7 Common Errors of Interpretation for Chapters 4-6 of Revelation

[6 Stories]

No, that timing does not add up. Satan in Rev. 12 chases the woman (Israel) for how many days? 1260. So, he is cast down in the exact middle of the week. When the Anti-Christ conquers Israel AND when God's Wrath falls, because both happen at the exact same time. God casts Satan out in the middle of the week when his Asteroid hits earth, and when he allows the A.C. to go forth conquering.

There are 2 chronologies leading to the great tribulation in Rev 12.
Chronology 1. Rev 12:1-5 describes the coming of Jesus in the first century which is followed in verse 6 with 1260 days of great tribulation.
Chronology 2. Rev 12:7-13 describes the time of trumpets until verse 14, a time, times, and half a time; which is the 1260 days of great tribulation.

If the 1st chronology can jump from Jesus' 1st coming to the great trib, surely the 2nd chronology shouldn't be limited to 7 years. Don't you agree that Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 describe the same period of time, the period of great tribulation?

Rev 13 again describes the great tribulation as 42 months which is followed by Rev 14, the time after the great tribulation, which is the 75 days of God's wrath. Each of the 6 chronological sequences in Rev 6-19 follow this same pattern. It's undeniable once you see it.

Trumps 5, 6 and 7 are Judgments from God. Every word when mentioned does not have to be a single use word, this is where bad understandings arrive from. The best way to dissect these things is via TIMELINES. By doing so you have him as being cast down at the 5th Trump, which is in error.

I agree with your TIMELINES hypothesis. Look at these 6 harmonious timelines!

No its not, this is why you guys who can't see the Pre Trib. Rapture get all of your timings wrong. This Trump in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 is Jesus ending the Harvest (Feast of weeks) by calling us home, at the Last Trump (Feast of Trumps) just as happened every year in Israel. That is followed by the Feast of Atonement (the Jews must repent) and followed by the Feast of Tabernacles (Israel dwells with God/Jesus for 1000 years).

or
The feast of Passover starts the great tribulation. The book of Jonah, the sign of Jesus, is read on the Day of Atonement just before the death and resurrection of the 2 witnesses. The feast of Tabernacles ends the great tribulation. Since Jews will be in their tabernacles without roofs, they will be able to witness the ascension of the 2 witnesses, ending the period of great tribulation.

And the Dead are raised with NO BODY (WITHOUT CORRUPTION) it seems you do not understand Paul's point, SIN FLESH is corruption. We who are alive will then be TRANSFORMED, CHANGED, from corruptible sun flesh to Spirit Men, so we can go be with the Lord like the dead who are raised.

It seems you do not understand that Jesus who took on all sin and the 2 witnesses had their flesh transformed and raised into heaven, not just the Spirit.

Once we get raptured it will come to you that ole Ron knew it all on prophecy.

Thanks Ron!

 

[6 Stories]

In reality, God's wrath begins with the 1st Vial, and on the 6th Trumpet is what the plagues God's "two witnesses" will work against the beast is His wrath too. But God's 'final' wrath will be on the 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet, which wrath will literally destroy man's works off this earth and end this present world time, all done via God's consuming fire on the last day of this world. That is when Jesus showed He comes "as a thief" per Rev.16:15.

I agree that God's wrath begins with the 1st Vial and that God's final wrath will be on the 7th Vial. The beast v God's 2 witnesses is the time known as the great tribulation which occurs before the 1st Vial.

1 Cor 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Verse 23. Christians will be resurrected/raptured at Christ's second coming. We will reign with Jesus over mortals still on earth.
Verses 24-25 Jesus reigns on earth for 1000 years according to Rev 20. At the end of the 1000 years, Jesus will have put down all opposition to his kingdom on earth. Nobody who belongs to Jesus will die after those 1000 years.
Satan will come upon earth after those 1000 years and the mortals on earth will be killed. Rev 20:8-9
Verse 26 After all mortals have been died, death itself will be destroyed. Those who had died are alive before God's throne in Rev 20:12 as death is destroyed in Rev 20:14.

If mortals were not on earth during the 1000 years, Satan would have nobody to deceive and death would be under Jesus' feet at the start of the 1000 years, not at the end of those years.

Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things (1000 years-Davidic Covenant) which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

I'm staying strictly with the written Scripture.

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

Paul was pulling the above from the Old Testament prophets about the final day of this present world time, which is over when Jesus comes. That "sudden destruction" is about the 7th Vial being poured out on the last day of this present world we are in now. And that destruction is what God's consuming fire is about that Peter mentioned for the same time Paul said...

The "Day of the Lord" refers to more than a single time. For example, the Day of the Lord also referred to the time of King Nebuchadnezzar.
Ez 30
3 For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
4 And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down.
5 Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword.
6 Thus saith the Lord; They also that uphold Egypt shall fall; and the pride of her power shall come down: from the tower of Syene shall they fall in it by the sword, saith the Lord God.
7 And they shall be desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities shall be in the midst of the cities that are wasted.
8 And they shall know that I am the Lord, when I have set a fire in Egypt, and when all her helpers shall be destroyed.
9 In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.
10 Thus saith the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.

1 Thes 5:2-3 is a time of the heathen. Israel will enter a time of peace in Daniel's 70th week. However, after 3.5 years, sudden destruction from AC will come upon them. This Day of the Lord refers to the period of great tribulation.

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. What 2nd Peter shows is the total annihilation of what God created. The only time that God's current creation goes away is Rev 21:1.

Then Lord Jesus showed that is when His coming is, that He comes "as a thief"...

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Sorry, you can just try and move... that to after Christ's future "thousand years" reign. I really don't know where you even got that idea, lest you've fallen to ideas based on the old fale Gnostic doctrine of Amillennialism.

Jesus will come and it will be a surprise at the end of this age, before the millennium. It is just not the only thing that God has done that has taken the people by surprise.

When I say, end of the world, I mean this present 2nd world earth age. Apostle Peter actually covered 3 earth world ages in 2 Peter 3. This 2nd one we are in began at Genesis 1:2 and ends with the day of Christ's future return...No one will be in a flesh type body any longer when Jesus returns to start His reign with His elect saints.

Why do you limit the fire in 2 Peter 3 to works? Why is hades not emptied until after the millennium, after Satan is released?

As for Paul's "Peace and safety"...

I guess I just wasted my time above.

And no, the end will not be about a Roman empire. That is a leaven doctrine from men.

Dan 2
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Who are the kings of verse 44?

What God's Word points to is JERUSALEM in a state of IDOL worship with a newly built stone temple by the Jews, and a return to their old covenant type worship with sacrifices. The "abomination of desolation" prophecy that Jesus quoted from Daniel 11:31 requires all that for the very end of this world.

I agree.

Could the deceived Roman Church be a part of support for that false Messiah in Jerusalem, deceiving its members? Yes! including many Protestant church systems also that will be deceived by that false-Messiah with thinking he is Jesus Christ returned. All religions then will believe that false-Messiah is God.

The Pope is trying to unite religions. I could see Chrislam, a unity of Christianity and Islam and its leaders as the false prophet more than AC. I had to delete some of what you said to post.

 

[6 Stories]

No, those events are definitely AFTER... Jesus has returned, and His elect are next to His throne, as written in those Rev.14 and 15 chapters. Revelation is written in the style of the Old Testament prophets. Timelines can move very quickly back and forth like the OT prophets. It is error thinking that how every event is written in Revelation must be the order they all happen.

If that was true, we couldn't make any sense out of the Bible. Timelines do have gaps, but they are always in order.

You are not spiritually 'seeing' those "untimely figs" of Rev.6:13. An untimely fig is about the real winter fig that grows in the winter and falls off in the spring. That is a spiritual metaphor for the coming of the false-Christ. He comes first, working supernatural miracles playing Christ. He is represented by that "untimely fig" idea, an EARLY fig. The symbolic harvest time that Jesus said is SUMMER, not winter or spring.

Luke 21:30-31
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
KJV

Thanks for helping with this metaphor. I believe that the reign of AC will have just ended at the time of Rev 6:13. Could this metaphor represent Israel throwing off the reign of AC?

The falling away is hard-linked to the time of the false-Messiah's appearing and the deceived being fooled by him, which is what the "strong delusion" Paul mentions later is about. People deceived today is only leading up to that future tribulation time of their deception of bowing to that false-Christ. And that pseudo-Christ has not yet come today, and certainly is not... a pope. That "man of sin" is to appear as a false-Christ in Jerusalem for the end, not Rome. Paul in 2 Thess.2 was warning what Jesus was warning in Matt.24:23-26 about that pseudo-Christ for the end of this world.

Gen 15:16 "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."
When the Amorites sin became full, the Israelites arrived. The Amorites did not finish sinning when Israel arrived. They bore the greatest punishment for their sins at that time.
2 Thes 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Just as Israel could not enter the promised land until the sin of the Amorites was complete, I believe the falling away is a process that will have to reach a certain point before AC can be revealed. That is when the greatest punishment for the falling away will occur.

It is not about America or Europe. It is about the coming false-Messiah as head over all nations from Jerusalem, not Rome.


Jesus will come and go between heaven and earth in that future time, which is shown in the latter Ezekiel chapters.

He is there, but I don't see him coming and going.

Jesus will not deliver up the kingdom to The Father until after the future "thousand years" reign.

I agree.

That future reign with His elect is over all His enemies that are left, the unsaved nations of Rev.20.

Didn't you just argue that all mortals would be wiped out when Jesus returns?

The Father does not return to earth for that reign, which Paul also explains in those 1 Cor.15 verses.

I don't think the Father stays, but the throne of God is described in the Revelation in the same way it was for the Exodus.
Ex 19:16-18
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

That's really just speculation, because Egypt and Assyria could be in the list instead of what you have for no.4 and no.5. The 6th beast king was emperor Domitian of Rome in Apostle John's day while prisoner on the Isle of Patmos. The early Church fathers said John was released after Domitian died, and that John went to Ephesus and lived there.

Most people start with Egypt and Assyria, but Daniel starts with Babylon and lists all of the kingdoms.

The 7th beast king will be the final Antichrist for the coming time of "great tribulation", a pseudo-Christ with power to work great signs, wonders, and miracles on earth that will deceive the whole world (except Christ's elect).

How is the 70th week (7 years) of Daniel compatible with only a 42 month rule of antichrist.

The 8th beast king will be when Satan is loosed out of his pit prison after Christ's future "thousand years" reign per Rev.20. Satan will tempt the nations one last time, and then be destroyed in the "lake of fire".

I have never considered this possibility. Thanks.

The "crowns" are not defined by Rome. The beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 back when Satan first rebelled against God, drawing a third of the angels to earth, had ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns. And Rome did not even exist back then. So your Romish doctrines of men really do not work.

The crowns are transferred from the heads during the time that the 10 kings are reigning. When the crowns are on the heads, authority rests upon them. That is all past. In the future, the 10 will have authority and that is why the crowns shift. I believe celestial signs also accompany these times.

 

[Davy]

I agree that God's wrath begins with the 1st Vial and that God's final wrath will be on the 7th Vial. The beast v God's 2 witnesses is the time known as the great tribulation which occurs before the 1st Vial.

If the time of God's "two witnesses" prophesying on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe is "great tribulation" timing (which it is), and Jesus' coming is on the next 7th Trumpet - final 3rd Woe, which it is, then how... can the Vials of God's wrath not have yet started?

 

[Davy]

Verse 23. Christians will be resurrected/raptured at Christ's second coming. We will reign with Jesus over mortals still on earth.

Paul's idea in 1 Cor.15 that "this mortal" must "put on immortality" isn't about flesh. It's about the mortal SOUL. The souls of the unsaved after Christ's return will still be in a 'liable to die' condition at the "second death". They too will put on the "spiritual body" on the day of Jesus' return, because the "spiritual body" is... the body type of that future world, not flesh. There won't be any literal raising of flesh bodies at the resurrection, for that idea is just an expression. And the fact that there will also be a "resurrection of damnation" should be a strong clue about the unsaved being in spirit bodies in that future time also, yet still subject to the "second death".

This is why Apostle Paul showed to have eternal Life through Jesus Christ one must go through TWO conditions, not just one, corruption (flesh) must put on incorruption (spirit body), AND "this mortal" (soul) must "put on immortality" (deathlessness in Christ Jesus). Only those of the "first resurrection" and those "caught up" to Christ will go through 'both' changes at His coming.

 

[Davy]

Verses 24-25 Jesus reigns on earth for 1000 years according to Rev 20. At the end of the 1000 years, Jesus will have put down all opposition to his kingdom on earth. Nobody who belongs to Jesus will die after those 1000 years.
Satan will come upon earth after those 1000 years and the mortals on earth will be killed. Rev 20:8-9
Verse 26 After all mortals have been died, death itself will be destroyed. Those who had died are alive before God's throne in Rev 20:12 as death is destroyed in Rev 20:14.

Again, the idea of 'mortal' will only be about an unsaved 'soul', not a flesh body. God created us with 3 parts, not 2...

1. flesh and bones - the body of corruption (we put this off at flesh death, never need it again.)
2. spirit body - Paul's "spiritual body"; we all already have it living in our flesh body. Permanently connected with out soul.
3. soul = our real person. It is mortal and liable to perish unless made alive through Faith on Jesus Christ.

In the heavenly, no one has a flesh body. It is not possible for flesh to go there. Even when God's prophets were shown visions of the heavenly, that was via their 'spirit' inside their flesh body, and not via their flesh body. I find many of my Christian brethren that don't yet understand this, and are in a similar ignorance about the difference between flesh and spirit like Nicodemus was.

After Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect over the unsaved nations, then Satan will be released from his pit prison and go tempt those unsaved to come up against the "camp of the saints" on earth. They will be destroyed by God's fire from Heaven, and Satan cast into the "lake of fire"; and then the Books will be opened to see if any more names were written in the Book of Life. That means some names will be found written, and will thus become joined with Christ and His elect, and this is the inferred 2nd resurrection unto Life in Christ. Those not written will then be cast into the "lake of fire", along with the abode of hell and death. Only after that will the new heavens and a new earth time come.

 

[Davy]

If mortals were not on earth during the 1000 years, Satan would have nobody to deceive and death would be under Jesus' feet at the start of the 1000 years, not at the end of those years.

That idea is nowhere written in God's Word.

The "second death" of Rev.20 is not a death unto the flesh. Satan and his angels, which are already judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire, do not have flesh bodies, nor will they ever have, for that idea is nowhere written or even hinted at in God's Word.

 

[Davy]

The "Day of the Lord" refers to more than a single time. For example, the Day of the Lord also referred to the time of King Nebuchadnezzar.

In reality, the "day of the Lord" in Jeremiah's day is only being used as "ensamples" for the very end of this world like Apostles Paul and Peter showed. Apostle Paul revealed in 1 Corinthians 10:11 that many Old Testament events serve as "ensamples" for us upon whom the ends of the world have come.

Just as the title of Babylon is used about the final beast kingdom for the end of this world, and even the same words about Babylon's fall that was used in Isaiah 21, God uses previous Old Testament events an "ensamples" for us in the last days. Bible study on this level is part of the "strong meat" idea of Apostle Paul in Hebrews 5, which only comes with maturity through study of God's Word, as a "workman" like Paul said.

 

[Davy]

1 Thes 5:2-3 is a time of the heathen. Israel will enter a time of peace in Daniel's 70th week. However, after 3.5 years, sudden destruction from AC will come upon them. This Day of the Lord refers to the period of great tribulation.

The 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 period is about both the time immediately prior to the "day of the Lord", and then the very last day which will be the "day of the Lord". Can't really combine those two events together like you're trying to do.

In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial, Lord Jesus says He comes "as a thief". Apostle Paul and Peter both said the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". So all 3 of those Scripture declarations are about the exact same day and event when Jesus comes in the clouds. And that will be the 'day' when that "sudden destruction" upon the wicked will occur, and not before, timing with 2 Peter 3:10.

But just prior... to that 'day' ("day of the Lord"), the deceived and wicked will be saying, "Peace and safety". That is about Satan's coming one-world beast kingdom over the entire earth for the "great tribulation"timing. The majority of the world will be deceived by Satan coming to work great signs and wonders and miracles as God, and will believe a time of world Peace and Saftey will have come on earth. That idea is even revealed in the following during the time of God's "two witnesses" when they are killed...

Rev 11:8-10
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
KJV

The deceived world rejoicing over the dead bodies of God's "two witnesses", because the world was tormented by them, and the deceived making 'merry' (parties), sending gifts to one another, is about their putting their trust in false-Messiah and his one-world beast kingdom, which will preach prosperity for everyone that will bow in worship to him as God.

Then... after that, on the LAST DAY of this world, is when that "sudden destruction" of 1 Thess.5:3 will come upon 'them'. And is the day of Christ's future coming, and also what God's prophets like Isaiah warned what God is going to do on that day, with that coming 'at an instant, suddenly'.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Rev 11 does give details about what happens in Rev 9 because Rev 9, 10 and 11 are all inclusive in the 2nd woe. When the army of AC moves from the Euphrates River to Jerusalem, the 3.5-year countdown begins.

Nor really, Rev. 11 is just presenting the 1260 days of the Two-witnesses ministry. That's why when its says the 3rd woe comes quickly, it implies that the Two-witnesses job was completed when they prayed down the 7 Vials/3rd Woe, they die at the 2nd woe, but we ae told what their prayers will bring, Victory by Jesus. The Euphrates River is merely a metaphor. God dries up his Plagues which allows men to gather at Armageddon, if His plagues were still ongoing, no one would dare get out of their hiding places.

I also agree that Rev 16 is another description of the 3rd woe, 7th trump.

Yes, they all emit from the 7th Trump, that is why the 7 Trumps are God's complete wrath (7 = Divine Completion). The Seals just unbind the scroll of Judgments, and Jesus is merely foretelling what the seven Trumps will bring.

Rev 8:2 plus Rev 8:6-11:19 are a complete chronology that ends when Jesus arrives.

No, that is the "middle of the week" Asteroid Impact (1260 event). All Four Trumps are ONE EVENT, the Fire burns the trees as the asteroid "tries" to break apart in Trump #1. Then in Trump #2 we see the Impact. Then in Trump #3 we see the FALLOUT (Wormwood/Poisonous fallout. Finally Trump #4 FULFILLS both Joel 2:31 and the 6th Seal Prophecy by Jesus. Rev. 11 is about the Two-witnesses Ministry, it starts 75 days before the Asteroid hits in Rev. 8 (1335 blessing)

Rev 15:1-Rev 16:21 is a separate chronology that ends when Jesus arrives.

Rev. 15 is the Angels readying the 7 Vials, Rev. 16 is the 7 Vials being poured out.

The only disagreement we have here is that Rev 8, verses 1, 3, 4, and 5 all belong to a chronology that goes from Rev 7:1-8:5. Jesus comes at the time of Rev 8:5.

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 is a continuum of 42 months in a row, of God's Wrath. Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea just before the Wrath. Read the texts carefully, HOLD UP the FOUR WINDS (Judgments) until we have SEALED the 144,000 (Code for 5 million Jews or 1/3 as Zech. 13:8-9 says). So, that is God saying the wrath(Rev. 8 Asteroid) will not fall until the Jews have repented and fled Judea into the Petra/Bozrah area.

Jesus shows up at Rev. 16:9 the 7th Vial.

This is the difference between us, God declares VICTORY before the 7 vials are poured out, not when Jesus returns.

The book of Rev. is not in Chronological Order !! The Two-witnesses Ministry is OVER when they die, the book is finished, but we are told their job (praying down God's wrath as a conduit, like Moses brought the 10 plagues for VISUAL EFFECTS) is finished, but that their last prayer will bring VICTORY. What you are missing is the Parenthetical Citation Chapters. The Two-witnesses (Rev. 11) The 7 Thunders (7 Trumps). The Harvest Chapter (Rev. 14) God then gives about 5 chapters that cover the EXACT SAME TIME PERIOD as chapters 8, 9 and 16 (42 months of continuous wrath). The are evident, Rev. 12 the Dragon chases the woman for 1260 days. Rev. 12 the Beast rules for 1260 days. Rev. 17 the Harlot (All False Religion) is killed off by the 10 kings (complete E.U.) and thats because the Beast demands to be worshiped as the only god of course. Rev. 18 is Babylon (WHOLE WORLD) being judged by God's wrath over a 42 month period.

Rev 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Yes, this tells the 7 Trumps brings ALL of God's Wrath.

Rev 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
The kingdoms of the world are transferred from AC to God before God pours out his wrath on AC during the 75 days. The reign of AC ends with the 2nd woe even though AC is still alive.

This is telling us that over the last 75 days, victory will be had, EVENTUALLY....as Rev. 16 unfolds.

I agree with this.

I don't agree with this.

I do agree with this.

Simple math means they all have to be correct or wrong. The Two-witnesses have to show up BEFORE the A.C. becomes the Beast. Yes, he's already the President of the E.U. and makes the Agreement, but I am speaking about his 1260mday office as THE BEAST. We have to juxtapose their two timelines.

I believe the 2 witnesses/144,000 will begin their 1260 day ministry by entering the open doors of Jewish families and sitting at the empty plate set for Elijah on the evening of Passover. On the following morning, Jewish animal sacrifice of the Lamb on the temple mount will cease, the AoD will be seen, and the Jewish families who just received the testimony of the 2 witnesses will flee on that very day. This is the day that the beast begins his 42-month reign over Israel.

They are not going to offer up profane meat sacrifice, that would be a mockery of Jesus death. When the angel and Jesus is talking about TAKING AWAY the Sacrifice, its speaking about Jesus Worship.

Mal 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers,...

Elijah comes 1260 + 75 days before Rev 6:17. "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

You have the CONCEPT RIGHT, he comes before the DOTL, but its only 75 days before the Middle of the week or the Asteroid Impact (Wrath falls) and that Wrath IS NOT the 6th Seal, is the First Four Trumps, and carries on though Trumps 5,6 and 7 or Woes 1, 2 and 3. The Seals are PROPHETIC in nature, just like Joel 2:31 FORETELLS the coming DOTL, so does Seal #6. A closet door with 7 locks CAN NOT BE OPENED by taking off 6 locks can it? Thats why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8

The difference between our countdowns lies entirely on what we believe about Rev 10:7. How do you interpret this verse?

Not really, the 7 Thunders are the 7 Trumps, you just do not grasp that. A Parenthetical Chapter.

That seems like a stretch to me. If the AC reigns over Europe and Israel at the start of the 70th week, how is it that he reigns for 42 months?

Because these Beasts were only Beasts in Juxtaposition to Israel. The bible is about Israel. The British Empire rule a 3/4 of the world, they were not a Beast because they were not over Israel. The Ottoman Empire was not a Beast. Only when the A.C. and E.U. go forth Conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region will they become the Beast. God will not let him go forth until the Rev. 8 asteroid impact. That is what the 1st Seal FORETELLS, but it starts in Rev. 8.

 

[Davy]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. What 2nd Peter shows is the total annihilation of what God created. The only time that God's current creation goes away is Rev 21:1.

That's not really what God's Word as written reveals; that is only a Pop tradition of men about 2 Peter 3.

As I have shown (in other threads), per Romans 8:18-25, Apostle Paul revealed that God placed today's creation in a state of vanity, in bondage to corruption, and even the whole creation seeks a release from it, along with the manifestation of the sons of God (i.e., the future world).

God declared in Jeremiah 4:23-28 His doing what Paul said, and used the "without form, and void" (Hebrew tohu va bohu) expression for the time when He brought a destruction upon the ancient earth, causing the earth to tremble even, and for that reason today's creation mourns.

Thus the Genesis 1:1 verse is about God's ORIGINAL FIRST PERFECT CREATION, prior... to Lucifer's rebellion against Him. But at Genesis 1:2, the earth is laying in a condition of a waste and undistinguishable ruin (the real meaning of "without form, and void" per Jeremiah 4:23-28).

And that previous destruction when Lucifer first rebelled, Apostle Peter is also covering in 2 Peter 3, and even says many are "willingly ignorant" of it.

 

[Davy]

Why do you limit the fire in 2 Peter 3 to works? Why is hades not emptied until after the millennium, after Satan is released?

What does that 2 Peter 3:10 Scripture say?

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

If you are thinking that word "elements" there in Greek means the atomic weight elements of the earth, you'd be mistaken. The Greek word is put for an 'order', a 'world time' on earth...

NT:4747
stoicheion (stoy-khi'-on); neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of NT:4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):
KJV - element, principle, rudiment.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Furthermore, it should be very easy to figure out per Bible prophecy about the future that the 'earth' will still exist for Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, and thereafter. What's the difference then? Simple. Man's works for this present world will be destroyed off the surface of this earth, just as was done with the flood of water before, just this next time it will be by God's consuming fire. (See Rev.20:8-9 about the earth)

Then see Rev.20:11 which is for AFTER Christ's "thousand years" reign.

 

[Davy]

Dan 2
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Who are the kings of verse 44?

Did you really... read that, "... they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."? Did you really read that as written?

They are about the following coming event for the end, which Satan's host try to say already happened...

Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

 

[Davy]

The Pope is trying to unite religions. I could see Chrislam, a unity of Christianity and Islam and its leaders as the false prophet more than AC. I had to delete some of what you said to post.

Not just the pope is doing that, Satan's world controllers operating behind the scenes are doing that, those we don't ever hear about or see in public. The pope and nation's leaders are merely puppets to bring the whole world under Lucifer and his future one-world beast kingdom and one-world religion. It is they that will setup Lucifer as king here on this earth, in plain sight, in Jerusalem for the end.

When Apostle Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 about the "man of sin" exalting himself as God, AND OVER ALL THAT 'CALLED' GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPED, that was meant literally what the coming false-Messiah in Jerusalem will do for the end of this world.

Think about that, just how many of the world's religions, or even methods of worship, would that cover? ALL... of them, in one boat. So we were warned of this movement long, long ago, even by Apostle Paul.

 

[Davy]

If that was true, we couldn't make any sense out of the Bible. Timelines do have gaps, but they are always in order.

Only once you have done your homework in the Old Testament prophets will you begin to grasp what I said about the order of events in Christ's Revelation. The Seals of Revelation 6, even there with the rider on the white horse many think is the 1st Seal, that rider is about the coming false-Messiah for the end coming to play Jesus Christ. That's not the very first event that will happen at the End though. It is simply the 1st SIGN Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, to not allow any man to deceive us.

The coming false-Messiah does not arrive until the first part of the 6th Seal, and the 6th Trumpet. Jesus put the last 3 Trumpets in direct order, because that's what the 3 Woes do. That reveals He definitely did not want us to get those out of order.

 

[Davy]

Thanks for helping with this metaphor. I believe that the reign of AC will have just ended at the time of Rev 6:13. Could this metaphor represent Israel throwing off the reign of AC?

The Rev.6:13 verse reveals that it is tribulation timing. Rev.6:14 forward represents the last day, with Christ's return to end the tribulation.

It will require Lord Jesus' coming to defeat Satan's beast system over the earth. The majority of unbelieving Jews will remain in unbelief all the way up to the time of Christ's future coming. And then when they 'see' Him, that is when their spiritual stupor God put upon them, will be removed. Zechariah 12 shows they will then mourn for Him.

 

[Davy]

He is there, but I don't see him coming and going.

Ezek 44:1-3
44 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.

2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
KJV

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Isn't Jesus worship being forbidden represented by the removal of the Lamb sacrifice? "You have to be able to understand God speak."

Israel repents 75 days(1335) before the Beast conquers them at the 1260 events, as we speak Israel allows anyone to worship Jesus. But 45 days later, at the 1290, a certain Jewish High Priest in cahoots with the E.U. President, whom I think Israel is by then a member of, will tell the False Prophet fake Jewish High Priest to stop letting the new Jewish Converts to worship Jesus, he thus puts out an edict that worshipping Jesus is against the law, that the same thing Antiochus and Jason(evil Jewish High Priest) did 2200 years ago. Jesus is NOT TALKING about a Profane Meat Sacrifice, he's telling us when the 1/3 of the Jews repent the right to worship Jesus will be taken away or forbidden by law. Jesus is THE SACRICE at this point in time which God was pointing unto. Psstt, if it was a MEAT SACRICE, putting up an AoD would not defile the temple, because until Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah, its still DEFILED, God rent the temple, He left, only when they repent will God return. You can not defile that which remains defiled.

How does the AC transition from EU President to The Beast?

y conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Region, read Dan. 11:40-43, every move he makes can be seen right there. He NEVER conquers the whole world.

I have addressed our differences in the 2-witness timeline.

I can't find support for the CODE you mention involving the 144,000, God SHOUTING, ALL Israel, God's Wrath via the Asteroid Impact, the DO NOTHING seals, or how the 7th Seal opens the Scrolled Trumpet Judgments.

Of course you can find evidence, the bible says 1/3 repent, there are 15 million Jews, where do you get 144,000 from? Do you think God CHOSES PERFECT NUMBERS to be saved? The 10 Virgins which represent 2 Billion Christians (10 = COMPLETION) is all the proof you need. So, you will admit the 10 virgins = the complete Church but you have no concept about 10 (Completion) x 12 (Fulness) come on !!

The Asteroid Impact is the easiest of them all. Good grief man. A scientist who is not a believer told his friend who had the vision, you are looking at Rev. 8 all wrong, tat FOUR PHASES of one Asteroid Impact. As per the Seals, so you understand Joel 2:31 is a Prophecy but don't allow for the 6th Seal to be a prophecy. All because you were taught it that way, as I was. I overcome the men's traditions.

He has to come to power in Seleucia. I just learned that Trump is planning to make Syria a "safe zone."

No, he has to be born in Greece (Dan. 8:9 and arise to power in the 10 (E.U.) which fulfills Dan. 7:7-8. He also has to have Assyrian blood. He's not from Syria, Assyria was centered in Northern Iraq and Southern Turkey with a bit of Syria in play. His family will migrate from Turkey, he might have Iraqi blood or Turkish blood, both are of old Assyria.

Are you making the point that the 10 Plagues lasted for some complete age? I think 10 means 10.

No, God uses the number 10 for COMPLETION. There were only 4000 Hebrew words, we have over 500,000 English words, God used numbers. The 10 plagues was God's COMPLETE WRATH against Egypt. The 10 Virgin brides represent the complete church. The 7 Heads and 10 Horns = God's Divine and Complete Judgment.

What is the 8th in Rev 17:11?

Its a Demon named Apollyon. He was cast into the bottomless pit when Israel fell or when Rome ceased being a Beast. NOTICE: The Rev. 12 Beast (Satan) has 7 CROWNS on the 7 Heads which like Luke 4 proves he's over every kingdom on this earth, as he told Jesus. In Rev. 13 the Anti-Christ/Beast can only be over the 10 kings (E.U. in full) because hes a Human, he was not around for the other 6, but he is the 7th Head and is thus is under Satan the Dragon who gives him his SEAT & POWER. But notice in Reb. 17, the Scarlet Colored Beast has NO CROWNS on the 7 Heads or 10 Horns, that is because in the Spiritual realm he is under Satan on earth, and e not a human so he can't be a human king of course.

But here is the great riddle, he is of the 7 (thus he can only be a Demon) but is an 8th [king] So, how can this be? Well, Satan placed him over the Mediterranean Sea Region, he was over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia (He was the demon who resisted Michael for 21 days imho), Greece and Rome, then he was placed in the pit for the duration of the Church Age. He will be released at the 1st Woe, and thus he will then be over the Anti-Christ, but Satan is still HIS BOSS on earth, BUT.........he is the King of the Bottomless Pit. Thus he was of the Seven, AND IS AN 8TH [King].

Are you referring to the TWO ARMS of Media and Persia that formed into 1 beast?

Rome was not a Beast over Israel after Israel were toted off. The Beast suffered a Mortal Wound.

The one beast is shown as the one statue in Dan 2. This one statue is comprised of 4 kingdoms. The 4 kingdoms are comprised of 7 Heads. The 7th Head is comprised of 10 horns. This is true for Daniel and Revelation. See my chart at the end.

Daniel only told of the Beasts from his time going forward, he mentions 5 Beasts if one reads Dan. 7 properly, he tells if a MAN being different from the FIRST BEAST in Dan. 7:23-25. He calls the Beast HE. Daniel says HE is different from the First (Rome) Beast.]

The answer is found in Rev 14. Verses 1-5 show the firstfruits of the resurrection/rapture at the end of the great tribulation.

You are missing it, each Harvest has a First-fruit. The Wheat = Israel, we the Church are the Barley first fruits. The Wheat grows together with the tares until the end (Jesus' return) they are already married unto God, we go to Heaven to marry the Lamb. Notice in Rev. 14 the Three Harvests, the 144,000 (5 million Jews MEN & WOMEN) who are with Jesus for the 1000 year reign. Then we see the Wicked Grapes who are placed in the wine-press of God's wrath and lastly in vs. 14 we get the worlds first FLASHBACK to the pre trib rapture.

Verses 6-13 show the time after the great tribulation, the 75 days of God's wrath. God's saints still die during this period of time. Verses 14-16 show Jesus' return and the resurrection/rapture. Verses 17-20 show the last part of God's wrath.

During the 75 days of God's wrath, Christians are still being killed, but heaven is closed. That is why there are 2 groups of people in Rev 20:4.
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: (Group 1: Adam through the 2 witnesses are included plus the great multitude of Rev 7.) and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Group 2: This group is entirely those who die during the 75-day period of God's wrath.)

The Wrath is 1260 days. Rev. 14 all happens during the 70th week.

Our bones are resting in the ground, but our spirits are alive with Christ in heaven. At the resurrection/rapture our bones and spirits will be united.

Then explain why the Dead need to be Resurrected. Its Men's TRADITION and guys just can't get past it.

 

[Davy]

Didn't you just argue that all mortals would be wiped out when Jesus returns?

No, I didn't.
That idea is actually a false idea of Amillennialists who do not believe the written "thousand years" of Rev.20 is actual. So they believe all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's return, which of course that idea is not written in God's Word..

 

[Davy]

How is the 70th week (7 years) of Daniel compatible with only a 42 month rule of antichrist.

Per Daniel 9:27, the coming false-Christ will end the daily sacrifice and place the abomination idol inside the temple for worship, just as Antiochus IV did as a blueprint for the final Antichrist. The Dan.9:27 verse says the placing of the idol will happen in the "middle" of that 7 years symbolic "one week".

So what do you get when you half a period of 7 years? You get two 1260 day periods.

The second 1260 day period begins once the Antichrist sets up the abomination idol in Jerusalem. And that 1260 day period is shown in Rev.11 to also be the 42 months period of false-Messiah's reign on earth.

The Daniel 11 events about the "vile person" is the next part, because that prophecy of what the "vile person" does is about the final Antichrist, showing he will come to power as king in Jerusalem via a small group of supporters, and he will do that using peace and flatteries. It then reveals the old covenant sacrifices having started up again, and the existence of a Jewish stone temple for that old covenant worship. And the Dan.11 Scripture says he will be against that holy covenant (old covenant worship), and will end the sacrifices and place that abomination idol of Dan.9:27.

Because Lord Jesus quoted the placing of that abomination idol for the END by the final Antichrist, that means today's Jews will build a 3rd stone temple in Jerusalem, and start up old covenant worship again (meaning Orthodox unbelieving Jews that still reject Jesus Christ). It is probable that the coming Antichrist-false-Messiah might arrive for the first 1260 day period to establish that building of the new temple.