A Challenge

[Jack]

My observation is that there are plenty who study what God said....in fact, Colleges who process thousands are dedicated to doing this very thing yet relatively few actually understand in spite of much debate being engaged.

It appears to me the many religious leaders in Jesus time had the same affliction. The go-to was blame in some form or other; the sick strategy of pushing others down to elevate themselves.....oblivious that this is what they are doing.
What to do? Jesus said, 'leave them, they are blind guides....'

IOW, your faith is in colleges, not the Bible! No wonder you rejected Jesus, Moses, Peter, Matthew, Luke, etc.

 

[ScottA]

2. 1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 5:10 teaches that THOUGH SAVED, eternal rewards/loss will be based on the post-saved life of the believer.

These passages (above) do not teach that salvation can be lost. But rather that for the saved, works are either gain or loss to the purpose of the gospel--of good service or a disservice to God. And for the unsaved, their works will reveal them.

 

[ScottA]

3. 1 Cor 5:1-5, 1 Cor 11:27-30 warns of the possible consequences of excess post-saved sin.

1 Cor 5:1-5 does not speak of those saved, but rather of those who are not yet repentant and in need of more tribulations under the reign of Satan, that if they are ever to turn away from their sin and be saved, they eventually will turn from it and declare it before God that He might save them.

1 Cor 11:27-30 speaks of "not discerning the Lord’s body"--which is to say, as on not having Christ in them and them not in the body of Christ--as one not saved.

 

[Brakelite]

That's not quite what Scripture tells us! It's true that the blood of Christ has made atonement for ALL sin without exception! However, the atonement made through the blood of Christ is not automatically imputed to ALL without exception! For man to receive the gift of eternal life and be spared being cast into the lake of fire that is the second death, "Ye must be born again"!

Since Scripture indicates that all who are cast into the lake of fire to experience the second death .... what is never ending, is it pain and suffering associated with being cast into the eternal flames, or is it DEATH itself?

Not sure where to got the ideai was claiming everyone would be saved. Perhaps an unwise choice of words. All the above quote I agree with. Regarding what is eternal... The Scripture says punishment is eternal. It does not say punishing is eternal. Therefore what is eternal must be death.

 

[Brakelite]

you don't know the easy answers to these questions???

I know the true answers, and I reject any that suggest
A. That Jesus went to hell and suffered in eternal flames forever or
B. That sinners go to hell and suffer forever or
C. That the wages of sin is eternal torment or
D. That death isn't death, but is in fact eternal life in a really really bad neighborhood.

 

[Brakelite]

Damned if I know.

Seriously, “Damnationism” is better known as “Eternal Conscious Torment”.

Aaaaaaahhhhh, thank you. Now I understand the difference.

 

[Brakelite]

To be a living soul is to be alive. This life can be eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us, and it is also physical life that gives life to flesh, through spirit that became a living soul. The flesh dies, and if the man of flesh was indwelt with the Holy Spirit, the spirit of man through the Holy Spirit ascends to heaven alive; a living soul. But the man who dies in unbelief is said to be in silence and darkness in the grave, no longer a living soul because the natural man has not the Spirit of Christ for eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You've touched on the very concept that gave birth to the present controversy over eternal torment. A lie from Satan himself that declared to Eve, that her sin would not result in her death. That was the genesis for the entire pagan religion that has endured to this day. It's principle doctrine? The natural immortality of the soul.

 

[Moontan13]

Thanks for your thoughts M13.
Where do you believe Paul teaches that a Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 sealed/saved believer can become unsaved ?

FWIW, I believe salvation is permanent. I was raised in a where it was taught it is permanent. I could probably find some scripture that supports the other side. When I needed him, he answered.

 

[David in NJ]

I know the true answers, and I reject any that suggest
A. That Jesus went to hell and suffered in eternal flames forever or
B. That sinners go to hell and suffer forever or
C. That the wages of sin is eternal torment or
D. That death isn't death, but is in fact eternal life in a really really bad neighborhood.

A. - JESUS never suffered in Hell = but HE did go down there to Preach the Gospel to the captives
B. - Mark 9:42-48
C. - Revelation 14:9-11
D. - Matthew 25:41-43

 

[Brakelite]

A. - JESUS never suffered in Hell = but HE did go down there to Preach the Gospel to the captives

The proper interpretation is that the Lord did indeed preach to those sinners who are now dead, but He did so when they were alive and had the ability to hear with their ears and repent. And the Lord accomplished that through His prophet, Noah, a "preacher of righteousness" , but we all know how many listened.

“18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also (the Holy Spirit) he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (prison of sin) 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. ”
1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV

B. - Mark 9:42-48

Think carefully about what it actually says. The fire shall never be quenched. Right? In other words, no-one it anything, can put it out. What it doesn't say is that it won't go out of its own accord once the fuel is spent. Just like a normal fire.

C. - Revelation 14:9-11

Smoke (and ashes...see Malachi) is always the last vestige of any fire long after the fire itself has gone out. There is nothing in those texts to suggest the torment never stops, or those suffering never die at the end of it.

D. - Matthew 25:41-43

Note...“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ”
Matthew 25:46 KJV
...that it says eternal punishment. That punishment, echoed throughout Scripture, is death. Not punishing as continuing action.

 

[rvmb]

FWIW, I believe salvation is permanent. I was raised in a where it was taught it is permanent. I could probably find some scripture that supports the other side. When I needed him, he answered.

"""FWIW, I believe salvation is permanent.""""
I'm unaware of anything that Paul teaches to the contrary.
"" I could probably find some scripture..."
From the other Apostles which apply to a different age/audience.
eg Take the Mark = salvation lost

 

[David in NJ]

The proper interpretation is that the Lord did indeed preach to those sinners who are now dead, but He did so when they were alive and had the ability to hear with their ears and repent. And the Lord accomplished that through His prophet, Noah, a "preacher of righteousness" , but we all know how many listened.

“18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also (the Holy Spirit) he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (prison of sin) 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. ”
1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV


Think carefully about what it actually says. The fire shall never be quenched. Right? In other words, no-one it anything, can put it out. What it doesn't say is that it won't go out of its own accord once the fuel is spent. Just like a normal fire.

Smoke (and ashes...see Malachi) is always the last vestige of any fire long after the fire itself has gone out. There is nothing in those texts to suggest the torment never stops, or those suffering never die at the end of it.

Note...“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ”
Matthew 25:46 KJV
...that it says eternal punishment. That punishment, echoed throughout Scripture, is death. Not punishing as continuing action.

physical death of the body is a one time event = Hebrews 9:27 = After death comes Judgment

eternal punishment is eternal death = Matthew 25:41-43

 

[Brakelite]

physical death of the body is a one time event = Hebrews 9:27 = After death comes Judgment

eternal punishment is eternal death = Matthew 25:41-43

Except you don't really mean that do you. You didn't think death is really death, but another lesser version of living. And you also, intentionally or not, accept Greek pagan philosophy by separating body soul, spirit, and giving them independent life forces. Do you understand the teaching of first mention? It means taking the first time a topic is broached in Scripture, for example human nature, and using that as a template for all teaching on that topic throughout the rest of Scripture. It works. It's a great way to stay true to Scripture without being stretched by extraneous sources that come to wrong conclusions. It works for sin, prophecy, the incarnation, everything. It's a method of staying consistent with Bible truth. I suggest you use that principle when studying human nature, starting with creation.

 

[David in NJ]

Except you don't really mean that do you. You didn't think death is really death, but another lesser version of living. And you also, intentionally or not, accept Greek pagan philosophy by separating body soul, spirit, and giving them independent life forces. Do you understand the teaching of first mention? It means taking the first time a topic is broached in Scripture, for example human nature, and using that as a template for all teaching on that topic throughout the rest of Scripture. It works. It's a great way to stay true to Scripture without being stretched by extraneous sources that come to wrong conclusions. It works for sin, prophecy, the incarnation, everything. It's a method of staying consistent with Bible truth. I suggest you use that principle when studying human nature, starting with creation.

What do you think of this Prophet who said this:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Was he speaking automorphically???

 

[Brakelite]

What do you think of this Prophet who said this:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Was he speaking automorphically???

It makes perfect sense when you consider how Jesus revealed the truth that the death of the body is sleep, and the soul (remember first mention) is not a part of the human being, but the totality of life. Body soul, Spirit.
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ”
Genesis 2:7 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Simple arithmetic.
Body created first... Given the breath of life, the Spirit...and many became a soul. When we speak of death, we speak of the whole being unconscious and unaware until he's awakened in the resurrection. Now the second death, that's destruction. End of everything.

 

[David in NJ]

When we speak of death, we speak of the whole being unconscious and unaware until he's awakened in the resurrection.

i thought you read the Gospel and most of the NT Bible???

Because your statement is totally unbiblical

 

[quietthinker]

i thought you read the Gospel and most of the NT Bible???

Because your statement is totally unbiblical

I'd say it's your misunderstanding of what the bible is saying, David

 

[HealthyShape]

I'd say it's your misunderstanding of what the bible is saying, David

Christ has won over death. When the tent of our body is folded, we have a dwelling in the heavens.

 

[quietthinker]

Christ has won over death. When the tent of our body is folded, we have a dwelling in the heavens.

then why the resurrection?

 

[HealthyShape]

then why the resurrection?

Yes, I do not know. I think we either got the bodily resurrection wrong or we are missing something about it.

The supposed future bodily resurrection is something I do not understand. Even on a technical level, it does not seem to make much sense. Our bodies dissolve and return to the cycle, our bodies are not individual regarding the elements, but shared, made of the bodies of others.