A Discussion About Truth

[Aunty Jane]

im mostly struck by the apparent contrast in your first Quote and your second; on the one hand they are castigated, and on the other we are called to be submissive to them. How do you reconcile these, someone will ask

Hmmmm....must have been something lost in translation. It was the Pharisees who were castigated and sentenced to “Gehenna” by Jesus.....he exposed them as the lying hypocrites that they were (Matthew 23)....no wonder they wanted him dead!

In first century Christianity those who ‘took the lead’ were brothers in good standing in the Christian congregation. These humble elders shepherded the flock of God in their care, but the warning Jesus and his apostles gave, was that Christianity would go the same way as Judaism did...and for the same reasons. (2 Thessalonians 2:1,3; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1-3, Acts 20:30) Men would take their leadership role as one of power rather than service, and would lead the church into apostasy....and that is exactly how history records what happened.

By the fourth century, “Christianity” was almost unrecognisable as the one Jesus has begun. Roman Catholicism became “the church” even though it was completely controlled by a pagan Roman emperor who declared the Roman Catholic Church as the “state religion”. No one had a choice but to submit to its authority as it became modelled after Judaism....with an earthly priesthood, wearing distinctive garb, and with grand ‘temples’ with awe inspiring architecture, and obviously feigned religious piety, the same as was displayed by the Pharisees.

Emperor Constantine’s motive was purely political as he was a worshipper of Zeus all his life. He needed to consolidate his divided empire and the only way to do that was to decree a religion that broadly catered to everyone....it was a clever blend of paganism with a thin veneer of “Christianity”....enough to fool the Christians, who were so weak in faith by this time that it was instituted with little protest. All the pagan aspects are still there, hidden in plain sight.

The RCC was the only “Christianity” in existence for centuries, becoming more and more corrupt and powerful as time went on.....never were they serving the interests of God or his Christ on earth, but rather, serving the interests of God’s adversary who created it as the “weeds” of Jesus parable. The shameful atrocities committed in the name of Christ will not go unpunished.

When Luther nailed his protests to the door of the church demanding that the unchristian practices cease, he was not trying to create a revolution, but sincerely wanted to stop the rot, which as a priest, and privy to the word of God, he knew was rife in the power-hungry men who dominated the so called “Christian” faith. But a revolution was about to begin and a Reformation brought out many who were so weary of being under the rule of such corruption and unchristian conduct. But Protestantism did not unite the church and bring it back to Christ....it simply divided it into literally thousands of bickering sects who all believed the men who spoke and convinced them to follow their lead. So here we are and most are still wondering where Jesus is in all that mess.....

So those who took the lead in the first century were under the authority of the apostles and as long as the apostles lived, there was a restraint to the apostasy that was already brewing. (2 Thessalonians 2:6-12)

Only in the “time of the end” would God separate out a people whom he would “cleanse, whiten and refine” (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) to carry out the work that Jesus foretold for these last days when Christ was to return and oversee the greatest and most far-reaching preaching campaign the world had ever seen. Rather than being confined to a relatively small area of the world, this “good news of the kingdom” was to be “preached in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations” before God brought an “end” to all that the devil had managed to create here on this planet. (Matthew 24:14)

We are staring down the barrel of the greatest tribulation in the history of mankind as part of “the sign” that Jesus gave to show that he was already here. (Matthew 24:3-14, 21) Jesus “parousia” (presence) precedes his “coming” as judge of all the earth. He is at present “separating the sheep from the goats” so that when that judgment day finally arrives, we will all have shown him who we really are. We will not be able to protest that he has judged us wrongly because he has observed every one of us through our life in this wicked world, (Matthew 7:21-23)......only his true disciples will be “no part” of it, as Jesus instructed. (John 17:16, John 18:36) That means being no part of anything that the devil set up.....that which is part of how he governs this world at present. (1 John 5:19)

We see all the vain attempts at choosing worthy world leaders who are all inept at changing anything because of who the puppet master is. Man will never accomplish only what God’s Kingdom will do. It is “coming” ready or not......as Daniel described in Daniel 2:44. We are living in “the days of those kings”.

 

[Brakelite]

i dont know what that word (epistemology) means, and i have to go look it up every time! lol

I have seen it now and again in the past, but didn't think it essential that I know what it means, so ignored it. My life did not turn to custard as a result of my ignorance. I think scholars make up words like this in order to make their bosses believe their investment in these studies are more worthwhile. So I did look it up this time. And lo and behold, all of a sudden the day is brighter, the air fresher, the birds chirpier, the toast tastier.

 

[Brakelite]

im mostly struck by the apparent contrast in your first Quote and your second; on the one hand they are castigated, and on the other we are called to be submissive to them. How do you reconcile these, someone will ask

And ironically it took another leader to expose the deception and hypocrisy of the false.

A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or trace all the chain of circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. Christ said to Nicodemus, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8. Like the wind, which is invisible, the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are noticeable. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the interests. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional not-so-good deeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts.—Steps To Christ - EGW

That's the 3rd time that exact quote has come up in the last fortnight. I searched (knowing a part of the quote) for it and used it in a bible study last Wednesday week, the Pastor used it in his sermon the following Sabbath, and now...it is for the above reason (in the quote) that we should never judge another as unsaved, or deny anyone's personal testimony.

 

[Wrangler]

Epistemology is about the limits and levels of knowledge. The 2nd branch of philosophy. Knowledge is different from opinion, feeling, intuition or instinct. A coworker asked me every day, “Whst do you know?”

This thread is about the 1st branch of philosophy, metaphysics. What is real or true?

The natural follow up question is, how do you know?

 

[Brakelite]

enough to fool the Christians, who were so weak in faith by this time that it was instituted with little protest.

A little protest in Rome perhaps, but much protest elsewhere.

The RCC was the only “Christianity” in existence for centuries

Only in those areas where Rome had jurisprudence, yet even on Rome's doorstep, there were 'heretics' (according to Rome) who were faityhful to scripture and sharing the gospel as best they could in the midst of Catholic persecutions against them. Christianity had spread as far as China and the Philipines in the east, and Britain in the west, well before Constantine rose to make the new faith official. There have been true Christians throughout history who have continued the testimony and have seen the errors of Rome and protested against them.

When Luther nailed his protests to the door of the church demanding that the unchristian practices cease

He was not the first, but certainly was the most noticeable.

 

[Brakelite]

This thread is about the 1st branch of philosophy, metaphysics. What is real or true?

The natural follow up question is, how do you know?

The fallen angels have intimate knowledge of what is truth, and what isn't. Ain't gonna help them. So while Truth is essential, there necessitates a deeper experience.

 

[Wrangler]

Truth is the foundation upon which to build.

Given what is true, now what? It is a call to action. The ancients knew this. Todays generation fails to grasp when Scripture talks about knowing, it means to act accordingly.

Our parents asked, did you hear me? What they meant is, are you going to act based on what you were told.

Today’s generation is overwhelmed with data to the point they’ve lost discernment of what is actionable and a sense of priorities. It’s not about “processing” more data all the time. It’s about living abundantly based on what is true.

 

[Aunty Jane]

As usual, my responses are quite detailed so I will break this up....I am so not good at condensing things...but then I remember that the Bible doesn’t do that either or else it would be a lot thinner than it is.....

So here goes......

It is a strange paradox to me that while I view religious liberty as paramount, being a large part of what the Sacrifice of Calvary offers, I do still believe wholeheartedly that we should, if drawing closer to Jesus in allowing Him to change our "mind," also be coming closer to each other in "mind" and purpose.

That is a nice thought, but it is not what the Bible tells us is the reality of the times in which we live.
This is a time for division. Jesus alluded to this as the choice to become one of his own, carried with it a challenge....
“Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:34-37)

Can we appreciate the reason why Jesus said this? Right at the beginning of man’s existence, satan used family ties as a weapon.....Adam’s devotion to his wife was put before his devotion to his God. It’s an old tactic and it still works to this day. Emotions are easily manipulated.....divided loyalties can lead to devastating consequences....we are the victims of that.

"Trial" or "probation" is exactly what Adam and Eve lost for us in the Garden. Since sin became a part of them after partaking of it, their self-inflicted tendency toward selfishness became part of what is passed on to us at conception, so that we begin to act and think selfishly before we even emerge from the womb.

Since the devil and Adam and his wife were all sinless at their creation, but given free will, what we saw was an abuse of that free will motivated by selfish desire....that was not a product of sin but was a choice made by those who should have known better. The angel who became a “satan” (resister) and a “devil” (slanderer) was formerly a perfect angel in the service of his God, but as James states, he was overtaken by a selfish desire.....“Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (James 1:14-15)

It was his choice to become something other than what God created him to be, obviously carried away by his own magnificence. He knew that it would not end well, but that did not stop him from snatching his moment of personal glory. (that is a moment in universal time)
As Ezekiel stated....
“You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.” (Ezekiel 28:15)

Jesus said....“That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”

He was standing fast in the truth at first.....but became a manslayer when he took the humans on a course he knew meant death.
So the devil is also a murderer, responsible for the deaths of the first pair and all their offspring....but only in offering the temptation to disobey God by lying to the woman. What happened after that was on them. He was targeting the man all along....getting to him emotionally through his wife....dividing his loyalties...."divide and conquer" is a well known strategy because it usually works every time.

The devil will pay for his part, but not before God has used this rebellion in both realms to his own advantage, setting precedents for all time to come, so that no 'satan' or 'devil' will ever raise those issues about the Sovereignty of the Creator, again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Adam and Eve were in the full vigor of mental and physical ability when their loyalty to God was tested. But by the time we understand what sin is, we have already made it a way of life (without even the application of the adversary's deceptions), and therefore our probation must be purchased by a Kinsman Redeemer which, unfortunately, we can only accept after we have already sinned.

I see that a little differently as well....
A "redeemer" was one who paid a debt for someone who did not have the means to free themselves from slavery. If a man was heavily in debt, he could offer his children to help to work it off in his place. So children sometimes inherited a debt that was not theirs. If a benefactor came along and offered to pay the debt to free the child, the slavery was halted and that one was free to return home to their family.

Adam was our father who created the debt and Jesus was the generous benefactor who willingly paid the price....a price that no other human could pay. Sinless human life was lost for the human race through no fault on their part, and Jesus willingly came to earth as a sinless human to offer his life for ours. God’s law required equivalency...”eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life”. But the life lost was now irredeemable because of inherited sin. (Romans 5:12) There was no one with a perfect life to offer as a payment.....Jesus willingly offered his life to pay Adam’s debt....hence why he is called “the last Adam”. (1 Corinthians 15:45)

many people view "truth" as a merely intellectual pursuit, which simply cannot be the case, otherwise "the simple" would be unjustly limited in their understanding of truth. And I have seen firsthand evidence of the study of the Bible literally expanding and enlarging the intellect of believers in Christ.

Yes, truth is a strange concept when we see how it is often manipulated to present something so untruthful. Like propaganda, it gives a very false impression. Lies are presented as truth and vice versa.....this is the devil’s world...nothing is as it seems. Intellectuals do not always have the truth, in fact Jesus said....“I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children.” (Matthew 11:25) The truth is so simple even young children can grasp it.

The Creator. As such he has endowed much of His creation with varying degrees of creative power. To man, He has even given the power to procreate (which is greatly annoying and troublesome to the devil, btw).

Actually, he counts on it because his worshippers all die, so he has to recruit new ones constantly. He has made sex into something dirty and illicit, when it was meant to bring new life into a committed relationship as the ultimate expression of love. It was no coincidence that the first emotion felt after the fall was shame at their nakedness. Now they were aware of the feelings that sin would bring...lust is not love. Today sex is a right not a privilege and abortion can murder millions of unwanted children every year. It’s not like they don’t know what causes pregnancy.....

But Lucifer, as the exalted covering cherub, had no equal among the angels. He was greatly privileged, and as such, used the creative powers of his mind to imagine himself of more value than that which God had bestowed upon him. This must have been a slow process.

Actually, “Lucifer” was never a name given to the devil. The Latin Vulgate term “Lucifer” is merely the translation of the Hebrew word heh·lelʹ, “shining one.” Heh·lelʹ is not a name or a title but, rather, a term describing the boastful position taken by Babylon’s dynasty of kings of the line of Nebuchadnezzar. (Isaiah 14:4-21) Since Babylon was a tool of satan, its “king” reflected satan’s own ambitious desire.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But, finally, he could keep it to himself no longer and began to slowly broadcast suggestions that angels needed no government from God (which is the original, original lie), that it was not necessary to love God supremely and others as themselves (something they had taken for granted and never even thought of as "law" or "government), and that they could decide what was best for themselves. This was startling to his underlings, who had admired his brilliance and excellence of duty and character for so long. He was very careful of the pace with which he marketed his new philosophy, dropping hints and insinuations here and there.

I see this a little differently too.....satan’s rebellion is not mentioned until the creation of humans. As a covering cherub (a position of guardianship) he had responsibilities, and he was there on the spot observing all that was going on. If he had entertained ambitions before that, the Bible does not say.
He was not above his fellow angels except in rank. Seraphs and cherubs ranked higher than other angels (which means messenger) but again these were positions of humble service, not positions of power. All served the same God as he instructed them to. To step out of one’s assignment was to defy your Sovereign. In any nation on earth, to do that is treason and punishable by death. But God had good reasons for holding back on the punishment and using the situation to his own advantage and likewise to the benefit of all of his obedient children, both in heaven and on earth.

God, of course, knew of his plotting and maneuverings and, along with the angels who would not venture to stray from loyalty to Him, bore long with this poor creature who was bringing upon himself ultimate doom and tragedy almost beyond imagining. Finally, it was clear that The Light Bearer and those he had deceived were beyond reclamation, and so they had to be expelled from the abode of bliss, quarantining the outbreak of sin to a newly created world where God had just created a new race of creatures in His own image.

Since satan is pictured as taking his station with all the other angels before Jehovah in the account about Job, we can see revealed in this account what his true motives are concerning the faithful servants of God, and what he is capable of doing to us in order to prove his claims.....this..... if he was to make serving God painful in a variety of ways, we would all leave him. We can, by our own choices therefore, prove that the devil is liar.

God will not shield us or protect us from satan's influence, but he does give us the tools to show us how to arm ourselves against his assaults. I am sure that he did this with the angels as well. It's not a test unless we are exposed to the temptations that the devil serves to us. Even Jesus was subject to those temptations, proving that Adam and his wife had no excuse.

This gave Him a chance to test these new souls' loyalty to Him. If they passed the test and withstood the temptation of Lucifer in the form of a serpent. The band of rebellious angels would be dispatched elsewhere and peace and joyous communion between Adam (mankind) and Christ would continue throughout ceaseless ages.

The devil was just beginning his rulership over mankind in Eden. He was allowed free access to heaven until Christ received his authority as king. The prophet Daniel saw this take place in a heavenly vision, unseen to human eyes, about 500 years before Jesus was born as a human. (Daniel 3:13-14)

In Revelation, written at the end of the first century, the future was foretold concerning the time of the end. War was fought in heaven and satan and his hordes were evicted down to the vicinity of the earth, now to unleash their final attempts to pull worshippers away from the true God by the devil's tried and tested methods. (Revelation 12:7-12) He is angry now that his time is short, and we see a Job-like attempt to distract us with one disaster after another, affecting millions of people around the world. His original attempts were subtle, but now he is in all our faces trying his best to take even the elect as the demonic activities increase.

So far we have seen some differences and some similarities....

 

[Aunty Jane]

A little protest in Rome perhaps, but much protest elsewhere.

Not enough to hold back the tidal wave of what was to come....

Only in those areas where Rome had jurisprudence, yet even on Rome's doorstep, there were 'heretics' (according to Rome) who were faityhful to scripture and sharing the gospel as best they could in the midst of Catholic persecutions against them. Christianity had spread as far as China and the Philipines in the east, and Britain in the west, well before Constantine rose to make the new faith official. There have been true Christians throughout history who have continued the testimony and have seen the errors of Rome and protested against them.

Since Christianity was corrupted in the early centuries, (before Constantine, otherwise his edicts would not have been so readily accepted) apostasy was even manifesting whilst the apostles were still alive, so it stands to reason that any "Christianity" that spread to other lands carried it with it apostate ideas concerning the nature of God and the condition of the dead. These are the most corrupt teachings of all.

He was not the first, but certainly was the most noticeable.

Because he was a priest, he knew what the scriptures taught, but he just wanted to clean up what he saw as corruption....he had no intention of starting a revolution against the Catholic church. It was so powerful that he risked his life to do what he did. No one was permitted to speak against the church as this was "heresy"....but the religious leaders themselves were the real heretics, and still carry those teachings into the present day.
In 1517, Luther wrote his famous 95 theses, accusing the church of financial, doctrinal, and religious abuse. Wanting to encourage a reform, not a rebellion, Luther sent copies of his theses to Archbishop Albert of Mainz and to several scholars.
It had God's backing because it was the right time to break the power of the Roman church. It was also time to give the Bible to the people to read for themselves. That was one of the prime factors in the success of the Reformation.....but it didn't lead to what was hoped for.....Christian truth and unity....just the opposite in fact.

The Roman church still held many in captivity to their fear mongering lies about God and the condition of the dead.
For the pagan Romans....

Jesus took the place of Zeus.
Paul's words confirm that Jesus would not have had long hair.
"Does not nature itself teach you that long hair is a dishonor to a man,
15 but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given
to her instead of a covering." (1 Corinthians 11:14-15)

Why is Mary always portrayed with the infant Jesus when so little is
mentioned in the scriptures about his early life?
Jesus was a 30 year old man when he became the "Christ".
Mother goddess worship, seen in many ancient cultures, was at its roots.

Roman sun worship was also part and parcel of the original RCC......and evidence of it is still seen to this day.

In St Peter's Square there is a Babylonian sun wheel with an Egyptian obelisk at its center, which was brought from Egypt (not a replica) and represented the sun god Ra.
The nimbus (halo) seen in Catholic art is also a relic of sun worship.
Neither have anything to do with Christianity.

The monstrance and the wafer...both are clearly related to sun worship.

And the idolatry and devotion to Mary cannot be denied...not even Jesus paid that much homage to his mother.
In the church, Jesus is portrayed as either a helpless infant or as a dead man. Where is the triumphal King that he is today?

How far can a church stray from the teachings of Jesus Christ......? It beggars belief sometimes....

 

[Brakelite]

Since Christianity was corrupted in the early centuries, (before Constantine, otherwise his edicts would not have been so readily accepted) apostasy was even manifesting whilst the apostles were still alive, so it stands to reason that any "Christianity" that spread to other lands carried it with it apostate ideas concerning the nature of God and the condition of the dead. These are the most corrupt teachings of all.

There's a worse teaching that Rome propagated, but was resisted for centuries by courageous Christians, even in Italy itself. Not understanding the nature of God, is common to everybody... Without exception... For who by studying can find out God? And as for the state of the dead, sure, believing the dead can communicate with the living can get one into all manner of trouble and confusion. But there's worse.

That was one of the prime factors in the success of the Reformation.....but it didn't lead to what was hoped for.....Christian truth and unity...

The reformation hasn't finished. The apostasy took over 1000 years to fully develop... Can't expect the perfecting of the saints as initially intended to be overnight. Each reformer brought about further revelation of truth, but divided from one another. Now it's time for the Lord to bring all those truths together.

 

[Wrangler]

By the fourth century, “Christianity” was almost unrecognisable as the one Jesus has begun. Roman Catholicism became “the church”

The Eastern bishops never thought so. It would be helpful to understand the power hungry dynamics that led to The Great Schism centuries before Martin Luther.

 

[BarneyFife]

That was one of the prime factors in the success of the Reformation.....but it didn't lead to what was hoped for.....Christian truth and unity....just the opposite in fact.

Kinda sounds like failure, doesn't it?

 

[bbyrd009]

looking with two eyes, i guess it surely does, but i suggest that this is what progress looks like!

Hmmmm....must have been something lost in translation

ya, thats my take too

All the pagan aspects are still there, hidden in plain sight

ya…makes a fine nursery tho, imo, even if i wouldn’t call it “Church”

The RCC was the only “Christianity” in existence for centuries, becoming more and more corrupt and powerful as time went on.....never were they serving the interests of God or his Christ on earth, but rather, serving the interests of God’s adversary who created it as the “weeds” of Jesus parable. The shameful atrocities committed in the name of Christ will not go unpunished

well, you say that, but i wonder if that was not just the best way, strangely enough. Imo it allowed the Bible to come through to us, and whereas we have lost many writings, we still have many witnesses to canon, that we otherwise might have lost
all sins will be forgiven

When Luther nailed his protests to the door of the church demanding that the unchristian practices cease, he was not trying to create a revolution, but sincerely wanted to stop the rot, which as a priest, and privy to the word of God, he knew was rife in the power-hungry men who dominated the so called “Christian” faith. But a revolution was about to begin and a Reformation brought out many who were so weary of being under the rule of such corruption and unchristian conduct. But Protestantism did not unite the church and bring it back to Christ....it simply divided it into literally thousands of bickering sects who all believed the men who spoke and convinced them to follow their lead. So here we are and most are still wondering where Jesus is in all that mess

again, i gotta believe that this is how it was meant to be; people becoming “believers” and then trying to fit Christ into the world, not leaving the world as advised. Im from the south, so i was raised to dislike the RCC, but let’s admit your congregation building isnt open today, and mine isnt, at least practically speaking? Catholic Charities helps anyone in need (storehouse) and i notice some other things about Catholics in particular, they mostly have forgiveness, whereas Prots are not real good at that. And you are JW right? ha so lets change the subject i guess lol. I think this forum runs on forgiveness

Only in the “time of the end” would God separate out a people whom he would “cleanse, whiten and refine” (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) to carry out the work that Jesus foretold for these last days when Christ was to return and oversee the greatest and most far-reaching preaching campaign the world had ever seen

well, that is a popular pov i guess…”the world had ever seen”
lotta previous generations felt the same, apparently, so i dunno
but i note that you, me, everyone in their own time, undergoes a Last Day, and a new batch replaces them…

 

[bbyrd009]

Only in the “time of the end” would God separate out a people whom he would “cleanse, whiten and refine” (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) to carry out the work that Jesus foretold for these last days when Christ was to return

And ironically it took another leader to expose the deception and hypocrisy of the false.

That's the 3rd time that exact quote has come up in the last fortnight. I searched (knowing a part of the quote) for it and used it in a bible study last Wednesday week, the Pastor used it in his sermon the following Sabbath, and now...it is for the above reason (in the quote) that we should never judge another as unsaved, or deny anyone's personal testimony.

2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is

 

[bbyrd009]

Epistemology is about the limits and levels of knowledge. The 2nd branch of philosophy. Knowledge is different from opinion, feeling, intuition or instinct. A coworker asked me every day, “Whst do you know?”

This thread is about the 1st branch of philosophy, metaphysics. What is real or true?

The natural follow up question is, how do you know?

17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will give the hidden manna

 

[ScottA]

I have no idea how that is a response to what I said......can we just stick to the topic at hand and the relevance of the response.....in plain English.....please.

You purposed a question about the beginning and "What really happened in Eden."

I answered it (right on topic):

So my first point of interest is why we find ourselves in this situation in the first place. What really happened in Eden that prompted all that followed for the human race, as well as for the angelic sons of God who also came into the picture later in the biblical record. (Genesis 1-6)

Was God allowing the devil a free hand to prove that he would be the better god and ruler over mankind?
If one of the new humans had chosen to believe this rebel’s lies and had influenced someone else to do so, what were the implications of this abuse of free will for the children they were told to have? How would their decision affect those children being raised by now sinful parents alienated from their Creator? How would it affect other angels who also had free will? What did God offer by way of help?
What outcome was he hoping for? (John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9-10)

I believe the lesson here is learning to manage free will so that it becomes the blessing it was meant to be, rather than the curse it became when it was abused. Why else would the devil rule with God’s permission, knowing that he was a heartless predator? (1 John 5:19; 1 Peter 5:6-11)

Truth?

Truth is--not in the beginning [actually] for this is of God who is without beginning or end, but in the twinkling of an eye, God by the light of Christ fathered the creation of the media of God shining forth as through a prism all that is written into a time, times, and the half of time, which are with men but not with God, both backward to that would-be beginning and forward to that would-be end, in Christ, the Beginning and the End. Wherein freewill was and is until the fullness thereof, which is the extension of God as a king extends his territory and his subjects for his on glory. That darkness should not go or follow, but only the light of truth in Christ. This is the judgement and the doing of God according to His own will.​

The problem is not that I am off topic or have not told you the truth--but rather that it has never been stated as such before now. But has only been revealed in sequence of time, times, and half a time. Which is to say, it has only been understood by the terms of this world--not of the kingdom. This is that "treasure hidden in a field."

You asked.

 

[theefaith]

Unity of faith!


“Bible alone” is the cos of division;

Not the Bible or the Bible and the teaching authority of Christ in His church founded on Peter and his successors! Matt 16:18-19

Who is the arbiter of truth!

You can decide.
You can decide what is true.
You can decide what is truth.
You can decide right and wrong.

Not one of these are found in scripture!

Found in scripture!
Taught is found 79 times
Instructed is found 19
Instruction is found 33


Jn 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…

Matt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[theefaith]

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Fundamentalism drives a wedge between Christ and his church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Extends to the truth and the church

Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20