A Summary of God’s Plan re: Sin > Savior > Sanctification > Salvation

[John Zain]

This is what I see as being clearly taught in the Scriptures …
Man is born with an inherited sin nature, which separates him from our Holy God.
Man is born with a totally free will (as Adam & Eve were), thus he is not God’s robot.
In God’s old covenant, some of His people were obedient and lived righteously.
In God’s new covenant, He will give people a new heart and put His Spirit in them.
God chooses certain people to be given His free gift of grace-faith-salvation.
God attracts them with His Holy Spirit and with a simple easy-to-accept gospel.
The gospel warns them to first count the cost (everything!) of being Jesus’ disciple.
Those chosen are given a new nature, i.e. they are born again into new creations.
This is the starting point where they enter the narrow gate, which leads to heaven.
Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way leading to life, and there are few who find it.
They will have Satan’s demons, plus their own sinful flesh, working against them!
Those born-again are given Jesus’ righteousness, are declared justified, adopted by God.
Their past sins have been cleansed (but they must have future sins cleansed also).
They are set apart for the Holy Spirit to progressively sanctify them unto holiness.
The Holy Spirit of Truth will be their Helper and will teach and remind them of all things.
They are to be perfect and to pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
Those who are being led by the Holy Spirit, and doing what He says, are sons of God.
Those who are being led by the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the body will live.
They are to test themselves and work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
They are to examine themselves as to whether they are in the faith, or disqualified.
Jesus “knows” (has a personal relationship) with those who do the will of Father God.
Jesus “knows” (has a personal relationship) with those who are following/obeying Him.
Those who keep God’s commandments love Jesus and will be loved by Father God.
Those who keep God’s commandments will also have the Father and Jesus with them.
Those who hear and do Jesus’ sayings are the wise ones building on the rock foundation.
Are those doing God’s will in these things the ones that He considers to be “in Christ”?
Those not doing this are the foolish ones building on sand, which will cause a great fall.
God’s grace is not guaranteed; several “security” verses were only to “faithful” saints,
and some just assume one’s obedience. Cheap grace is wonderful: no accountability!
One can fall short of the grace of God, fall from grace, receive the grace of God in vain.
Believers are to take note that Lucifer (God’s #1) was rejected because of disobedience.
In the gospels, Jesus gave multitudes of warnings to everyone (to be heeded in future).
The epistle writers gave multitudes of warnings to the churches about losing salvation.
Jesus warned all 7 churches that they must be overcomers “as I also overcame”.

 

[Madad21]

God’s grace is not guaranteed; several “security” verses were only to “faithful” saints,
and some just assume one’s obedience. Cheap grace is wonderful: no accountability!
One can fall short of the grace of God, fall from grace, receive the grace of God in vain.
Believers are to take note that Lucifer (God’s #1) was rejected because of disobedience.
In the gospels, Jesus gave multitudes of warnings to everyone (to be heeded in future).
The epistle writers gave multitudes of warnings to the churches about losing salvation.
Jesus warned all 7 churches that they must be overcomers “as I also overcame”.

The only problem I find with your particular theology is this focus away from Christs taught assurances and resulting hope but instead on the loss of ones salvation.
What troubles me is not so much what is said here which is not entirely incorrect, but the obvious lack of acknowledged mercy also pointed out in scripture and the attitude of those who are the recipients of it.

We are all sinners including you and we all fall incredibly short, if not for the sanctifying blood of our Savoir our one and only redemption.

These are the ones who receive this grace = Hebrews 12:6 "because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
This Hebrews passage is how God deals with the meek.

What you call a "fall from grace" would have to be a turning away from God completely, because ones sight was never truly set on the promises of God.

At the gym I train in I also teach a lot of the young guys proper form and tech when it comes to tricky movements like the squat. The squat is a hard movement to get right and a constant rookie mistake is where these guys are looking during the movement. I tell them its like riding a bicycle, if they are riding along looking down at the ground in front of them they will find the bike leaning in which ever direction they are looking and eventually they will either end up up the back of a car or in a flower bed. But if they look to the horizon where they desire to be then they will be able to successfully navigate their way through all the obstacles. Its the same with squatting, where you fix your gaze your body will follow.

The problem I have with this theology you present is your gaze.
Although these points are important, its not what makes up a Christian life and journey. we focus on the promises of God and we push on through with our gaze focused on Jesus our most awesome reward.

Hebrews 12:1-2 "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

If we continue to focus on the possibility of losing Salvation our walk becomes stunted and out of fear we become paralyzed and therefore unfruitful, oppression by fear is not a sensible doctrine because it is debilitating and strangles out hope.

We have been given freedom from the penalty of sin and so we are free to walk with Jesus confident that although we make constant mistakes we can delight in the knowledge that God holds us in the palm of his hand and though we may stumble he will not let us fall. (Fall from grace)

Psalm 37:24
"though he may stumble, he will not fall, for the LORD upholds him with his hand."

Peace

 

[John Zain]

... what is said here which is not entirely incorrect ...

Gee, that's good to know. lol ... But, I applaud your post

This anti-OSAS thing started some months ago.
It started as a warning against Christians' thinking that they were automatically safe and secure.
IMO, Sripture says otherwise! ... Otherwise, why all of the many warnings about losing eternal life?

Elsewhere, they're making up excuses like:
The spirit goes to heaven, but only part of the soul may go.
Those who fell from grace were not really saved.
Excuse after excuse!

Note: I omitted the most important part ... Sincere repentance washes away one's daily sins!

 

[RANDOR]

Ouch.....that red text hurts my eyes....... B)

 

[Madad21]

Gee, that's good to know.

What I meant was not entirely incorrect in its focus of Gods Plan. Its only incorrect in the way that it doesn't incorporate hope, which is the point of the saving gospel. Its the light of men the hope we carry. The warnings are of course important and only a fool would disregard them but the warnings alone are certainly not the message itself.

Its good to be ever mindful of our steps but we can not hope to make it if our focus is not on the promises of God first.

Colossians 3:1-6
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

See how Paul's verse incorporates both Hope and stern warning, this verse both encourages me and keeps me accountable.

 

[Nomad]

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

No one looses the gift of salvation once it is given. Those who "fall away" were never saved in the first place. They are "pseudodelphoi" which means "false brethren." Our God uses means to accomplish his will. The warning passages serve as a means of grace to the faithful to remain faithful and not become presumptuous of God's grace. God also grants us the gift of "perseverance" which means believers will continue in faith and obedience till the end.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

It is God's will that no true believer will be lost.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

 

[John Zain]

See how Paul's verse incorporates both Hope and stern warning,
this verse both encourages me and keeps me accountable.

My posts are long enough ... you want me to double them by including the good stuff too?

No one looses the gift of salvation once it is given.

1Jn 2:19 -- one isolated situation
Mat 7:23 -- Jesus never knew (approved of) them ONLY because they did NOT do the will of Father God
(Don't feel bad ... 7:21 is ignored by everyone!)
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me ... Do these apply to you?

Note to the backwards M/F:
I've never seen a Canadian spell like this, butski 99% of Americans do!
So again, Nomad, don't feel bad, okay?

 

[Madad21]

My posts are long enough ... you want me to double them by including the good stuff too?

So is the Gospel message about death in sin or hope in Christ?
You constant re-occurring theme is loss of salvation.
Your doctrine is rooted in loss not gain.

People change because of the hope the gospel of Jesus Christ provides, not because of the stern warnings of scare mongers.

That was also the tactic readily employed by the Pharisees of Jesus's time, exacted against their own people for the gain of righteous piety, social standing and wealth.
Actually I read that it was common among the meek of that time to reside themselves to accept that they were to unrighteous to ever be deemed worthy enough to escape the pit. So they just went about their daily lives in the knowledge that only the truly righteous (not they) will inherit the promises of God.
That was until Jesus showed up and set them free.

Consider (Mark 11:12-21), in verse 18 it says that the people were all amazed at his teaching, do you know why that was?

 

[John Zain]

People change because of the hope the gospel of Jesus Christ provides,
not because of the stern warnings of scare mongers.

The BACs we're talking to (here) have already been changed (new nature + the Holy Spirit).
The entire Bible is full of warnings ... and you call me a scare-monger?
Meanwhile, everyone knows the gospel means "good news", but the churches don't warn anyone.

 

[Madad21]

The BACs we're talking to (here) have already been changed (new nature + the Holy Spirit).

Not sure what you mean,
if your referring to this forum then you are mistaken of the size of the audience and their eternal state, have you noticed the views compared to the amount of replys?
Do you seriously think you are teaching the Born agains something they are not already aware of, with a doctrine focused on loss of salvation contrary to what the Gospel proclaims.
Its already been pointed out to you by the "BAC's" here that unrepentant Christians were never Christians to begin with, so who are you enlightening?

The entire Bible is full of warnings ... and you call me a scare-monger?

Not you per say, more the types who revel in fire and brimstone doctrine. (but if the cap fits)
However the Bible is full of guidance and encouragement too, not just warnings as I pointed out in Paul's discourse in Colossians 3:1-6.
Such verses you brush off because they neglect to serve your bias.
Paul saw the necessity of severe warnings tempered with encouragement, are you greater then Paul?

Meanwhile, everyone knows the gospel means "good news",

Nope according to you it means "Another law you cant possibly hope to satisfy"

but the churches don't warn anyone.

Not true, I have listened to and witnessed many many sermons both here and in the US which deal with such subjects directly, especially Pentecostal.
However Just because these sermons dont end without first encouraging us to look to Jesus doesn't mean that these warnings are never delt with.
Thats a very broad and unfounded generalization.

You once accused me of being effeminate in my understanding, and so I think this is where you alienate yourself from teachings that encourage as well as warn.

Why dont you take what we say as an encouraging critique instead of a personal attack, your not wrong with the warnings, but the way you perceive the gospel has not matured, nor has anybody's.


Fear has never converted it has only isolated.

 

[Nomad]

1Jn 2:19 -- one isolated situation

That's not a refutation at all. John's statement about those who fell away only makes sense in the light of the NT teaching on the perseverance of the saints. Jesus teaches very clearly that he would lose none that the Father had given him. This means that those who "fall away" were never saved in the first place and John's statement in 1 John 2:19 is proven to be true and universal.

Mat 7:23 -- Jesus never knew (approved of) them ONLY because they did NOT do the will of Father God

The Greek word for "knew" is "ginosko." Show me one English translation of the NT and/or one Greek lexicon that ever translates "ginosko" as "approved of."

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me ... Do these apply to you?

They apply to all believers.

I noticed that you neglected to address all of the proof that I provided. I'll post them again for your convenience.


Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Note to the backwards M/F:
I've never seen a Canadian spell like this, butski 99% of Americans do!
So again, Nomad, don't feel bad, okay?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[John Zain]

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Man can make a failure out of Phil 2:13 ... he has total free-will ... God didn't create no robots!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Madad wrote,
Paul saw the necessity of severe warnings tempered with encouragement

You're one of the few who will admit that ... I'm getting impressed.
Except, I would have written ...
Paul saw the necessity of severe warnings clouded (somewhat hidden) by many encouragements

Elsewhere I teach on the extreme tactfulness of Paul, but there are NO buyers.
All they see are the encouragements, the good stuff.
Perhaps, they just choose to ignore the warnings!

So you see, I have no need to teach the good stuff ... everyone has that down pat.
The comfy verses are memorized ... they ryhme them off in their sleep.

 

[Madad21]

Man can make a failure out of Phil 2:13 ... he has total free-will ... God didn't create no robots!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Madad wrote,
Paul saw the necessity of severe warnings tempered with encouragement

You're one of the few who will admit that ... I'm getting impressed.
Except, I would have written ...
Paul saw the necessity of severe warnings clouded (somewhat hidden) by many encouragements

Elsewhere I teach on the extreme tactfulness of Paul, but there are NO buyers.
All they see are the encouragements, the good stuff.
Perhaps, they just choose to ignore the warnings!

So you see, I have no need to teach the good stuff ... everyone has that down pat.
The comfy verses are memorized ... they ryhme them off in their sleep.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and James all saw the importance of a well rounded gospel message.
The fullness of the Word in the fullness of Christ. The way the truth and the life.

The Holy Spirit that inspired and spoke through them was far from clouded. (consider Mark 8:24-25)

If people are silly enough to listen to only part of their words then they are not able to see, no amount of fire and brimstone teaching will make them see what they dont want to see.
Its like a nagging wife, any repentance would only be an effort to silence a noisy conscious not for the love of Christ as you and I have.

 

[John Zain]

Madad wrote,
The Holy Spirit that inspired and spoke through them was far from clouded.

Don't you realize that some spiritual Truth was clouded (somewhat hidden) on purpose?

I was talking about Paul, who was trained by the Lord for 17 years in the desert regions
before really beginning his ministry.

Any "clouding" was done on purpose, believe me!

And it had to do with Paul's incredible tactfullness.

 

[Madad21]

Madad wrote,
The Holy Spirit that inspired and spoke through them was far from clouded.

Don't you realize that some spiritual Truth was clouded (somewhat hidden) on purpose?

I was talking about Paul, who was trained by the Lord for 17 years in the desert regions
before really beginning his ministry.

Any "clouding" was done on purpose, believe me!

And it had to do with Paul's incredible tactfullness.

There is no clouding demonstrated in the gospels when it comes to Christs message to us through Pauls epistles to the Churches.
Christ does not warn us and then cloud us with unnecessary encouragement.
Think about Paul in prison, anybody else would be in a depressing negative mind space without hope, but not Paul, through all his pain he still saw fit to encourage his brothers to righteousness despite his very dire circumstances.
He said to live is Christ and to die is gain.
Consider Jesus's message in (Mark 8:18, 24-25)

Also whatever spiritual truth was clouded, the cloudiness would certainly not be in the form of encouragement thats quite a stretch.
Also by saying this, your in a way implying that you are somehow privy to a clearer state of Spiritual enlightenment then that of the supposed clouded mind of Paul one of the biggest authors of the gospels.

 

[John Zain]

Madad,

I'm afraid you need to re-read what I have written ... because you have it all confused.
Truth is ... I'm losing patience with many who are failing to understand simple English.
My wife (an American) says:
Americans aren't educated to pay attention to WORDS, just a rough feel for what is being said.

 

[aspen]

Ok arrogance regarding your superior intellect aside, what is with the full on "jerkness", evangelist? everyone is just too stupid to be dealt with, right? thank God he sent you to give us the real standard........

God loves us: He desires our love: He desires us to love others.....

This is the good news - we can once again become perfect lovers.

Your god sounds like an insurance agent with more clauses than coverage.

 

[Madad21]

Madad,

I'm afraid you need to re-read what I have written ... because you have it all confused.
Truth is ... I'm losing patience with many who are failing to understand simple English.
My wife (an American) says:
Americans aren't educated to pay attention to WORDS, just a rough feel for what is being said.

What has this got to do with anything I have said? :huh:

You make a lot of very broad sweeping statements concerning other Christians and the Churches of today, all of which are unfounded and only your judgement upon them.

So how about getting back to the topic.

Paul wasnt being tactful in order to deliver the truth, every word is as it should be and meant through the Spirit of truth who is life.

Your stance here is deplorable, what purpose could it possibly serve?

Your god sounds like an insurance agent with more clauses than coverage.

Exactly

 

[John Zain]

Paul wasnt being tactful in order to deliver the truth,
every word is as it should be and meant through the Spirit of truth who is life.

Your stance here is deplorable, what purpose could it possibly serve?

Foist of oil, thou has lost 10,000 reputation points for quoting the Aspen!

Second of oil, it appears you have no idea what Paul was really saying in some of his passages!

Third of oil, ONE of the purposes for Paul being so tactful (and somewhat hiding spiritual Truth) was:
The Lord did not want some believers to be discouraged by spiritual demands that they were not ready for yet.
Seems obvious to me.

 

[Madad21]

.