A message for those of you expecting to go to heaven

[veteran]

IMO, there is a lot of tricky stuff going on in the NT.
John 3:16, etc. simply says to only believe and you're saved.
Other passages definitely say one can lose salvation.

In Matthew 5, we have the Beatitudes where Jesus warns against ...
anger (murder), looking (adultery), divorce, oaths, not going the second mile, not loving your enemies.

Immediately next, He says, "you shall be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
I.E. If you do all of the good stuff I just mentioned, you'll be perfect.

But He's not saying when you're finally in heaven you'll be perfect.
Unless He's playing word games!

Related ... Ever notice that Paul often mixes strong warnings with soothing exhortation?

IMO, most spiritual Truths are "somewhat hidden" and must be revealed spiritually.
I.E. When you have 2 supposedly conflicting groups of verses.
Not too long ago, I started a thread on this.

I think what our Lord Jesus said is required compared with what His Apostles also said is pretty black and white. Belief on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ is always a requirement. If we 'stay' on Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit and in Faith, striving to walk by The Spirit and asking forgiveness when we mess up, then we are counted as 'perfect', even though we never can attain real perfection in this life.

That's one of the things Holy Communion is to help accomplish with our walk; it's a time of introspection of our selves while in holy communion with Him. The bread and wine are outward symbols of His Sacrifice for us to remember until He comes, but one of the other main reasons for Communion is to join with Him in Spirit and prayer, repentance and asking forgiveness, and with Him work out problems that need fixing.

I think where many get confused is with the expression of having been 'saved'. In Acts 2 Peter says to repent and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and by that one would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Notice he didn't say that meant one is officially 'saved' at that point, even though it is a requirement of being 'saved'. Same idea in Acts 10:43.

Rom 6:1-23
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The act of our Faith and being baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ means being baptized into His death, becoming dead to sin by... walking in newness of life. Does that mean it's OK to walk in the same old life of sin we had before that? No.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is not just philosophical speech by Apostle Paul. In the next verses he declares how we are to reckon ourselves to be dead from sin.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

That means while we are here during this present world, we are still able to allow sin to reign in our flesh bodies. Even though our Lord Jesus defeated death on the cross for us, we still have to overcome sin through Him until our flesh dies, or until His future coming.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

What Apostle Paul says there is the direct opposite of the 'once saved, always saved' doctrines of men. If we yeild ourselves to sin, then we become the servants of sin and not servants of Christ Jesus. He's making it obvious there's a condition to overcome through Christ that still exists, even after having believed and baptized. Our Lord Jesus has made it easier for us to overcome by the gift of The Holy Spirit and through future repentance to Him like Apostle John taught in 1 John 1.

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Is Paul admonishing them only for coming to Christ there? Not that only, but also... how they left those old ways which they now became ashamed of (Holy Spirit working in them to produce conviction of the heart and impart understanding). In 1 Cor.5, Paul ordered a member in the Church at Corinth to be cast out from them because of having sexual intercourse with his own mother. Later in 1 Corinthians there's somewhat to show that member being brought back in and forgiven for the sin. But Paul's judgment he first declared upon that one should be an eye opener, for he said to cast that one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so his spirit might be saved in the day of Christ (i.e., day of the Lord, Christ's future Milennium reign).

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)


So while our Lord Jesus promised us His Salvation, like in John 3, He also attached what kind of relationship and life we live with Him to it in more of His teaching elsewhere in The Gospel Books. We have to weigh and understand all that together, and not do a chop and select like men's traditions often do.

It should really be easy to understand why men's traditions like to preach the idea that once we believe on Christ Jesus and baptized that's it, that we can then live in total disregard to sin. Who wouldn't want the free gift with no longer having to check their self in regard to sin? That kind of attitude is not Biblical, and it reminds me of some of the old Roman Church traditions of telling believers they can pay money to keep out of purgatory after they die. It's those kind of attitudes that our Lord Jesus was talking about within Scripture like Matthew 7:21-27. And that's the kind of attitude going on in some Churches today who preach the once saved, always saved doctrines of men. They have works in Christ Jesus, while teaching the believer is totally free from any sin. In a round-about way that is like teaching it's OK to do iniquity, since they have the idea there is no more sin the believer need be concerned about in their lives. That's why He included the idea of iniquity guilt against those in that Matt.7:21-27 Message.

 

[williemac]

Rom.10:9..." that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" vs.10.." For with the heart one believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"

I don't know how much more clear this can be made. The subject of our moral behavior, as important as it is, is separate from the subject of the receiving of the gift of life. The two are not to be connected. Read also John 5:24, John 6:50,51. It takes humility to let go of our own righteousness and receive life freely by faith alone. God gives grace to the humble.

 

[veteran]

Veteran says it means "mature" ... maybe it depends on the bias of the translator!!!

“Therefore you shall be perfect/mature/complete,
just as your Father in heaven is perfect/mature/complete.” (Matthew 5:48)

How about havin' a go @ "holy" ... the Veteran declined.
Lots of verses telling us TO BE holy ... when there are verses saying we ARE holy.

I'm not against the usage of the idea of 'holy'. But to address that concept requires more depth Biblically.

In Phil.3:12 Apostle Paul uses Greek teleioo for idea of 'perfect' in the sense of absolute completeness, finished. That's the actual sense most here are thinking with their interpretation of 'perfect'. Greek teleiosis covers a broader range of meaning, which is why I use the idea of maturity. It leaves room for the idea of a not yet absolute perfection like Greek teleiosis can point to (Heb.5:14; 1 Cor.13:9-12).

Rom.10:9..." that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" vs.10.." For with the heart one believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"

I don't know how much more clear this can be made. The subject of our moral behavior, as important as it is, is separate from the subject of the receiving of the gift of life. The two are not to be connected. Read also John 5:24, John 6:50,51. It takes humility to let go of our own righteousness and receive life freely by faith alone. God gives grace to the humble.

What you say is true, but it does not mean we can continue to live a life a sin. There's supposed to be change once we come to Christ Jesus are are baptized. Like Jesus said, where our treasure is, that's where our heart will be. So having come to Christ Jesus means we should be showing fruits in Him, and not fruits of our old lives in sin. He showed us how to deal with sin after believing on Him and being baptized, as did His Apostles throughout the New Testament Scripture.

Let me make it easier; if our treasure is raising horses, that's where our heart will be and there will be works to show it. Same thing with belief on Christ Jesus and being baptized, and then afterwards, one will have works to show it. How can those things be separate? They are not. What is separate, is that our works cannot save us, they are only a result of Faith on Christ. We are saved only by His Grace.

 

[John Zain]

So, what's holiness? How do you understand the scriptures, as Jesus said?

The below is what I believe ++ perhaps it is the correct heart attitude (i.e. it's in the trying)
that is the most important thing! ... which includes a lot of repenting (1 John 1:8-9).
UCAN do it.

[SIZE=10pt]I believe that we are to live holy because its our reasonable service to the free gift of salvation we have received from God. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Holiness is the behaivor of our genuine belief. Genuine belief produces behavior. Christ imputes His righteousness in us and gives us the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us daily and matures in Christ. We should die daily [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]to sin and be resurrected by the Word of God. Holiness is commanded and we must adhere to it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." (Romans 12:1) [/SIZE]

John Zain (evangelist-7)
Your posts belong in a devout legalistic orthodox Jewish forum.
Not only that you take most verses and apply them totally out of context
Exactly what are you trying to accomplish anyway. ?

I'ze a-tyin' to learn the hand-jive from da Willie, if thou katches my drift.
Arnold, you've gottcherself 2 choices ... do the Willie hand-jive ... or ... listen to UCAN.

If we 'stay' on Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit and in Faith, striving to walk by The Spirit
and asking forgiveness when we mess up, then we are counted as 'perfect',
even though we never can attain real perfection in this life.

... one of the other main reasons for Communion is to join with Him in Spirit and prayer,
repentance and asking forgiveness, and with Him work out problems that need fixing.

I think where many get confused is with the expression of having been 'saved'.

Yes ... Yes ... and the OSAS doctrine came straight out of the pits of Hell.
Just as did another favorite church doctrine ... the cessationist doctrine,
which has been way beyond disastrous and devastating for the whole world.

Even most BACs don't get it ... Free-will Satan ++ Free-will man
== a powerful adversary to what the Lord has desired for the church (and the world)!

Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
Then, we BACs came along, which is a nice improvement.
But, there still remains some real spiritual idiocy in many of them!

 

[williemac]

I'm not against the usage of the idea of 'holy'. But to address that concept requires more depth Biblically.

In Phil.3:12 Apostle Paul uses Greek teleioo for idea of 'perfect' in the sense of absolute completeness, finished. That's the actual sense most here are thinking with their interpretation of 'perfect'. Greek teleiosis covers a broader range of meaning, which is why I use the idea of maturity. It leaves room for the idea of a not yet absolute perfection like Greek teleiosis can point to (Heb.5:14; 1 Cor.13:9-12).



What you say is true, but it does not mean we can continue to live a life a sin. There's supposed to be change once we come to Christ Jesus are are baptized. Like Jesus said, where our treasure is, that's where our heart will be. So having come to Christ Jesus means we should be showing fruits in Him, and not fruits of our old lives in sin. He showed us how to deal with sin after believing on Him and being baptized, as did His Apostles throughout the New Testament Scripture.

Let me make it easier; if our treasure is raising horses, that's where our heart will be and there will be works to show it. Same thing with belief on Christ Jesus and being baptized, and then afterwards, one will have works to show it. How can those things be separate? They are not. What is separate, is that our works cannot save us, they are only a result of Faith on Christ. We are saved only by His Grace.

The passage I quoted is in reference to salvation. I did not say that we should continue in sin. What I suggested is that this is another category than the requirement for life. Otherwise, several passages are false, including the one I quoted from ROM.10.
There is one kind of thinking that I have a problem with, and this is the black vs.white type of reasoning that is used, which could also be described as using absolutes where they don't really exist.

The law is something that is demanding to the degree of zero tolerance. Failure on any one point of the law results in the guilt of the entire law being levied. But this type of covenant has been done away with. However, there are those who drag this zero tolerance into the new covenant, making it legalistic in application. Let me explain.

In regards to fruit, Jesus indicated that there are various degrees of it that will be produced ( some100, some60, some30..Math.13:23). In fact, in the parable of the talents, the wicked servant bore no fruit whatsoever, having dug a hole and buried the money. The master indicated that he should at least have put it in the bank to collect interest. This shows a great deal of tolerance (understatement) rather than found in the law, which is zero.

Furthermore, whether one likes it or not, it is possible to both bear fruit, and have sin in one's life. Does the one cancel out the other? If so, this would be zero tolerance.

Fruit is not necessarily the absence of all sin. The fruit of the Spirit is plainly seen as our behavior towards others. Should we sin? Of course not. But if we do, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus (1John2:1).

There are several threads here where some are insisting that sin can cause one to lose his salvation. This is false. Zero fruit, or the falling from faith, are the only two things that can accomplish this kind of loss. Sin will get a person chastened. Jesus made this promise. I would rather take His word for it, than what some are suggesting.

I have repeatedly quoted John 5:24. I have not consistently been available here for debate, but to my knowledge, no one has objected to the promise made in that passage, or proven that it means something other than what it says. Which is: We who are of faith in Him have everlasting life, have passed from death to life, and will not come into judgment. It is pretty plain language.

Now if we want to exhort one another to abstain from sin, I'm in. But if we use salvation or the giving of eternal life, as the motivator for such, then we depart from the truth.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

The below is what I believe ++ perhaps it is the correct heart attitude (i.e. it's in the trying)
that is the most important thing! ... which includes a lot of repenting (1 John 1:8-9).
UCAN do it.

[SIZE=10pt]I believe that we are to live holy because its our reasonable service to the free gift of salvation we have received from God. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Holiness is the behaivor of our genuine belief. Genuine belief produces behavior. Christ imputes His righteousness in us and gives us the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us daily and matures in Christ. We should die daily [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]to sin and be resurrected by the Word of God. Holiness is commanded and we must adhere to it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." (Romans 12:1) [/SIZE]



I'ze a-tyin' to learn the hand-jive from da Willie, if thou katches my drift.
Arnold, you've gottcherself 2 choices ... do the Willie hand-jive ... or ... listen to UCAN.



Yes ... Yes ... and the OSAS doctrine came straight out of the pits of Hell.
Just as did another favorite church doctrine ... the cessationist doctrine,
which has been way beyond disastrous and devastating for the whole world.

Even most BACs don't get it ... Free-will Satan ++ Free-will man
== a powerful adversary to what the Lord has desired for the church (and the world)!

Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
Then, we BACs came along, which is a nice improvement.
But, there still remains some real spiritual idiocy in many of them!

Certainly keeping a heart tender(Heb 12:9-11) is important, as you said. But what I glean from scripture is that God alone is Holy and through discipline of God the disciple of Christ learns to bring every thought and hence action into obedience to Christ. This in turn produces the fruit of righteousness/right doing according to God. We have on the other hand a duty ourselves as Peter more than clearly spells out.

In aiding the work of the Holy Spirit, the christian is called to do a number of practical things. I will merely point out a couple of those scripture's as there are others that point to our side of the covenant so as to grow in HIS holiness. It's up to the individual to seek them out. It's a given they will be feeding on the word or else the holy spirit can't guide, instruct, encourage, rebuke etc them and not forsaking the assembling of themselves.


2 Peter 1:4-9
1 Peter 2:11

 

[veteran]

The passage I quoted is in reference to salvation. I did not say that we should continue in sin. What I suggested is that this is another category than the requirement for life. Otherwise, several passages are false, including the one I quoted from ROM.10.

There is one kind of thinking that I have a problem with, and this is the black vs.white type of reasoning that is used, which could also be described as using absolutes where they don't really exist.

Too bad you don't like that kind of reasoning, because that's how His Salvation is proposed in His Word. He showed exactly what is required for His Salvation, He didn't make it a magical mystery tour like how the pagans think and worship. We can know exactly what is required. But like He said for when He returns, "... when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)




The law is something that is demanding to the degree of zero tolerance. Failure on any one point of the law results in the guilt of the entire law being levied. But this type of covenant has been done away with. However, there are those who drag this zero tolerance into the new covenant, making it legalistic in application. Let me explain.

In regards to fruit, Jesus indicated that there are various degrees of it that will be produced ( some100, some60, some30..Math.13:23). In fact, in the parable of the talents, the wicked servant bore no fruit whatsoever, having dug a hole and buried the money. The master indicated that he should at least have put it in the bank to collect interest. This shows a great deal of tolerance (understatement) rather than found in the law, which is zero.

Again, it's like our Lord Jesus said, where a man's treasure is, that's where his heart will be. The unprofitable servant reveals his heart was somewhere else, and thus allied with iniquity and not Faith which produces the good fruits. By that example He was showing us about one that falls away from Him to another or something else. It is possible to fall away from Christ back into iniquity. But remember the prodigal son parable. So will Jesus find Faith on the earth when He comes? By that question He posed He's actually showing us how bad things are going to be on this earth by the time of His return, with many falling away instead of staying on Him.

Furthermore, whether one likes it or not, it is possible to both bear fruit, and have sin in one's life. Does the one cancel out the other? If so, this would be zero tolerance.

That's obvious, even with those of Matt.7 which Jesus remarked will be claiming they did all kind of works in His Name. Yet He will tell them to get away from Him, those who do iniquity. That section of Scripture actually has to be understood in association with the other Scriptures of those He will shut the door upon at His coming, like the five foolish virgins of Matt.25. It's associated with a specific event of iniquity coming in our near future for the tribulation period, bowing in false worship to another in His place. That's the kind of condition produced for the five foolish virgins, since they are told to go to the market and 'buy' the Oil, something that cannot be bought or sold. Enough said on that here.

I think you'd be much more successful in understanding this if you compared our walk with Christ by Faith how the family order works. Good parents always love their children no matter what they do. But there's a limit the good parent has with their children when discipline is needed. A child that still rebels and refuses discipline, well, I think you can figure out the rest, like Hebrew 12:8 says.

Fruit is not necessarily the absence of all sin. The fruit of the Spirit is plainly seen as our behavior towards others. Should we sin? Of course not. But if we do, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus (1John2:1).

We all still sin, period, and will continue to do so until Christ's coming. That's why we are to stay in the walk with Him, so we can be counted as pefect. The reason OSAS is a false doctrine is because it denies that we sin any longer at all after having believed on Jesus Christ and baptized in His Name. That's like leaving the walk altogether, which is what that OSAS false doctrine of devils is designed to do.

There are several threads here where some are insisting that sin can cause one to lose his salvation. This is false. Zero fruit, or the falling from faith, are the only two things that can accomplish this kind of loss. Sin will get a person chastened. Jesus made this promise. I would rather take His word for it, than what some are suggesting.

You have to leave out a whole lot of New Testament Scripture to hold to that erroneous idea that a believer cannot fall away to lose their salvation. Try Hebrews 6 for size, or 2 Pet.2:20-22, or Galatians 5, and maybe Heb.12:8 again. I presently have a family member that once was a believer on Christ, was baptized, but has for years strongly rebelled against Him in iniquity, not even caring anymore. Now if he repents and makes a change, I'm sure our Lord Jesus will forgive Him. But the time is short, as he's near death for his acts, and Christ's coming is around the corner today. One can completely cut themselves off from The Lord if they so choose.

I have repeatedly quoted John 5:24. I have not consistently been available here for debate, but to my knowledge, no one has objected to the promise made in that passage, or proven that it means something other than what it says. Which is: We who are of faith in Him have everlasting life, have passed from death to life, and will not come into judgment. It is pretty plain language.

What true believer on Christ Jesus would object to that Promise? But then again, what true believer would do a cut and paste of that verse only out of The Bible while rejecting the rest of our Lord's and His Apostle's teachings throughout God's Word? Sounds like you're wanting to leave out the rest of the New Testament Scripture when we cannot. Once one comes to Christ and believes and is baptized, why even continue... in Church anymore afterwards? You could just go out and live your life how you wanted. That's the condition the OSAS preachers have caused pretty much.

Now if we want to exhort one another to abstain from sin, I'm in. But if we use salvation or the giving of eternal life, as the motivator for such, then we depart from the truth.

That's like saying, "Let's not sin only for the sake of not sinning." We don't try to keep away from sin just for the sake of not sinning. We do so because of our walk in Christ Jesus by Faith towards righteousness, and to be counted pefect by Him. If it were like you say, then all those outside of belief on Christ Jesus that try to keep away from sin would be successful in doing their 'own' salvation. At the Judgment they could be just in saying, "But Lord, I walked without sin almost perfectly, and when I found myself sinning, I corrected it on my own without You?" What would our Lord Jesus say to that? Obviously, our Lord Jesus doesn't want us to do that walk without Him (as if anyone could do it on their own anyway). And I know some good people of excellent moral character that would be great examples of a believer on Christ Jesus, yet they refuse Him still, and actually refuse to believe God exists at all. So we cannot just separate the walk of a believer on Christ apart from that Promise you mention.

 

[JPPT1974]

At our church to make the long, long story short, we are facing changes as rather not get into it. As only God should know. And the people that are in this. As our church is in need of God's holiness, love, and really needs us to lean on Him. As He will and can! It all comes from Him alone! Just keep our church in thought and prayer! Thank you appreciate it!

 

[aspen]

It is interesting to me that the Bible says nothing about asking Jesus into our hearts - instead Jesus talks about God bringing His Kingdom into our hearts. It seems to me that if we are stuck in doctrine and refusing to live like Christ by serving God and neighbor in love - the Kingdom has not been delivered yet and we need to be in prayer Thy Kingdom Come; Thy Will Be Done, On Earth As It Is In Heaven.

If the Kingdom of God is not present in our hearts now - how can we assume we will be present in His Kingdom after death? Jesus told us Christians are known by their fruit. Our fruit is living out the Kingdom of God in our hearts by loving God and neighbor in all circumstances.

 

[williemac]

Veteran. I would appreciate if you would pay more attention to what I am saying and not put words in my mouth. You will never find any place in my replies where I defend or promote osas. So you don't need to convince me.
As far as this quote from your above reply: you have to leave out a whole lot of New Testament Scripture to hold to that erroneous idea that a believer cannot fall away to lose their salvation. Try Hebrews 6 for size, or 2 Pet.2:20-22, or Galatians 5, and maybe Heb.12:8 again. I presently have a family member that once was a believer on Christ, was baptized, but has for years strongly rebelled against Him in iniquity, not even caring anymore. Now if he repents and makes a change, I'm sure our Lord Jesus will forgive Him. But the time is short, as he's near death for his acts, and Christ's coming is around the corner today. One can completely cut themselves off from The Lord if they so choose.
There you go misquoting me. I never said a believer cannot fall away. Go back and read what I said, please. I said exactly what you are saying.
As for this mumble jumble: That's like saying, "Let's not sin only for the sake of not sinning." We don't try to keep away from sin just for the sake of not sinning. We do so because of our walk in Christ Jesus by Faith towards righteousness, and to be counted pefect by Him. If it were like you say, then all those outside of belief on Christ Jesus that try to keep away from sin would be successful in doing their 'own' salvation. At the Judgment they could be just in saying, "But Lord, I walked without sin almost perfectly, and when I found myself sinning, I corrected it on my own without You?" What would our Lord Jesus say to that? Obviously, our Lord Jesus doesn't want us to do that walk without Him (as if anyone could do it on their own anyway). And I know some good people of excellent moral character that would be great examples of a believer on Christ Jesus, yet they refuse Him still, and actually refuse to believe God exists at all. So we cannot just separate the walk of a believer on Christ apart from that Promise you mention.
What? How does that reply to what I said? It does not. What I said was that while it is good to exhort each other to abstain from sin, we cannot truthfully say that in doing this, one will save himself. I don't doubt that there are moral people out there who are not Christians. In fact I know that there are. I never said that their morality would get them saved. How is it that you are rebutting things that I haven't even declared? In fact, I am insisting that it is not by moral behavior that one gets saved or stays saved. If you must argue with me just for the sake of arguing, then please at least pay attention to what I am saying.

But I did see you declare that one can fall away from Christ back into iniquity. I would not disagree with that if we can agree that for this to occur, one must first fall from the desire to have anything to do with Jesus. Sin by itself cannot cause this. And furthermore, sin will not cause Jesus to turn His back on or reject or condemn a believer in Him.
And yes, we can indeed separate the walk of a believer apart from the promise I mentioned. The promise was made by Jesus and I say we should accept Him at His word and not add to it. He did not say that a person is required to have a certain walk in order to not come into judgment. John 5:24 speaks only of faith.
As well, this quote of yours bears replying to: What true believer on Christ Jesus would object to that Promise? But then again, what true believer would do a cut and paste of that verse only out of The Bible while rejecting the rest of our Lord's and His Apostle's teachings throughout God's Word? Sounds like you're wanting to leave out the rest of the New Testament Scripture when we cannot. Once one comes to Christ and believes and is baptized, why even continue... in Church anymore afterwards? You could just go out and live your life how you wanted. That's the condition the OSAS preachers have caused pretty much.

Hey. You and I both know that many who attend church are not even saved. But in my defense, I have been on this site a long time and have quoted from plenty of the new testament, so I will not let you get away with suggesting I am a one verse kind of person. But I will say that if we have one verse that says something, then how is it that people can formulate a doctrine that denies what that one verse says? This one verse (John5:24) is backed up by plenty more.

Faith does not exist just for its own sake. It has a purpose. This purpose is to receive from God. I am not talking about empty faith. I am talking about the process by which a person comes to Christ. It includes the acknowledgment of the sacrifice of Jesus for sin. I find it incredulous that anyone can mention a hypothetical situation where one has a genuine realization that he needs a savior, comes to Christ for salvation, receives the new birth and the Holy Spirit, and all the while has an agenda that he just wants to live a life of sin after all that. You assume the worst of people don't you? I might wonder just what it says about what lies in your own heart, if I didn't know any better. Do you somehow think that sin is a wonderful experience that God wants to keep us from? No? Then why would you put that mindset on a hypothetical true believer?

 

[veteran]

Veteran. I would appreciate if you would pay more attention to what I am saying and not put words in my mouth. You will never find any place in my replies where I defend or promote osas. So you don't need to convince me.
As far as this quote from your above reply: you have to leave out a whole lot of New Testament Scripture to hold to that erroneous idea that a believer cannot fall away to lose their salvation. Try Hebrews 6 for size, or 2 Pet.2:20-22, or Galatians 5, and maybe Heb.12:8 again. I presently have a family member that once was a believer on Christ, was baptized, but has for years strongly rebelled against Him in iniquity, not even caring anymore. Now if he repents and makes a change, I'm sure our Lord Jesus will forgive Him. But the time is short, as he's near death for his acts, and Christ's coming is around the corner today. One can completely cut themselves off from The Lord if they so choose.
There you go misquoting me. I never said a believer cannot fall away. Go back and read what I said, please. I said exactly what you are saying.
As for this mumble jumble: That's like saying, "Let's not sin only for the sake of not sinning." We don't try to keep away from sin just for the sake of not sinning. We do so because of our walk in Christ Jesus by Faith towards righteousness, and to be counted pefect by Him. If it were like you say, then all those outside of belief on Christ Jesus that try to keep away from sin would be successful in doing their 'own' salvation. At the Judgment they could be just in saying, "But Lord, I walked without sin almost perfectly, and when I found myself sinning, I corrected it on my own without You?" What would our Lord Jesus say to that? Obviously, our Lord Jesus doesn't want us to do that walk without Him (as if anyone could do it on their own anyway). And I know some good people of excellent moral character that would be great examples of a believer on Christ Jesus, yet they refuse Him still, and actually refuse to believe God exists at all. So we cannot just separate the walk of a believer on Christ apart from that Promise you mention.
What? How does that reply to what I said? It does not. What I said was that while it is good to exhort each other to abstain from sin, we cannot truthfully say that in doing this, one will save himself. I don't doubt that there are moral people out there who are not Christians. In fact I know that there are. I never said that their morality would get them saved. How is it that you are rebutting things that I haven't even declared? In fact, I am insisting that it is not by moral behavior that one gets saved or stays saved. If you must argue with me just for the sake of arguing, then please at least pay attention to what I am saying.

But I did see you declare that one can fall away from Christ back into iniquity. I would not disagree with that if we can agree that for this to occur, one must first fall from the desire to have anything to do with Jesus. Sin by itself cannot cause this. And furthermore, sin will not cause Jesus to turn His back on or reject or condemn a believer in Him.
And yes, we can indeed separate the walk of a believer apart from the promise I mentioned. The promise was made by Jesus and I say we should accept Him at His word and not add to it. He did not say that a person is required to have a certain walk in order to not come into judgment. John 5:24 speaks only of faith.
As well, this quote of yours bears replying to: What true believer on Christ Jesus would object to that Promise? But then again, what true believer would do a cut and paste of that verse only out of The Bible while rejecting the rest of our Lord's and His Apostle's teachings throughout God's Word? Sounds like you're wanting to leave out the rest of the New Testament Scripture when we cannot. Once one comes to Christ and believes and is baptized, why even continue... in Church anymore afterwards? You could just go out and live your life how you wanted. That's the condition the OSAS preachers have caused pretty much.

Hey. You and I both know that many who attend church are not even saved. But in my defense, I have been on this site a long time and have quoted from plenty of the new testament, so I will not let you get away with suggesting I am a one verse kind of person. But I will say that if we have one verse that says something, then how is it that people can formulate a doctrine that denies what that one verse says? This one verse (John5:24) is backed up by plenty more.

Faith does not exist just for its own sake. It has a purpose. This purpose is to receive from God. I am not talking about empty faith. I am talking about the process by which a person comes to Christ. It includes the acknowledgment of the sacrifice of Jesus for sin. I find it incredulous that anyone can mention a hypothetical situation where one has a genuine realization that he needs a savior, comes to Christ for salvation, receives the new birth and the Holy Spirit, and all the while has an agenda that he just wants to live a life of sin after all that. You assume the worst of people don't you? I might wonder just what it says about what lies in your own heart, if I didn't know any better. Do you somehow think that sin is a wonderful experience that God wants to keep us from? No? Then why would you put that mindset on a hypothetical true believer?

This kind of statement you made below is wrong, and is what I addressed:

Willemac:
There are several threads here where some are insisting that sin can cause one to lose his salvation. This is false. Zero fruit, or the falling from faith, are the only two things that can accomplish this kind of loss.

A believer can lose their salvation through sin specifically, which is what the idea of falling away is about. Apostle Paul showed in Gal.5 and 1 Cor.6 certain sins that can keep one out of the Kingdom of God. Falling away is about walking in sins of the flesh he mentioned there in Galatians vs. walking by The Spirit. Obviously, we as believers on Christ Jesus should not be found guilty of sins unto death like murder, etc. The sins you speak of most likely are sins not unto death. The New Testament does a good job of revealing the difference between walking per the flesh vs. per The Spirit. It's in black and white.

Regardless of what you believe about the OSAS doctrine from men, this is the problem it creates by allowing a sinner to continue to walk according to their flesh while still believing on Christ and thinking they are saved. An example are some Churches that allow the continued sin of homosexuality while preaching they are saved, when that's one of the sins of the flesh that Apostle Paul iterated that will keep one out of God's Kingdom.

I am not trying to infer that you are guilty of holding to the once saved, always saved doctrine of men. But you do have certain ideas that can lead up to that kind of thinking.

 

[williemac]

This kind of statement you made below is wrong, and is what I addressed:



A believer can lose their salvation through sin specifically, which is what the idea of falling away is about. Apostle Paul showed in Gal.5 and 1 Cor.6 certain sins that can keep one out of the Kingdom of God. Falling away is about walking in sins of the flesh he mentioned there in Galatians vs. walking by The Spirit. Obviously, we as believers on Christ Jesus should not be found guilty of sins unto death like murder, etc. The sins you speak of most likely are sins not unto death. The New Testament does a good job of revealing the difference between walking per the flesh vs. per The Spirit. It's in black and white.

Regardless of what you believe about the OSAS doctrine from men, this is the problem it creates by allowing a sinner to continue to walk according to their flesh while still believing on Christ and thinking they are saved. An example are some Churches that allow the continued sin of homosexuality while preaching they are saved, when that's one of the sins of the flesh that Apostle Paul iterated that will keep one out of God's Kingdom.

I am not trying to infer that you are guilty of holding to the once saved, always saved doctrine of men. But you do have certain ideas that can lead up to that kind of thinking.

Thank you for clarifying the stance you are taking. As far as osas, the ideas that can supposedly lead to that kind of thinking, are ideas that originate from the words in scripture. Words such as guarantee, assurance. How can we have either of those if our eternal life is up to our own efforts to get us saved? In fact, the ideas that you are representing can also lead to the kind of thinking that we are saved by works.
But as far as the passages you refer to, they do not say that a believer will fall away by walking in sin. They merely list the kinds of things that men will be judged for. However, this is why I brought up John 5:24. We cannot be judged for the sins of the flesh.
In fact, if you read through Galatians, you will find that Paul equates the flesh with the law. What he says is that keeping the law for justification is of the flesh. It is not just sin that is of the flesh. Paul says that law keeping is equivalent to falling from grace.

I marvel that you are willing to use extreme examples such as homosexuality, when many believers have other less obvious sin such as lust of the flesh in their eating habits and even addiction to smoking. These are not sins? James states that to be found guilty of just one sin, a person has the entire guilt of the law placed on them. A smoker is therefore also guilty of homosexuality. This is the harshness of judgment for those who will be judged.

The two sides to this debate are this: One side says that falling away is the result of sinning. The other side says that falling away is the result of adding works of law to faith, for righteousness and justification. The one side says that believers can be judged as sinners. The other side says that through faith, this judgment has already been levied onto the old man, who is crucified with Christ and is already considered dead.

I quoted several passages on this, not the least of which is Rom.10:9,10. Faith and confession are the only things mentioned concerning salvation. Any works done are after the fact, and do not lead up to, the gift of life. Off to work now, We can pick this up later if you wish. Blessings, Howie

 

[John Zain]

I am really truly bless to see that most of you reject that doctrine from the pits of Hell
... which is OSAS!

When Jesus talked about the road being narrow,
I used to think He meant in relation to the whole world.
But, now I see that it also applies to those in Christian churches as well.

There are Christian forums where you are only welcome, if you are OSAS!
Scary stuff, this!
Kinda reminds me of Paul's working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I am really truly bless to see that most of you reject that doctrine from the pits of Hell
... which is OSAS!

When Jesus talked about the road being narrow,
I used to think He meant in relation to the whole world.
But, now I see that it also applies to those in Christian churches as well.

There are Christian forums where you are only welcome, if you are OSAS!
Scary stuff, this!
Kinda reminds me of Paul's working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

I am curious what makes you hate other christians so much ?
How many of them do you actually know ?
Or is it just some junk going on inside your own heart ?

 

[williemac]

I am really truly bless to see that most of you reject that doctrine from the pits of Hell
... which is OSAS!

When Jesus talked about the road being narrow,
I used to think He meant in relation to the whole world.
But, now I see that it also applies to those in Christian churches as well.

There are Christian forums where you are only welcome, if you are OSAS!
Scary stuff, this!
Kinda reminds me of Paul's working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

Paul did not work for his salvation. He talked about working it out. Many opposers of osas also take a wrong turn by suggesting that salvation can be lost because of sin, or by suggesting that one has to work to keep it. The fact is that life came to us as a free gift by way of faith and the only way it can be lost is if one falls from faith, or if one falls from grace by going back to justification by law. Life will not be taken away from us by God through judgment. (John 5:24)
The most alarming thing for me about many opposers of osas is when what they are preaching diminishes or even denies that we can have assurance. In fact, the Holy Spirit is given as a guarantee of our inheritance, meaning that though we can reject the guarantee, God will not withdraw it. If He did, it would not have been a guarantee in the first place.
So as far as God is concerned, He assures osas as long as we are willing to receive it.
And therein lies a serious issue. There are many who would seek to draw others into a leavened relationship with God, mixing grace with works, for salvation. Those who buy into this can certainly walk away from grace. It then becomes somewhat self fulfilling.

As far as the road being narrow, Jesus was telling it the way it was before His ministry. This in no way means that it was destined to always be that way. He came to render life easy to attain. This was His mission,through His death and resurrection. He fixed the problem. We can see the result of it in John's revelation of a multitude standing before the throne that no one could number. But some continue to stubbornly ignore this vision, a fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. This is a huge number. Life has to be easy, not hard, to attain if this promise it to be fulfilled.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

As far as the road being narrow, Jesus was telling it the way it was before His ministry. This in no way means that it was destined to always be that way. He came to render life easy to attain. This was His mission,through His death and resurrection. He fixed the problem. We can see the result of it in John's revelation of a multitude standing before the throne that no one could number. But some continue to stubbornly ignore this vision, a fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. This is a huge number. Life has to be easy, not hard, to attain if this promise it to be fulfilled.

I would add the clarification (for the sake of avoiding a stumbling block) that the full attainment of eternal life is by no means easy; it is secured through much difficulty due to our old natures and the world we live in. Access to eternal life, though, is easy because it is an inward river of life that is always there to drink from freely.

 

[John Zain]

Many opposers of osas also take a wrong turn by suggesting that salvation can be lost because of sin ...

Then what is this passage all about? ... I'm all ears, er ... eyes.

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

[SIZE=10pt]Okay, I'll answer for you ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]We need to be continually cleansed of our sins! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And what happens if we are not?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Answer: We are classified as habitual sinners![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And the result of this is explained in passages such as ...[/SIZE]

Rev 21:7-8
“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters,
and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7-8)

Welcome to the real world of Christianity.

This editor continues to be beyond comprehension!

 

[williemac]

I would add the clarification (for the sake of avoiding a stumbling block) that the full attainment of eternal life is by no means easy; it is secured through much difficulty due to our old natures and the world we live in. Access to eternal life, though, is easy because it is an inward river of life that is always there to drink from freely.

This is exactly the kind of thought that I have been here to challenge. I give scripture to support what I said. I suppose you did not take the time to read them. But really, how can access to something be easy, but then after that it becomes hard? This is a contradiction. What ever happened to the promise that He who began a good work in us will complete it? (Phil.1:6) Do you suppose it is hard for Jesus? Paul didn't. Why do you suggest that it is up to us to complete the work?
Here is the question Paul asked the Galatians. (3:3).." Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" Keep in mind that what Paul was referring to was their attempt to be justified by the law. This involves the flesh. The flesh wants to justify itself.
The way it works is that the old man of the flesh is considered dead, crucified with Christ. However the nature is still within us, in our bodies. But the new man is alive and is already righteous and holy (Ephesians 4:24). We are told to put on the new man and put off the old. But this is not done in order to secure what we have. It is done to bear the fruit of it. The only thing we need to do to secure what we have is to remain in the same frame of mind that acquired what we have. Faith. Works do not secure our life. Works do not add to our perfection. We are complete in Him already. (Col.2:10) . The work that Jesus has begun will be completed at the resurrection, when we are further changed and receive a new body. This new body will be free from worldly, fleshly, and sinful influences. In the meantime we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7).." that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us".

We are not to place our confidence in the flesh. If what you say is true, that we secure our life through our present living, then our confidence will be in this (in the flesh) and not in Christ. What kind of confidence would that produce? I will tell you. It will be a constant pressure. It will be there one day and gone the next. This is not secure at all. This is not to be the source of our assurance. And it certainly does not add to the guarantee that the Holy Spirit is within us to give us.

Then what is this passage all about? ... I'm all ears, er ... eyes.

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

[SIZE=10pt]Okay, I'll answer for you ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]We need to be continually cleansed of our sins! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And what happens if we are not?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Answer: We are classified as habitual sinners![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And the result of this is explained in passages such as ...[/SIZE]

Rev 21:7-8
“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters,
and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7-8)

Welcome to the real world of Christianity.

I will gladly answer this. 1John 1:9 is vastly misunderstood as being applied to the believer. John wrote his letter for various reasons, one of which was to address and correct some gnostic thinking that was around at the time. Some of it is is similar to some present day thought that there is no such thing as sin. This is dangerous because one will not come to the cross for forgiveness of that which he does not acknowledge. Without conviction of sin, there can be no salvation from it. Therefore John addressed this and in ch.1:9, he was speaking of the salvation process. In it he states that one will be cleansed from all unrighteousness.
Then, in the very next sentence (2:1), he addresses the believer and exhorts him to not sin. ..." but if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous".
The truth is that we are perpetually cleansed. It is not necessary to continuously come to God over and over again to be cleansed over and over again. You said that we are continuously cleansed. However, this is not what the passage would suggest if it were to be taken as an instruction for the believer. The passage specifically says that through the confession of sin the person is forgiven and cleansed. This more than implies that that unforgiveness is present. However, we do not get saved, lost saved lost, over and over.

The continuous cleansing that you suggest is automatically done by virtue of the truth presented in the next verse (2:1). If it needed to be done over and over, this would not be called continuous, it would be called repeated. There is a difference between continuing something and repeating it.

As for overcoming, here is John's input: (1John5:4).." For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-OUR FAITH."
Blessings, Howie

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is exactly the kind of thought that I have been here to challenge. I give scripture to support what I said. I suppose you did not take the time to read them. But really, how can access to something be easy, but then after that it becomes hard? This is a contradiction.

Receiving an inheritance is easy; holding onto it afterwards is not so easy. The inheritance still belongs to the inheritor, but many influences will seek to steal it.

For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:17-18

A better translation of scarcely is probably with difficult toils. IMO it means if the righteous endure many difficulties (correctional judgments, persecutions, etc.) while holding fast their salvation, what will be the end of the ungodly who make no efforts.

G3433 μόλις molis (mol'-is) adv.
1. with difficulty
Root(s): G3425

G3425 μόγις mogis (mog'-is) adv.
1. with difficulty
[adverb from a primary mogos "toil"]

 

[veteran]

Thank you for clarifying the stance you are taking. As far as osas, the ideas that can supposedly lead to that kind of thinking, are ideas that originate from the words in scripture. Words such as guarantee, assurance. How can we have either of those if our eternal life is up to our own efforts to get us saved? In fact, the ideas that you are representing can also lead to the kind of thinking that we are saved by works.
But as far as the passages you refer to, they do not say that a believer will fall away by walking in sin. They merely list the kinds of things that men will be judged for. However, this is why I brought up John 5:24. We cannot be judged for the sins of the flesh.
In fact, if you read through Galatians, you will find that Paul equates the flesh with the law. What he says is that keeping the law for justification is of the flesh. It is not just sin that is of the flesh. Paul says that law keeping is equivalent to falling from grace.

I marvel that you are willing to use extreme examples such as homosexuality, when many believers have other less obvious sin such as lust of the flesh in their eating habits and even addiction to smoking. These are not sins? James states that to be found guilty of just one sin, a person has the entire guilt of the law placed on them. A smoker is therefore also guilty of homosexuality. This is the harshness of judgment for those who will be judged.

The two sides to this debate are this: One side says that falling away is the result of sinning. The other side says that falling away is the result of adding works of law to faith, for righteousness and justification. The one side says that believers can be judged as sinners. The other side says that through faith, this judgment has already been levied onto the old man, who is crucified with Christ and is already considered dead.

I quoted several passages on this, not the least of which is Rom.10:9,10. Faith and confession are the only things mentioned concerning salvation. Any works done are after the fact, and do not lead up to, the gift of life. Off to work now, We can pick this up later if you wish. Blessings, Howie

Well, now I truly believe you are fully in that OSAS doctrine of men. One cannot read Galatians 5, 1 Timothy 1, and 1 Cor.6 by Apostle Paul and in any way equate walking in those sins of the flesh and still inherit the Kingdom of God. One has to lie to theirself to get the view you have on what Paul taught there.


1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(KJV)


Heb 6:4-12
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward His name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
(KJV)


The idea is simple. Christ's Promise of Salvation is a free gift, we cannot earn it. It starts when one believes on The Father through Him and is baptized in His Name, then sins 'that are past' are remitted (Rom.3:25). After that we are expected to continue our walk in Him, repenting and asking Him forgiveness when we mess up thereafter (1 John 1). Whether or not He will forgive one of His for stepping over the line to continue to walk in those sins which Apostle Paul said will keep one out of the Kingdom of God is still up to Him. Still, Apostle Paul covered the matter in black and white as a warning to the brethren, and it is New Covenant Doctrine. Whether the believer chooses to heed that or not is up to them, just as one wanting to be deceived in those things or not is up to the individual.