A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

[lforrest]

Like you, I don't hold to Calvin and Arminianism, and like you, I wish to receive the full council of God.
So, to which theology are you leaning towards?
This is no trick question, I really want to know.

I do not see many of the apparent contradictions between predestination and free will when considered from what I imagine a timeless perspective.

I do match up more closely with reformed theology.

 

[Johann]

I do not see many of the apparent contradictions between predestination and free will when considered from what I imagine a timeless perspective.

I "sense" you and I need to build up a trust factor.
Would you say Reformed theology is the same as Calvinism?

If you feel led, give this a listen, and come back to me, so that we can discuss predestination/elect/free will etc.

I really want to hear more from you.
Shalom
J.

 

[lforrest]

I "sense" you and I need to build up a trust factor.
Would you say Reformed theology is the same as Calvinism?

If you feel led, give this a listen, and come back to me, so that we can discuss predestination/elect/free will etc.

I really want to hear more from you.
Shalom
J.

Ok, I'll get back to you may take some time. You may have missed my edit of my post as I forgot to answer your question.

 

[Johann]

Ok, I'll get back to you may take some time. You may have missed my edit of my post as I forgot to answer your question.

God bless brother.
Yes, I have missed the edit.
J.

 

[David in NJ]

For In. the chrisma is the -+ Spirit of Truth who gives Christians the power of
understanding, so that they do not need any other teacher (1 In. 2:27). Through
their anointing they have received the Spirit, who brings to mind what Jesus has
said (cf. In. 14:26; 15:26; 16:13 f.).

The anointing of the Spirit is the power which
works in the believer through the divine authoritative word. In following and
abiding in Jesus (1 In. 2: 28) and through the power of the preached word as it
works in the church, the believer is given a share in the Messianic anointing of
Jesus. He receives the Holy Spirit, who is able to discern the spirits (1 In. 4: 1 ff.;
2 :18).

Amen
Beautiful and Life to our spirit/soul

 

[rwb]

In post 22 you posted:
"believing in Christ is the work of God"

What do you mean that believing "is the work of God"? Are you suggesting man is unable to believe therefore God must do the work of believing for man?

---------------------------------------

Again, if believeth and is baptized means believe only then heareth and believeth must mean hear only.

What I posted there was a verse from Scripture::

John 6:29 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[rwb]

The Holy Spirit baptism is essential for salvation. Romans 8:9

Rather water baptism specifically is essential as well, I can not prove. In my opinion it serves as a explicit act which is a public confession of our faith. But we do see the disciples performing water baptism, so it would be wise to follow their example.

Just as circumcision was a sign given to the Jews of old to show they were separate from the rest of the world, i.e. they were the Church in the wilderness: Acts 7:38 (KJV) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Circumcision the sign given them by God to identify the nation as His special people. So too under the New Covenant in Christ, God has given His Church the sign of water baptism which shows His people are separate from the rest of the world, i.e. the Church of Christ.

The significance of coming under the sign as both Old Covenant Church, and New Covenant Church is that God gave His Church of Old His oracles through His prophets, and the Law to teach them of their need for Christ: Romans 3:1-2 (KJV) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. So too Christ has given gifts to His Church also: Ephesians 4:11-13 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Coming under the sign of water baptism is to come under instructions, making disciples of all who are baptized, so they may know how to live according to the will of God. Baptism is what sets the Church apart as the one body of Christ. If we do not come under the sign, then are we really members with Christ of His One Body?

These sign gifts are not for the world, but for the Church as She exists on this earth. Understanding that there will always be among believers those whose faith never goes beyond mental assenting without experiencing a true change of heart through His Spirit. Because receiving the sign gift through water does not save us. Only the supernatural baptism of the Holy Spirit through Christ will save.

 

[rwb]

i would agree with you on water baptism being essential for our obedience unto Christ as a public witness and outward expression of His Salvation that is 'ALL READY & PRESENT' within the Believer.

i find no Scriptural reference that water baptism washes away the "sins of the world"

Peace and know that i water baptise Believers in Christ

It gets a little bit muddled. Because many receive the sign gift of water baptism who have never had saving faith. So saying that water baptism is an outward sign of an inward change may be true, but that is not always the case. So rather than say it is an outward expression of salvation, I believe it is better to say it is an outward obedience for belonging to the Church as She exists on earth. Time will tell whether or not those who are baptized have also been baptized through the Holy Spirit and possess everlasting life through Christ.

 

[rwb]

I would also like to mention that there is a certain joy that is felt at the hearing of believers being baptized. And while the heart is deceitful I do take it as a sort of unreliable witness.

I find great joy when one who professes faith in Christ desires to belong to the One body of Christ through water baptism. We have no ability to see the heart, so we simply baptize them into the One body of Christ as new disciples, and through instruction we pray their lives will demonstrate a love for Christ and willingness to be obedient to Him.

 

[David in NJ]

It gets a little bit muddled. Because many receive the sign gift of water baptism who have never had saving faith. So saying that water baptism is an outward sign of an inward change may be true, but that is not always the case. So rather than say it is an outward expression of salvation, I believe it is better to say it is an outward obedience for belonging to the Church as She exists on earth. Time will tell whether or not those who are baptized have also been baptized through the Holy Spirit and possess everlasting life through Christ.

Thank you for your reply, which is correct.
But now we are speaking of two very different aspects going in opposite directions.

My statement was based on the Pure Form = God's Will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven

You correctly stated that men, with their religion, will copy the Pure outwardly but not have the Pure inside.

The outward 'church' on earth is not the True Church that is in Heaven.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What I posted there was a verse from Scripture::

John 6:29 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Yes, that is what Jn 6:29 says. My question to you is what do you think "work of God" means? Does it man God does the work of believing while man is idle?

 

[Johann]

It gets a little bit muddled. Because many receive the sign gift of water baptism who have never had saving faith. So saying that water baptism is an outward sign of an inward change may be true, but that is not always the case. So rather than say it is an outward expression of salvation, I believe it is better to say it is an outward obedience for belonging to the Church as She exists on earth. Time will tell whether or not those who are baptized have also been baptized through the Holy Spirit and possess everlasting life through Christ.

Passing through the sea marked a decisive break from Israel’s former subjection to Pharaoh, just as
baptism is a sign of breaking from sin’s mastery and beginning to live to God (Rom. 6:3–4,11). But
fear and faith can be superficial and temporary, especially when based on outward signs (John 2:23
—3:3; 1 Cor. 10:1–11). Do not rely on outward signs and seals, but rest your hope upon Christ and
a living union with Him.
God also established the feasts to memorialize His works for Israel. God desires that we remember
His works. “Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits” (Ps. 103:2). “I meditate on
all thy works” (Ps. 143:5). Remembering God’s works reminded Israel to remember His law (Deut.
8:11). God would have us remember His great work when Christ fulfilled the law through His
sacrifice at Calvary. God has given us two (and only two) visible means of remembering Christ’s
work: baptism and the Lord’s Supper.


We must never attribute efficacy to the means themselves and the bare use of them. The water of
baptism cannot wash away sins. The bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper are not and cannot become
the life-giving flesh and blood of Christ. A man’s Christianity is not to be measured by the number of
sermons he has heard or prayers he has recited. It is possible to do all the right things without a
believing heart: “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Rom. 14:23). Even so, those who believe that God
has instituted these means of grace make diligent use of them.
Reformation heritage KJV study bible.

I am searching for truth, this here Bible I found, and I am going to quote from it, since I am being edified, and pray you will too.

Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

Yes, that is what Jn 6:29 says. My question to you is what do you think "work of God" means? Does it man God does the work of believing while man is idle?

6:28–29 work the works of God. If men are to serve God, their first calling is to believe in Christ as
Savior.

Cut the brother some slack, be patient, maybe he worded it wrong, don't be harsh on him.
J.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

neither side has any proof that he was or was not baptized prior too .
But we do have the PROOF of what SAVED HIM . LORD REMEMBER ME . HIS FAITH IN JESUS .
WE have THAT PROOF my friend . FAITH IN JESUS saves . And if its true faith one is a hearer and a doer .
As for that man , HE was unable to come back down . but either way the proof IS that it is FAITH in CHRIST that saved HIM .

In post #25 you posted:
"The thief on the cross was saved for his faith was in Christ .
Had he been able to come down from the cross he would have then also been baptized .
But as we see he never was "

You posted the thief "never was" baptized.

As you point out, no side has any proof if the thief was baptized or not so the thief cannot ever be used as proof that water baptism is not necessary for salvation because;

1) it is assumed he was not baptized

2) he is not an example of NT salvation (Heb 9:16-17) for he lived and died before the NT gospel (Mk 16:16 cf Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48) came into effect so he was not accountable to Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38 as we today are. Under the NT one must (1) believe that God 'hath raised" Christ from the dead (Rom 10:9-10) and (2) be baptized into the death of Christ (Rom 6:3-6) before walking in newness of life. Neither of these two NT requires could be fulfilled by the thief for Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected. It therefore is impossible for the thief to be an example of how men today are saved under the NT gospel of Christ.

3) Matt 9:6 when Christ was "on earth" He had been given the authority to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago He left behind His NT gospel as His authority on earth and it command water baptism. Hence no one today can be saved unless one can travelback in time 2000 years BEFORE the NT came into effect and have Christ personally forgive thier sins.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest , you obviously are not hearing what i am saying .
IF one truly BELIEVES then one would TRULY BE A DOER .
Let that sink in a bit .

I agree that a hearer of Christ must do what CHrist. Christ said one must believe (Jn 3:16) repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matt 10:32-33 and be water baptized (Mk 16:16) therefore a hearer MUST be water baptized.

My point is about the thief. The thief is not an example of NT salvation and how men today are saved under the NT gospel of Christ.

 

[Johann]

In post #25 you posted:
"The thief on the cross was saved for his faith was in Christ .
Had he been able to come down from the cross he would have then also been baptized .
But as we see he never was "

You posted the thief "never was" baptized.

As you point out, no side has any proof if the thief was baptized or not so the thief cannot ever be used a proof that water baptism is not necessary for;

1) it is assumed he was not baptized

2) he is not an example of NT salvation (Heb 9:16-17) for he lived and died before the NT gospel (Mk 16:16 cf Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48) came into effect so he was not accountable to Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38 as we today are. Under the NT one must (1) believe that God 'hath raised" Christ from the dead (Rom 10:9-10) and (2) be baptized into the death of Christ (Rom 6:3-6) before walking in newness of life. Neither of these two NT requires could be fulfilled by the thief for Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected. It therefore is impossible for the thief to be an example of how men today are saved under the NT gospel of Christ.

3) Matt 9:6 when Christ was "on earth" He had been given the authority to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago He left behind His NT gospel as His authority on earth and it command water baptism. Hence no one today can be saved unless one can travelback in time 2000 years BEFORE the NT came into effect and have Christ personally forgive thier sins.

I'm just thinking...Moses, David, Abraham.....were they saved in a biblical sense, since with YHVH nothing is impossible?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm just thinking...Moses, David, Abraham.....were they saved in a biblical sense, since with YHVH nothing is impossible?

They lived under the various OT laws and will be judged by that OT law they lived under. Salvation under the OT had different requirements than the NT gospel of Christ that we today who live under. The NT gospel of Christ requires belief repentance cofession and baptism for remission of sins (Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3; Mt 10:32-33; Mk 16:16) which was not available to them under the OT law.

 

[Johann]

I agree that a hearer of Christ must do what CHrist. Christ said one must believe (Jn 3:16) repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matt 10:32-33 and be water baptized (Mk 16:16) therefore a hearer MUST be water baptized.

My point is about the thief. The thief is not an example of NT salvation and how men today are saved under the NT gospel of Christ.

They lived under the various OT laws and will be judged by that OT law they lived under. Salvation under the OT had different requirements than the NT gospel of Christ that we today who live under. The NT gospel of Christ requires belief repentance cofession and baptism for remission of sins (Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3; Mt 10:32-33; Mk 16:16) which was not available to them under the OT law.

So they were not "saved?"
Interesting.

 

[Johann]

They lived under the various OT laws and will be judged by that OT law they lived under. Salvation under the OT had different requirements than the NT gospel of Christ that we today who live under. The NT gospel of Christ requires belief repentance cofession and baptism for remission of sins (Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3; Mt 10:32-33; Mk 16:16) which was not available to them under the OT law.

You mean like..."Dispensationalism?"
The saints of the Old Covenant will be judged BY the Old Covenant?


Deu_33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Deu_33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

1Sa_2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

2Ch_6:41 Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

Job_5:1 Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?

Job_15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Psa_16:3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

Psa_30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

Psa_31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Psa_34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Psa_37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Saints...in the Old Covenant...so, what is a saint?

 

[rwb]

Yes, that is what Jn 6:29 says. My question to you is what do you think "work of God" means? Does it man God does the work of believing while man is idle?

I believe God through His Spirit works through the Gospel, changing hearts and making us willing to believe. Apart from the working of the Spirit through the Gospel all mankind is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and has no desire for Christ.