A message for those of you expecting to go to heaven

[John Zain]

I will say this much about Codex Vaticanus. It is documented in the manuscript itself that scribes altered the text.

IMO, worse than your deal with the covering over of past sins
... is the incredibly important problem of sanctification.

Some translations of a particular verse have "were (or are) sanctified".
Others have "are being sanctified", i.e. progressive sanctification.

IMO, we have both positional (set apart) sanctification and progressive sanctification.

Would you consider thoroughly investigating this for everyone?

BTW, I agree with you ... our greatest heroes are the unbelievers Hort & Westcott, LOL

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

IMO, we have both positional (set apart) sanctification and progressive sanctification.
Would you consider thoroughly investigating this for everyone?

Instead of me doing a massive study, why don't we work together on it? Give me some verses that concern you, or you want some deeper insight into, and I'll do some research on this end.

 

[Warrior]

Stop with all the argument and read your bible

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[John Zain]

IMO, we have both positional (set apart) sanctification and progressive sanctification.
Would you consider thoroughly investigating this for everyone?

Instead of me doing a massive study, why don't we work together on it?
Give me some verses that concern you, or you want some deeper insight into, and I'll do some research on this end.

Okay, let's start here ... From the NKJV ...

• “… God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit
and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel …” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

• “… to us who are being saved it (the gospel) is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)

• “For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one …” (Hebrews 2:11)

• “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)

• "For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Okay, let's start here ... From the NKJV ...

• “… God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit
and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel …” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)
• “… to us who are being saved it (the gospel) is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
• “For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one …” (Hebrews 2:11)
• “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)
• "For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

The Greek word translated sanctified:

G37 ἁγιάζω hagiazo (hag-ee-ad'-zo) v.
1. to make holy
[from G40]

G40 ἅγιος hagios (hag'-ee-os) adj.
1. sacred

Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words
“to make holy” (from hagios, “holy”), signifies to set apart for God, to sanctify, to make a person or thing the opposite of koinos, “common”

Based on the above, a possible definition of holiness is anti-world.

It appears that we will have to delve into the OT to actually determine what holiness is. Paul borrowed this word from an existing Greek word, and coined his own meaning (that I'm sure aligns with the OT meaning of holiness).

Wuest's word studies from the Greek New Testament
Paul addresses his letter “to the saints.” The word is hagios (ἁγιος). ... Paul took it right out of the terminology of the pagan Greek religions. He had to. There were no other terms which he could use so long as he was confined to the Greek language. There it meant “devoted to the gods.” For instance, a Greek worshipper would bring an offering to the god as a gift. He devoted it to that god. Or, the Greeks would build a magnificent temple and devote it to a certain god. The building was thereby set apart from any secular use, and separated to a religious one. It was consecrated to the worship of that particular Greek god. The building was therefore holy, holy, not in our sense of the term, pure, for the Greek temples were filled with immoral practices that were part of their religious worship (the temple at Corinth housing 3000 “sacred” harlots), but holy in the sense of being non-secular, and therefore religious in nature, set apart for the worship of the Greek divinities. The term was also used of persons who were devoted to the service of a god, separated to the service of the god, thus hagios (ἁγιος), consecrated, non-secular in character, but on the other hand, distinctively religious in nature and occupation. This is the genius of the Greek word translated “saint.” The verbal forms hagizō (ἁγιζω) and hagiazō (ἁγιαζω) mean “to hallow, make sacred,” especially by burning a sacrifice. The foregoing estimate of hagios (ἁγιος) is taken from Greek-English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott.
...

We turn now to the Biblico-Theological Lexicon of Herman Cremer which specializes in the great doctrinal and theological words of the Greek New Testament. Cremer says that hagios (ἁγιος) “is the rarest of five synonyms which the Greeks had to express the idea of holiness, so far at least as they knew such an idea. In biblical Greek on the other hand, of the Old as well as the New Testament, it is the only word by which the biblical conception of holiness is expressed, that conception which pervade the Bible throughout, which molds the whole divine revelation, and in which, we may say with perfect truth, are centered the fundamental and leading principles and aims of that revelation. What constitutes the essence of holiness in the biblical sense is not primarily contained in any of the above named synonyms (hieros, hosios, semnos, hagios (ἱερος, ὁσιος, σεμνος, ἁγιος)); the conception is of purely biblical growth, and whatever the Greeks surmised and thought concerning the holiness of Divinity in any sense remotely similar to that in which Holy Scripture speaks of it, they had not one distinct word for it, least of all did they express it in any of the terms in question.… As Greek of itself did not possess the right word for it, the only term presenting itself as in any degree appropriate—hagios (ἁγιος)—had to be filled and coined afresh with a new meaning; and thus hagios (ἁγιος) is one of the words wherein the radical influence, the transforming and newly fashioning power of revealed religion is most clearly seen. Of all the ideas which, within the world subjected to the influence of Christianity or in the modern languages, are bound up in the word holy, none are to be found in the ancient tongues, Greek or Latin, in the terms above named, save those of ‘the sublime,’ ‘the consecrated,’ ‘the venerable.’ The main element—the moral—is utterly wanting. Hence it is not merely a topic of linguistic interest; it is a significant moral phenomenon which here presents itself to our inquiry.”

 

[John Zain]

The Greek word translated sanctified:

Based on the above, a possible definition of holiness is anti-world.

It appears that we will have to delve into the OT to actually determine what holiness is. Paul borrowed this word from an existing Greek word, and coined his own meaning (that I'm sure aligns with the OT meaning of holiness).

Okay, so far so good ... but in the verses I gave,
are the believers sanctified (set apart) once and that's the end of it,
or are they also being continually sanctified, as in a process?

From what I've seen the different translations flip flop from verse to verse.
As if the context changes their translation?
What a mess! ... especially with the critical importance regarding OSAS.

I mean ... are born-again believers fully sanctified ONCE, or not?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I mean ... are born-again believers fully sanctified ONCE, or not?

Yes they are. However, we live in an unclean world in bodies that are yet corrupt, and are constantly being bombarded with ungodly images that impinge upon our minds. These require the constant flow of cleansing water of the word in spirit.

Look at it this way. The priests who served in the tabernacle were sanctified. However, they continually had to wash themselves with water in the bronze basin by the altar of burnt offering in order to cleanse themselves from the defilement incurred by handling the sin offerings (because they were sin). If they did not sanctify themselves through this cleansing, they would die.

Thou shalt also make a laver [of] brass, and his foot [also of] brass, to wash [withal]: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein. For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat: When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD: So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, [even] to him and to his seed throughout their generations. Exodus 30:18-21

 

[John Zain]

• “… God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit
and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel …” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)
Initially, one is sanctified (set apart) NOT by the Holy Spirit ... so IMO this refers to the on-going process.

• “… to us who are being saved it (the gospel) is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
Does this refer to those who are being saved daily, or to those who are in the process of being saved?

• “For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one …” (Hebrews 2:11)
Does this refer to those who are being saved (and sanctified) daily?

• “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)
Does this refer to those who are being saved (and sanctified) daily?

• "For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)
This familiar wording refers to BACs being led daily.

CR ... IMO, your responses may be tainted by your personal biases.
So, I am being wary.
Also, you're not addressing the main point, which is the differing translations,
i.e. ARE sanctified (past?) ... versus ... ARE BEING sanctified (present & future).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

• “… God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit
and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel …” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)
Initially, one is sanctified (set apart) NOT by the Holy Spirit ... so IMO this refers to the on-going process.

• “… to us who are being saved it (the gospel) is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
Does this refer to those who are being saved daily, or to those who are in the process of being saved?

• “For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one …” (Hebrews 2:11)
Does this refer to those who are being saved (and sanctified) daily?

• “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)
Does this refer to those who are being saved (and sanctified) daily?

• "For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)
This familiar wording refers to BACs being led daily.

CR ... IMO, your responses may be tainted by your personal biases.
So, I am being wary.
Also, you're not addressing the main point, which is the differing translations,
i.e. ARE sanctified (past?) ... versus ... ARE BEING sanctified (present & future).

All of the above refer to the whole process. You cannot separate initial sanctification from ongoing sanctification, except in the sense that ongoing sanctification preserves initial sanctification.

Believe whatever you want. I would suggest though, for your own sake, that you address the purpose of the brass laver, because it's message is crucial to understanding sanctification.

 

[williemac]

Greetings. In regards to the above post (#108)
You may want to check out a few translations concerning Heb.10:14. In several, the word "being" is not there. In others, it is in italics. Words are put in italics to indicate that they have been inserted by the translators and are not in the original text. Thus, He has perfected forever, those who are sanctified. However, why would we get into a dispute over this when right in the same sentence we can see that "perfected forever" is in the past tense? I think this ought not to be ignored or passed over. He has done it....forever! So, being sanctified or not being sanctified is really irrelevant to the subject at hand. Eternal life is just that: eternal. The new man has been created righteous and holy (Eph.4:24). In vs. 17, there is a reminder of the covenant promise..."their sins and lawless deeds, I will remember no more".

As well, in quoting Rom.3:25, why make the classic error that many do when using scripture to make a point that has already been concluded? They break the first rule of thumb. They quote out of context. It would also help to examine several translations and even to go to the original language. The point that Paul was making was not to say that only a person's past sins are forgiven. This is not even the wording. Lets read vs.25 along with vs.26.. (NKJ)...." whom God sent forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate AT THE PRESENT TIME His righteousness, that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"
The passage does not say God forgave the sins previously committed. It says God passed them over. This is not the same as forgive, nor the same as remission (removal). But the next verse gives the perspective in comparing that with what Paul called "this present time".
This passage is a comparison with the time before the cross with the time afterward. It is a slap in the face of the revelation that Paul had and shared, to say that God only forgives a persons sins previous to salvation. How can God perfect us forever if that is the case? You want to teach contradictory messages? It shows a lack of understanding, if nothing else.

 

[John Zain]

I'll have to check into the brass laver.

Understandable confusion re: sanctification has arisen due to translations.
And I'm talking about varying translations of several verses.

Half say people ARE sanctified, which indicates it's a done deal.
Half say people ARE BEING sanctified, which may indicate an on-going process.
But, this could also mean new people are being sanctified daily (as in a done deal).

I suspect that looking closely @ the Greek could clear this up.
That's what I thought CR was promising to do.

And the whole point of this is ...
While BACs are in the process of being sanctified and being saved,
they have the free-will to fall away from the faith and enjoy a long walk in their past sins.
That this is possible is readily revealed in da NT warnings!

Does anyone understand what I'm talking about? Over and outski.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I suspect that looking closely @ the Greek could clear this up.
That's what I thought CR was promising to do.

I thought I made it clear that the Greek word for holiness is not that illuminating.

 

[williemac]

I'll have to check into the brass laver.

Understandable confusion re: sanctification has arisen due to translations.
And I'm talking about varying translations of several verses.

Half say people ARE sanctified, which indicates it's a done deal.
Half say people ARE BEING sanctified, which may indicate an on-going process.
But, this could also mean new people are being sanctified daily (as in a done deal).

I suspect that looking closely @ the Greek could clear this up.
That's what I thought CR was promising to do.

And the whole point of this is ...
While BACs are in the process of being sanctified and being saved,
they have the free-will to fall away from the faith and enjoy a long walk in their past sins.
That this is possible is readily revealed in da NT warnings!

Does anyone understand what I'm talking about? Over and outski.

If you care to read what I just posted on the subject of osas, I will not repeat it here. But I will say that a very common perception or theory is that the falling into sin is the equivalent of falling from faith. This is not true. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). In this world we are constantly bombarded with stimuli that our old man of the flesh relates with. The flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. God neither requires or expects us to win every battle. This may not sit well with some, but it is a fact. Jesus, in John 5:24, promised that through faith in Him, we have passed from death to life and will not come into judgment. Is that a warning? I suspect that some of those who use the word "warnings", feel that judgment is pending on those who have just a little too much sin in their life. I always counter that with the promise that whom He loves, He will chasten. God has rather chosen to correct bad behavior in His children, than to reject them for it.

Theoretically, one can certainly fall from faith. But it is much harder to lose one's eternal life than some would believe. As I shared earlier, why use the word "warnings"? Jesus said in John 3:16 that those who believe in Him would not perish but have everlasting life. Is this a promise or a warning? Both alternatives are mentioned. One might perish, or one might have everlasting life. Is He 'warning' people to believe in Him or promising that everlasting life is available through faith? It is all a matter of perspective and understanding as to how we are to achieve the promise of the free gift of life.

To ramble a bit, I have heard that when one loses a limb, he has something called phantom pains. This happens when the brain still functions as though the limb is not gone. One can feel pain in a place where there is no longer a place. This is how we can understand how the old man is still interfering with our new man. There is still the memory of all the addictions and habits that befell us before we met the Lord. But the truth is that the old man is declared to be dead, crucified with Christ. Past sins are forgiven by the sacrifice of Jesus. However, because any future sins that may arise are attributed to a dead man, they cannot be held against us.
This is an amazing and liberating truth.
Some people call this a potential license to sin. Hey, that is certainly what the flesh wants. However we are not merely flesh. We have a new man who is righteous and holy (Eph.4:7). This is the part of us that is eternal, has eternal life, and wants no part of sin. But the truth is that sin cannot satisfy. In fact it results in all the negative things that most people already have identified as the reason they came to God in the first place. So why worry about a potential license? It is nothing more than a license to be miserable and potentially suffer great loss. It was out of His compassion that God rescued us from sin. Sorry, but I don't see any compassion present with the so called "warnings". They are just a negative side of a promise. Whats with all this negativity? Where's the good news?

 

[John Zain]

But I will say that a very common perception or theory is that
the falling into sin is the equivalent of falling from faith. This is not true.

A partial handy-dandy list for those who do NOT believe a BAC can wander off and get lost ...

Matt 10:39 • He who loses his old sinful life for Jesus sake will find eternal life.
Matt 16:24-26 • Deny (lose) your old sinful life and follow Jesus to find eternal life.
Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive everyone, Father God will not forgive your sins.
John 12:25 • He who hates his life in this world will keep his life for eternity.
Rom 8:13 • Follow the Spirit and put to death the works of the flesh to gain eternal life.
1 Cor 6:9-10 • People committing these sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 15:2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to the word, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 7:10 • Godly sorrow leads Christians to repent, leading to salvation.
2 Cor 13:5 • Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
Gal 5:19-21 • Believers who practice such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 6:7-8 • Sowing to the flesh reaps corruption; sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
Eph 5:3-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
Col 3:5-6 • Disobedient believers committing such sins will incur the wrath of God.
1 Tim 5:11-12 • Some believers are condemed because they have cast off their first faith.
Heb 2:1-4 • How shall we escape, if we drift away and neglect so great a salvation?
Heb 3:14 • Partakers of Christ hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 6:4-8 • Those partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
Heb 10:26-27 • Believers who sin willfully can expect God’s fiery judgment.
Heb 10:36-39 • Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
Heb 12:14 • Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:8-9 • Believing, you will receive the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
2 Pet 1:10-11 • Be diligent to make your call and election sure, gaining the kingdom.
2 Pet 2:20-22 • A believer who returns to his sins is worse off than he was before.
Rev 2-3 • All 7 churches are warned to repent and be overcomers to be: given crown of life,
clothed in white garments, a pillar in the temple of God, not hurt by the second death, etc.
Rev 21:7-8 • People committing these sins will go into the lake of fire (the second death).
Rev 21:27 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15 • People committing these sins will not enter the New Jerusalem.

 

[Guestman]

The churches have taught that "all good people go to heaven", yet fail to grasp even the 1st inkling what is required for a person to gain entrance into heaven.

First off, these must be disciples of Jesus Christ, whereby the word "disciple", Greek matheteuo, means "to become a pupil" as well as "to disciple", thus showing that when a person becomes a disciple (or pupil) of Jesus, then must go and make disciples like Jesus, "going from house to house" and making known the "good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), teaching honest-hearted ones to ' observe all the things (Jesus) commanded.' (Matt 28:20)


How many of the churches go from "house to house" (Acts 20:20) preaching about God's heavenly kingdom or government ?(Isa 9:6) How many are following in Jesus "footsteps" (1 Pet 2:21) to "make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them" ?(Matt 28:19)


And 2nd, after a person has qualified as a Christian, these must be selected by God.(2 Thess 2:13) The prevailing view is that a person, in effect, chooses themselves. However, this is not true, for Jesus told James and John that "this sitting at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give (not theirs either), but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."(Matt 20:23) Jehovah God prepares and chooses who are to be of the "heavenly calling".(Heb 3:1)


And 3rd, Jesus further said: "Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom".(Luke 12:32) Hence, only a select few are chosen that are a "little flock" that combine to form God's kingdom and that number is 144,000.(Rev 7:4; 14:1)

For what purpose ? To rule as "kings and priests over the earth".(Rev. 5:9, 10) These have to be "counted worthy of the kingdom of God".(2 Thess 1:5) The churches have no clue of why these are to be "priests" in addition to being "kings".


Without the realization of the fulfillment of God's original purpose for the earth as a paradise for "meek" ones (Gen 1:28; Isa 55:10, 11), it is impossible to "mentally put the pieces together" (Greek syniemi as used by Jesus at Matthew 13 concerning grasping the "kingdom") as respects the "kingdom" and why those chosen become "kings and priests." Jesus told his apostles: "To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets ("mystery", KJV) of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted."(Matt 13:11)


Of those who take Jesus illustrations as just "a good story", Jesus said that such ones would be "looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it."(Matt 13:13, "get the sense of it", Greek syniemi) These would unable to assemble the "kingdom" in their minds and miss it completely. And why ?


Because "the heart of this people has grown unresponsive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them."(Matt 13:15)


To be able to grasp what the "kingdom" is, when the decision was made for it come into existence (Gen 3:15), what it's purpose is (Eph 1:9, 10), when it became operational (Rev 6:2; 12:5), who rules in it (Rev 5:9, 10; 14:1), and what must be accomplished before Jesus "hands over the kingdom to his God and Father" (1 Cor 15:24) requires being unbiased, but allowing the Bible to "speak for itself", rather than imposing one's "theology" on it, "forcing a square peg in a round hole."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

a lot of jehovah's false witness propaganda

Jehovah's false witnesses are some of the worst of the worst.

 

[williemac]

A partial handy-dandy list for those who do NOT believe a BAC can wander off and get lost ...

Matt 10:39 • He who loses his old sinful life for Jesus sake will find eternal life.
Matt 16:24-26 • Deny (lose) your old sinful life and follow Jesus to find eternal life.

These do not apply to post BAC, but rather pre BAC. And both references do not say 'old sinful' life in my translation. In fact, you have left out the first part of the verse, which is whoever desires to save his life will lose it. Obviously pre salvation.

Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive everyone, Father God will not forgive your sins.

This is an old covenant situation, as after the cross, we are told to forgive as we also have been forgiven. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. (Rom.5:6-8). God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them (2Cor.5:19)

1 Cor 6:9-10 • People committing these sins will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Vs.11.." And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, sanctified, justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God." Again. pre salvation. The solution given was washing, sanctification, and justification. These are all by faith. NOT WORKS


Shall I go on? The so called handy dandy list is a mixed bag of out of context , misquoted, and mis applied references. Most of them are not about a BAC wandering off and getting lost. However, one reference that applies correctly is Heb.6:6. It should be noted that whoever may qualify for this falling away, is lost forever with no chance of returning in this life. How many of those do we know about? I heard about one, once.

As well, the references in Revelation 21,22, speak of those who were never saved.

Blessings, Howie

 

[John Zain]

Blessings, Howie

Hi, Howie ... Keep up the good work.
Translation: I'm not going to argue with you.

Oh, one more thing ...
If you can find just ONE passage that you can agree with me on,
I've proven my point.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Hi, Howie ... Keep up the good work.
Translation: I'm not going to argue with you.

Me either, yet I don't agree with any of it.

 

[Guestman]

Jehovah's false witnesses are some of the worst of the worst.

Lets see how Jehovah's Witnesses stack up according to the Bible against the churches as well as others who "independent". Jesus made known the righteous requirements of Jehovah God, saying that "every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit....Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire."(Matt 7:17, 19)


Jesus further said: "Not everyone saying to me, ' Lord ! Lord ! ' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father."(Matt 7:21) Who are doing ' the will of the Father' ? What is God's will ? The apostle Paul wrote that God's "will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth."(1 Tim 2:4)


Who are the ones who are following in Jesus "footsteps" to go from "house to house" as he did ?(Acts 20:20) Who are the ones following Jesus words "to go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations....teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you" ?(Matt 28:19, 20)

Who are the one that is fulfilling Matthew 24:14, whereby Jesus said that "this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations", so that God can bring "the end" upon unresponsive and wicked mankind ?


Are the churches doing this work or someone who feels as an "independent" going among the masses of mankind to first preach the "good news of the kingdom", and then teach them what the "kingdom" is and what its requirements are in their home if they will listen ? Jehovah’s Witnesses spent some 1.7 billion hours following Jesus words and conducted some 8.5 million Bible studies in over 236 lands around the world in 2012.


Who are the ones teaching responsive people what the ‘ fruits of the kingdom ‘ are (Matt 21:43), so that they too can strip off the old personality” and put on the “new personality” that pleases Jehovah God ?(Col 3:9, 10) Who are the ones displaying the “fruitage of the spirit”, whereby they show genuine love and refuse to have any participation in the nations of the “world” military campaigns that often slaughters others, but remaining politically neutral as Jesus showed ?(John 15:19; 18:36)


Who are the ones that can be identified as loyal “witnesses” for Jehovah and are in the company of “so great a cloud of witnesses” of the past (Heb 12:1), such as Abraham who called upon the name of Jehovah, asking him: “Sovereign Lord Jehovah, what will you give me seeing that I am going childless ?”(Gen 15:2)


Or of Noah of which Genesis 7:1 says that “Jehovah said to Noah: “Go, you and all your household into the ark.” Or of the prophet Jeremiah, who said: “You are righteous, O Jehovah, when I make my complaint to you.”(Jer 12:1) All of the “so great a cloud of witnesses” honored Jehovah, using his name freely. Are the churches doing this ?