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A message for those of you expecting to go to heaven

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by John Zain, Apr 26, 2013.

  1. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    I wrote a reply on this passage earlier. The conclusion was that this passage is a description of the salvation process; re: conviction of sin, and the coming to God for forgiveness and cleansing. The next verse deals with what happens when believers sin. The problem I have with using 1John 1:9 as an ongoing practice in the life of a believer is that the verse would then imply that forgiveness is removed because of sin, then reinstated upon confession. And furthermore that the cleansing from all unrighteousness is temporary.

    Do we confess our sin to God? Why not? In an ongoing relationship there will be communication. But we are told we ought to come boldly to the throne of grace to find grace to help in time of need. How does one come boldly if he is taught that God is holding unforgiveness? What we really need from Him is help in our weakness. Do need to get right with Him (over and over and over and over....) before getting this help? If not, then why use a verse that implies otherwise? I think it was meant to explain a principle, not to instruct believers into a practice. In that day there was a gnostic teaching in their midst that denied the existence of sin. John was addressing this, so I have been told. Without the acknowledgment of sin, one will not see the need for forgiveness and salvation. Hence, 1John 1:8,9. Note that John did not address anyone in particular until chapter 2.
     
  2. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Forgiveness is removed, not by GOD, but by us; and it cannot be restored until we turn back to GOD to bask in his unconditional forgiveness.

    Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear. Isaiah 59:1-2
     
  3. Warrior

    Warrior New Member

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    Us Christians are born again, we are supposed to avoid worldliness (Values of the world, and sinful desires). Everyone sins, don't be deceived. We just have to keep Repenting, Praying daily, keep reading the Bible and seeking God.

    We can never be "good enough" to receive salvation people. It is a gift, and we should accept it that way. God is SO GOOD, we can never be good enough. Just keep trying to please God with Faith.
     
  4. Ruth

    Ruth New Member

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    5) through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see

    9The reward for trusting him will be the salvation of your souls


    13) think clearly and exercise self-control.

    Look forward to the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world.

    14So you must live as God’s obedient children.

    Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then.

    15But now you MUST be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. 16For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.”

    He ( Jesus) will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent FEAR of him during your time as “foreigners in this land

    22You were cleansed from your sins when you obeyed the truth..... (OBEYED THE TRUTH, NOT JUST BELIEVE, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD)

    1So get rid of all evil behavior. (from apostle Peter to the Jewish church, his first letter, chapter one)
     
  5. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    i am hearing a lot of ideas that do not fit together.

    1 Christians need to stop sinning.

    2. we will never be able to stop sinning.

    3. only God can stop us from sinning

    4. we need to stop trying to be moral because being good is works and is meaningless.

    5. we need to have good fruit if we are really christians.

    So what is the relationship between morality and sin?
     
  6. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Unconditional forgiveness? We just read that it is a result of confession of sin. That is a condition.
    Were you being sarcastic, or did you think this was an intelligent comment? But seriously, according to Heb.6:1-6, if one should fall away, it would be impossible to turn again, to be renewed again to repentance. So don't try to lay that one on us. We should know better by now, as this passage has been shared multiple times on these threads.

    If we fall from forgiveness, is that not the same thing?

    Eph. 1:7, says this..." In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the richness of His grace". According to the truth found in that verse, as long as we are IN HIM, we have both redemption and forgiveness. According to your viewpoint, we can go in and out of forgiveness. So therefore if that were to be the case, we must be going in and out of being IN HIM! But Heb.6:6 says otherwise. This would be impossible, according to that verse.

    As long as we are in Christ, it is impossible to remove His forgiveness, as you put it. Nice try!

    As well, Is.59:1-2 is way out of context for those who are in Christ. That problem was solved at Calvary.

    1John2:1...." if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous".... I suggest you drop this doctrine that you have been taught and listen to the truth contained in scripture. That doctrinal viewpoint you cling to is nullified by 1John 2:1.
    If soap can be overcome by dirt, then it is useless. So if the sacrifice of Jesus for sin can be overcome by sin, then He failed. Then the sacrifice is weaker and more temporary than the blood of bulls and goats. Really???
    Really? Who are you listening to?
     
  7. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    WM, I'm not sure what you're stumbling over, or what is so hard for you to understand. If we turn to GOD's forgiveness we receive cleansing of our conscience. If we refuse to turn towards his forgiveness we remain in darkness with a defiled conscience. Forgiveness is a two-party deal. GOD's forgiveness abides forever, but that forgiveness does us no good if we refuse to turn towards it. That is the fate of the world, and anyone who denies Christ.
     
  8. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Regretfully, I may well have confused you with someone else. I know where you are coming from, but I am addressing the practice of Christians concerning an interpretation of 1John 1:9.
    According to 2Cor.5:19,20, reconciliation is definitely a two party deal. Forgiveness is part of this deal and is accomplished upon the new birth. In Him we have the forgiveness of sin. The only way we can fall out of this forgiveness is if we fall out of Christ. We are not required to come back to God over and over and over to get re forgiven over and over and over. 1John 1:9 is a one-time event. After that, we progress to 1John 2:1. If we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father: Jesus.

    When we were reconciled to God we were cleansed from all unrighteousness. The wages of sin is death. Therefore our old man is declared to be dead, by proxy with the crucifixion of Jesus. This is why sin can no longer separate us from God. If we walk out of fellowship, we merely need to walk back into it. We are His already. We do not need to repeat the original process of becoming His.

    Even the prodigal son did not need to be reinstated back into his family. Those who walk far, far, away can still return with full membership in the family. They never lost it. The message that we need to seek forgiveness over and over is a message that denies the power and accomplishment of the cross. Blessings, Howie
     
  9. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    This is true. I do think, though, that just as the prodigal son had to acknowledge to his father that he went astray, we too return to favor through acknowledgement of our goings astray.
     
  10. domenic

    domenic New Member

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    I have read James many times. James was the half brother of Jesus, not having the same father. For the whole time Jesus spent on earth, James did not believe Jesus was the son of God. I do not believe James believed it even after Jesus died. His writing does not read like a man who believed.
     
  11. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    We ought to be careful using this kind of wording, as there are those weak in the faith and those babes in Christ who would take it as though, having lost favor with God, they have lost their salvation. Even now there are those who take 1John 1:9 to mean this very thing, and therefore they believe that if one dies with unconfessed sin in their lives, they are lost forever.

    We may well lose favor if in sin, but this is as a child with his parents. Jesus therefore promised that He would chasten those whom He loved. We find an example of this in Rev.2:20-22, where Jesus declares that those servant of His who are being beguiled into sexual immorality will be cast into great tribulation (trouble) unless they repent.
    As for the prodigal son, his chastening was in the misery that his life had wrought as a result of his wanderings. Sin has the same result. It cannot satisfy in any permanent way, It does not fulfill anywhere near the life we feel in Christ. Those who settle for an unsatisfactory life will soon or eventually come to their senses if they have the indwelling presence of God to compare it with.
    As parents, we eventually have to let go and allow our children to learn life's lessons the hard way, as they get older and are making decisions for themselves. How is it that people do not see the same kind of relationship with our Heavenly Father being played out?

    The first verse in James..." James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" The first verse in chapter 2..." My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.."

    His writing does not read like a man who believed?

    The reason some feel this way about the letter is that they do not understand how it fits in with the covenant of grace. But James was exhorting his fellow converted Jews. Just as he mentions partiality, he also goes into other observations concerning their conduct toward one another. This is his motive for saying the things he said. He may not have had all of the same revelation as Paul, but he obviously had an understanding that those who have Christ in them are usually seen loving one another with a more genuine and consistent love than what he was observing with his fellow brethren. Therefore, he brought up the subject of faith.

    Those who use James to convict or condemn others about their works, are using the letter inappropriately. If a person is lacking the fruit, then as James suggested, maybe they actually lack the faith that produces it. This is not an exhortation to bear works, It is an exhortation to believe on the Lord. Faith has a purpose. It is to receive from God. If one has not yet received, then faith is what is lacking, not works.
     
  12. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    The 3 verses (1 John 1:8-10) that you don't like were written to BACs,
    who had their PAST sins forgiven when they were born-again.
    Romans 3:25 “... He passed over the sins previously committed ... ”

    All of this falls in line with the great multitude of warnings about not sinning, etc.

    What’s so incredible is … how incredibly-designed the word is!

    In the NT, all the time we have this incredible mixture of BEWs …
    Blessings, Explanations, and Warnings that the blessings are conditional.

    IMO, the simple blessings are hooks to catch the little fishes,
    then Jesus warns to be sure to count the cost of discipleship,
    then later we really find out what the requirements are.

    Note: the incredible free gift of grace and faith and salvation and etc. ...
    are all just to get the lucky ones started of the tough, hard, narrow road to Heaven.


    All of the many multitudes of dozens of warnings are there for a reason!
    Jesus and the epistle writers were not just blowin' smoke!
     
  13. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    J, that verse doesn't say what you think it says. The Greek word translated sins in R 3:25 actually means sin effects or results of sin.

    Paul is not saying that only one's previously committed sins are forgiven when one is born again, but that the former results of sin (judgment and death) that occurred before the cross are now passed over.

    That is what grace is all about.
     
  14. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    “He passed over the sins previously committed” (Rom 3:25, NASB)

    I'm having a rough time believing that so many verses have been so terribly translated,
    esp. in the most literal translation of them all ... the NASB.

    There must be a huge difference in the Greek between "sins" and "effects/results of sins"!

    How can this be attributed to misunderstanding the context of a passage?

    Just perhaps you are trying to protect a favorite bias of yours?
     
  15. domenic

    domenic New Member

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    James is the half brother of Jesus. He grew up with Jesus. James did not believe Jesus was the son of God, until after Jesus death. His writing (to me) does not sound real. JMO
     
  16. JB_Reformed Baptist

    JB_Reformed Baptist Many are called but few are chosen.

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    Allow me to correct your double mindedness and your poor theology.



    Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1Jn 2:15-16





    1Jn 2:1-6 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: see 1 Jn 1:9

    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



    1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


    If your experience in the LORD is continuous failure than you need to address your understanding and standing before God. 2 Tim 3:5
     
  17. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    It is what it is. The Greek word in R 3:25 is ἁμάρτημα (harmatema); the -ma suffix means effect (i.e., sin effect).

    It is rarely used in the NT (5x), and quite a few times in the LXX. Sin effect is the only meaning that makes sense in verses like Isaiah 20:2 and Deuteronomy 19:15.

    The passing over in R 3:25 is a direct reference to the Passover in which the death angel passed over executing the results of sin (death) in Israelite households covered with lamb's blood. It didn't pass over their sins; GOD's judgment passed over the effects of their sins on his holiness that called for their death.

    We abide under the eternal Passover, Christ, whose blood causes GOD's holiness to pass over the judgment we are due:

    Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Corinthians 5:7

    Believe whatever you want to believe. Your attitude makes not really care what you believe.
     
  18. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    It appears that most translations use "effects/results of sins",
    which does best fit the context of the entire Bible.
     
  19. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    2 Peter 1:9 is similar to R 3:25:

    But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:9

    Like R 3:25, the word translated sins is ἁμάρτημα (hamartema), i.e. sin effect.

    Well, not exactly exactly because someone messed with this verse in some ancient manuscript(s). Codex Vaticanus has the normal word for sin (αμαρτια, hamartia), whereas Codices Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus have ἁμάρτημα (hamartema). Many bibles have αμαρτια (hamartia) because they were translated from Codex Vaticanus.

    This is my interpretation based on my hunch that ἁμάρτημα (hamartema), i.e. sin effect, is the original word:

    Yet to whom these things are not present is blind, closing his eyes, oblivious to receiving former cleansing of his sin-effect (results of sin, i.e., death). 2 Peter 1:9

    I will say this much about Codex Vaticanus. It is documented in the manuscript itself that scribes altered the text.

    I don't have an agenda J. I'm merely trying to understand the truth. Do consider the possibility that the reference point for both Romans 3:25 and 2 Peter 1:9 is the cross, and not each individual's born again experience.
     
  20. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    If what you are saying is true, then God has failed to keep this letter out of scripture. If this is the case, then we have no way of confirming anything that is contained in the bible as inspired of God. So this is all just a matter of our personal opinions?
    The history of the letter is that it was written before Paul's missionary work. At the time, the church was made up largely of converted Hebrew Christians. The letter was written in response to Jame's observations concerning the behavior of some towards others. It was an exhortation to love one another. But it was written in language that they would have understood, having come out of the covenant of law. The term.."faith without works is dead" was not meant to be a doctrinal truth, but rather a logical plea. The example James gave were the works of a harlot who helped God's messengers, and of Abraham, who almost killed his own son on an alter. These had nothing to do with moral behavior. They were simply showing that what you believe will manifest itself in what you do. People who transfer this passage onto moral behavior being required of Christians for salvation, have mis-applied the meaning and intent of the passage.
    The truth is not lost in this letter if we consider the progression of exchange between man and God. Faith has a purpose. It is the method by which we receive from God. If one has truly received the new birth and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by faith, then there will be fruit (works). If one has not received these from God, then faith for them was not applied. It is dead.
    The bigger mistake that is made by some interpreters of this letter is to assume that works are automatically proof of faith. They forget that before the new covenant, works without faith were the common experience. I think James was well aware of this and had no intention of bringing old covenant law into the new covenant. The exhortation was to love one another. This is the new testament commandment, along with faith, as seen in 1John 3:23. But as for the qualification for life, neither of these are foremost. The actual qualification is humility. God gives grace to the humble. Faith is a method, not a qualification. As well, love itself is poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Rom.5:5). We do not love to get, we love because freely we have received and freely we give.
     
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