A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

Lord Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

 

[Kermos]

ironic that in Mat 22 Jesus and the scribe are talking about this very thing, the scibe, a Jew, says the Most High is one, Jesus agrees with that.
when a Jew says the Most High is one, they mean a non trinity one. Jews have never had a trinity.



the edited Rev passage, no one in their sound mind would present that for an argument. post like this make you look like you were planted by anti trins to make real trins look foolish

Fools ignore scripture such as Luke 1:26-33 that shows Jesus Christ is truly Man - the Son of Man, and Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, and John 10:30-31 that shows Jesus Christ is truly God - the Son of God - equal with God is being God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

THAT WHICH YOU CLAIM IS IN MATTHEW 22 IS NOT THERE, JUST LIKE YOUR FALSE JESUS BEING CREATED IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE!

YOU DO NOT KNOW THE WORD OF GOD, SO YOU ARE A VERY DANGEROUS SOURCE.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Geez...I thought you would have believed everything I said by now. I just don't understand why you don't....just kidding!

I believe the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14), so I believe the Word of God recorded in John 17:21-22, and God has me here Truthfully (John 14:6) explaining the passage to you.

As recorded in John 17:21, when Jesus says "that they also may be one in us", then Jesus linguistically distinguishes between the children of God and God being the person of the Father with the person of the Son with the person of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says "they also may be one" is the children of God.

Jesus says "us" is God.

Jesus used the word "in", not "with", but truly the word "in".

The word "in" represents containment; on the other hand, the word "with" represents inclusion.

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us", so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God!

But, as you noted, the accurate translation from Greek uses the word "in".

Truly, the Word of God says "that they also may be one in us" (John 17:21); therefore the children of God is distinguished as a group from the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) being the person of the Father with the person of the Son with the person of the Holy Spirit.

We are children of God are in God. We are not God. We are in God. Thus says the Son.

Names are significant, particularly with respect to spiritual matters.

Rich R, you misspelled God's Name, YHWH, in that prior response to me, and that same confusion of yours leads to your unbelief about Jesus being YHWH God, "I AM" (John 8:58, Exodus 3:14), such that this Word of God applies to you "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

You are a dangerously unreliable source!

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus was his Fathers image-Coll 1:15--He only spoke what the Father taught him to speak. He only did the Fathers will( John 5:30)--that is how they could see the Father. Yes he= the one sent sent forth by God= the Messiah.

Abraham was sent forth by the LORD
Moses was sent forth by the LORD
Elijah was sent forth by the LORD

JESUS the only begotten of the FATHER = No one else came from the FATHER = except the HOLY SPIRIT

the Gospel is FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT = no one else and not ONE less

Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me - Isaiah 43:10-11

 

[jaybird]

lol - what does john lennon have to do with Christ?

no one said he did.
and back to the discussion, Jews dont believe in the trinity, why do you guys not acknowledge that?

 

[jaybird]

You desperately try to change the Word of God such that "just as" becomes "and one and the same as" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God because you replace the sayings of the Word of God by way of your hearts treasure.

Let's look at the grammar of John 17:21-22, but the phrase "just as" needs to be examined because you all have such a profound problem with it's linguistical implication. Here is the example:

no i didnt change anything, thats what the bible says, remember the bible scripture i posted that said this verbaitum. its not like i am adding :

Jesus, is truly Almighty God

right into the middle of a Revelation passage, thats what desperate people would do. lucky for me i can post scripture without having to change them.

 

[jaybird]

Fools ignore scripture such as Luke 1:26-33 that shows Jesus Christ is truly Man - the Son of Man, and Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, and John 10:30-31 that shows Jesus Christ is truly God - the Son of God - equal with God is being God. . . . .

thats great, i will be happy to take on those bad interpretations as well. but first, lets go back to that Mat 22 passage that you ignored. did you have a response on that one or you just gonna bury your head in the sand and make believe it does not exist?

 

[David in NJ]

no one said he did.
and back to the discussion, Jews dont believe in the trinity, why do you guys not acknowledge that?

Elohim Son created all things, including all humans =see Post #1,004

The Pharisees/Jews therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”

Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

 

[jaybird]

Elohim Son created all things, including all humans =see Post #1,004

The Pharisees/Jews therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”

Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

ok?

and the Jews not believing in the trinity? were you just gonna remain silent on that issue? ignoring the problem in hopes that it goes away is not the wisest strategy.

 

[David in NJ]

ok?

and the Jews not believing in the trinity? were you just gonna remain silent on that issue? ignoring the problem in hopes that it goes away is not the wisest strategy.

You are in the exact place of those Jews right now = and it's not the place to be.

 

[Brakelite]

I wrote the following some 4 or 5 years ago, and thought it may be of interest...
So I have been reading through Ephesians when I came to this...
5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
I have always cherished those scriptures, having believed that with all of God's recommendations and commandments, comes the power to accomplish them, and I thank my heavenly Father for the love of my life, and for granting whatever was necessary to ensure our relationship grew despite the many ups and downs, ebbs and flows, of what will soon be 40 years of marriage.. But then I came across the following little gem, and am seeing this in a new light. The 'trinity' has for some time been for me a focus of study and attention. The several inconsistencies and contradictions between scripture and the creeds and 'fundamental beliefs' of the various churches which teach one or another form of trinitarian doctrine are often rooted in the rejection of a real literal Father/Son relationship between Jesus and God before the incarnation at Bethlehem. The lack of harmony between the presumed co-equalty of the 3 persons of the godhead and a literal Father/Son relationship, results in a metaphorical skewing of scripture that ultimately translates as a God who did not give His Son, but someone else. A co-partner, or whatever. So after reading the following, might I now suggest that here is empirical proof from Paul that the Father indeed did give His Son? That the Son left the Father's side in order to 'leave His eternal home' to become one with His bride, the church? "For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones....that they two may become one flesh". Did not Christ, the literal only begotten Son, truly leave His Father's side?
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[jaybird]

You are in the exact place of those Jews right now = and it's not the place to be.

really? ignorant and stubborn . . . .hmmm which one of us is asking questions, and which one of us is running from those questions?
your funny

 

[David in NJ]

really? ignorant and stubborn . . . .hmmm which one of us is asking questions, and which one of us is running from those questions?
your funny

Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?” = (you are here)

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

Where does the LORD say that we are to believe in a singular god here???

 

[David in NJ]

I wrote the following some 4 or 5 years ago, and thought it may be of interest...
So I have been reading through Ephesians when I came to this...
5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
I have always cherished those scriptures, having believed that with all of God's recommendations and commandments, comes the power to accomplish them, and I thank my heavenly Father for the love of my life, and for granting whatever was necessary to ensure our relationship grew despite the many ups and downs, ebbs and flows, of what will soon be 40 years of marriage.. But then I came across the following little gem, and am seeing this in a new light. The 'trinity' has for some time been for me a focus of study and attention. The several inconsistencies and contradictions between scripture and the creeds and 'fundamental beliefs' of the various churches which teach one or another form of trinitarian doctrine are often rooted in the rejection of a real literal Father/Son relationship between Jesus and God before the incarnation at Bethlehem. The lack of harmony between the presumed co-equalty of the 3 persons of the godhead and a literal Father/Son relationship, results in a metaphorical skewing of scripture that ultimately translates as a God who did not give His Son, but someone else. A co-partner, or whatever. So after reading the following, might I now suggest that here is empirical proof from Paul that the Father indeed did give His Son? That the Son left the Father's side in order to 'leave His eternal home' to become one with His bride, the church? "For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones....that they two may become one flesh". Did not Christ, the literal only begotten Son, truly leave His Father's side?
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

This is GREAT - i would seek that you make it perfect by saying the SON came directly from the bosom(Central BEING) of the FATHER = not His side.

There is a huge difference wherein, "came from His side" can still hold to a created Son.

Eve came from the "side" of Adam = Eve was Born from Adam's side = both Adam and Eve were created.
The SON was never created but, in fact, is the Creator = "ALL things were made by HIM and nothing that was made was made WITHOUT HIM."

The SON was not Born from the FATHER's side, for the SON is Eternal as the FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT are Eternal = ALL THREE are ECHAD/Unified ONE.

The WORD was GOD from the beginning.....the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us = IMMANUEL = Elohim(God) with us.

Messiah(Christ) born of a virgin according to Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah = the only begotten of the FATHER = FULL of GRACE & TRUTH

When the Eternal WORD became flesh = HE emptied HIMSELF of HIS Eternal Glory

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

 

[Rich R]

There is no other God but Me,
a righteous God and Savior;
there is none but Me.
Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;
for I am God,
and there is no other.

Excellent verses for sure! Thanks.

 

[Rich R]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

Lord Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

You are basing a doctrine on a few verses that could perhaps be taken in a Trinitarian way. But, they don't come out and say outright that Jesus is God, whereas I've shown a half dozen verses that specifically say he was a man (Acts 2:22 et. al.), whereas God is NOT a man (Hos 11:9, et. al.). I've also shown where Jesus had a God and a Father, the same as ours to be specific. I've shown where God knew things Jesus didn't know. I've shown that God and Jesus had two different wills. I've shown that Jesus was tempted, whereas God can not be tempted. I showed that Jesus increased in wisdom. I've shown that God is the head of Christ (aren't they supposed to be equal?). I've shown that Jesus will be subject to, or under, God. I've shown that God granted Jesus certain powers and privileges. I've shown where Jesus was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9). I've shown that Jesus did not preach his own doctrine, but that of the Father.

But that's not all; you'd also have to explain why God talks and prayers to Himself so often. You'd also have to explain how a descendant (seed) of men (Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, David) could be God. All of these clear verses would have to be made to fit with the "I AM" argument, or the "I AM" could be made to fit with the many clear verses. We certainly can't throw any of them away.

I might suggest you look at other usages of "ego eimi." A blind man used the same phrase. Is the blind man therefore also God? There are many other usages of "ego eimi." Be careful about jumping to conclusions just because Jesus said he was before Abraham. We were also chosen before Abraham (Eph 1:4). Could it be that, as I've said many times, the logos of John 1:1 was a plan God had in His mind from the beginning? Part of that plan was of course Jesus Christ, but it also includes us. We, like Jesus, were certainly in God's mind, but none of us existed until we were born, including Jesus. There are plenty of verses that say Jesus was born.

 

[David in NJ]

Excellent verses for sure! Thanks.

MISSION IMPOSSIBLE:
Your mission Rich, should you choose to accept it, is to Turn to the Only True Elohim who is the Savior, just as the Apostle John did in Revelation chapter 1.
Just as the Israelites did in the Wilderness when they were bitten by poisonous snakes.
Just as the Savior who spoke to Moses now speaks to us:
Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

 

[Rich R]

I believe the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14), so I believe the Word of God recorded in John 17:21-22, and God has me here Truthfully (John 14:6) explaining the passage to you.

As recorded in John 17:21, when Jesus says "that they also may be one in us", then Jesus linguistically distinguishes between the children of God and God being the person of the Father with the person of the Son with the person of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says "they also may be one" is the children of God.

Jesus says "us" is God.

Jesus used the word "in", not "with", but truly the word "in".

The word "in" represents containment; on the other hand, the word "with" represents inclusion.

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us", so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God!

Here's the actual text:

John 17:21-22,

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:​

I'm not sure why you attach so much importance to "with" vs "in." OK, perhaps I made a mistake. I'm now officially giving up my desperate attempt to change the Word of God. I admit the English word used is "in" and not "with." So, how does it change the truth that many people being called one are not actually one person? Having said that, I might point out the Greek word is "en" which is translated as "with" around 120 times.

I think you also obsess on the phrase "even as." The Greek word is "kathos" and it means "just as." If Jesus being one with God makes him to be God, then you and I are talking to our self, given we are actually one individual, "just as" Jesus and God are the same individual. I guess this doesn't make much sense, does it?

Rich R, you misspelled God's Name, YHWH, in that prior response to me, and that same confusion of yours leads to your unbelief about Jesus being YHWH God, "I AM" (John 8:58, Exodus 3:14), such that this Word of God applies to you "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

So I'm dead in sins because I misspelled YHWH? All I can say to that is that I'm glad you're not my judge!

1Cor 4:4,

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.​

 

[Rich R]

MISSION IMPOSSIBLE:
Your mission Rich, should you choose to accept it, is to Turn to the Only True Elohim who is the Savior, just as the Apostle John did in Revelation chapter 1.
Just as the Israelites did in the Wilderness when they were bitten by poisonous snakes.
Just as the Savior who spoke to Moses now speaks to us:
Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

I accepted the mission about 45 years ago. Been the best 45 years of my life!

 

[David in NJ]

I accepted the mission about 45 years ago. Been the best 45 years of my life!

Awesome - but your mission is not complete for HE desires for you to know Elohim TRUTH of Genesis going Forward.

Genesis is the Foundation of TRUTH, Beginning with the plurality of Elohim.
Genesis is the Foundation of the Gospel of Elohim.
Genesis vividly describes and pictures who the "Let Us/Our/Our IS = the Plurality of Elohim.