earth, so he intervenes in Satan's kingdom on earth.
The millennial kingdom is the time God removes Satan from earth and retakes dominion over the earth.

I hope you don't think the Reformation is all that has been promised!

You're noticeably short on Scripture.

As you recognized:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


Affirmed:

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Satan does not and cannot rule those in the kingdom of the Father's dear Son.
That is the kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
An extant reality.
No waiting necessary for a millennial kingdom.
The Reformers understood.
So can you.

 

[6 Stories]

No, the last trump is sounded by an angel. It is his voice that is heard as a shout from a trumpet.

What is your evidence?

That isn't a trump sounding.

I agree. It is the voice of God as is the last trump in 1 Cor 15.

 

[6 Stories]

You're noticeably short on Scripture.

As you recognized:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


Affirmed:

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Satan does not and cannot rule those in the kingdom of the Father's dear Son.
That is the kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
An extant reality.
No waiting necessary for a millennial kingdom.
The Reformers understood.
So can you.

You are correct in what you state.
The part you seem to be missing is that God's kingdom is not currently visible. That will change during the millennial kingdom.

I will quote my last post and use Bible references so that I am not short.

Heaven and Earth are currently under 2 separate dominions.
2 Cor 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Heaven is and always has been under the dominion of God.
Is 57:15 "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

God gave dominion over the Earth to mankind.
Gen 1:26 " And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Mankind gave dominion over the Earth to Satan when we chose to follow Satan into sin in Gen 3.
Matt 4:8-10
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Satan rules over the earth to this day.
Eph 2:2 " Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Christians are ambassadors for Christ. Our spirits are part of God's Kingdom even while our bodies are in a foreign kingdom on earth.
2 Cor 5:20 "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God."

God does have ultimate authority, even on earth, so he intervenes in Satan's kingdom on earth.
Matt 6:6 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

The millennial kingdom is the time God removes Satan from earth and retakes dominion over the earth.
Rev 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[covenantee]

You are correct in what you state.
The part you seem to be missing is that God's kingdom is not currently visible. That will change during the millennial kingdom.

I will quote my last post and use Bible references so that I am not short.

Heaven and Earth are currently under 2 separate dominions.
2 Cor 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Heaven is and always has been under the dominion of God.
Is 57:15 "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

God gave dominion over the Earth to mankind.
Gen 1:26 " And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Mankind gave dominion over the Earth to Satan when we chose to follow Satan into sin in Gen 3.
Matt 4:8-10
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Satan rules over the earth to this day.
Eph 2:2 " Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Christians are ambassadors for Christ. Our spirits are part of God's Kingdom even while our bodies are in a foreign kingdom on earth.
2 Cor 5:20 "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God."

God does have ultimate authority, even on earth, so he intervenes in Satan's kingdom on earth.
Matt 6:6 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

The millennial kingdom is the time God removes Satan from earth and retakes dominion over the earth.
Rev 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Yes, His Kingdom is not visible. That's the Kingdom of His dear Son. That's the Kingdom that I'm in.

You're free to wait for your millennial kingdom.

I'm completely satisfied with the Kingdom of His dear Son that I'm in.

 

[ewq1938]

What is your evidence?

It says "voice of the angel". The voice is going through the trumpet.

I agree. It is the voice of God as is the last trump in 1 Cor 15.

No, because there is no trump there. It's also LONG before any of the last trumps sound, real trumpets not things as loud as a trumpet which isn't a trumpet at all.



1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other passage makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which end times trumpet Christ returns in:

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here we have the end of the Tribulation, and the sounding of the last of the 7 trumps. Though not explicitly mentioned here, I think the language does highly imply Christ's second coming is at this time. The second coming is directly tied to the time for wrath:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


We see this wrath in greater detail here:


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So, the "last trump" is the same as the last of the 7 trumpets of Revelation and it is when Christ returns, the dead in Christ rise and the rapture all take place.

 

[Davy]

I agree with this, but in war there are casualties on both sides. In order to kill those who refuse to bow, AC is willing to sacrifice his whole army. Mankind would be wiped out without God's intervention.

We must stick with what God's Word says about these events, especially when speculating. The battle that happens when Jesus returns on the last day is when Satan's armies will be defeated (i.e, on the 7th trumpet, 7th vial). The war on the saints Satan will do during the time of "great tribulation" which is PRIOR to Christ's day of return. Recall per Rev.13:4-8 the "dragon" (Satan) will be given power over all nations and peoples at the end for 42 months (latter 1260 day period which is when the time of "great tribulation" will be).

I agree that it will take some time to put up this image of the beast, but why do you say that it won't be until the very End of the great tribulation? The reign of AC and the FP comes to an end at the very end of the great tribulation.

I did not mean 'after' the "great tribulation", but towards its end of it. Recall the 10 days of trial Jesus said the Church of Smyrna will have, and to remain faithful even unto death. That is symbolically linked to the time of Daniel when he was to remain in care for 3 years, and then be delivered up after the 3 years to king Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 1:5). Neb made a gold idol image and passed a decree for everyone to bow to it in worship at the sound of the psalter, or be delivered up and killed. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nigo being delivered up for not bowing symbolically points to the events towards the end of the great tribulation, because their cast into the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, with Neb seeing a Fourth Man with the appearance of The Son of God in that furnace with them, and their coming out of that furnace with no harm, not even their clothes smelled of smoke, represents the day of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints. That fiery furnace represents God's 'consuming fire' that is to happen on the last day of this world, the "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10). And Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:11 revealed about Old Testament events as types of "ensamples" for us, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

I agree with the comparison, but Nebuchadnezzar did not wait until the end of his rule to set up the image.

That's right, and Daniel and his fellows being delivered up didn't happen until after... Neb had that gold idol setup in false worship. What is foretold for the idol at the end of this world, per the Book of Daniel and where Jesus quoted from Daniel about the end? Jesus quoted from Daniel 11:31 about the placing of an IDOL in the temple at Jerusalem for the end of this world, during the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:15-31). Per Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 we are shown old covenant worship will be going on for the "great tribulation" time, because those Daniel verses point to the coming Antichrist ending the daily sacrifices, and placing that idol in a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem. That is what will kick off the start of "great tribulation".

I also agree with this.

The fact remains that God will have to intercede in order for life to continue according to these words.

Your statement assumes that the future time of "great tribulation" is going to be like world war 3, or a time of great massacres of God's people. Not necessarily.

Luke 21:12-19
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
KJV

Jesus showed some of us will be put to death for refusing to bow to the future "image of the beast", or reject his mark. But for others, not one hair on our head shall perish, suggesting His return will happen prior to those being executed. Furthermore, it will be only... those who stand in Christ during that time that reject bowing to that idol image or taking the mark, that Satan will come after. Satan won't be concerned with the 'deceived' in Christ's Church. So the preachers who push ideas of indiscriminate killing for the time of "great tribulation" need to study deeper. And the preachers on the false pre-trib rapture theory push those indiscriminate killing ideas for the 'left-behind' to try and scare brethren into accepting their false pre-trib rapture theories. Hal Lindsay's books and Time LaHaye's books and movies are especially written for that purpose. But they are not following the Word of God on the matter. Jesus showed that the tribulation will be time when all wars and rumors of wars have stopped, and that means a time of world peace under the coming false-Messiah. This is why Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.5 that when 'they' (the deceived), say "Peace and safety", that is when the "sudden destruction" (last day) will come upon 'them' (the deceived). In Daniel 8, we are shown the 'king of fierce countenance' at the END will destroy many using 'peace'. Putting all that together means we have to re-consider how Lord Jesus meant Matthew 24:22.

 

[Davy]

The 4 living creatures and the 24 elders sing songs 1 and 2 below:

Song 1 Rev 4:11 " Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

This song reflects the fact that mankind was originally saved by faith in their Creator God. It would have been sung in heaven for everyone with faith in this Creator beginning with Adam. Mankind is not in heaven during from Adam until the ascension of Jesus into heaven.

Song 2 Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The new song reflects a new reality. The same heavenly creatures sing about the fact that mankind is saved by faith in their Redeemer God, Jesus. It has been sung in heaven since the moment of Jesus' arrival in heaven after he was a man. After Jesus' arrival, the spirits of mankind are allowed into heaven.

Song 3 Rev 14:2-3
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

This new song reflects another new reality. Not only the spirits, but also the bodies of the 144,000 are allowed into heaven.

Each song begins when the reality of it begins.

The "new song" and the "song of Moses" are sung AFTER... Christ's future return by His elect, not before. This is why they are shown singing the new song in Rev.14 "before the throne", and in Rev.15 the song of Moses standing on the sea of glass after having gotten victory over the beast.

I agree. This is the earthquake that ends the period of great tribulation. It is the earthquake that occurs when the 2 witnesses arise.

You are not agreeing with what I showed. The following verses are PRIOR to the end of the "great tribulation". Instead, the following verses are about the START of the time of "great tribulation"...

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

Ever heard of the phrase 'smoke and mirrors'? That's what Satan's mimic of Christ coming will be, with a FAKE earthquake, just not the one that will happen when Jesus comes. How can we know this?

It is because of those phrases in red in the next verse. Who was it that fell from Heaven like a star? Who were the 'stars' that the "red dragon" of Rev.12:3-4 drew to earth with him in rebellion against God? That is about Satan and his angels. But why... would that be shown within the 6th Seal timing? It's because that is when Satan comes as the Antichrist at the end of this world for the tribulation time. That means these two verses on the 6th Seal are "great tribulation" timing. The verses after the above are about the last day when Jesus returns. But here, these Rev.6:12-13 verses is trib timing.

That phrase "as a fig tree casteth her UNTIMELY FIGS" I also explained, as it is about real horticultural of the fig. It represents the 'winter fig' that grows in the winter, but falls off in the spring. But when is the time of symbolic harvest that Jesus used for gathering of His saints? Jesus said SUMMER. So don't you see this contrast between a WINTER vs SUMMER gathering? The untimely figs represents falling away to the false-Messiah that comes first during the "great tribulation". It's that simple.

This verse is about the tear in the firmament that separates the waters above from the waters below. People on earth will get a glimpse into heaven just after the earthquake of Rev 6:12. The 2 witnesses/144,000 will be seen in heaven.

The way I explain it is that on the "day of the Lord", the last day of this present world, and the day when Jesus returns, the Heavenly dimension will no longer be hidden and invisible. This is who those at the end of the 6th Seal will 'see' The Father sitting upon His throne in Heaven, and wish to hide from Him and from Jesus' coming. That will happen because on that day, the "last trump" like Paul said will occur at the 'twinkling of an eye', all still alive on earth will be 'changed' to their spirit body, casting off the flesh. At that time, the Heavenly dimension will be joined with the earthly dimension, as it was before Adam's fall and God walked in the Paradise on earth, per Gen.2. At the end of Gen.3 is when He moved His Abode, separating His Heavenly dimension from this earthly one.

Rev 12:3-4 is about Satan trying to kill the infant Jesus. See Matt 2.

The Rev.12:1-5 verses are a short summary from the beginning all the way to the future time of Christ's reign with the "rod of iron". So you have to remember about the time of Satan's original rebellion against God in that old world, which caused his fall, and that he drew those 1/3 of angels to earth in rebellion with him. That happened in the old world, prior... to the time of Adam and Eve. And that is what the following parts in 'red' are about...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

In the world prior to Adam and Eve, Satan (then called Lucifer), had been exalted by God, and ruled over a kingdom of nations back then in that old world. This is not often taught in the Church, but there's plenty enough Scripture where God points to it, but in parable form. It is what the Ezekiel 28 and Ezekiel 31 Scripture is about, also Isaiah 14. And here Jesus reveals that Lucifer's original rebellion involved a 3rd of the angels going into rebellion with him, and... with a beast system on earth that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns (note in Rev.13:1 the final beast kingdom for the end of this world is to have ten crowns).

Then the last phrase is what you are referring to, "and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for the devour her child as soon as it was born", and is actually about Abel, representing the Seed of the Woman that Christ would be born through. And truly, it is covering the whole Seed line of the symbolic Woman from Abel to Christ Who is to rule in final with the "rod of iron".

Rev 12:7-17 is what happens in heaven during the first 4 trumpets. There is woe on earth after 4 trumpets, which is also seen in Rev 12:12 because Satan has been cast from heaven to earth. It will take Satan some time to form the last world empire, the last 3.5 years of that empire, Satan will rule. Only those 3.5 years are the great tribulation.

Lord Jesus gave us the last THREE TRUMPETS to concentrate on with the signs of the end leading up to His return. Each one of those last 3 trumpets contain a Woe with them.

5th Trumpet (Rev.8:13 to Rev.9:12) - 1st Woe period = preparation time by Satan's host on earth towards deception. God's servants 'sealed' in prep for the "five months" stinging (deception). This is linked with the Joel prophecy about the locust army that God showed He sends for the end of this world. The locusts represent power given to Satan's workers here on earth for takeover of all nations and peoples in prep for the time of "great tribulation".

6th Trumpet - (Rev.9:12 to Rev.11:14) - 2nd Woe period = the actually time of "great tribulation". Rev.9:12 forward reveals the time that is prepared for an hour, a day, a month, and a year, happens with the four angels at the river Euphrates are loosed. The river Euphrates was the most northern border that God promised the Israelites. In Rev.9 it represent a 'spiritual' border at the end between God's people and Satan and his host on earth. The Rev.12:7-9 events of the war in Heaven, and no more place then found for Satan, is for the end of this world, for the time of "great tribulation" especially. Satan and his angels are coming, like Jesus said in the Book of John. And that means into OUR earthly dimension, with the image of man, for God created the angels with His outward image of man also. This is who the coming Antichrist, false-Messiah, will be, Satan de facto coming to play God, on earth, with the power of great signs and wonders and miracles. If you are still here to see it in the future, then I hope you remember this.

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period continues all the way through to Rev.11:14, which is just prior to the last day when Lord Jesus returns. When the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying unburied in the street of Jerusalem suddenly arise after 3.5 days, the 7th trumpet will then quickly sound Jesus' coming.

 

[Davy]

The great multitude died and went to heaven. Death is the means by which they came out of the great tribulation.

The Rev.7 Scripture does not actually say if they died. It says they "...came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

That could simply mean they 'waited' for Jesus' coming all throughout the great tribulation, and were gathered by Christ from the earth on His return per 1 Thess.4:17, and Mark 13:27. Refusing to bow to the "image of the beast", and not taking his mark, and thus suffering persecution at the end for that, can be that idea of having washed their robes in Christ. That certainly would be enough, even if they were not killed.

There were 3 festivals that all Jewish males were supposed to attend, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.
Jesus was the firstfruits of Passover.
Christians are the firstfruits of Pentecost.
The 144,000 will be the firstfruits of Tabernacles.

I cannot agree with that last speculation. ALL those that died in Christ Jesus represent the 'firstfruits' of the resurrection, and even include those in Christ still alive on the day of His coming. Reason I say that is because the "first resurrection" of Rev.20 represents the 1st of at least one more LIKE it. If there was to be no 2nd resurrection unto Christ then that ordinal number "first" would not have been used. There will be another, at the Great White Throne Judgment. That is when the book of life is looked at to see if any names are written in it. That cannot apply to Christ's elect of the "first resurrection", since we are told in the start of Rev.20 that they are not subject to the "second death", so no need to see if their names are written again.

Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His very elect of the "first resurrection" is for this very purpose, to teach to the unsaved nations The Gospel, which for many in that time, it will be their first... time to actually hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am convinced that the majority of the unsaved nations will convert to Jesus Christ in that time, and their names will be found in the book of life at the GWT Judgment.

Therefore, I see those of the "first resurrection" representing Christ's firstfruits after His resurrection (those who came out of their graves after His resurrection included).

 

[Timtofly]

A government leader tries to take over the world through war. War brings famine and pestilence. Death from the government leader, war, famine, and pestilence, is limited to 25% of the population. No government leader has had the ability to bring death to more than 25% of the world population in any generation since the first century.

There will be a future government leader that will be able to bring death to the whole generation of people on earth, but God will intervene before he is successful.

AC will reign for exactly 42 months. During his reign, he will bring death to 1/3 of the world population as stated in Rev 9:13. "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." To believe that AC will kill 1/4 plus 1/3 of the earth is contrary to what is stated in Rev 9:13.

The time of the 6th trumpet from Rev 9:13 to Rev 11:14 contains the whole 42-month reign of AC. Chapter 13 of the Revelation covers this same period of time.

The rapture is not part of any of these verses.

John is telling us that 2 billion humans will be harvested from the earth during the Seals. Then 2 billion more during the Trumpets. Then keeping on track, 2 billion during the Thunders. That is 6 billion. The church alive and remain makes up another 2 billion.

The point is that it is God doing the harvesting, not Satan nor any AC. People who die from external conflict outside of the harvest itself is simply normal everyday life.

The rapture of the church is the first harvest of the Second Coming. The church is not what is left over at the end, and then caught up.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Israel is blinded until the end of that 70th week.

This is not true, Zech. 13:8-9 tells us Israel repents just before the Day of the Lord (1260 middle of the week). Since God requires FAITH ALONE in order to make heaven, if Jesus just showed up and saved a FAITHLESS Israel, that makes God a liar, He could have saved a faithless Israel in 33 AD or 70 AD.

In the end of Matt. 23 Jesus prophesies that the next time they will see him they will be saying Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. So, they do not get saved when Jesus shows up. That just not very good eschatology brother.

Zech. 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

So, 1/3 or 5 million Jews REPENT..........THEN God's Wrath falls in the very next verse !!

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The above is the 1260 Event of Dan. 12:7, Israel's power is scattered, those 1/3 who repent Flee Judea, the 2/3 will die. THEN.............Jesus shows up 1260 days later.........BELOW:

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Israel repents at the 1335 (Two-witnesses, then the AoD happens at the 1290, which is 45 days after the 1335 and 30 days before the 1260 middle of the week. This gives the Jews who repented 30 days to flee Judea. How do they know to flee? They do not read Matt. 24 !! They repent via Elijah (and Moses imho beaus of the transfiguration) just as Malachi 4:5 says. Elijah will be sent back BEFORE the DOTL. It all meshes and fits because its truth brother. Even the Two-witnesses dying at the 2nd Woe and the Beast dying at the 7th Vial, PROVES............they must show up before the Beast come to power, because both have 1260 day ordained by God timelines on this earth. The Two-witnesses to witness for 1260 days and the Beast to dominate Israel for 1260 days. So, since the Two-witnesses die first they have to show up first. Hence the 1335 is 1335 days until Jesus shows up to end all of these wonders and the 1260 is 1260 days until Jesus shows up to end all of these wonders Daniel had seen or been shown. The 1290 happens 1290 days before Jesus shows up, 45 days after the Two-witnesses show up and 30 days before the Beast comes to power. So, Israel sees BEFORE the coming Wrath of God falls. That is why the Seals only OPEN God's Wrath, they are not God's Wrath, and why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8, the 7 Trumps indeed contain all of God's Wrath. Thus Rev. 7 is the 5 Million Jews (144,000 is a CODE) fleeing Judea.

AC reigns for the 2nd half of that week, 42 months. The fullness of the gentiles comes in during the 2nd half of that week as stated in Rev 7:9-14

The Anti-Christ is a politician way before the 2nbd half of the week, he gets Israel to sign an Agreement or Covenant (Israel joins the E.U. its that simple) and thus is the E.U. President for at least 7 years, but he indeed only rules as "The Beast" for 1260 days. I think that's what you mean. As per those in Rev. 7:9-16 those can ONLY BE the Pre 70th Week Raptured Church (or Pre Tribulation Church, which is a misnomer).

To me, "the fullness of the Gentiles coming in" during "the time of the great tribulation" seems pretty straightforward and contrary to your view.

The Fulness of SERVICE, no one gets Raptured during the 70th week. No one is in heaven now save maybe Enoch, Moses and Elijah. The living and dead according to 1 Cor. 15:42-52 all go to heaven at the exact same time, and our flesh and blood can not enter heaven, so we basically leave it behind. (We are CHANGED means we die, and our Spirit Man goes to heaven)

I agree that the Roman Empire will be reborn. However, it will have 10 kings. The EU has many more than 10 kings.

No, that is why so many people get confused, God use NUMBERS like the 10 Virgins as the COMPLETE Bride, He used 10 days of Tribulation in Rev. 2:10 but that means for the COMPLETE Church Age we will have tribulation, just as John 16:33 reminds us. The 10 Commandments are a stand in fir God's COMPLETE LAWS heck in just 2 all laws could be fulfilled Jesus said. The 10 plagues mean completion. So, while you are looking for 10, the E.U. when it was 12 or 17 or 27 with England, or 25 now, represents 10 at all time because 10 means COMPLETION and the number 7 Means divine Completion. The time is NOW Apophis will hit on April 13, 2029, that will be the Middle of the 70th week. So, the 70th week has to start by the fall of 2025,

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Beasts are world empires with power to kill anyone, 100%. There were 4. 1 - Babylon, 2 - Media-Persia, 3 - Greece, 4 - Rome

They are 7 via all the Beasts, counting Egypt, Assyria and the Anti-Christ, but Daniel was only shown 5, he was shown the Little Horn, and in Dan. 7:11 called him a Beast and stated the Beasts BODY will be destroyed and he will be cast inti hell. We know its 5 because of the interpretation by Gabriel on Dan. 7:23-25, it says HE (a Man) will be different from the FIRST (Rome).

And yet we can see it happening. Post Christians Europe. America is falling away. This is being fulfilled. When Christians no longer stand up against evil (the 5th seal), the last world empire will form.

No one stated the Church will nit get worse, many wont make the pre 70th week rapture, we know only 5 of the 10 virgins make the wedding call, which just so happens to be the exact same ratio given in Matt. 24:36-51 where it says ONE will be take and ONE will be left. You see, I know it states in many places how the world will get more evil (Rom. 1) and the church will bring in heresies etc. etc. etc. but that is not what 2 Thess. 2:1-3 means, its talking about the Departure of the Church, thus they have no reason to fear the are in the DOTL, because both the Church must DEAPART and the Anti-Christ must be on the scene, before the Wrath of God can fall.

The Seals DO NOTHING, those are merely Jesus Prophesying what the Trumpet Judgments will soon bring onto mankind down on earth when the 7th seal is finally taken off. Those Martyrs at the 5th Seal have not even died at the time Jesus takes off the Seal, he just knows their FUTURE THUGHTS in the grave, under the altar. No one who dies during the 70th week will be in heaven, Jesus says this as he's opening the 5th Seal, he tells them they MUST WAIT on vengeance until all of their Brothers have been killed as they have been killed, so the Beasts 42 month rule has to come to pass before they are raised and Judged AND Revelation 20:4 proves this 100 percent, they only get JUDGED after the 2nd coming.

The falling away?

The word is translated DEPARTURE in the first 7 English translation and in the Latin Vulgate Dicessio which means DEPARTURE. We are going to DEPART our standing on this earth when Jesus blows his trump.

Even as individuals in Christ, we can't be overcome. We can fall away. We can't lose our faith, but we can leave our faith as individuals and nations.

The true church can not depart from the faith, remember Jesus will say depart from me for I never knew you. But alas, the CONTEXT in 2 Thess. 2 is about the Church departing from this earth. Nothing can ever change that factoid.

Israel was betrothed to God at Mt. Sinai at the giving of the law. God came down for that! Lightnings, thunders, voices, and an earthquake - Ex 19. When do they spend their 7 days at the fathers house?

I haven't researched it, but the Father God has no Father. So, maybe you made a boo boo.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north (Seleucus)

No, this King of the North will be born in Greece, read Dan. 8:9 WHAT DIRECTIONS does he conquer in? TOWARDS the East (Turkey/Seleucus) TOWARDS the South (Egypt/Ptolemy) and TOWARDS Israel.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. (Only Egypt is conquered before AC turns back to the north.)

This is not correct, he has to come through Turkey (Dan. 8:9), Syria, Lebanon and Jordan to get at Israel, that is what this means BELOW: The END of vs. 40 and a smidge of vs. 41

and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown.

So, three King of the South, here its probably a coalition of Egypt and Turkey combined, but in order to get at Israel in vs. 41 the Beast has to ENTER into the countries [along the way[] AND OVERFLOW then and PASSOVER, to get at Israel in vs. 31. Many countries shall be conquered not just Israel, that is why Dan. 8:25 and Dan. 9:27 both speak about "THE MANY".

Dan 11:40-44 is also described by the 6th trumpet of Revelation.

No, the 6th Trump = 2nd Woe, and those Plagues are from God, read vs. 20 carefully. They are called Plagues. Satan can not kill Satan, its Angels who deliver the death to 1/3 of those who have taken the Mark of the Beast.

Ez 38-39 reveals the countries that alarm AC and cause him to turn north. The Libyans and Ethiopians join the northern countries against AC. However, AC get them all to join him to fight against Jesus. Rev 16:12-14

Ezekiel 38 & 39 is about Gog and Magog, nor Armageddon. That happens just before or just after the 70th week, but not 7 years later.

Finnish later, sleepy.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

We are at an impasse because you restate things which are not found in the Bible. The rapture by definition is the "catching up." The Bible does not say anyone is caught up in 1 Cor 15 even though you believe that they are. What more can be said?

SMH, so you can not understand 1 Cor. 15 is about the Rapture, this is just unbelievable.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption(Sin Flesh) inherit incorruption(Heaven, WHAT ELSE can not be CORRUPT !! Think man).

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(die and rest in the grave), but we shall all be changed,(Why CHANGED? Because SIN FLESH can not enter Heaven, THINK MAN) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpSo, ypu do nit understand the LAST TRUMP ends the Harvest? REALLY? See Rev. 4:1 Jesus calls John to COME UP and he sounds as a Trump)) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (From CORRUPT Flesh unto a Spirit Man which can then enter Heaven, that is the WHOLE POINT of vs. 50, which says flesh and blood can not enter heaven. Its like you just can not interpret scriptures at all brother, I do not get it tbh.

So, the Dead are RAISED without CORRUPTUION (Sin Flesh) and we are CHANGED to get rid of CORRUPTION (Sin Flesh) and you can not grasp why? Its because we are being taken to Heaven where SIN FLESH can not go !!

So, we are at an impasse because its hard for me to believe that any Christian can not see that 1 Cor. 15 is the Rapture. That is on you, not me, everyone in the world but a few select people understands this.

The Bible says that the change is the transformation of mortal bodies to immortal bodies no matter what you believe. I can't change your opinion on broader issues when we disagree about basic definitions.

No it does not, just the opposite, read vs. 50 (Flesh & Blood can not enter Heaven) on WHY the change is needed then vs. 44 on how the Dead are RAISED as Spirit Men. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Its you who seemingly can't register what Paul is saying here, not me. Add it all up, the Dead are raised INCCORUPTIBLE (with no Sin Flesh like the living still have) as Spirit Men. Then Paul says Flesh & Blood can not enter heaven, then says THE LIVING must be changed. And you do not get that means we have to get rid of this sin flesh in order to go to Heaven. Its obvious my friend.

I think believers will die during the time of Jesus reign on earth. What do you think happens to them?

Believers get transformed or changed from men living in flesh bodies unto Spirit Men who can go be with the Lord in Heaven where we marry the Lamb. So, when a person dies what happens in every day life? We leave our body behind. So, when we go to be with the Lord we will leave a lifeless carcass behind which means that no one just FLIES OFF, our spirit man does, but if there is one billion people who are raptured, then there will be one billion dead bodies on earth who all die at one time. Think now, do you see why the COVID 19 panic can be used by Satan to say SEE..........WE TOLD YOU SO, they will blame it on some Virus, Satan is planning ahead of time. Even though all of them will be Christians.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

All that are in the graves in no wise says ALL will be in the graves. One day all that are at the 2023 Super Bowl will have a certain virus (lets suppose they all caught a virus) doesn't mean everyone in the world would have THAT VIRUS. Come on man, that was too easy, even you didn't believe that.

John 11:24 "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Jews not in the Church indeed are raised when Jesus returns, Dan. 12:1-2 tells us that. But then again they are already married unto the Father.

Before Jesus rose, OT saints could not enter into heaven.

That is correct, and neither do people who die today.

The Jews who have the Fathers name on their foreheads will be raised at Jesus' 2nd coming, to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom Age, this includes the 5 Million who repent but are never killed, whom God protects for 1260 days in the wilderness. But those Jews in Christ, like the Gentiles, will be Raptured to Heaven in order to Marry the Lamb Jesus, in a Pre 70th week Rapture.

You biggest issue seems to be you can not separate what God is doing with Israel, and what He is doing with the Church, you conflate the two.

The 7th beast is not the final beast. That is why the Bible refers to an 8th beast.
Rev 17:10-11
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I agree that the one is, was Rome that would fall. The 7th head is over a Roman Empire. This is not AC! (First half of 70th week)
The 8th head, the Seleucus head will take power from Rome and rule the Roman Empire from Seleucia. (Second half of 70th week)

The 8th has no Kingdom on earth, he's just an 8th king. He is the Demon Apollyon, the Destroyer, who is now in the bottomless pit as their king.

So, he was given the Mediterranean Sea Region by Satan, thus Satan has a crown on all 7 Heads in Rev. 12 because he is over every kingdom in the world as Luke 4 shows us. In Rev. 13 the Anti-Christ/Beast has a crown on every Horn (all 10) because he is over Europe (the E.U.) and he's a Beast because he conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region in full. But the 8th is a king of the pit, he was over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, (in Dan. 10 he the Demon that fought against Michael and Gabriel for 21 days), Greece and Rome, then God locked him in the bottomless pit for the duration of the Church Age. He will be loosed at the First Woe. Thus al 7 Kings that FALL will be Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Then as the Anti-Christ heads this 7 Headed Beast by conquering Israel, he also himself is killed by Jesus, thus all 7 die. The riddle about the 8th King being OF THE SEVEN should tell you he's a Demon !! Look again now at the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17, NOTICE, he has NO CROWNS, ever notice that? In Rev. 12 the Heads have SEVEN CROWNS in Rev. 13 the Horns have 10 CROWNS but in Rev. 17 neither the Heads nor Horns have any CROWNS, that is because Apollyon can not be over Satan on this earth, and hes not a human being, thus his lone kingdom is the Bottomless Pit. He s an 8th, ad is of the 7, but he has no kingdom on this earth. So, you totally get that wrong my friend., but alas most people do not understand that tbh.

Did you read Dan 2?

I read all prophecy, everywhere a word is mentioned does not make it apply in the same way. CONTEXT.

Was Jesus in heaven when he was a man on earth?

We are seeing Jesus in every chapter past Rev. 4 during the 70th week HEREAFTER. Period.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Was Jesus in heaven when he was a man on earth?

"What Saith The Scriptures?":

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down​

from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven." (John 3:13)​

Amen.

 

[ewq1938]

SMH, so you can not understand 1 Cor. 15 is about the Rapture, this is just unbelievable.

The rapture isn't even mentioned there. It's all about the resurrection and the path to immortality. The rapture which is moving people from one place to another is not mentioned one time there. Paul addresses it in another book using HARPAZO which is the Greek word for rapture.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The rapture isn't even mentioned there. It's all about the resurrection and the path to immortality. The rapture which is moving people from one place to another is not mentioned one time there. Paul addresses it in another book using HARPAZO which is the Greek word for rapture.

The dead in Christ are raised, and those who are alive are CHANGED........which means we DIE..........because no sin flesh can ENTER HEAVEN. You have to be able to interpret scriptures brother.

 

[ewq1938]

The dead in Christ are raised, and those who are alive are CHANGED........which means we DIE

No, there is no death for those who are changed then raptured. It says "we shall not all sleep" which means not die.

..........because no sin flesh can ENTER HEAVEN. You have to be able to interpret scriptures brother.

This is not even from the bible.