7 Common Errors of Interpretation for Chapters 4-6 of Revelation

[Ronald D Milam]

No, there is no death for those who are changed then raptured. It says "we shall not all sleep" which means not die.

Yes, we never SLEEP in the grave because we are taken straight to heaven as Spirit men, our body back on earth will be left on earth, thus it will have no life. Call it what you will.

This is not even from the bible.

Yes it is, you just can not understand the bible as its written.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, we never SLEEP in the grave because we are taken straight to heaven as Spirit men,

It says no sleep not no sleep in a grave.

Yes it is,

No, the bible never says flesh cannot enter heaven.

you just can not understand the bible as its written.

lol...you are the one quoting things you claim are from the bible but they aren't yet somehow I don't understand the bible? I know the bible well enough to know when someone is not quoting it. The bible says the raptured do not die, but you say they do die. YOU are the one who doesn't understand the bible sir.

 

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Yes, His Kingdom is not visible. That's the Kingdom of His dear Son. That's the Kingdom that I'm in.

You're free to wait for your millennial kingdom.

I'm completely satisfied with the Kingdom of His dear Son that I'm in.

You are right to rejoice that you are in the Kingdom of God and that you do not belong to the kingdom of this world.

John 17:14-16
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

In this world you will have tribulation.
John 16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Although Jesus has sent his Holy Spirit to those who believe, better times will come to this world when Jesus returns to it. Acts 2:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

[6 Stories]

It says "voice of the angel". The voice is going through the trumpet.




No, because there is no trump there. It's also LONG before any of the last trumps sound, real trumpets not things as loud as a trumpet which isn't a trumpet at all.



1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other passage makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which end times trumpet Christ returns in:

There will be a camp of living saints on earth when the millennial reign of Jesus has ended.

Rev 20:6-9
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The dead in Christ are raised and this camp is changed at the end of Jesus' millennial reign. They are not devoured in God's fire.
1 Cor 15:25 " For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."
Jesus gains victory over death at the end of the millennium by making all that belong to him immortal. This is the time of the last trump in 1 Cor 15:52. This is why there is a change, but no rapture.

When the fire comes down from God, the enemies of God will all die and go to hell. Those in hell will then appear for judgment. This is when death and hell are destroyed.
1 Cor 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Rev 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here we have the end of the Tribulation, and the sounding of the last of the 7 trumps. Though not explicitly mentioned here, I think the language does highly imply Christ's second coming is at this time. The second coming is directly tied to the time for wrath:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


We see this wrath in greater detail here:


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So, the "last trump" is the same as the last of the 7 trumpets of Revelation and it is when Christ returns, the dead in Christ rise and the rapture all take place.

I agree with you that the wrath that takes place in Rev 6, 11, and 19 describe the same events. However, these events occur at the front end of the millennium. The dead are raised from the grave and together with those who are alive and are made immortal at the trump or voice of God both at the beginning and ending of the millennium. The beginning is the trump of God in 1 Thes. The ending is the last trump of God in 1 Cor.

The trump of God in 1 Thes does occur during the time that the 7th angel blows his trumpet.

 

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We must stick with what God's Word says about these events, especially when speculating. The battle that happens when Jesus returns on the last day is when Satan's armies will be defeated (i.e, on the 7th trumpet, 7th vial). The war on the saints Satan will do during the time of "great tribulation" which is PRIOR to Christ's day of return. Recall per Rev.13:4-8 the "dragon" (Satan) will be given power over all nations and peoples at the end for 42 months (latter 1260 day period which is when the time of "great tribulation" will be).

I agree with this. The period of great tribulation ends before the period of God's wrath begins. Satan is still around, but loses world dominion at the end of the great tribulation.

I did not mean 'after' the "great tribulation", but towards its end of it. Recall the 10 days of trial Jesus said the Church of Smyrna will have, and to remain faithful even unto death. That is symbolically linked to the time of Daniel when he was to remain in care for 3 years, and then be delivered up after the 3 years to king Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 1:5). Neb made a gold idol image and passed a decree for everyone to bow to it in worship at the sound of the psalter, or be delivered up and killed. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nigo being delivered up for not bowing symbolically points to the events towards the end of the great tribulation, because their cast into the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, with Neb seeing a Fourth Man with the appearance of The Son of God in that furnace with them, and their coming out of that furnace with no harm, not even their clothes smelled of smoke, represents the day of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints. That fiery furnace represents God's 'consuming fire' that is to happen on the last day of this world, the "day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10). And Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:11 revealed about Old Testament events as types of "ensamples" for us, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

I think you are reading too much into this. The day of Christ's coming is at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. The last day of the world is after the millennial kingdom has ended. 2 Peter 3:10 corresponds with Rev 20:9-11.

That's right, and Daniel and his fellows being delivered up didn't happen until after... Neb had that gold idol setup in false worship. What is foretold for the idol at the end of this world, per the Book of Daniel and where Jesus quoted from Daniel about the end? Jesus quoted from Daniel 11:31 about the placing of an IDOL in the temple at Jerusalem for the end of this world, during the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:15-31). Per Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 we are shown old covenant worship will be going on for the "great tribulation" time, because those Daniel verses point to the coming Antichrist ending the daily sacrifices, and placing that idol in a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem. That is what will kick off the start of "great tribulation".

I agree with this, but I would not describe it as the end of this world.

Your statement assumes that the future time of "great tribulation" is going to be like world war 3, or a time of great massacres of God's people. Not necessarily.

Luke 21:12-19
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
KJV

Jesus showed some of us will be put to death for refusing to bow to the future "image of the beast", or reject his mark. But for others, not one hair on our head shall perish, suggesting His return will happen prior to those being executed. Furthermore, it will be only... those who stand in Christ during that time that reject bowing to that idol image or taking the mark, that Satan will come after. Satan won't be concerned with the 'deceived' in Christ's Church. So the preachers who push ideas of indiscriminate killing for the time of "great tribulation" need to study deeper. And the preachers on the false pre-trib rapture theory push those indiscriminate killing ideas for the 'left-behind' to try and scare brethren into accepting their false pre-trib rapture theories. Hal Lindsay's books and Time LaHaye's books and movies are especially written for that purpose. But they are not following the Word of God on the matter. Jesus showed that the tribulation will be time when all wars and rumors of wars have stopped, and that means a time of world peace under the coming false-Messiah. This is why Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.5 that when 'they' (the deceived), say "Peace and safety", that is when the "sudden destruction" (last day) will come upon 'them' (the deceived). In Daniel 8, we are shown the 'king of fierce countenance' at the END will destroy many using 'peace'. Putting all that together means we have to re-consider how Lord Jesus meant Matthew 24:22.

Some of God's people will not die during the great tribulation as you have stated. I do not agree with pre-trib because once you see that 6 stories of Revelation come to the same end, you are not able to unsee it!
The Peace and Safety describes the formation of a new Roman Empire, a 10 nation peace treaty that Israel will enter. This is the start of Daniel's 70th week. After 3.5 years, AC will take over this Roman Empire from the area of Seleucia. The GT is the time of AC's reign, the time if allowed to continue, everyone on earth would have died. Fortunately, God intervenes by raising the 2 witnesses, ending the GT.

 

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The "new song" and the "song of Moses" are sung AFTER... Christ's future return by His elect, not before. This is why they are shown singing the new song in Rev.14 "before the throne", and in Rev.15 the song of Moses standing on the sea of glass after having gotten victory over the beast.

Isn't the throne in heaven along with the sea of glass? This is before Jesus comes to earth.
Rev 14:1-5 occurs before Jesus comes to earth in Rev 14:14.
Rev 15:2-3 occurs before Jesus comes to earth in Rev 16:21

You are not agreeing with what I showed. The following verses are PRIOR to the end of the "great tribulation". Instead, the following verses are about the START of the time of "great tribulation"...

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

Ever heard of the phrase 'smoke and mirrors'? That's what Satan's mimic of Christ coming will be, with a FAKE earthquake, just not the one that will happen when Jesus comes. How can we know this?

It is because of those phrases in red in the next verse. Who was it that fell from Heaven like a star? Who were the 'stars' that the "red dragon" of Rev.12:3-4 drew to earth with him in rebellion against God? That is about Satan and his angels. But why... would that be shown within the 6th Seal timing? It's because that is when Satan comes as the Antichrist at the end of this world for the tribulation time. That means these two verses on the 6th Seal are "great tribulation" timing. The verses after the above are about the last day when Jesus returns. But here, these Rev.6:12-13 verses is trib timing.

Matt 24:29 " Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

This means that everything after the great earthquake in Rev 6:12 are not GT timing. The great earthquake of Rev 6:12 ends the GT. The 2 witnesses are around for 42 months of GT until they are raised into heaven at the time of this great earthquake in Rev 11:13.

That phrase "as a fig tree casteth her UNTIMELY FIGS" I also explained, as it is about real horticultural of the fig. It represents the 'winter fig' that grows in the winter, but falls off in the spring. But when is the time of symbolic harvest that Jesus used for gathering of His saints? Jesus said SUMMER. So don't you see this contrast between a WINTER vs SUMMER gathering? The untimely figs represents falling away to the false-Messiah that comes first during the "great tribulation". It's that simple.

The falling away is what allows the rise of the false Messiah. 2 Thes 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Saints have kept the AC from taking world authority for 2000 years. We are now in the time of falling away. Post Christian Europe and a falling away in America will allow for the rise of the AC.

The way I explain it is that on the "day of the Lord", the last day of this present world, and the day when Jesus returns, the Heavenly dimension will no longer be hidden and invisible. This is who those at the end of the 6th Seal will 'see' The Father sitting upon His throne in Heaven, and wish to hide from Him and from Jesus' coming. That will happen because on that day, the "last trump" like Paul said will occur at the 'twinkling of an eye', all still alive on earth will be 'changed' to their spirit body, casting off the flesh. At that time, the Heavenly dimension will be joined with the earthly dimension, as it was before Adam's fall and God walked in the Paradise on earth, per Gen.2. At the end of Gen.3 is when He moved His Abode, separating His Heavenly dimension from this earthly one.

It would appear that only Jesus stays on earth during the length of the millennium. 1 Cor 15:22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

If the Father was still on earth in verse 24, he wouldn't deliver up to God the kingdom on earth.

The Rev.12:1-5 verses are a short summary from the beginning all the way to the future time of Christ's reign with the "rod of iron". So you have to remember about the time of Satan's original rebellion against God in that old world, which caused his fall, and that he drew those 1/3 of angels to earth in rebellion with him. That happened in the old world, prior... to the time of Adam and Eve. And that is what the following parts in 'red' are about...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

In the world prior to Adam and Eve, Satan (then called Lucifer), had been exalted by God, and ruled over a kingdom of nations back then in that old world. This is not often taught in the Church, but there's plenty enough Scripture where God points to it, but in parable form. It is what the Ezekiel 28 and Ezekiel 31 Scripture is about, also Isaiah 14. And here Jesus reveals that Lucifer's original rebellion involved a 3rd of the angels going into rebellion with him, and... with a beast system on earth that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns (note in Rev.13:1 the final beast kingdom for the end of this world is to have ten crowns).

Then the last phrase is what you are referring to, "and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for the devour her child as soon as it was born", and is actually about Abel, representing the Seed of the Woman that Christ would be born through. And truly, it is covering the whole Seed line of the symbolic Woman from Abel to Christ Who is to rule in final with the "rod of iron".

6 past heads: 1, Babylon, 2, Media-Persia, 3, Greece, 4, Ptolemy (King of the South), 5, Seleucia (King of the North), 6, Rome
1 future head 7, new Rome and an 8th, Seleucia will come to rule over new Rome.
The crowns were upon its heads means that at Jesus' birth, #6 Rome was in charge. The crowns move to the 10 horns when #7 Rome is in charge. These will be the 10 nations that will form the new Roman Empire. This is the equivalent of the Dan 2 statue dream where the 10 toes are the 10 horns. Both dreams do show Satan is in charge of all of these kingdoms.

Lord Jesus gave us the last THREE TRUMPETS to concentrate on with the signs of the end leading up to His return. Each one of those last 3 trumpets contain a Woe with them.

5th Trumpet (Rev.8:13 to Rev.9:12) - 1st Woe period = preparation time by Satan's host on earth towards deception. God's servants 'sealed' in prep for the "five months" stinging (deception). This is linked with the Joel prophecy about the locust army that God showed He sends for the end of this world. The locusts represent power given to Satan's workers here on earth for takeover of all nations and peoples in prep for the time of "great tribulation".

6th Trumpet - (Rev.9:12 to Rev.11:14) - 2nd Woe period = the actually time of "great tribulation". Rev.9:12 forward reveals the time that is prepared for an hour, a day, a month, and a year, happens with the four angels at the river Euphrates are loosed. The river Euphrates was the most northern border that God promised the Israelites. In Rev.9 it represent a 'spiritual' border at the end between God's people and Satan and his host on earth. The Rev.12:7-9 events of the war in Heaven, and no more place then found for Satan, is for the end of this world, for the time of "great tribulation" especially. Satan and his angels are coming, like Jesus said in the Book of John. And that means into OUR earthly dimension, with the image of man, for God created the angels with His outward image of man also. This is who the coming Antichrist, false-Messiah, will be, Satan de facto coming to play God, on earth, with the power of great signs and wonders and miracles. If you are still here to see it in the future, then I hope you remember this.

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period continues all the way through to Rev.11:14, which is just prior to the last day when Lord Jesus returns. When the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying unburied in the street of Jerusalem suddenly arise after 3.5 days, the 7th trumpet will then quickly sound Jesus' coming.

I am in basic agreement with the 3 woes.

 

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The Rev.7 Scripture does not actually say if they died. It says they "...came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

That could simply mean they 'waited' for Jesus' coming all throughout the great tribulation, and were gathered by Christ from the earth on His return per 1 Thess.4:17, and Mark 13:27. Refusing to bow to the "image of the beast", and not taking his mark, and thus suffering persecution at the end for that, can be that idea of having washed their robes in Christ. That certainly would be enough, even if they were not killed.

These people are before the throne, before the throne has come to earth. Therefore, they died.

The order of events concerning God coming to earth is always God the Father and then God the Son. In the story that goes from Rev 7:1 - 8:5, God the Father doesn't come to earth as revealed by the earthquake until Rev 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake." This symbolism which shows that the throne of God has left heaven and has come to earth always occurs before the coming of Jesus and the pouring out of his wrath. Picture the dead coming out of their graves at the earthquake of God the Father. Then the dead and the living are changed and caught up into the clouds with Jesus. Then Jesus pours out his wrath in the form of hail.

Rev 6:16 "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne (Father), and from the wrath of the Lamb (Son):"

Rev 11:19 "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake (Father), and great hail. (Son)"

Rev 16:18-21
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake (Father), such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Son)

I cannot agree with that last speculation. ALL those that died in Christ Jesus represent the 'firstfruits' of the resurrection, and even include those in Christ still alive on the day of His coming. Reason I say that is because the "first resurrection" of Rev.20 represents the 1st of at least one more LIKE it. If there was to be no 2nd resurrection unto Christ then that ordinal number "first" would not have been used. There will be another, at the Great White Throne Judgment. That is when the book of life is looked at to see if any names are written in it. That cannot apply to Christ's elect of the "first resurrection", since we are told in the start of Rev.20 that they are not subject to the "second death", so no need to see if their names are written again.

Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His very elect of the "first resurrection" is for this very purpose, to teach to the unsaved nations The Gospel, which for many in that time, it will be their first... time to actually hear The Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am convinced that the majority of the unsaved nations will convert to Jesus Christ in that time, and their names will be found in the book of life at the GWT Judgment.

Therefore, I see those of the "first resurrection" representing Christ's firstfruits after His resurrection (those who came out of their graves after His resurrection included).

The second or last resurrection comes at the time of the 2nd or last trump of God. This will be at the end of Jesus' 1000-year reign on earth. Note how a rapture is not immediately associated with the 2nd/last resurrection.

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1st resurrection, start of millennium)
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (2nd resurrection, end of millennium)
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (This is when those of the 2nd resurrection, camp of the saints is delivered up/raptured.)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (2nd resurrection, end of millennium)
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (Death is under Jesus feet 1 Cor 15:25, but not yet destroyed 1 Cor 15:26, Rev 20:14)

Rev 20:7-14
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

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John is telling us that 2 billion humans will be harvested from the earth during the Seals. Then 2 billion more during the Trumpets. Then keeping on track, 2 billion during the Thunders. That is 6 billion. The church alive and remain makes up another 2 billion.

The point is that it is God doing the harvesting, not Satan nor any AC. People who die from external conflict outside of the harvest itself is simply normal everyday life.

The rapture of the church is the first harvest of the Second Coming. The church is not what is left over at the end, and then caught up.

According to what you state, Jesus first harvest of the Second Coming is 2 billion during the seals.
According to what you state, Jesus first harvest of the Second Coming is 2 billion during the trumpets.
According to what you state, Jesus first harvest of the Second Coming is 2 billion during the thunders.
How does that make sense? That is 3 separate harvests. Does Jesus come 3 times?

The harvest of the Godly is the raising of the dead out of their graves, the changing of the dead and the living to immortal beings, and the rapture of these immortal beings. The only Godly harvest reference in the Revelation is in Rev 14:14-16
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

[6 Stories]

This is not true, Zech. 13:8-9 tells us Israel repents just before the Day of the Lord (1260 middle of the week). Since God requires FAITH ALONE in order to make heaven, if Jesus just showed up and saved a FAITHLESS Israel, that makes God a liar, He could have saved a faithless Israel in 33 AD or 70 AD.

In the end of Matt. 23 Jesus prophesies that the next time they will see him they will be saying Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. So, they do not get saved when Jesus shows up. That just not very good eschatology brother.

Zech. 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

So, 1/3 or 5 million Jews REPENT..........THEN God's Wrath falls in the very next verse !!

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The above is the 1260 Event of Dan. 12:7, Israel's power is scattered, those 1/3 who repent Flee Judea, the 2/3 will die. THEN.............Jesus shows up 1260 days later.........BELOW:

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Jesus does not come right at the end of the 70th week! The raising of the 2 witnesses into heaven is the sign of Jesus and that occurs at the end of the 70th week. This is God's intervention that ends the GT. People will turn to Jesus and not fear death or antichrist when they see the resurrection and ascension of the 2 witnesses.

Israel repents at the 1335 (Two-witnesses, then the AoD happens at the 1290, which is 45 days after the 1335 and 30 days before the 1260 middle of the week. This gives the Jews who repented 30 days to flee Judea. How do they know to flee? They do not read Matt. 24 !! They repent via Elijah (and Moses imho beaus of the transfiguration) just as Malachi 4:5 says. Elijah will be sent back BEFORE the DOTL. It all meshes and fits because its truth brother. Even the Two-witnesses dying at the 2nd Woe and the Beast dying at the 7th Vial, PROVES............they must show up before the Beast come to power, because both have 1260 day ordained by God timelines on this earth. The Two-witnesses to witness for 1260 days and the Beast to dominate Israel for 1260 days. So, since the Two-witnesses die first they have to show up first. Hence the 1335 is 1335 days until Jesus shows up to end all of these wonders and the 1260 is 1260 days until Jesus shows up to end all of these wonders Daniel had seen or been shown. The 1290 happens 1290 days before Jesus shows up, 45 days after the Two-witnesses show up and 30 days before the Beast comes to power. So, Israel sees BEFORE the coming Wrath of God falls. That is why the Seals only OPEN God's Wrath, they are not God's Wrath, and why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8, the 7 Trumps indeed contain all of God's Wrath. Thus Rev. 7 is the 5 Million Jews (144,000 is a CODE) fleeing Judea.

/--------------------------------------------------70th week--------Great Tribulation------------------/--God's Wrath---/--Millennium--/
Day 1 Day 1260 Day 2520
Day 1 Day 1260 Day 1335
There are 2 separate timelines that are being confused.
Daniel's 70th week is the final 7 years of punishment upon Israel. The 1st half of the 70th week results from a 10-nation peace treaty making a new Roman Empire. The 2nd half of the 70th week is the GT when AC takes over the new Roman Empire.
In the middle of the 70th week, sacrifice will cease and the abomination of desolation will be set up. This is day 1260 of the 70th week, but it is day 1 of the GT. This is the day Israel flees.
AC reigns during the 2nd half of the 70th week.
The 2 witnesses/Elijah and Moses/the 144,000, witness during the 2nd half of the 70th week.
I'm not sure what happens on day 1290 of the 2nd timeline. My best guess is the destruction of the world capital or Babylon.
From the end of the 70th week until day 1335 is the time of God's wrath. It is likely that Jesus will return 75 days after the 70th week.

The Anti-Christ is a politician way before the 2nbd half of the week, he gets Israel to sign an Agreement or Covenant (Israel joins the E.U. its that simple) and thus is the E.U. President for at least 7 years, but he indeed only rules as "The Beast" for 1260 days. I think that's what you mean. As per those in Rev. 7:9-16 those can ONLY BE the Pre 70th Week Raptured Church (or Pre Tribulation Church, which is a misnomer).

I agree AC is a politician and part of the 10 nations that will form a new Roman Empire. He will originally reign just in Seleucia (Syria and part of Iraq to the Euphrates River). I am looking at the Quint as 1 foot - US, UK, France, Germany, and Italy. The other foot will likely have Seleucia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, plus 1 other. Seleucia will take power from Rome for the last 1260 days.

Those in Rev 7:9-16 come out of the GT so they can't be pre-trib. They have to be in the GT before they can come out of the GT.

The Fulness of SERVICE, no one gets Raptured during the 70th week. No one is in heaven now save maybe Enoch, Moses and Elijah. The living and dead according to 1 Cor. 15:42-52 all go to heaven at the exact same time, and our flesh and blood can not enter heaven, so we basically leave it behind. (We are CHANGED means we die, and our Spirit Man goes to heaven)

Our spirit man has gone to heaven since Jesus' blood was shed in heaven. It was this sacrifice that fulfilled the law and enabled us to enter heaven. While our spirit man has been going to heaven for 2000 years, all of our bodies will go into the clouds at the exact same time. The CHANGE is from mortal to immortal for the dead body and for those who are alive at Jesus' coming.

No, that is why so many people get confused, God use NUMBERS like the 10 Virgins as the COMPLETE Bride, He used 10 days of Tribulation in Rev. 2:10 but that means for the COMPLETE Church Age we will have tribulation, just as John 16:33 reminds us. The 10 Commandments are a stand in fir God's COMPLETE LAWS heck in just 2 all laws could be fulfilled Jesus said. The 10 plagues mean completion. So, while you are looking for 10, the E.U. when it was 12 or 17 or 27 with England, or 25 now, represents 10 at all time because 10 means COMPLETION and the number 7 Means divine Completion. The time is NOW Apophis will hit on April 13, 2029, that will be the Middle of the 70th week. So, the 70th week has to start by the fall of 2025,

I will keep looking for 10 nations, but we won't have to wait long according to your calculations!

 

[6 Stories]

They are 7 via all the Beasts, counting Egypt, Assyria and the Anti-Christ, but Daniel was only shown 5, he was shown the Little Horn, and in Dan. 7:11 called him a Beast and stated the Beasts BODY will be destroyed and he will be cast inti hell. We know its 5 because of the interpretation by Gabriel on Dan. 7:23-25, it says HE (a Man) will be different from the FIRST (Rome).


No one stated the Church will nit get worse, many wont make the pre 70th week rapture, we know only 5 of the 10 virgins make the wedding call, which just so happens to be the exact same ratio given in Matt. 24:36-51 where it says ONE will be take and ONE will be left. You see, I know it states in many places how the world will get more evil (Rom. 1) and the church will bring in heresies etc. etc. etc. but that is not what 2 Thess. 2:1-3 means, its talking about the Departure of the Church, thus they have no reason to fear the are in the DOTL, because both the Church must DEAPART and the Anti-Christ must be on the scene, before the Wrath of God can fall.

The Seals DO NOTHING, those are merely Jesus Prophesying what the Trumpet Judgments will soon bring onto mankind down on earth when the 7th seal is finally taken off. Those Martyrs at the 5th Seal have not even died at the time Jesus takes off the Seal, he just knows their FUTURE THUGHTS in the grave, under the altar. No one who dies during the 70th week will be in heaven, Jesus says this as he's opening the 5th Seal, he tells them they MUST WAIT on vengeance until all of their Brothers have been killed as they have been killed, so the Beasts 42 month rule has to come to pass before they are raised and Judged AND Revelation 20:4 proves this 100 percent, they only get JUDGED after the 2nd coming.


The word is translated DEPARTURE in the first 7 English translation and in the Latin Vulgate Dicessio which means DEPARTURE. We are going to DEPART our standing on this earth when Jesus blows his trump.


The true church can not depart from the faith, remember Jesus will say depart from me for I never knew you. But alas, the CONTEXT in 2 Thess. 2 is about the Church departing from this earth. Nothing can ever change that factoid.


I haven't researched it, but the Father God has no Father. So, maybe you made a boo boo.


No, this King of the North will be born in Greece, read Dan. 8:9 WHAT DIRECTIONS does he conquer in? TOWARDS the East (Turkey/Seleucus) TOWARDS the South (Egypt/Ptolemy) and TOWARDS Israel.


This is not correct, he has to come through Turkey (Dan. 8:9), Syria, Lebanon and Jordan to get at Israel, that is what this means BELOW: The END of vs. 40 and a smidge of vs. 41

and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown.

So, three King of the South, here its probably a coalition of Egypt and Turkey combined, but in order to get at Israel in vs. 41 the Beast has to ENTER into the countries [along the way[] AND OVERFLOW then and PASSOVER, to get at Israel in vs. 31. Many countries shall be conquered not just Israel, that is why Dan. 8:25 and Dan. 9:27 both speak about "THE MANY".


No, the 6th Trump = 2nd Woe, and those Plagues are from God, read vs. 20 carefully. They are called Plagues. Satan can not kill Satan, its Angels who deliver the death to 1/3 of those who have taken the Mark of the Beast.

Woe comes to the earth in the form of trumpets 5,6, and 7 because Satan has been cast to earth.
Rev 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"
Rev 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Ezekiel 38 & 39 is about Gog and Magog, nor Armageddon. That happens just before or just after the 70th week, but not 7 years later.

Finnish later, sleepy.

 

[6 Stories]

SMH, so you can not understand 1 Cor. 15 is about the Rapture, this is just unbelievable.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption(Sin Flesh) inherit incorruption(Heaven, WHAT ELSE can not be CORRUPT !! Think man).

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(die and rest in the grave), but we shall all be changed,(Why CHANGED? Because SIN FLESH can not enter Heaven, THINK MAN) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpSo, ypu do nit understand the LAST TRUMP ends the Harvest? REALLY? See Rev. 4:1 Jesus calls John to COME UP and he sounds as a Trump)) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (From CORRUPT Flesh unto a Spirit Man which can then enter Heaven, that is the WHOLE POINT of vs. 50, which says flesh and blood can not enter heaven. Its like you just can not interpret scriptures at all brother, I do not get it tbh.

So, the Dead are RAISED without CORRUPTUION (Sin Flesh) and we are CHANGED to get rid of CORRUPTION (Sin Flesh) and you can not grasp why? Its because we are being taken to Heaven where SIN FLESH can not go !!

So, we are at an impasse because its hard for me to believe that any Christian can not see that 1 Cor. 15 is the Rapture. That is on you, not me, everyone in the world but a few select people understands this.

The timing here is the last trump which is different from the trump in 1 Thes.
Trump in 1 Thes is followed by the millennium, which is followed by the last trump. No rapture at the last trump. See post 207 for the full explanation.

No it does not, just the opposite, read vs. 50 (Flesh & Blood can not enter Heaven) on WHY the change is needed then vs. 44 on how the Dead are RAISED as Spirit Men. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Its you who seemingly can't register what Paul is saying here, not me. Add it all up, the Dead are raised INCCORUPTIBLE (with no Sin Flesh like the living still have) as Spirit Men. Then Paul says Flesh & Blood can not enter heaven, then says THE LIVING must be changed. And you do not get that means we have to get rid of this sin flesh in order to go to Heaven. Its obvious my friend.


Believers get transformed or changed from men living in flesh bodies unto Spirit Men who can go be with the Lord in Heaven where we marry the Lamb. So, when a person dies what happens in every day life? We leave our body behind. So, when we go to be with the Lord we will leave a lifeless carcass behind which means that no one just FLIES OFF, our spirit man does, but if there is one billion people who are raptured, then there will be one billion dead bodies on earth who all die at one time. Think now, do you see why the COVID 19 panic can be used by Satan to say SEE..........WE TOLD YOU SO, they will blame it on some Virus, Satan is planning ahead of time. Even though all of them will be Christians.


All that are in the graves in no wise says ALL will be in the graves. One day all that are at the 2023 Super Bowl will have a certain virus (lets suppose they all caught a virus) doesn't mean everyone in the world would have THAT VIRUS. Come on man, that was too easy, even you didn't believe that.

All of the dead will be in their graves. That's where we put dead people.

Jews not in the Church indeed are raised when Jesus returns, Dan. 12:1-2 tells us that. But then again they are already married unto the Father.


That is correct, and neither do people who die today.

The Jews who have the Fathers name on their foreheads will be raised at Jesus' 2nd coming, to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom Age, this includes the 5 Million who repent but are never killed, whom God protects for 1260 days in the wilderness. But those Jews in Christ, like the Gentiles, will be Raptured to Heaven in order to Marry the Lamb Jesus, in a Pre 70th week Rapture.

You biggest issue seems to be you can not separate what God is doing with Israel, and what He is doing with the Church, you conflate the two..

The 8th has no Kingdom on earth, he's just an 8th king. He is the Demon Apollyon, the Destroyer, who is now in the bottomless pit as their king.

So, he was given the Mediterranean Sea Region by Satan, thus Satan has a crown on all 7 Heads in Rev. 12 because he is over every kingdom in the world as Luke 4 shows us. In Rev. 13 the Anti-Christ/Beast has a crown on every Horn (all 10) because he is over Europe (the E.U.) and he's a Beast because he conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region in full. But the 8th is a king of the pit, he was over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, (in Dan. 10 he the Demon that fought against Michael and Gabriel for 21 days), Greece and Rome, then God locked him in the bottomless pit for the duration of the Church Age. He will be loosed at the First Woe. Thus al 7 Kings that FALL will be Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Then as the Anti-Christ heads this 7 Headed Beast by conquering Israel, he also himself is killed by Jesus, thus all 7 die. The riddle about the 8th King being OF THE SEVEN should tell you he's a Demon !! Look again now at the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17, NOTICE, he has NO CROWNS, ever notice that? In Rev. 12 the Heads have SEVEN CROWNS in Rev. 13 the Horns have 10 CROWNS but in Rev. 17 neither the Heads nor Horns have any CROWNS, that is because Apollyon can not be over Satan on this earth, and hes not a human being, thus his lone kingdom is the Bottomless Pit. He s an 8th, ad is of the 7, but he has no kingdom on this earth. So, you totally get that wrong my friend., but alas most people do not understand that tbh.


I read all prophecy, everywhere a word is mentioned does not make it apply in the same way. CONTEXT.


We are seeing Jesus in every chapter past Rev. 4 during the 70th week HEREAFTER. Period.

Try to understand my chart of the 6 stories. Once you see it, you won't be able to unsee it.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Jesus does not come right at the end of the 70th week! The raising of the 2 witnesses into heaven is the sign of Jesus and that occurs at the end of the 70th week. This is God's intervention that ends the GT. People will turn to Jesus and not fear death or antichrist when they see the resurrection and ascension of the 2 witnesses.

Not so, the end when Jesus returns is Rev. 16:19, Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Chapter, see it speaks about Woe #2? Well, that happens in Rev. 9 right? You get the DETAILS in Rev. 9 and with the 3rd Woe, which comes via the 7th Trump, we get those DETAILS in Rev. 16.

Revelation 8, 9 and 16 (15&16 is really one chapter, see Rev. 8, the Angels READY the Trumps to sound in the first few verses THEN start blowing, in Rev. 15 the Angels READY the Vials to be poured out, then that happens in Rev. 16, thus they really should be one chapter, men added in the chapters and verses)

Thus you confuse Rev. 11 with ending the 70th week events, when its really just the 1260 day Ministry of the Two-witnesses and we are told the 7th Trump sounds and that will give the Kingdoms of the earth back unto God, BUT...........that just foretells what the 7th Trump which the Two-witnesses prayed down will eventually bring, VICTORY, but only when the 7 Vials have been poured out. Thus they show up 1335 days before the 2nd Coming, and die 75 days before the 2nd coming. They show up 75 days before the A.C. conquers Israel to become The Beast, and thus they also die 75 days before he does. This is the ONLY REASON God gave them both 1260 day ordained by God timelines on this earth via "their duties" so to speak. They have to show up before the Beast, else how would Israel (the 1/3 who repent) know they needed to flee Judea unto safety in the Petra/Bozrah area? So, when the see the 1290 AoD, which is not the Beast but his False Prophet sidekick, they will know to flee Judea.

You have to step back brother and look at this from 20,000 feet. God demands all men come unto Him by faith alone. God sends the Two-witnesses back BEFORE the DOTL (see Malachi 4:5 it says so). They get Israel to repent that is the only reason the flee Judea at the 1290. Then 30 days later the Beast conquers Israel, QUESTION: If the A.C./Beast was the one taking away the Sacrifice (forbidding Jesus worship) and placing the AoD (Image) then why would he allow the Jews to flee Judea? Makes no no sense brother. Now, go read Rev. 13, who gets THE PEOPLE to place THE IMAGE? It says the 2nd Beast (F.P.) does. You have your whole timeline twisted. The book of Revelation is not in Chronological Order.

/--------------------------------------------------70th week--------Great Tribulation------------------/--God's Wrath---/--Millennium--/
Day 1 Day 1260 Day 2520
Day 1 Day 1260 Day 1335

No, the FULCRUM POINT is the 2nd Coming that ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS watch this.

Day 1......................Day 1185 is 1335 days away from Jesus' 2nd Coming...................................2nd Coming 2520

2520 - 1185 =1335

Day 1............................day 1230 is 1290 days away from the 2nd Coming...................................2nd Coming 2520

2520 - 1230 = 1290

Day 1.......................................day 1260 is 1260 days away from the 2nd Coming.........................2nd coming 2520

2520 - 1260 = 1260

You are not getting Gods riddle, do not feel bad, no o e got it for 2500 years. All three numbers are EVENTS, and we then have to figure out what the said events are. Its easy to understand the 1260, its the same number both ways and we see Israel's power is scattered for 1260 days and then we know that ALL OF THESE (Dan. 11:36-45) WONDERS will end !! We living now know what ends all these wonders is Jesus Christs 2nd coming. Yet..........when Daniel asks the exact same question in vs. 8 as the angel did in vs. 6 we for some reason have a brain lapse, we do not understand that the 1290 AoD is 1290 days away from when ALL THESE THINGS end. Also the 1335 Blessing is 1335 days from when ALL THESE THINGS end.

Thus the 1335 blessing comes first(Israel repent via the Two-witnesses), followed by the 1290(AoD event), then the 1260 Beast conquer Israel. The Jews REPENT..........then FLEE............then the 2/3 we refused to repent will DIE *and we know why). It all fits. Just do away with the BRAIN FREEZE we all had. God had a riddle He did not want solved until now.

There are 2 separate timelines that are being confused.
Daniel's 70th week is the final 7 years of punishment upon Israel. The 1st half of the 70th week results from a 10-nation peace treaty making a new Roman Empire. The 2nd half of the 70th week is the GT when AC takes over the new Roman Empire.

No, if you wait on 10 nations you will miss it. God would never give Satan that much info long ago. The number 10 means COMPLETION, so once the League of Rome started talking in the 50s, whatever the number was when they first reformed the E.U. the #10 stood for COMPLETION or the complete E.U. If it started with 7-8 it was 10 when more joined at lets say 17 it was 10 (complete E.U.) when it git to 28 with England it was 10 (complete Europe United) when England left it was still 10, or Complete E.U.

The E.U. is that 10, they are in place NOW, when Israel joins the E.U. its not a Peace Treaty per se, no more than when Hawaii joined the USA it was a Peace Treaty. But the A.C. will have a trade agreement with THE MANY (every nation on the Mediterranean Sea Coastline), as a matter of fact the E.U. has that now, with Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Libya and Algeria, its called the European Neighborhood Policy. The thing that will separate Israel is they will join the E.U. that will cause God's anger to arise, that is like them giving away "God's land" thus he Raptures the Church at that time and that starts the 70th week penance. The A.C. is n place at the start of the 70th week.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

CONTINUED.........

In the middle of the 70th week, sacrifice will cease and the abomination of desolation will be set up. This is day 1260 of the 70th week, but it is day 1 of the GT. This is the day Israel flees.
AC reigns during the 2nd half of the 70th week.
The 2 witnesses/Elijah and Moses/the 144,000, witness during the 2nd half of the 70th week.
I'm not sure what happens on day 1290 of the 2nd timeline. My best guess is the destruction of the world capital or Babylon.
From the end of the 70th week until day 1335 is the time of God's wrath. It is likely that Jesus will return 75 days after the 70th week.

Its not some Profane Meat Sacrifice that is taken away which "DEFILES" the temple, its Jesus Worship being forbidden, the the F.P. placing the Image of the E.U. President up in the temple of God. The A.C. is the E.U. President from day 1, he makes the Agreement (gets Israel to join the E.U.)

The A.C. becomes THE BEAST on day 1260, but he's the E.U. President the whole time.

The Two-witnesses show up 1335 days before the 2nd coming. The 144,000 is merely a CODE, you see the #12 = Fulness and the #10 = Completeness so 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or God SHOUTING this is ALL Israel who repents (5 Million = 1/3 of 15 million) and now you know why they are seen in Rev. 7 JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8 via the Asteroid Impact. This is why the Seals DO NOTHING, they are Jesus demonstrating what will come to pass via the 7th Seal opening up the Scrolled Trumpet Judgments.

I agree AC is a politician and part of the 10 nations that will form a new Roman Empire. He will originally reign just in Seleucia (Syria and part of Iraq to the Euphrates River). I am looking at the Quint as 1 foot - US, UK, France, Germany, and Italy. The other foot will likely have Seleucia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, plus 1 other. Seleucia will take power from Rome for the last 1260 days.

Those in Rev 7:9-16 come out of the GT so they can't be pre-trib. They have to be in the GT before they can come out of the GT.

He's not a Muslim, he has Assyrian blood, but READ Dan. 8:9 he has to be born in Greece and come to power in the E.U. (Dan. 7:7-8) The E.U. is the 10 you have to be able t understand God speak. See the Church of Smyrna, they were to have tribulation 10 days (Rev. 2:10) but that just means for the COMPLETE Church Age. The 10 Plagues and 10 Commandments, the 10 Virgin Brides. Get it now? The #7 = Divine Completion thus the 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits simply mean God SEES ALL and is EVERYWHERE. The 7 Beast Heads and 10 Horns has perfect Symmetry, if we know what to look for. The feet and legs mean nothing, there were TWO ARMS also, no one tries to form two kingdoms from that. The Roman Beast died via Constantine turning unto the Gospels.

God is giving us multiple connections with different Beasts. In Dan. 2:37-41 where it says Alexander the Great conquers the whole earth (being spoken about in the Mediterranean Sea Region) and that never happened, but one of his branches will do that, the end time Beast represents all of the other Beasts also, thats why God shows it as ONE BEAST with 7 Heads and 10 horns in the book of Revelation.

They CAN'T come out of the 70th week because Jesus ells them they will not get vengeance until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner, so he gives them a white robe and tells them they must wait. Then in Rev. 20:4 we see ONLY THOSE Martyrs who refused to take the Mark of the Beast will reign with Christ for 1000 years and they get JUDGED WHEN? After the 2nd coming, its there for all to see. So, it CAN NOT BE THEM.......so the obvious answer has to be found in John 16:33 Jesus told his Disciples that they would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION in this evil earth. So, I would say millions murdered over a 2000 year period is GREAT TRIBULATION, it never says they came out of the Greatest Ever Tribulation, just Great Tribulation, you assume it means the Greatest Ever, I don't. I assume it means the Great Church Age Tribulation, because it can't mean the 70th week, and ALL TIME is Tribulation on this earth.

Our spirit man has gone to heaven since Jesus' blood was shed in heaven. It was this sacrifice that fulfilled the law and enabled us to enter heaven. While our spirit man has been going to heaven for 2000 years, all of our bodies will go into the clouds at the exact same time. The CHANGE is from mortal to immortal for the dead body and for those who are alive at Jesus' coming.

We sleep, Dan. 12:1-2 tells you this as does Paul in 1 Cor. 15 when he says we shall not ALL SLEEP. Meaning we are not in Heaven, we are at rest, waiting on that call from Jesus.

I will keep looking for 10 nations, but we won't have to wait long according to your calculations!

You are wasting your time, the E.U. is the 10 (Complete Rome Revived)

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Woe comes to the earth in the form of trumpets 5,6, and 7 because Satan has been cast to earth.
Rev 8:13 "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"
Rev 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

No, that timing does not add up. Satan in Rev. 12 chases the woman (Israel) for how many days? 1260. So, he is cast down in the exact middle of the week. When the Anti-Christ conquers Israel AND when God's Wrath falls, because both happen at the exact same time. God casts Satan out in the middle of the week when his Asteroid hits earth, and when he allows the A.C. to go forth conquering.

Trumps 5, 6 and 7 are Judgments from God. Every word when mentioned does not have to be a single use word, this is where bad understandings arrive from. The best way to dissect these things is via TIMELINES. By doing so you have him as being cast down at the 5th Trump, which is in error.

The timing here is the last trump which is different from the trump in 1 Thes.
Trump in 1 Thes is followed by the millennium, which is followed by the last trump. No rapture at the last trump. See post 207 for the full explanation.

No its not, this is why you guys who can't see the Pre Trib. Rapture get all of your timings wrong. This Trump in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 is Jesus ending the Harvest (Feast of weeks) by calling us home, at the Last Trump (Feast of Trumps) just as happened every year in Israel. That is followed by the Feast of Atonement (the Jews must repent) and followed by the Feast of Tabernacles (Israel dwells with God/Jesus for 1000 years).

All of the dead will be in their graves. That's where we put dead people.

And the Dead are raised with NO BODY (WITHOUT CORRUPTION) it seems you do not understand Paul's point, SIN FLESH is corruption. We who are alive will then be TRANSFORMED, CHANGED, from corruptible sun flesh to Spirit Men, so we can go be with the Lord like the dead who are raised.

Try to understand my chart of the 6 stories. Once you see it, you won't be able to unsee it.

Once we get raptured it will come to you that ole Ron knew it all on prophecy.

 

[Davy]

I agree with this. The period of great tribulation ends before the period of God's wrath begins.

In reality, God's wrath begins with the 1st Vial, and on the 6th Trumpet is what the plagues God's "two witnesses" will work against the beast is His wrath too. But God's 'final' wrath will be on the 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet, which wrath will literally destroy man's works off this earth and end this present world time, all done via God's consuming fire on the last day of this world. That is when Jesus showed He comes "as a thief" per Rev.16:15.

I think you are reading too much into this. The day of Christ's coming is at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. The last day of the world is after the millennial kingdom has ended. 2 Peter 3:10 corresponds with Rev 20:9-11.

I'm staying strictly with the written Scripture.

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

Paul was pulling the above from the Old Testament prophets about the final day of this present world time, which is over when Jesus comes. That "sudden destruction" is about the 7th Vial being poured out on the last day of this present world we are in now. And that destruction is what God's consuming fire is about that Peter mentioned for the same time Paul said...

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Then Lord Jesus showed that is when His coming is, that He comes "as a thief"...

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Sorry, you can just try and move... that to after Christ's future "thousand years" reign. I really don't know where you even got that idea, lest you've fallen to ideas based on the old fale Gnostic doctrine of Amillennialism.

I agree with this, but I would not describe it as the end of this world.

Some of God's people will not die during the great tribulation as you have stated. I do not agree with pre-trib because once you see that 6 stories of Revelation come to the same end, you are not able to unsee it!
The Peace and Safety describes the formation of a new Roman Empire, a 10 nation peace treaty that Israel will enter. This is the start of Daniel's 70th week. After 3.5 years, AC will take over this Roman Empire from the area of Seleucia. The GT is the time of AC's reign, the time if allowed to continue, everyone on earth would have died. Fortunately, God intervenes by raising the 2 witnesses, ending the GT.

Hmm.... . When I say, end of the world, I mean this present 2nd world earth age. Apostle Peter actually covered 3 earth world ages in 2 Peter 3. This 2nd one we are in began at Genesis 1:2 and ends with the day of Christ's future return. And that is when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth, for Christ's future "thousand years" reign will not be one when we are in flesh bodies. No one will be in a flesh type body any longer when Jesus returns to start His reign with His elect saints.

As for Paul's "Peace and safety" the deceived will be saying when "sudden destruction" comes upon them, that is for the "great tribulation" time when the false-Messiah has come to work great signs and wonders on this earth, healing all of the world's woes, giving you anything you want as long as you bow in worship to him, etc. That will be a time of 'world peace' on earth during false-Messiah's rule of 42 months (Rev.13:4-8). All the world will wonder at that beast, except Christ's elect. So that is about the time when today's New World Order movement will be completed, with Satan's host in full reign over all nations and peoples. The deceived will then say, "Peace and safety", no more wars, world peace, chicken in every pot. It's those pushing the false Pre-trib Rapture theory lie that are claiming the "great tribulation" time is going to be all out chaos and war. No, Daniel 8 shows us the coming Antichrist will destroy many using peace, put for deceiving them. At the end of that tribulation, when Jesus does return, that is when that "sudden destruction" upon will happen. In the Book of Isaiah, that destruction event is said to happen at an instant suddenly, and that is where Paul is pulling from.

And no, the end will not be about a Roman empire. That is a leaven doctrine from men.

What God's Word points to is JERUSALEM in a state of IDOL worship with a newly built stone temple by the Jews, and a return to their old covenant type worship with sacrifices. The "abomination of desolation" prophecy that Jesus quoted from Daniel 11:31 requires all that for the very end of this world.

Could the deceived Roman Church be a part of support for that false Messiah in Jerusalem, deceiving its members? Yes! including many Protestant church systems also that will be deceived by that false-Messiah with thinking he is Jesus Christ returned. All religions then will believe that false-Messiah is God.

 

[Davy]

Isn't the throne in heaven along with the sea of glass? This is before Jesus comes to earth.
Rev 14:1-5 occurs before Jesus comes to earth in Rev 14:14.
Rev 15:2-3 occurs before Jesus comes to earth in Rev 16:21

No, those events are definitely AFTER... Jesus has returned, and His elect are next to His throne, as written in those Rev.14 and 15 chapters. Revelation is written in the style of the Old Testament prophets. Timelines can move very quickly back and forth like the OT prophets. It is error thinking that how every event is written in Revelation must be the order they all happen.

This means that everything after the great earthquake in Rev 6:12 are not GT timing. The great earthquake of Rev 6:12 ends the GT. The 2 witnesses are around for 42 months of GT until they are raised into heaven at the time of this great earthquake in Rev 11:13.

You are not spiritually 'seeing' those "untimely figs" of Rev.6:13. An untimely fig is about the real winter fig that grows in the winter and falls off in the spring. That is a spiritual metaphor for the coming of the false-Christ. He comes first, working supernatural miracles playing Christ. He is represented by that "untimely fig" idea, an EARLY fig. The symbolic harvest time that Jesus said is SUMMER, not winter or spring.

Luke 21:30-31
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
KJV

The falling away is what allows the rise of the false Messiah. 2 Thes 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The falling away is hard-linked to the time of the false-Messiah's appearing and the deceived being fooled by him, which is what the "strong delusion" Paul mentions later is about. People deceived today is only leading up to that future tribulation time of their deception of bowing to that false-Christ. And that pseudo-Christ has not yet come today, and certainly is not... a pope. That "man of sin" is to appear as a false-Christ in Jerusalem for the end, not Rome. Paul in 2 Thess.2 was warning what Jesus was warning in Matt.24:23-26 about that pseudo-Christ for the end of this world.

Saints have kept the AC from taking world authority for 2000 years. We are now in the time of falling away. Post Christian Europe and a falling away in America will allow for the rise of the AC.

It is not about America or Europe. It is about the coming false-Messiah as head over all nations from Jerusalem, not Rome.

It would appear that only Jesus stays on earth during the length of the millennium. 1 Cor 15:22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

If the Father was still on earth in verse 24, he wouldn't deliver up to God the kingdom on earth.

Jesus will come and go between heaven and earth in that future time, which is shown in the latter Ezekiel chapters. Jesus will not deliver up the kingdom to The Father until after the future "thousand years" reign. That future reign with His elect is over all His enemies that are left, the unsaved nations of Rev.20. The Father does not return to earth for that reign, which Paul also explains in those 1 Cor.15 verses.

6 past heads: 1, Babylon, 2, Media-Persia, 3, Greece, 4, Ptolemy (King of the South), 5, Seleucia (King of the North), 6, Rome
1 future head 7, new Rome and an 8th, Seleucia will come to rule over new Rome.

That's really just speculation, because Egypt and Assyria could be in the list instead of what you have for no.4 and no.5. The 6th beast king was emperor Domitian of Rome in Apostle John's day while prisoner on the Isle of Patmos. The early Church fathers said John was released after Domitian died, and that John went to Ephesus and lived there.

The 7th beast king will be the final Antichrist for the coming time of "great tribulation", a pseudo-Christ with power to work great signs, wonders, and miracles on earth that will deceive the whole world (except Christ's elect).

The 8th beast king will be when Satan is loosed out of his pit prison after Christ's future "thousand years" reign per Rev.20. Satan will tempt the nations one last time, and then be destroyed in the "lake of fire".

The crowns were upon its heads means that at Jesus' birth, #6 Rome was in charge. The crowns move to the 10 horns when #7 Rome is in charge. These will be the 10 nations that will form the new Roman Empire. This is the equivalent of the Dan 2 statue dream where the 10 toes are the 10 horns. Both dreams do show Satan is in charge of all of these kingdoms.

I am in basic agreement with the 3 woes.

The "crowns" are not defined by Rome. The beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 back when Satan first rebelled against God, drawing a third of the angels to earth, had ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns. And Rome did not even exist back then. So your Romish doctrines of men really do not work.

 

[Davy]

These people are before the throne, before the throne has come to earth. Therefore, they died.

I suggest you study about the day of Christ's return and what Apostle Paul showed about the saints still alive on earth on that day being "caught up" to Jesus. Those still alive are NOT killed. They will be 'changed' at the twinkling of an eye to their "spiritual body" like Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. And the only time when they are before the throne in the heavenly with their reward of a crown is AFTER... Jesus has returned to gather them, and not before.

The order of events concerning God coming to earth is always God the Father and then God the Son.

I don't know where in the world you are getting that idea. The only Scripture that even hints to when The Father emphatically returns to earth is what Paul said about the Godhead in 1 Cor.15:23-28 and John in Rev.21, and of course the very last verse of Ezekiel 48.

Rev 6:16 "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne (Father), and from the wrath of the Lamb (Son):"

That is the time when Jesus comes, on the 2nd part of the 6th Seal. The 7th Seal represents a time of rest. But the order of Jesus coming is 777 (7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial).

The second or last resurrection comes at the time of the 2nd or last trump of God. This will be at the end of Jesus' 1000-year reign on earth. Note how a rapture is not immediately associated with the 2nd/last resurrection.

1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1st resurrection, start of millennium)
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (2nd resurrection, end of millennium)
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (This is when those of the 2nd resurrection, camp of the saints is delivered up/raptured.)

I think it is better said that after Christ's "thousand years" reign at God's Great White Throne Judgment, is when the 2nd resurrection unto Jesus Christ will happen. That is why the Rev.20:12 says the book of life is opened to see if there are any names written in it. That checking of the book of life at that point is not about those of the "first resurrection". Thus men's leaven doctrine that the inferred 2nd resurrection is about the damned being cast into the lake of fire is not really there in the Scriptures. The implied 2nd resurrection is another one unto eternal Life in Jesus Christ. That is what Christ's "thousand years" reign is for, to preach The Gospel to the unsaved nations that haven't heard so they can make their choice to believe, or not.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (2nd resurrection, end of millennium)

No, no, no, no!
That "last trump" is for the "day of the Lord" timing when Jesus comes to end this present time, and gather His faithful Church! What you are saying is that Jesus doesn't gather His Church until after... His "thousand years" reign, which your idea is NOT written.

I don't know who you are listening to, but they have definitely led you astray on those matters of Bible prophecy.

 

[Timtofly]

According to what you state, Jesus first harvest of the Second Coming is 2 billion during the seals.
According to what you state, Jesus first harvest of the Second Coming is 2 billion during the trumpets.
According to what you state, Jesus first harvest of the Second Coming is 2 billion during the thunders.
How does that make sense? That is 3 separate harvests. Does Jesus come 3 times?

The harvest of the Godly is the raising of the dead out of their graves, the changing of the dead and the living to immortal beings, and the rapture of these immortal beings. The only Godly harvest reference in the Revelation is in Rev 14:14-16
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Jesus only comes one time. You turned it into 3 separate returns. Who is being harvested? 3 groups. The church. Israel. The nations who follow Christ. Jesus is on the earth with His angels gathering the final harvest per Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. Matthew 13 covers the Thunders. Matthew 25 covers the first 6 Trumpets.

Revelation 14:17-20 is the harvest of those who remain. There will be no third woe if Revelation 14 happens. The Millennium will start at that point, with chapter 20.

When John saw the events of Revelation 14, Revelation 11:15 already happened 7 days prior. Revelation 14 happened at the end of the week of the days of the 7th Trumpet. Those verses you put into your post just shows that the harvest is complete.

The final harvest happened during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

Many see the Second Coming as an instant of time and "poof", all humanity is gone.

Jesus is not returning as a baby in the womb so will not be on earth for 33 years. But Jesus is returning to finish the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The 3.5 years as Messiah was completed in the first century. The 3.5 years as Prince is what the book of Revelation is about. Humanity does not just go poof at the Second Coming, not even by the standards of Revelation 14. Revelation 14 is the wrap up of a week long celebration where all nations on earth were declared under the direct kingship and control of Jesus from Jerusalem. Revelation 14 is just declaring the harvest over and completely finished. Satan can be bound, and the Millennium can start.

Revelation 14 is the preferred ending instead of Revelation 19, which is an extension of 42 months given to Satan as the 8th kingdom after Jesus was just announced as the 7th Kingdom. If Revelation 14 happens, then Revelation 19 will not happen. If Revelation 19 happens, then Revelation 14 will not happen. There is only one final winepress of God's wrath. The one in Revelation 14, or the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19.

"And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

All I was pointing out is the systematical removal of humanity 2 billion at a time. If we start out with 8 billion, 25% is 2 billion. That leaves 6 billion. 33% of 6 billion is still 2 billion. Staying consistent in the Thunders which have been sealed, we would see 50%, another 2 billion. The winepress is 100% and all who are left will physically die.

Even the redeemed don't take this current physical body with them at the Second Coming. There is still the physical aspect of death that is left behind. That should be accounted for in the symbolism of the book of Revelation.

The book of Revelation is not giving us the percentage of who is righteous and who ends up in the LOF. The book is telling us how many leave this body of death, and either enter eternal life or eternal damnation during each part of the final harvest. The first generation of the Millennial Kingdom of those living on the earth both of Israel and all nations have eternal life of the first resurrection. They will not face the GWT nor the second death. However they will rule over dozens of generations of people born during the Millennium who will choose to obey the iron rod rule of Jesus Christ for themselves.

The Millennium is a time of rest and is Holy. It is not a time to "weed out" the unrighteous. The last 2 millennia has been the time to "weed out" the unrighteous, and it seems not many have been "weeded out". The vast majority of humans are still in rejection mode of the Gospel. The majority of the last 2 millenia are waiting in sheol for the GWT Judgment.

 

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Not so, the end when Jesus returns is Rev. 16:19, Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Chapter, see it speaks about Woe #2? Well, that happens in Rev. 9 right? You get the DETAILS in Rev. 9 and with the 3rd Woe, which comes via the 7th Trump, we get those DETAILS in Rev. 16.

Rev 11 does give details about what happens in Rev 9 because Rev 9, 10 and 11 are all inclusive in the 2nd woe. When the army of AC moves from the Euphrates River to Jerusalem, the 3.5-year countdown begins.

I also agree that Rev 16 is another description of the 3rd woe, 7th trump.

Revelation 8, 9 and 16 (15&16 is really one chapter, see Rev. 8, the Angels READY the Trumps to sound in the first few verses THEN start blowing, in Rev. 15 the Angels READY the Vials to be poured out, then that happens in Rev. 16, thus they really should be one chapter, men added in the chapters and verses)

Rev 8:2 plus Rev 8:6-11:19 are a complete chronology that ends when Jesus arrives.
Rev 15:1-Rev 16:21 is a separate chronology that ends when Jesus arrives.
The only disagreement we have here is that Rev 8, verses 1, 3, 4, and 5 all belong to a chronology that goes from Rev 7:1-8:5. Jesus comes at the time of Rev 8:5.

Thus you confuse Rev. 11 with ending the 70th week events, when its really just the 1260 day Ministry of the Two-witnesses and we are told the 7th Trump sounds and that will give the Kingdoms of the earth back unto God, BUT...........that just foretells what the 7th Trump which the Two-witnesses prayed down will eventually bring, VICTORY, but only when the 7 Vials have been poured out.

This is the difference between us, God declares VICTORY before the 7 vials are poured out, not when Jesus returns.
Rev 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
Rev 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
The kingdoms of the world are transferred from AC to God before God pours out his wrath on AC during the 75 days. The reign of AC ends with the 2nd woe even though AC is still alive.

Victory over death:
God showed by raising the 2 witnesses that he has power over death and power over the devil, just as he showed when he raised Jesus from the dead.
Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Thus they show up 1335 days before the 2nd Coming, and die 75 days before the 2nd coming.

I agree with this.

They show up 75 days before the A.C. conquers Israel to become The Beast

I don't agree with this.

, and thus they also die 75 days before he does.

I do agree with this.

This is the ONLY REASON God gave them both 1260 day ordained by God timelines on this earth via "their duties" so to speak. They have to show up before the Beast, else how would Israel (the 1/3 who repent) know they needed to flee Judea unto safety in the Petra/Bozrah area? So, when the see the 1290 AoD, which is not the Beast but his False Prophet sidekick, they will know to flee Judea.

I believe the 2 witnesses/144,000 will begin their 1260 day ministry by entering the open doors of Jewish families and sitting at the empty plate set for Elijah on the evening of Passover. On the following morning, Jewish animal sacrifice of the Lamb on the temple mount will cease, the AoD will be seen, and the Jewish families who just received the testimony of the 2 witnesses will flee on that very day. This is the day that the beast begins his 42-month reign over Israel.

You have to step back brother and look at this from 20,000 feet. God demands all men come unto Him by faith alone. God sends the Two-witnesses back BEFORE the DOTL (see Malachi 4:5 it says so). They get Israel to repent that is the only reason the flee Judea at the 1290. Then 30 days later the Beast conquers Israel, QUESTION: If the A.C./Beast was the one taking away the Sacrifice (forbidding Jesus worship) and placing the AoD (Image) then why would he allow the Jews to flee Judea? Makes no no sense brother. Now, go read Rev. 13, who gets THE PEOPLE to place THE IMAGE? It says the 2nd Beast (F.P.) does. You have your whole timeline twisted. The book of Revelation is not in Chronological Order.

Mal 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers,...

Elijah comes 1260 + 75 days before Rev 6:17. "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

No, the FULCRUM POINT is the 2nd Coming that ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS watch this.

Day 1......................Day 1185 is 1335 days away from Jesus' 2nd Coming...................................2nd Coming 2520

2520 - 1185 =1335

Day 1............................day 1230 is 1290 days away from the 2nd Coming...................................2nd Coming 2520

2520 - 1230 = 1290

Day 1.......................................day 1260 is 1260 days away from the 2nd Coming.........................2nd coming 2520

2520 - 1260 = 1260

You are not getting Gods riddle, do not feel bad, no o e got it for 2500 years. All three numbers are EVENTS, and we then have to figure out what the said events are. Its easy to understand the 1260, its the same number both ways and we see Israel's power is scattered for 1260 days and then we know that ALL OF THESE (Dan. 11:36-45) WONDERS will end !! We living now know what ends all these wonders is Jesus Christs 2nd coming. Yet..........when Daniel asks the exact same question in vs. 8 as the angel did in vs. 6 we for some reason have a brain lapse, we do not understand that the 1290 AoD is 1290 days away from when ALL THESE THINGS end. Also the 1335 Blessing is 1335 days from when ALL THESE THINGS end.

Thus the 1335 blessing comes first(Israel repent via the Two-witnesses), followed by the 1290(AoD event), then the 1260 Beast conquer Israel. The Jews REPENT..........then FLEE............then the 2/3 we refused to repent will DIE *and we know why). It all fits. Just do away with the BRAIN FREEZE we all had. God had a riddle He did not want solved until now.

The difference between our countdowns lies entirely on what we believe about Rev 10:7. How do you interpret this verse?

No, if you wait on 10 nations you will miss it. God would never give Satan that much info long ago. The number 10 means COMPLETION, so once the League of Rome started talking in the 50s, whatever the number was when they first reformed the E.U. the #10 stood for COMPLETION or the complete E.U. If it started with 7-8 it was 10 when more joined at lets say 17 it was 10 (complete E.U.) when it git to 28 with England it was 10 (complete Europe United) when England left it was still 10, or Complete E.U.

The E.U. is that 10, they are in place NOW, when Israel joins the E.U. its not a Peace Treaty per se, no more than when Hawaii joined the USA it was a Peace Treaty. But the A.C. will have a trade agreement with THE MANY (every nation on the Mediterranean Sea Coastline), as a matter of fact the E.U. has that now, with Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Libya and Algeria, its called the European Neighborhood Policy. The thing that will separate Israel is they will join the E.U. that will cause God's anger to arise, that is like them giving away "God's land" thus he Raptures the Church at that time and that starts the 70th week penance. The A.C. is n place at the start of the 70th week.

That seems like a stretch to me. If the AC reigns over Europe and Israel at the start of the 70th week, how is it that he reigns for 42 months?

 

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CONTINUED.........


Its not some Profane Meat Sacrifice that is taken away which "DEFILES" the temple, its Jesus Worship being forbidden, the the F.P. placing the Image of the E.U. President up in the temple of God. The A.C. is the E.U. President from day 1, he makes the Agreement (gets Israel to join the E.U.)

Isn't Jesus worship being forbidden represented by the removal of the Lamb sacrifice? "You have to be able to understand God speak."

The A.C. becomes THE BEAST on day 1260, but he's the E.U. President the whole time.

How does the AC transition from EU President to The Beast?

The Two-witnesses show up 1335 days before the 2nd coming. The 144,000 is merely a CODE, you see the #12 = Fulness and the #10 = Completeness so 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or God SHOUTING this is ALL Israel who repents (5 Million = 1/3 of 15 million) and now you know why they are seen in Rev. 7 JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8 via the Asteroid Impact. This is why the Seals DO NOTHING, they are Jesus demonstrating what will come to pass via the 7th Seal opening up the Scrolled Trumpet Judgments.

I have addressed our differences in the 2-witness timeline.

I can't find support for the CODE you mention involving the 144,000, God SHOUTING, ALL Israel, God's Wrath via the Asteroid Impact, the DO NOTHING seals, or how the 7th Seal opens the Scrolled Trumpet Judgments.

He's not a Muslim, he has Assyrian blood, but READ Dan. 8:9 he has to be born in Greece and come to power in the E.U. (Dan. 7:7-8) The E.U. is the 10 you have to be able t understand God speak. See the Church of Smyrna, they were to have tribulation 10 days (Rev. 2:10) but that just means for the COMPLETE Church Age. The 10 Plagues and 10 Commandments, the 10 Virgin Brides. Get it now? The #7 = Divine Completion thus the 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits simply mean God SEES ALL and is EVERYWHERE. The 7 Beast Heads and 10 Horns has perfect Symmetry, if we know what to look for. The feet and legs mean nothing, there were TWO ARMS also, no one tries to form two kingdoms from that. The Roman Beast died via Constantine turning unto the Gospels.

He has to come to power in Seleucia. I just learned that Trump is planning to make Syria a "safe zone."

Are you making the point that the 10 Plagues lasted for some complete age? I think 10 means 10.

What is the 8th in Rev 17:11?

Are you referring to the TWO ARMS of Media and Persia that formed into 1 beast?

I believe the Roman Beast did die, but it will come back to life just as did Israel and just as will Seleucia.

God is giving us multiple connections with different Beasts. In Dan. 2:37-41 where it says Alexander the Great conquers the whole earth (being spoken about in the Mediterranean Sea Region) and that never happened, but one of his branches will do that, the end time Beast represents all of the other Beasts also, thats why God shows it as ONE BEAST with 7 Heads and 10 horns in the book of Revelation.

The one beast is shown as the one statue in Dan 2. This one statue is comprised of 4 kingdoms. The 4 kingdoms are comprised of 7 Heads. The 7th Head is comprised of 10 horns. This is true for Daniel and Revelation. See my chart at the end.

They CAN'T come out of the 70th week because Jesus ells them they will not get vengeance until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner, so he gives them a white robe and tells them they must wait. Then in Rev. 20:4 we see ONLY THOSE Martyrs who refused to take the Mark of the Beast will reign with Christ for 1000 years and they get JUDGED WHEN? After the 2nd coming, its there for all to see. So, it CAN NOT BE THEM.......so the obvious answer has to be found in John 16:33 Jesus told his Disciples that they would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION in this evil earth. So, I would say millions murdered over a 2000 year period is GREAT TRIBULATION, it never says they came out of the Greatest Ever Tribulation, just Great Tribulation, you assume it means the Greatest Ever, I don't. I assume it means the Great Church Age Tribulation, because it can't mean the 70th week, and ALL TIME is Tribulation on this earth.

The answer is found in Rev 14. Verses 1-5 show the firstfruits of the resurrection/rapture at the end of the great tribulation. Verses 6-13 show the time after the great tribulation, the 75 days of God's wrath. God's saints still die during this period of time. Verses 14-16 show Jesus' return and the resurrection/rapture. Verses 17-20 show the last part of God's wrath.

During the 75 days of God's wrath, Christians are still being killed, but heaven is closed. That is why there are 2 groups of people in Rev 20:4.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: (Group 1: Adam through the 2 witnesses are included plus the great multitude of Rev 7.) and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Group 2: This group is entirely those who die during the 75-day period of God's wrath.)

We sleep, Dan. 12:1-2 tells you this as does Paul in 1 Cor. 15 when he says we shall not ALL SLEEP. Meaning we are not in Heaven, we are at rest, waiting on that call from Jesus.

Our bones are resting in the ground, but our spirits are alive with Christ in heaven. At the resurrection/rapture our bones and spirits will be united.

You are wasting your time, the E.U. is the 10 (Complete Rome Revived)

Quint + 5? Rome is not currently in charge of the EU. Rome is not the world capital. Babylon is defined as Rev 17:18 "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth", world capital for short. In the first century, Babylon was Rome. During the new Roman Empire, Rome will again be the world capital. This detail excludes the EU from consideration as the 10.