Abortion ?

[Triumph1300]

We don't like to admit it, but in the case of MANY things, all we can do is say that we really don't know.... no matter how strongly we BELIEVE something.

True, Willie.
And I like to add that God is a Just God.
God always does what is right and good toward all men.

 

[Dcopymope]

twinc ...now you are just being obtuse.
If it makes you feel better...babies go to "the Good Place in God."
Any place with in God is heavenly.
I do agree with you , that no one but God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and His Angels are in Heaven yet. The Day of all Judgements is not passed.

But where ever the dead in Christ are...it is a good place in God.
( I do not believe in soul sleep )

Well unless the transfiguration was nothing more than an optical illusion or something, and unless it can be clearly identified who the 24 elders are in Revelation, I wouldn't exactly conclude that absolutely no one is in heaven.

 

[Enoch111]

I wouldn't exactly conclude that absolutely no one is in heaven.

Indeed Scripture says that EVERYONE who has been saved by grace is in Heaven, starting with Abel (the son of Adam and Eve). Where do people come up with these bizarre notions that there is no Heaven and nobody is in Heaven?

 

[Triumph1300]

Where do people come up with these bizarre notions that there is no Heaven and nobody is in Heaven?

Beats me.

But a large portion of people on this forum believe there's none in heaven and......there's no hell.

 

[Dcopymope]

Indeed Scripture says that EVERYONE who has been saved by grace is in Heaven, starting with Abel (the son of Adam and Eve). Where do people come up with these bizarre notions that there is no Heaven and nobody is in Heaven?

There are lots of bizarre beliefs about heaven, and I think it mainly stems from their assumptions of how heaven being a "spirit" realm relates to this physical plain of existence. Some will claim to know more about what heaven is actually like, and what can and cannot reside in it than what is written in the Bible. It also stems from the assumption that its only through Jesus Christ's Resurrection that we can go to heaven, based on misinterpreted scriptures concerning him being the only way to the Father. Yes he is indeed the only way to the Father, he never said that about heaven itself.

This brings me to another point. Most of them will also claim that God and heaven are synonymous with each other, yet as far as scripture is concerned, heaven is heaven, Father is Father, and Jesus is Jesus. Heaven is never described as some sort of appendage to his being, its only a location he currently resides in. If God wants you in heaven, he will take you, Jesus or no Jesus. They believe that God is all powerful yet will often limit what he can and cannot do based mainly on the conditions present before and after his son rose again, and based on future promised events like his second coming, without any justification in scripture.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Indeed Scripture says that EVERYONE who has been saved by grace is in Heaven, starting with Abel (the son of Adam and Eve). Where do people come up with these bizarre notions that there is no Heaven and nobody is in Heaven?

So somehow despite the fact that the scriptures testify that no one was begotten of the Holy Spirit, begotten to a new nature until following Pentecost, that flesh and blood cannot inhabit the kingdom of Heaven, somehow Abel and many others like him were able to skirt the divine plan and not only be begotten to a new nature, but likewise they were able to achieve this prior to our Lord himself, in whom it is stated that he was the first born of the new creation, that in all things he might have preeminence.

Sorry but it’s these kinds of bizarre notions that really confuse those attempting to understand the truth.

The problem is that to many professed Christians have felled to rightly divide the word of God and as such have felled to understand the two phases of the kingdom, the earthly and the heavenly, they’re constantly attempting to put everyone into heaven even those not spirit begotten.

They have not learned the lesson the Lord was attempting to teach when he stated that “among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist (the last of the great Prophets); but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven (a member of the body of Christ, the Church) is greater than he." (Matt. 11:11)

None could share in the "high calling," nor in any manner be recognized by the Father as members of the house of sons, who died prior to our Lord's death and resurrection,--prior to the giving of the holy spirit of adoption, whereby all the house of sons are "sealed unto the day of redemption (This includes everyone from Abel to John, no exceptions)."--John 1:12; Eph. 4:30.

John's position in the future, therefore, will not be that of a member of the Bride, the Heavenly Kingdom class; but with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets, amongst whom he was one of the chief, he will be privileged to participate as a member of the earthly phase of the Kingdom, and be one of the "princes in all the earth."

Likewise the testimony of the scriptures is that “all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us (the Church, a share in the First Resurrection), that they should not be made perfect (cannot receive their reward, an instantaneous resurrection to human perfection) apart from (or prior to) us (because all subsequent blessings to every other class are to come through the glorified Christ, Head and body complete). Heb 11:39, 40

 

[Harvest 1874]

Beats me.

But a large portion of people on this forum believe there's none in heaven and......there's no hell.

A large portion of people on this forum are not very good bible students.

What happened to waiting until the First resurrection, if as you suggest there are lots of people in heaven right now then you have to admit that the Second Advent has already taken place, that the Lord is even now present and the saints are risen with him.

But I doubt that you are ready to admit that.

 

[Helen]

unless it can be clearly identified who the 24 elders are in Revelation, I wouldn't exactly conclude that absolutely no one is in heaven.

I just say " How can any 'departed' human be in heaven yet...other than Jesus?
'If' anyone is already in the Heaven of Heavens...be it third heaven or whatever...then logic tells me that someone , sometime, has already weighed them in the balance, and pronounced them worthy.
But as no one has been judged yet...because the time is not yet..
Who did they already hear the "Good and faithful servant enter in.."
I do believe in some in between place, a "Paradise" or some lovely "holding-tank"...but I cannot reconcile with what we call heaven.

This is just my view...it is not some doctrine
I just cannot make sense of it any other way.
Obviously, to my grandkids when their grandparents died...We told them that they had " Gone to heaven"...we all do that. But I just mean by that..they are happy somewhere in God..waiting the resurrection like everyone else.

So, how to you reconcile these things?

Helen

 

[Triumph1300]

if as you suggest there are lots of people in heaven right now

I never said such a thing.
Who's post are you referring too?

 

[Triumph1300]

Obviously, to my grandkids when their grandparents died...We told them that they had " Gone to heaven"...we all do that.

Why would you do that if you don't believe it is true?

 

[Triumph1300]

or some lovely "holding-tank"

Sorry, this made me laugh.
(Don't take it as an insult.... ;-) )

 

[Dcopymope]

I just say " How can any 'departed' human be in heaven yet...other than Jesus?
'If' anyone is already in the Heaven of Heavens...be it third heaven or whatever...then logic tells me that someone , sometime, has already weighed them in the balance, and pronounced them worthy.
But as no one has been judged yet...because the time is not yet..
Who did they already hear the "Good and faithful servant enter in.."
I do believe in some in between place, a "Paradise" or some lovely "holding-tank"...but I cannot reconcile with what we call heaven.

This is just my view...it is not some doctrine
I just cannot make sense of it any other way.
Obviously, to my grandkids when their grandparents died...We told them that they had " Gone to heaven"...we all do that. But I just mean by that..they are happy somewhere in God..waiting the resurrection like everyone else.

So, how to you reconcile these things?

Helen

I reconcile it in one simple way, scripture stating that all will judged doesn't nullify Gods sovereignty on the matter. If we are going to believe that he is truly sovereign, then that means he can declare someone worthy of heaven whenever he wants. Who are we to say that Moses and Elijah of all people wasn't worthy? In all likelihood they are the two witnesses standing before him now symbolized as olive tree's. How about Enoch? Like it or not, but some people are more favored, or special in Gods eyes than others.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Ok, so you say no heaven, no hell for aborted babies.
So, what's up with THAT statement.
Can you clarify ??

WHERE do they go according to you?

The same place as the OT Saints that Jesus went to get them or it's another place in Purgatory now.
No one can enter Heaven unless they are true believers of God and do his will.
The Baby's were robed that chance and murdered, so they can not go to Hell.

So you see how can 'we' truly say they go to Heaven or Hell.

Most Christians do not go to Heaven anyway, the narrow way remember it is and not the wide as is preached nowadays, just believe does not cut it, you must abide in Jesus Christ to get into Heaven and he is the one who says who you are and if one says you do not have to abide well that is surely comes across as being of Satan to me.

People who tell others that they are going to Heaven is a joke, like as if one would say oh muggins says he is going to Heaven, so he must be, you know. So where is Jesus in this picture, muggins has taken him out and is telling me what is what and I will say or could say, I believe you muggins, but that not up to me to say, but I do believe that Jesus will have the only say, not you or anyone, all is fine to hope and I hope that all Christians do have that hope and as for baby's, Jesus is the one who is in charge of that, not me or anyone other, all that I am saying is that I am sure they don't go to hell.

Sure I am not going to be the one to say who went to Hell, but I could say that of one that I am sure they did, form my understanding, like one who said to me that he rejected Jesus and embraced Satan's ways and abided in malice to all around him. it makes me sad but I do not say that he went to Hell, but I do think that he did, but that's not up to me to say such it's a fact.

People who say that there is only Heaven and Hell are kidding themselves and I have heard all the jumping around and screaming hate filled rants trying to desperately undermine Purgatory, well Jesus went to get Moses from were.
Did all the Hebrews go to Hell, I do not think so.

 

[Triumph1300]

screaming hate filled rants trying to desperately undermine Purgatory

I see... you believe in purgatory.

 

[Enoch111]

So somehow despite the fact that the scriptures testify that no one was begotten of the Holy Spirit, begotten to a new nature until following Pentecost, that flesh and blood cannot inhabit the kingdom of Heaven, somehow Abel and many others like him were able to skirt the divine plan and not only be begotten to a new nature, but likewise they were able to achieve this prior to our Lord himself, in whom it is stated that he was the first born of the new creation, that in all things he might have preeminence.

Had you taken the time to discover how the OT saints entered Heaven, you would not have wondered about this.

Prior to the resurrection of Christ, all the OT saints were in Sheol/Hades. After the resurrection of Christ, He took them all to Heaven when "He led captivity captive", and perfected them in Heaven. Although we are not told explicitly that they all received the gift of the Holy Spirit, we know implicitly that just as the gift of the Holy Spirit was given to all believers on the day of Pentecost, those in Heaven would also have received the gift of the Spirit and thus rendered "perfect" (complete).

After the resurrection and ascension of Christ all the NT saints entered the presence of Christ in Heaven immediately. The first to do so was Stephen (Acts & & 8) and subsequently Paul says that for the Christian to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So to deny that any saints are in Heaven is to deny Bible truth.

The complete picture is presented to us in Hebrew 12:22-24, which speaks of the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven. Also note that what you quoted from Heb 11 is clarified in Heb 12.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, [THE NT SAINTS] and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made *perfect [Gk teteleiōmenōn = perfected], [THE OT SAINTS]

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

*Strong's Concordance
teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Short Definition: I complete, accomplish, make perfect
Definition: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.

 

[Helen]

Why would you do that if you don't believe it is true?

The same reason that when a new christian gets saved , we don't say to them- " Start reading the bible with the book of Revelation."
We say..."try starting at the gospel of John..."

There is a time and a season for everything....

 

[Triumph1300]

The same reason that when a new christian gets saved , we don't say to them- " Start reading the bible with the book of Revelation."
We say..."try starting at the gospel of John..."

There is a time and a season for everything....

Yes, I can see that.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Why would you do that if you don't believe it is true?

Ministers do this all the time, on Sunday they preach about the resurrection, and on Tuesday when giving a eulogy for some departed member of the congregation they tell the family and friends that he's gone to a better place now that he's with Jesus, this only helps spread more skepticism and disbelief in Christianity around the world.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I never said such a thing.
Who's post are you referring too?

I was quoting your post #44, but its possible I misunderstood, I assumed you were in agreement with Enoch111 when you responded, if I was mistaken please accept my apology.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I just say " How can any 'departed' human be in heaven yet...other than Jesus?
'If' anyone is already in the Heaven of Heavens...be it third heaven or whatever...then logic tells me that someone , sometime, has already weighed them in the balance, and pronounced them worthy.
But as no one has been judged yet...because the time is not yet..
Who did they already hear the "Good and faithful servant enter in.."
I do believe in some in between place, a "Paradise" or some lovely "holding-tank"...but I cannot reconcile with what we call heaven.

This is just my view...it is not some doctrine
I just cannot make sense of it any other way.
Obviously, to my grandkids when their grandparents died...We told them that they had " Gone to heaven"...we all do that. But I just mean by that..they are happy somewhere in God..waiting the resurrection like everyone else.

So, how to you reconcile these things?

Helen

My dear sister, I note from your comment above that you are having difficulty with trying to figure out just precisely where the dead are presently.

You state that you don’t believe the judgement has begun yet, so they can’t be in heaven, so they must be “in some in between place, a "Paradise" or some lovely "holding-tank". Now of course I understand this is merely an opinion as you can’t seem to make any sense of it any other way. Not being able to properly understand the matter has led you to fib a bit when addressing your grandchildren this is understandable. However you yourself need to understand the truth on the matter that you might be grounded, settled so that you are not blown about by all the various teachings on this matter as put forth by the church nominal.

We note that you have stated on several occasions that you don’t believe in “soul-sleep”. This we believe is due to two things, not properly understanding what a “soul” truly consist of, and not properly understanding the state of death. We won’t go into any discussion on these items here as we have already provided a short study on what a soul consist of entitled “What is a Soul?” which please see if you have not already.

Some in the evangelistic churches disparagingly use the term “soul sleepers” for those who believe in death as a sleep, yet both the New and the Old Testaments teach this concept. Out of their own mouths, these professed Christians show their lack of familiarity with what the Scriptures teach on the condition of death.

The Scriptures speak of death as a sleep (Dan 12:2; John 11:11; 1 Thess 4:13- 14) because in death there is no conscious thought (Psa 146:4; Eccl 9:10). But at the resurrection all shall be awakened from the sleep of death.

Now when the reformers proved purgatory to be un-scriptural they should have said, “We do not know where those poor creatures are who we so long supposed were in purgatory.” They should not have felt it incumbent upon themselves to enlarge hell and to take the thousands of millions out of purgatory into it. But, as a matter of fact, they all are in hell; the difference is that it is the hell of the Bible —Sheol: the grave, the pit, the unconscious state of death, and not a place of suffering and torture.

Do not the Scriptures repeatedly tell you that the dead fall asleep? The Apostle Paul writes of those who fell asleep in Christ; and again, of those who “sleep in Jesus;” and again that all would sleep except those saints who would be changed in a moment, at the second coming of Messiah. Do not we read that St. Stephen, stoned to death, fell asleep? Did not Jesus say, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps,” and subsequently explain his meaning saying, “Lazarus is dead!” do we not read that “Abraham slept with his fathers,” and so of the kings and prophets and all, good and bad? Abraham’s fathers, being heathen, none will claim that they sleep in heaven.

Our Catholic friends will not claim that they sleep in purgatory, and surely nobody would claim that they could sleep in eternal torture. Where, then, do they sleep, and for how long?

The Bible answers, ‘They that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.” (Dan 12:2) The Bible tells us that the weeping, sighing and dying of the present time will give place to a glorious morning of better things, the resurrection morning.”

In 1 Thess 4:14 we read:

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.”

“We cannot think that the Apostle refers merely to the Church in this case, for uniformly, in speaking of the resurrection of the dead, he refers both to the Church and the world, the “resurrection of the just and of the unjust.” So in this case he evidently refers both to the Church and the world as, “asleep in Jesus.” The expression will be noted as different from another one of his respecting those who “sleep in Christ.” The latter expression evidently refers to the Church as the glorified members of the Christ. But in speaking of those asleep in Jesus he evidently has reference to the whole world of mankind.

The whole world died in Adam without having a voice in the matter of their birth or trial or condemnation. “Condemnation came upon all because of one man s disobedience.” Likewise justification is to pass upon our entire race through the precious merit of Christ’s sacrifice. The fact that He “died, the just for the unjust,” constitutes His death a satisfaction price for the sins of the whole world.

From this standpoint, therefore, the whole world not only died in Adam but now sleeps or waits unconsciously for a resurrection of the dead through the merit of our Redeemer’s sacrifice. If we believe that Christ died for our sins and laid the foundation thus for His great work of blessing the world of mankind, including the Church, the first fruits, let us believe also that God who began His work will not stop until He shall have brought forth judgment unto victory —until all the redeemed world shall be brought to a knowledge of the Redeemer and of the Heavenly Father and to an opportunity for life everlasting through obedience. The world died in Adam — “in Adam all die.” Jesus is the Redeemer of the world. “Even so all in Christ shall be made alive.”

The message has reached the Church only, as yet, in due time it will reach every member of the race. The Church is already reckoned quickened from the dead by the Holy Spirit, and will shortly be born from the dead in the “First Resurrection.”

The world, therefore, from the divine standpoint, is not dead in Adam now, but merely asleep in Jesus, waiting for the glorious time when, His Kingdom established, He shall call all mankind from the prison house of death, from the tomb, that each may learn to the full of the grace of God in Christ, and have opportunity for attaining life everlasting.

These are the words in which we are to comfort one another —words of hope respecting the resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust—words of sympathy, words of assurance, words that show that God is better than all our fears; that yet in a little while He that shall come will establish His Kingdom —first the Church in glory, and, secondly, Israel and all the families of the earth through them. Everything connected with the divine message is full of hope, full of encouragement, full of blessing, to those in the condition to receive it.” (2H838)