abomination of desolation

[Stranger]

Jeremiah 44:21-22
[21] The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them, and came it not into his mind? [22] So that the Lord could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.


I am not even going to attempt to touch on the abomination of desolation. Or the son of prediction which, possibly, Daniel shows us in bodily form. What I do want to touch on is the "abomination" part. Here are a few questions I have. They may be crazy questions but they are serious ones I am hoping those with more understanding can clarify.


Mark 13:2
[2] And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 19:44-46
[44] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. [45] And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; [46] Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

God dwells in a house made without hands now. The stones were overturned. Why would God return to a temple made WITH hands and consider it Holy ground therefore what is done within that temple be an abomination to God? Why turn the physical stones over and tear a physical house down and raise it again in three days, Spiritual? Why would God consider anything done in a man-made structure against Him now that He tore down and crucified the flesh. Why would He call it an abomination, a sacrifice in a house without His anointing or blessing? I get the verses about, he will be taken out of the way before that wickedness be revealed...but can someone explain to me why God would then return to a temple made with hands and fill it, making it Holy once again?

Matthew 27:39-40 KJV
[39] And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, [40] And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.


Mark 13:14
[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Mark 3:28-29 KJV
[28] Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Which makes those who reject the Spirit of God: antichrist??? Sons of disobedience.

Last question: the remnant, would they not return to be drawn to Christ?
Not a man made structure or a physical Israel...but rather gathered to the Spiritual Israel? They have seen Jesus, do they not now have to "see" Christ? Why would God return to the Old covenant and the flesh? I get the seventy weeks of Daniel (this I have been told) but when the Jews open their eyes to the truth: that they crucified their King. Will they not be drawn to Christ? Not a building or a physical place...but Spirit.

John 12:32
[32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

It appears you are seeing spirit as good and better and flesh as evil or less than. There is plenty of evil in the spirit realm. And the flesh is weak now due to the fall. satan is a spiritual being and he fell also.

That God has created a Temple in the Heaven can be seen in (Heb. 9:11-12). "...Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands,...by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,....." Does this not indicate a structure in Heaven where God's presence is known? And when Scripture speaks of the throne of God, and the throne of Jesus Christ, do you not see them as real thrones. (Rev. 7:15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." Se also, (Rev. 11:19), (Rev. 14:17), (15:5), (16:17).

In other words, God's work in our salvation, in making us a temple of His Spirit, does not change things in Heaven. The Heavenly Temple and thrones will remain. And with God's creation of the earth and His purpose for it, it is important to have a temple on earth as it is in heaven. "Thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Thus the tabernacle and temple are built exactly to represent the one in Heaven. (Heb.8:5) "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount." See also, (Ex. 25:8-9), (25:40), (26:30).

God's purpose to establish His kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven has always had to do with Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple. Messiah is ruling in Jerusalem, and Israel serves as a priestly nation to the world. This has never yet been accomplished. You see it being set up in the book of Revelation. (Rev. 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

We the Church at this present time are the temple of God on earth. But our presence one day will be removed and once again there is the need of the Temple to be built.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

He took my place and became His definition of: an abomination.

i don't disagree here, but i do have to say that this concept should be reflected upon in the light of other Scripture, also. For it is still true that "no Son of Man may die for another's sin; the soul that sins will die." even though these two do not seem to go together at all, right. Christ "became" sin for us, all of us, everyone, but all obv do not realize heaven, at least not right now, right.

So see how we got Fundies condemning Uni's, right, but the same principle will apply to the Fundie--or whatever label--who does not follow, and merely worships, imo. And the opposite is also true, imo; anyone who follows is accepted, regardless of what they call themselves, or what they are called

 

[bbyrd009]

He took my place and became His definition of: an abomination.

notice how we could have a discussion about "scapegoats" from this same jumping-off point?

 

[bbyrd009]

He brought me into His house.

Deuteronomy 23:18
[18] Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

HE did that one too.

hmm, i would have to disagree, sort of anyway, bc if/when you are brought in--or omitted for that matter--it will always be because of your following, or lack of it. If you confess when you are wrong, you are saved, and if you don't you are not. If you overlook a matter in someone else and forgive them anyway, even though they do not confess, you are saved, and if you do not, you are not. Iow you are brought in bc you are perfect through following Christ, not perfect because of Jesus.

There is no "thank you, Jesus, for doing everything that i need to do in order for me to be saved,"
near as i can see anyway, that is tripe imo, as Fundies demonstrate i guess

Now would be the time to bring up the serpent on a pole.

ha, ya, exactly

 

[bbyrd009]

he shall see his seed

by his knowledge

clear directions to not be "worshipping" Jesus imo. Seeds are only after their kind, right, and knowledge is not imparted at profession, no one ever absorbed any knowledge by talking or making proclamations

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It appears you are seeing spirit as good and better and flesh as evil or less than. There is plenty of evil in the spirit realm. And the flesh is weak now due to the fall. satan is a spiritual being and he fell also.

That God has created a Temple in the Heaven can be seen in (Heb. 9:11-12). "...Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands,...by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,....." Does this not indicate a structure in Heaven where God's presence is known? And when Scripture speaks of the throne of God, and the throne of Jesus Christ, do you not see them as real thrones. (Rev. 7:15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." Se also, (Rev. 11:19), (Rev. 14:17), (15:5), (16:17).

In other words, God's work in our salvation, in making us a temple of His Spirit, does not change things in Heaven. The Heavenly Temple and thrones will remain. And with God's creation of the earth and His purpose for it, it is important to have a temple on earth as it is in heaven. "Thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Thus the tabernacle and temple are built exactly to represent the one in Heaven. (Heb.8:5) "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount." See also, (Ex. 25:8-9), (25:40), (26:30).

God's purpose to establish His kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven has always had to do with Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple. Messiah is ruling in Jerusalem, and Israel serves as a priestly nation to the world. This has never yet been accomplished. You see it being set up in the book of Revelation. (Rev. 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

We the Church at this present time are the temple of God on earth. But our presence one day will be removed and once again there is the need of the Temple to be built.

Stranger

First, thank you for taking the time to respond. In no way do I want to disrespect you by my questions, and most of all I do not want to disrespect God. He knows my heart though so I can not hide what is already there. I don't see the flesh as evil; I see the flesh as subdued and brought under submission to God. What He has pronounce clean, I can not say that it is not. I see a marriage of flesh and Spirit: both glorified. Pure light(truth) without shadows. I see man's work and man's glorying and man's attempt to save himself: laid desolate. Cut off. Ended.

Who makes desolate? I only know of One with the power to make desolate, and there is only One reason He makes desolate which is to put all things under the Lord's feet. All enemies. Even death. All throughout the OT God says over and over again: I will do it. I will do it. I will accomplish it. If anyone researches "desolate" they will see. God does it. That is why JW bother me so much because for them to say God did not come in a vessel of flesh as Jesus Christ to accomplish what man could not do on his own, is to make God a liar. It had to be God. He will not share His glory with any other.

Zechariah 11:16
For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

He also told Pharaoh: I raised you for this reason. And Judas also: I have kept all, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

True or false? (Isaiah 41: 24) Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

True or false was the nail removed from the sure place? was He cut down? Did He fall? (Isaiah 22:21-25)
Did He make His grave with the wicked? (Isaiah 53: 7-11)
"Because He did had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth"
"He shall see the travail of His soul and be satisfied."

Zechariah 12:9-10
[9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. [10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

How did He cut off the idols in the land?
Think of the Serpent raised on a pole in the wilderness? What was He foreshadowing?

God made desolate man's glorying in their religion. He wiped man's work and brought it all down to the ground. Including the temple made with hands. All work is done by the Spirit, not the flesh. That is the only work acceptable to God; work of the Spirit. So, you believe God is going to once again rebuild a temple made with hands, sanctify it, and then pronounce it holy ground so that when the antichrist stands in this man-made temple and says He is God, that God will consider it an abomination? The sacrifice is going to reinstated and man's work? and God will bless this man-made temple and fill it with His glory? Cause He will dwell once again in a house made with Hands, because we (the body) have been raptured out? I am not saying you are wrong. I want to understand.

I don't know, Stranger. I only know of one abominable act: God dying in my place and being laid in the grave with the wicked. This one single act in the manifestation of time brought all mans work and glory to desolation. God did it by His own hand.

Zechariah 11: 16
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

 

[Stranger]

First, thank you for taking the time to respond. In no way do I want to disrespect you by my questions, and most of all I do not want to disrespect God. He knows my heart though so I can not hide what is already there. I don't see the flesh as evil; I see the flesh as subdued and brought under submission to God. What He has pronounce clean, I can not say that it is not. I see a marriage of flesh and Spirit: both glorified. Pure light(truth) without shadows. I see man's work and man's glorying and man's attempt to save himself: laid desolate. Cut off. Ended.

Who makes desolate? I only know of One with the power to make desolate, and there is only One reason He makes desolate which is to put all things under the Lord's feet. All enemies. Even death. All throughout the OT God says over and over again: I will do it. I will do it. I will accomplish it. If anyone researches "desolate" they will see. God does it. That is why JW bother me so much because for them to say God did not come in a vessel of flesh as Jesus Christ to accomplish what man could not do on his own, is to make God a liar. It had to be God. He will not share His glory with any other.

Zechariah 11:16
For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

He also told Pharaoh: I raised you for this reason. And Judas also: I have kept all, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

True or false? (Isaiah 41: 24) Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

True or false was the nail removed from the sure place? was He cut down? Did He fall? (Isaiah 22:21-25)
Did He make His grave with the wicked? (Isaiah 53: 7-11)
"Because He did had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth"
"He shall see the travail of His soul and be satisfied."

Zechariah 12:9-10
[9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. [10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

How did He cut off the idols in the land?
Think of the Serpent raised on a pole in the wilderness? What was He foreshadowing?

God made desolate man's glorying in their religion. He wiped man's work and brought it all down to the ground. Including the temple made with hands. All work is done by the Spirit, not the flesh. That is the only work acceptable to God; work of the Spirit. So, you believe God is going to once again rebuild a temple made with hands, sanctify it, and then pronounce it holy ground so that when the antichrist stands in this man-made temple and says He is God, that God will consider it an abomination? The sacrifice is going to reinstated and man's work? and God will bless this man-made temple and fill it with His glory? Cause He will dwell once again in a house made with Hands, because we (the body) have been raptured out? I am not saying you are wrong. I want to understand.

I don't know, Stranger. I only know of one abominable act: God dying in my place and being laid in the grave with the wicked. This one single act in the manifestation of time brought all mans work and glory to desolation. God did it by His own hand.

Zechariah 11: 16
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Yes, I believe the temple will be rebuilt during the first 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation. And, that there will be another temple, the Millennial temple, built after the tribulation, the plans of which are found in (Ez.40-47).

I disagree that Christ's act was an abominable act. That it was terrible in nature, yes, but not an abomination. To be an abomination it must be an abomination to God.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, I believe the temple will be rebuilt during the first 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation. And, that there will be another temple, the Millennial temple, built after the tribulation, the plans of which are found in (Ez.40-47).

I disagree that Christ's act was an abominable act. That it was terrible in nature, yes, but not an abomination. To be an abomination it must be an abomination to God.

Stranger

The greatest accomplishment yes. But still, God's wrath was poured out on Him. Wrath for all man's sin throughout history. He drank of the cup and bore all the curses. Not guilty, but pronounced guilty of it all. Therefore crucifying the flesh once and for all.


Many with a God-complex claim to be God. Many actually believe it to be true. Many kill and offer to strange gods. There are many antichrist. What makes him different?

 

[DPMartin]

Jeremiah 44:21-22
[21] The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them, and came it not into his mind? [22] So that the Lord could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.


I am not even going to attempt to touch on the abomination of desolation. Or the son of prediction which, possibly, Daniel shows us in bodily form. What I do want to touch on is the "abomination" part. Here are a few questions I have. They may be crazy questions but they are serious ones I am hoping those with more understanding can clarify.


Mark 13:2
[2] And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 19:44-46
[44] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. [45] And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; [46] Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

God dwells in a house made without hands now. The stones were overturned. Why would God return to a temple made WITH hands and consider it Holy ground therefore what is done within that temple be an abomination to God? Why turn the physical stones over and tear a physical house down and raise it again in three days, Spiritual? Why would God consider anything done in a man-made structure against Him now that He tore down and crucified the flesh. Why would He call it an abomination, a sacrifice in a house without His anointing or blessing? I get the verses about, he will be taken out of the way before that wickedness be revealed...but can someone explain to me why God would then return to a temple made with hands and fill it, making it Holy once again?

Matthew 27:39-40 KJV
[39] And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, [40] And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.


Mark 13:14
[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Mark 3:28-29 KJV
[28] Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Which makes those who reject the Spirit of God: antichrist??? Sons of disobedience.

Last question: the remnant, would they not return to be drawn to Christ?
Not a man made structure or a physical Israel...but rather gathered to the Spiritual Israel? They have seen Jesus, do they not now have to "see" Christ? Why would God return to the Old covenant and the flesh? I get the seventy weeks of Daniel (this I have been told) but when the Jews open their eyes to the truth: that they crucified their King. Will they not be drawn to Christ? Not a building or a physical place...but Spirit.

John 12:32
[32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

the site member to ask on this one would be "truth" he has spend a few years studying as a Hebrew would on such, hence there would be a good chance he could give you just what is meant by "abomination of desolation" and then go from there as to what it would mean in the future of Israel.

as far as the non-secular population in Israel they do expect the temple to be rebuilt and the items associated to the temple to be restored to it. its been said that they have everything ready for such. even the corner stone.

the reestablishment of Israel is a sigh of the times as far as the closing of the day of the gentiles. its a matter of how much longer things will take to finish out what is written and whether we are here to witness and or experience it or not.

hence all the speculation you see and hear.

 

[Stranger]

The greatest accomplishment yes. But still, God's wrath was poured out on Him. Wrath for all man's sin throughout history. He drank of the cup and bore all the curses. Not guilty, but pronounced guilty of it all. Therefore crucifying the flesh once and for all.


Many with a God-complex claim to be God. Many actually believe it to be true. Many kill and offer to strange gods. There are many antichrist. What makes him different?

Of course there are many who are anti-christian. What makes 'the' anti-christ different is he is the one personification of all that is anti-christ. He is Satans answer to the real Christ. As Jesus is the God/Man, the anti-christ is the satan/man. He is the one prophecied of.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

the site member to ask on this one would be "truth" he has spend a few years studying as a Hebrew would on such, hence there would be a good chance he could give you just what is meant by "abomination of desolation" and then go from there as to what it would mean in the future of Israel.

as far as the non-secular population in Israel they do expect the temple to be rebuilt and the items associated to the temple to be restored to it. its been said that they have everything ready for such. even the corner stone.

the reestablishment of Israel is a sigh of the times as far as the closing of the day of the gentiles. its a matter of how much longer things will take to finish out what is written and whether we are here to witness and or experience it or not.

hence all the speculation you see and hear.

I really do need to ask Truth.

"non-secular population" who would that be? Jews that believe and accept Christ as the Messiah? Or are they still expecting their Messiah? If they believe in the risen Christ, then will they not be raptured out when God removes His Spirit? As part of the body, rather than one to go through the tribulation?

If they do not believe in the risen Christ, then are they not still blind? If they are still blind then what makes us want to follow and believe what they say is going to take place concerning the endtimes? Do they (those assuming to see the tribulation) get their knowledge on rebuilding the temple from the Spirit? If so, then they are no longer blind.

 

[Helen]

I disagree that Christ's act was an abominable act. That it was terrible in nature, yes, but not an abomination. To be an abomination it must be an abomination to God.

Stranger

If we agree that Jesus took it all..and became all that we were to God.
Then have have to agree that The bronze serpent on the pole is the clearest type of the saving work of Jesus at Calvary. ✟
God Himself commanded Moses to make the brazen serpent ..knowing that the serpent was a type of the full abomination of sin. They looked , and lived, and did not die of the serpent bite's that they had received, and we too look at Jesus the work of the cross, believe in the power of His death, and do not die from the Adamic bite we inherited.

.........H

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Just noticed the "me".
And yet it is debated.

Zechariah 12:9-10
[9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. [10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

[Stranger]

If we agree that Jesus took it all..and became all that we were to God.
Then have have to agree that The bronze serpent on the pole is the clearest type of the saving work of Jesus at Calvary. ✟
God Himself commanded Moses to make the brazen serpent ..knowing that the serpent was a type of the full abomination of sin. They looked , and lived, and did not die of the serpent bite's that they had received, and we too look at Jesus the work of the cross, believe in the power of His death, and do not die from the Adamic bite we inherited.

.........H

I agree with what you say. I just don't agree that Christ's act of sacrifice was an abomination.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Of course there are many who are anti-christian. What makes 'the' anti-christ different is he is the one personification of all that is anti-christ. He is Satans answer to the real Christ. As Jesus is the God/Man, the anti-christ is the satan/man. He is the one prophecied of.

Stranger

Stranger,

Don't misunderstand me, please. I believe Christ is yet to be revealed, along with us(the sons of God manifested). So, that man of sin will also be revealed. But I disagree that it will be one. There are only two minds we can have: a carnal mind which is an enemy of God, or the mind of Christ. The carnal mind is "antichrist". Antichrist is the number of man (man without God).

I was an antichrist until Christ rose from the grave and restored relationship with God, and God gave me a new heart(mind) that is no longer at opposition with Christ. You may so no, that I was always good and a child of God but scripture says otherwise: first: I was not "born of God" until conception took place. I can't tell you the date that happened. Second:

Romans 3:10-18
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: [14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [15] Their feet are swift to shed blood: [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways: [17] And the way of peace have they not known: [18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.

See, that was me before God.
So, He became an abomination in my place...because I was an abomination. And to be honest, I do not think it is in any way against God for me to acknowledge the magnitude of His sacrifice so that I may be washed clean. I have no hesitation in saying He died as an abomination: cut off in my place.

If you will look at the idol image in the OT; God tells us the kingdoms that rise. These all contain antichrist over the span of history. It is not one moment, but a layout. GOd has shown us the son of perdition, even painted us a picture. They(these kingdoms) all operate from "one mind" of carnal flesh.

What did He destroy so that we may have the mind of Christ(spirit). He crucified the flesh.

Revelation 17:13-18
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

We are the number of the beast. 666
Jesus was man and God. Innocent yes, spotless and blemish free yes, but don't forget He was also MAN and pronounced guilty. Do you realize all the blasphemous things He was called or blamed as being as He walked among us. A drunkard. A son of Satan. And on the cross He was condemned and treated as if He was those things. "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:"

14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

For me, I know others would disagree: but I believe the whore is the world which we are supposed to come out of and not be like.

[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

These kingdoms will hate the world and make her desolate. God loved the world and sent His only son. The kingdoms and antichrist and beast all accomplish GODs purpose and will to make her desolate so that all should turn to Him and see Him as the one they Crucified. ALL will be put underneath Him.

[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

As with Judas. He told us plainly Judas was a son of perdition and that Judas was prepared, to furfill the scriptures.

[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-7
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way.


The Son of perdition revealed. Could happen. Just as The Lord and His body will be revealed (the manifestation of the sons of God). Those that have one mind, one head which is Christ.

You could be right about the manifestation of the sons of perdition in the endtimes. But it is many, with one mind: Antichrist.
Notice this image God paints for us Even if we disagree on all else, I am sure this is where we meet:

Daniel 2:34-35,44-45
[34] Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. [35] Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. [45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


I am sorry for such a long response but i didn't want to leave it like that. I don't expect you to agree. I for sure do not want to mislead anyone reading these post.

 

[DPMartin]

I really do need to ask Truth.

"non-secular population" who would that be? Jews that believe and accept Christ as the Messiah? Or are they still expecting their Messiah? If they believe in the risen Christ, then will they not be raptured out when God removes His Spirit? As part of the body, rather than one to go through the tribulation?

If they do not believe in the risen Christ, then are they not still blind? If they are still blind then what makes us want to follow and believe what they say is going to take place concerning the endtimes? Do they (those assuming to see the tribulation) get their knowledge on rebuilding the temple from the Spirit? If so, then they are no longer blind.

Jews still loyal to Judaism or the Torah. the Messianic Jew will not care about the temple other than the time it would mean.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger,

Don't misunderstand me, please. I believe Christ is yet to be revealed, along with us(the sons of God manifested). So, that man of sin will also be revealed. But I disagree that it will be one. There are only two minds we can have: a carnal mind which is an enemy of God, or the mind of Christ. The carnal mind is "antichrist". Antichrist is the number of man (man without God).

I was an antichrist until Christ rose from the grave and restored relationship with God, and God gave me a new heart(mind) that is no longer at opposition with Christ. You may so no, that I was always good and a child of God but scripture says otherwise: first: I was not "born of God" until conception took place. I can't tell you the date that happened. Second:

Romans 3:10-18
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: [14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [15] Their feet are swift to shed blood: [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways: [17] And the way of peace have they not known: [18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.

See, that was me before God.
So, He became an abomination in my place...because I was an abomination. And to be honest, I do not think it is in any way against God for me to acknowledge the magnitude of His sacrifice so that I may be washed clean. I have no hesitation in saying He died as an abomination: cut off in my place.

If you will look at the idol image in the OT; God tells us the kingdoms that rise. These all contain antichrist over the span of history. It is not one moment, but a layout. GOd has shown us the son of perdition, even painted us a picture. They(these kingdoms) all operate from "one mind" of carnal flesh.

What did He destroy so that we may have the mind of Christ(spirit). He crucified the flesh.

Revelation 17:13-18
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

We are the number of the beast. 666
Jesus was man and God. Innocent yes, spotless and blemish free yes, but don't forget He was also MAN and pronounced guilty. Do you realize all the blasphemous things He was called or blamed as being as He walked among us. A drunkard. A son of Satan. And on the cross He was condemned and treated as if He was those things. "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:"

14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

For me, I know others would disagree: but I believe the whore is the world which we are supposed to come out of and not be like.

[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

These kingdoms will hate the world and make her desolate. God loved the world and sent His only son. The kingdoms and antichrist and beast all accomplish GODs purpose and will to make her desolate so that all should turn to Him and see Him as the one they Crucified. ALL will be put underneath Him.

[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

As with Judas. He told us plainly Judas was a son of perdition and that Judas was prepared, to furfill the scriptures.

[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-7
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way.


The Son of perdition revealed. Could happen. Just as The Lord and His body will be revealed (the manifestation of the sons of God). Those that have one mind, one head which is Christ.

You could be right about the manifestation of the sons of perdition in the endtimes. But it is many, with one mind: Antichrist.
Notice this image God paints for us Even if we disagree on all else, I am sure this is where we meet:

Daniel 2:34-35,44-45
[34] Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. [35] Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. [45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


I am sorry for such a long response but i didn't want to leave it like that. I don't expect you to agree. I for sure do not want to mislead anyone reading these post.

That's fine. I don't agree on some things but it is where you are at. I'm sure the Lord takes care of our mistakes. Line upon line, here a little and there a little.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

no Son of Man may die for another's sin; the soul that sins will die."

What do you mean? No son of man. But God can. The Spirit can. The burning bush of thorns showed sin, sin burning from the presence of God yet the bush was not consumed. Same as the men that were bound and went through the fire; was not consumed by the fire but set free by it. The Lord was there.

Consider:

Genesis 38:28-30
[28] And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first. [29] And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez. [30] And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.


Pharez shows us Adam who came out first. Pharez means: rupture or breach. The rupture or breach is sin.

Then Zarah is born which has the scarlet thread. Zarah means "east brightness". Obviously the one with the scarlet thread is Christ.

Crazy thing is the one with the scarlet thread repairs the breach of the other. As the second Adam, did for the first Adam. The repairer of the breach. Isaiah 58:12
[12] And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

The second Adam.
Not the first.

Yes, it happens within us. 2 births. One natural as Adam. The second born Spirit.
This is the only way to not be consumed by the all consuming fire which is God...to be born again.

John 3:5-7
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 15:12-13
[12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

No that born of the first Adam can not lay down his life for his friends. But that born of Spirit(Christ) can.

Sometimes you worry me...do you believe you can be born of Spirit without Christ laying down His life?

 

[bbyrd009]

What do you mean? No son of man.

well, what does Scripture mean, is i guess a better way to reflect on this. brb

 

[bbyrd009]

Sometimes you worry me...do you believe you can be born of Spirit without Christ laying down His life?

do you believe that you can worship Jesus by looking to Him to cover all of your sins, without picking up your cross and following, which is not belief, but work? Lots of ppl do, see, G---- is doing it right now, on another thread. GG proudly asserts her belief in Nehushtan. The Snake on a Pole is, after all, a preincarnate spirit of Christ, right?

fwiw "snakes" back then were not perceived in the way they are today, either, but that is another thread i guess